[Vision2020] MSD financial condition
Dale Courtney
dale@courtneys.us
Wed, 26 Mar 2003 20:35:07 -0800
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Arnold,
=20
Take a look over at the current tuition site:
http://www.finaid.uidaho.edu/cost.asp; it has the actual values for =
today.=20
=20
Even if the cost of an undergraduate program at UI were the same as that =
of
MSD, that's still inconceivable. How in the world could an undergraduate
college program be even close to the same costs as a graduate program.=20
But that really begs the question -- how can private schools operate at
25%-50% the cost of government schools and provide a hands-down better
education?=20
=20
Best,
Dale
-----Original Message-----
From: Donovan Arnold [mailto:donovanarnold@hotmail.com]=20
Sent: Wednesday, 26 March, 2003 20:26
To: dale@courtneys.us; vision2020@moscow.com
Subject: RE: [Vision2020] MSD financial condition
Dale,
Your numbers for tuition at UI are a bit off. I paid over $1500 per =
semester
as an undergrad. I pay an additional $341 a semester for medical =
coverage
that I am required to pay to attend the University. This is not counting
books, parking permit, lab fees, and this is considered light fees. =
Other
students pay even more, up $1000 more per semester, depending on their
major, they are called professional fees.
I agree however, that to charge people for HS education is very sad. =
This is
to say that students that can't keep up are to be punished financially. =
When
I attended MHS lots of students were behind in classes because they were
poor and so had to work in addition to school. To charge them would =
require
them to work more, which would cause them to fail again, making the =
whole
idea pointless. I do not think that a High School diploma is worth =
paying
for. It would be cheaper and more productive to get a GED and go to a
community college.
Donovan Arnold
>From: "Dale Courtney"=20
>To:=20
>Subject: RE: [Vision2020] MSD financial condition=20
>Date: Wed, 26 Mar 2003 19:30:23 -0800=20
>=20
>Mike Curley took the time to write and make some very helpful =
suggestions=20
>for my search into the current MSD budget woes.=20
>=20
>I took the time to go to MSD headquarters and get the financial data =
for=20
>last year (2001-2002). FYI, those expenditures were $19,050,079=20
>=20
>I also gathered their enrollment data=20
>(http://www.sd281.k12.id.us/GeneralInformation/files/Enrollment.pdf) =
There=20
>were 2,365 students in 2001-2002.=20
>=20
>If you do the math, the total loaded (fully burdened) costs are $8,055 =
per=20
>student per year.=20
>=20
>I was really amazed by this number! I happen to pay $1,500 for my =
youngest=20
>to attend a private school (which may not be named) in Moscow.=20
>=20
>I was also amazed that out of state tuition at UI is $3,000/year; and=20
>instate (for 2001-2002) was $1,238=20
>(http://www.webs.uidaho.edu/ipb/Excel_files/STD_FEE.xls)=20
>=20
>Can someone please tell me why the elementary/junior high/high school =
fees=20
>are nearly three times as much as for a bachelor's degree program?=20
>=20
>Dale=20
>=20
>-----Original Message-----=20
>From: vision2020-admin@moscow.com [mailto:vision2020-admin@moscow.com] =
On=20
>Behalf Of Mike Curley=20
>Sent: Friday, 07 March, 2003 10:14=20
>To: vision2020@moscow.com=20
>Subject: [Vision2020] MSD financial condition=20
>=20
>=20
>Mr. Courtney:=20
>Just to correct a couple of facts before you share your thoughts about =
the=20
>MSD budget:=20
>1. The 2001 $1.1 M supplemental levy is also "indefinite" as were the=20
>earlier levies.=20
>2. Unless you have seen something that I haven't, there has been no =
request
>for an increase to the levy (at least not yet).=20
>3. Last year, teachers, administrators and all other staff members did=20
>indeed have a pay increase--even in the face of the district having to =
ask=20
>for a levy increase that did NOT include any announced "salary =
component;"=20
>and even in the face of having to reduce staff and consolidate West =
Park
and=20
>Russell elementary schools into a single K- 6 program.=20
>4. You asked the question: "... how you can have a decrease in=20
>2.7%enrollment per year for 7 years (12.9% since 1996) and need to have =
a=20
>bloating budget?" Possible answers to investigate:=20
>a. bad management: failure to suck it up and do what needs to be done =
to=20
>reduce staff where necessary and deal with the wrath of the union, and=20
>parents, that is bound to follow.=20
>b. cost of services increase. The 15% of the budget that gets spent on=20
>curriculum (including books, worksheets, and other instructional
materials),=20
>technology (computers, software, servers, security equipment), and
buildings=20
>(vehicles to plow the snow, desk replacement, roof repairs, etc) =
suffers=20
>from cost of living increases over 7 years. If a vehicle wears out =
today it
>will cost more to replace it with a similar vehicle than it would have =
7=20
>years ago.=20
>c. salary increases: note that salaries and benefits account for about =
85%=20
>of the MSD budget. On a $17M budget, that's $14,620,000. That means of=20
>course that every 1% of salary and benefit increase costs the district=20
>$146,200. Check the salary and benefit increases per year over the 7 =
years=20
>you cited, apply 85% to each year's full budget, and add the annual =
results
>to figure out approximately how much increase is attributable to salary =
and
>benefit increases over the period.=20
>=20
>And, perhaps not "fact," it might nevertheless be useful to acknowledge
some=20
>other considerations. Related to point c. above: of course, if the=20
>teacher/administrator/staff pool had declined over the period, the=20
>salaries-to-total-budget ratio would have been smaller. In fairness, =
one=20
>must note that since all the students are not in the same building and =
not=20
>in the same grade, it is not possible to automatically reduce staff=20
>proportionally with student population decreases. For example: let's =
say=20
>there are 125 classes in session at any given time in MSD. If student=20
>population declines in a perfectly random way (and I'm not suggesting =
it=20
>does), we lose one student per classroom. What teacher do we "cut" next =
>year, and from which building. I am not suggesting that everything was =
done
>over the last 7 years (or any time period for that matter) that could =
have=20
>been to appropriately reduce staff. But it should be clear from the=20
>illustration that the problem is not as simple as it might seem. What =
may=20
>also be clear is that to cut staff and consolidate classes means larger =
>class sizes and more children being moved from their attendance area=20
>elementary buildings each year, and more teachers being reassigned to =
new=20
>buildings. Teachers and parents don't like any of those results, they =
pound
>on the school board not to do that, and so the budget has to be larger =
to=20
>accommodate those desires. So far a majority of the voting community =
has=20
>supported that philosophy--or perhaps they created it. The school board =
is=20
>left in the position of going to voters and saying in effect: "if you =
want=20
>things to continue to run as they have in the past, we need more =
money."
One=20
>can reasonably argue that the board would have abdicated their=20
>responsibilities had they cut staff in the face of voters continued =
funding
>of exisiting staff size. It is not yet clear either: 1. whether =
increased=20
>funding will be necessary to maintain current operations; and, 2. =
whether=20
>voters will continue to increase the levy to meet those needs.=20
>=20
>Mike Curley=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>_____________________________________________________ List services =
made=20
>available by First Step Internet, serving the communities of the =
Palouse=20
>since 1994. http://www.fsr.net mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com=20
>/////////////////////////////////////////////////////=20
>=20
_____ =20
MSN 8 helps ELIMINATE E-MAIL <http://g.msn.com/8HMRENUS/2752> VIRUSES. =
Get
2 months FREE*.=20
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<DIV><SPAN class=3D502113204-27032003><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =
size=3D2>Arnold,</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D502113204-27032003><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =
size=3D2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D502113204-27032003><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =
size=3D2>Take a=20
look over at the current tuition site: <A=20
href=3D"http://www.finaid.uidaho.edu/cost.asp">http://www.finaid.uidaho.e=
du/cost.asp</A>;=20
it has the actual values for today. </FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D502113204-27032003><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =
size=3D2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D502113204-27032003><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =
size=3D2><U>Even if</U> the cost of an undergraduate program at UI were =
the=20
<U>same</U> as that of MSD, that's still inconceivable. How in the =
<U>world</U>=20
could an undergraduate college program be even close to the same costs =
as a=20
graduate program. </FONT></SPAN></DIV><SPAN class=3D502113204-27032003>
<DIV><BR><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2>But that really =
begs the question=20
-- how can private schools operate at 25%-50% the cost of government =
schools and=20
provide a hands-down better education? </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV></SPAN><SPAN class=3D502113204-27032003><FONT face=3DArial =
color=3D#0000ff=20
size=3D2>Best,<BR>Dale</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px =
solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV class=3DOutlookMessageHeader lang=3Den-us dir=3Dltr =
align=3Dleft><FONT=20
face=3DTahoma size=3D2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B> =
Donovan Arnold=20
[mailto:donovanarnold@hotmail.com] <BR><B>Sent:</B> Wednesday, 26 =
March, 2003=20
20:26<BR><B>To:</B> dale@courtneys.us;=20
vision2020@moscow.com<BR><B>Subject:</B> RE: [Vision2020] MSD =
financial=20
condition<BR><BR></FONT></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<P>Dale,</P>
<P>Your numbers for tuition at UI are a bit off. I paid over =
$1500 per=20
semester as an undergrad. I pay an additional $341 a semester for =
medical=20
coverage that I am required to pay to attend the University. This is =
not=20
counting books, parking permit, lab fees, and this is considered =
light=20
fees. Other students pay even more, up $1000 more per semester, =
depending=20
on their major, they are called professional fees.</P></DIV>
<P>I agree however, that to charge people for HS education is very =
sad. This=20
is to say that students that can't keep up are to be punished =
financially.=20
When I attended MHS lots of students were behind in classes because =
they were=20
poor and so had to work in addition to school. To charge them would =
require=20
them to work more, which would cause them to fail again, making the =
whole idea=20
pointless. I do not think that a High School diploma is worth paying =
for. It=20
would be cheaper and more productive to get a GED and go to a =
community=20
college.<BR><BR>Donovan Arnold</P>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>>From: "Dale Courtney" <DALE@COURTNEYS.US>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>>To: <VISION2020@MOSCOW.COM>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>>Subject: RE: [Vision2020] MSD financial condition=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>>Date: Wed, 26 Mar 2003 19:30:23 -0800=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>>=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>>Mike Curley took the time to write and make some very =
helpful=20
suggestions=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>>for my search into the current MSD budget woes.=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>>=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>>I took the time to go to MSD headquarters and get the =
financial=20
data for=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>>last year (2001-2002). FYI, those expenditures were =
$19,050,079=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>>=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>>I also gathered their enrollment data=20
<DIV></DIV>
=
<DIV></DIV>>(http://www.sd281.k12.id.us/GeneralInformation/files/Enrol=
lment.pdf)=20
There=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>>were 2,365 students in 2001-2002.=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>>=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>>If you do the math, the total loaded (fully burdened) =
costs are=20
$8,055 per=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>>student per year.=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>>=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>>I was really amazed by this number! I happen to pay =
$1,500 for=20
my youngest=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>>to attend a private school (which may not be named) in =
Moscow.=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>>=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>>I was also amazed that out of state tuition at UI is=20
$3,000/year; and=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>>instate (for 2001-2002) was $1,238=20
<DIV></DIV>
=
<DIV></DIV>>(http://www.webs.uidaho.edu/ipb/Excel_files/STD_FEE.xls)=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>>=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>>Can someone please tell me why the elementary/junior =
high/high=20
school fees=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>>are nearly three times as much as for a bachelor's =
degree=20
program?=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>>=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>>Dale=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>>=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>>-----Original Message-----=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>>From: vision2020-admin@moscow.com=20
[mailto:vision2020-admin@moscow.com] On=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>>Behalf Of Mike Curley=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>>Sent: Friday, 07 March, 2003 10:14=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>>To: vision2020@moscow.com=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>>Subject: [Vision2020] MSD financial condition=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>>=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>>=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>>Mr. Courtney:=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>>Just to correct a couple of facts before you share your =
thoughts about the=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>>MSD budget:=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>>1. The 2001 $1.1 M supplemental levy is also =
"indefinite" as=20
were the=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>>earlier levies.=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>>2. Unless you have seen something that I haven't, there =
has=20
been no request=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>>for an increase to the levy (at least not yet).=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>>3. Last year, teachers, administrators and all other =
staff=20
members did=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>>indeed have a pay increase--even in the face of the =
district=20
having to ask=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>>for a levy increase that did NOT include any announced =
"salary=20
component;"=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>>and even in the face of having to reduce staff and =
consolidate=20
West Park and=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>>Russell elementary schools into a single K- 6 program.=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>>4. You asked the question: "... how you can have a =
decrease in=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>>2.7%enrollment per year for 7 years (12.9% since 1996) =
and need=20
to have a=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>>bloating budget?" Possible answers to investigate:=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>>a. bad management: failure to suck it up and do what =
needs to=20
be done to=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>>reduce staff where necessary and deal with the wrath of =
the=20
union, and=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>>parents, that is bound to follow.=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>>b. cost of services increase. The 15% of the budget =
that gets=20
spent on=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>>curriculum (including books, worksheets, and other=20
instructional materials),=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>>technology (computers, software, servers, security =
equipment),=20
and buildings=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>>(vehicles to plow the snow, desk replacement, roof =
repairs,=20
etc) suffers=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>>from cost of living increases over 7 years. If a =
vehicle wears=20
out today it=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>>will cost more to replace it with a similar vehicle =
than it=20
would have 7=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>>years ago.=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>>c. salary increases: note that salaries and benefits =
account=20
for about 85%=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>>of the MSD budget. On a $17M budget, that's =
$14,620,000. That=20
means of=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>>course that every 1% of salary and benefit increase =
costs the=20
district=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>>$146,200. Check the salary and benefit increases per =
year over=20
the 7 years=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>>you cited, apply 85% to each year's full budget, and =
add the=20
annual results=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>>to figure out approximately how much increase is =
attributable=20
to salary and=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>>benefit increases over the period.=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>>=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>>And, perhaps not "fact," it might nevertheless be =
useful to=20
acknowledge some=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>>other considerations. Related to point c. above: of =
course, if=20
the=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>>teacher/administrator/staff pool had declined over the =
period,=20
the=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>>salaries-to-total-budget ratio would have been smaller. =
In=20
fairness, one=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>>must note that since all the students are not in the =
same=20
building and not=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>>in the same grade, it is not possible to automatically =
reduce=20
staff=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>>proportionally with student population decreases. For =
example:=20
let's say=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>>there are 125 classes in session at any given time in =
MSD. If=20
student=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>>population declines in a perfectly random way (and I'm =
not=20
suggesting it=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>>does), we lose one student per classroom. What teacher =
do we=20
"cut" next=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>>year, and from which building. I am not suggesting that =
everything was done=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>>over the last 7 years (or any time period for that =
matter) that=20
could have=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>>been to appropriately reduce staff. But it should be =
clear from=20
the=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>>illustration that the problem is not as simple as it =
might=20
seem. What may=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>>also be clear is that to cut staff and consolidate =
classes=20
means larger=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>>class sizes and more children being moved from their =
attendance=20
area=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>>elementary buildings each year, and more teachers being =
reassigned to new=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>>buildings. Teachers and parents don't like any of those =
results, they pound=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>>on the school board not to do that, and so the budget =
has to be=20
larger to=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>>accommodate those desires. So far a majority of the =
voting=20
community has=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>>supported that philosophy--or perhaps they created it. =
The=20
school board is=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>>left in the position of going to voters and saying in =
effect:=20
"if you want=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>>things to continue to run as they have in the past, we =
need=20
more money." One=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>>can reasonably argue that the board would have =
abdicated their=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>>responsibilities had they cut staff in the face of =
voters=20
continued funding=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>>of exisiting staff size. It is not yet clear either: 1. =
whether=20
increased=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>>funding will be necessary to maintain current =
operations; and,=20
2. whether=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>>voters will continue to increase the levy to meet those =
needs.=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>>=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>>Mike Curley=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>>=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>>=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>>=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>>=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>>_____________________________________________________ =
List=20
services made=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>>available by First Step Internet, serving the =
communities of=20
the Palouse=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>>since 1994. http://www.fsr.net =
mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>>/////////////////////////////////////////////////////=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>>=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV></DIV><BR clear=3Dall>
<HR>
MSN 8 helps <A href=3D"http://g.msn.com/8HMRENUS/2752">ELIMINATE =
E-MAIL=20
VIRUSES.</A> Get 2 months FREE*. </BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>
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