[Vision2020] How one ID school district dealt with declining enrollment
Donovan Arnold
donovanarnold@hotmail.com
Sat, 28 Jun 2003 06:57:22 -0700
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<P>John,</P>
<P>I guess what it comes down to is how you view the world.</P></DIV>
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<P>"whatever happened to the ability to choose what you subsidize?" </P>
<P>You do John, it is called voting. We vote indirectly for candidates of offices and sometimes directly on an issue. </P>
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<P>"When a state is spending more money on prisons (as some are) than higher education, what is the problem? When a state is spending over 50% of its budget (as many are) on K-12 education, is this good or bad?"</P>
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<P>Again a matter of perspective. I would rather spend more on a child then a criminal. I would rather spend money on a teacher then imprisoning a person for smoking marijuana. I would rather educate a child for free then a criminal. I think this is the problem. Also, it is proven that people with a High School diploma are way less likely to end up in prison and be more productive members of society. In other words, they generate wealth for the society and prisons take away wealth. It is better to invest in greater future earnings then future losses. </P>
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<P>"But should citizens of a state be "forced" to put a chunk of their earned money away every year for higher education? Whatever happened to working your way through college? Initiative? Discipline? Drive to succeed?"</P>
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<P>First, they are not forced to do so. They vote for people that make that decision.</P>
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<P>Second, I would like you to demonstrate to me how someone can work 81 hours, attend five hours worth of classes, 15 hours of homework, sleep 45 hours a week, and still get through school. This is what it would require to make it through college if students were to work their way through. </P>
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<P>Third, the amount of money that a student attending the University costs the tax payer is about six grand a year for five years. They will produce over $1 million worth of wealth back to the community over their life times. In other words, $36K becomes $1million. This is an incredible return on the money to the community. </P>
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<P>Finally, many students do work very hard to pay their way through school. I paid entirely myself the first half of my college. But it is impossible to get all of it on current wages. Furthermore, most the money you give to the University of Idaho is not going to education but to outreach and research. Another topic for debate. </P>
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<P>"Okay, some people can't afford college. So is it their American-born right that they get a Bachelor's degree? And if that, then why is it not also their "right" to get a Harvard degree? Who should pay for it?"</P>
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<P>No, it is not an american-born right right to get a Bachelor's degree. Bachelor's Degree requires the completion of certain courses that may not be capable for some people to complete. Harvard is a private school and thus has not connection to the public sector.</P>
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<P>"And research of state-funded scholarship programs have shown that instead of causing a strive for excellence, they instead landslide students into under-achievement, taking the easier courses to ensure the adequate GPA for the scholarship. Any psychologist will tell you that the harder a person works for something, the more they will appreciate its value. And if they don't have to work as hard for something, they generally care less about it."</P>
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<P>I don't know where you get your information Mr.. Moss. Most the students I knew in college are required to take "certain" courses to achieve their degrees. The choices they have are limited. Most students choose the "elective" courses as either concentrated in another major and/or a similar interest. If a course is considered an "easier course" or a "harder course" is generally a matter of the skills and educational level of the student. I would consider a 200 level course in math, science, computers, and art extremely difficult, yet 300 and 400 level courses in Political Science, Communications, Philosophy and Psychology extremely more manageable. Likewise, I had numerous friends that would rather take 400 level course in math then a 100 level course in Political Science or Philosophy because they understood the material. If you are suggesting that people don't take courses in fields that they are have aptitude for but rather !
courses they despise, are not interested in, and will soon forget right after the course is completed, I think that is counter productive. Someone must want to learn the material in order to truly learn and benefit from it.</P>
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<P>"But my tax liability today affects my children's future tomorrow. What type of inheritance will I leave them?"</P>
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<P>That is up to you. It is not the right of a child to receive an inheritance. Furthermore, I would rather teach a child to fish and feed them for a lifetime, then give them a fish and feed them for a day. </P>
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<P>"Let's consider the following example. I'm not proposing this, but using it as a case scenario: What would happen if the government didn't provide students with a K-12 education, and we handed more than 50% of a state's budget back into the pockets of the people? Well, these greedy parents would obviously spend the money on personal pleasures. Or would they?"</P>
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<P>No, I would highly doubt it. I would imagine that they would impeach, remove, or fail to re-elect the government officials that made that decision. They would also sue for the violation of the Idaho State Constitution.</P>
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<P>"It would seem that most on Vision2020 would agree that a child should have the opportunity to receive a good education. When I was in school, my parents went out of their way many times to provide extra-curricular learning experiences. Is it every child's right to have good parents?"</P>
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<P>"Good" is a relative term. We as a society have set up certain standards of what authority and responsibilities an adult who has legal authority over a child has to follow. Parents that fall outside those standards loose custody of the child or children under their authority. So yes, to a degree, they are given the right to "good" parents if a "good" parent is defined as anyone who fails within the legal standards of that society. </P>
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<P>"So is the consensus on this forum that we don't want to leave educational choices up to a population of diverse parents, because they would be greedy or lazy or obviously not pay for their children to go to school? Or what? Thus, we must force parents by law to pay taxes to fund schools. While we are at it, let's raise taxes so that these same children will have cars to drive to school, and money to buy houses when they graduate. (And they are going to need money for groceries.)"</P>
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<P>Again, parents are not forced to pay money to schools. They choose to do so with the community they choose to live in and the votes they cast. We do leave educational choices up to parents to add to the child's education, but not to reduce or take away. A parent is free to spend more money, time, effort, energy, and resources to the educational achievement of their child. In fact it is encouraged to do so. They are also given the right to home school their child and/or to send him or her to a private school with higher achievement standards or a school that provides a learning style that is better suited to their child's ability to learn. Parents do not have the right to chain their child up in the basement and deny them an education. They do not have the right to murder other children to achieve higher ratings for their child. Just as they do not have the right to rob the educational system and the quality of education in the !
existing system through vouchers. </P>
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<P>Children do have transportation to school, it is called buses (big yellow long cars, perhaps you have seen one). And yes we do feed children, it tends to put a damper on the whole education/learning concept when the child is starving and malnourished.</P>
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<P>"Is it every American-born child's right that they get the same exact grade-school education, the same college education, the same standard of living, the same car to drive in, the same paying job, the same food on the table, the same vacation spots?"</P>
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<P>No, but it is the right of every child born in the United States to be given the opportunity to achieve these standards. We find educating the child the most proven way of achieving this goal.</P>
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<P> "And since I am putting in that hard work, do you not think I have some right in the say of what happens to the money I have earned?"</P>
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<P>Yes, you have 100% control. You can donate it. You can move to Utah and pay half the amount in taxes. You can move to Alaska, where not only do you not pay taxes, but the state government pays you for the royalties on oil revenues generated from the state. You can move to another country. You can vote in this community. You have more children and make a major return on the investment by getting free education. A world of opportunities out there for you. Unfortunately, one of them is not living in the community we have all worked hard for, some for generations, and not pay taxes. Sorry, I guess that is just the Democrat in me thinking that education is more important then a tax cut for someone that lives in a community that provides a great deal of opportunities and services to them. I hear Orofino is trying what you propose, why don't you move there?</P>
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<P>"What are a child's "rights"? And what are the educational and financial choices provided to parents to decide for their children?</P>
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<P>A child's rights are not many unfortunately, and the few they do have like the "right to an education" is being attacked by many. It is really sad and depressing. </P>
<P>The educational choices provided by the parents are unlimited. The financial opportunities are limited to the parents ability to raise money. </P>
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<DIV>Thanks!</DIV>
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<DIV> </DIV>
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<DIV>Donovan J Arnold</DIV>
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