[Vision2020] Religious Diversity Education
Donovan Arnold
donovanarnold@hotmail.com
Thu, 05 Jun 2003 19:01:40 -0700
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<P>Hi Luke, </P></DIV>
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<DIV></DIV>"they are superior to others and that nothing can stop them. He was quoted
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<DIV></DIV>>as saying, "If the Jews did >not exist it would have been necessary to
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<DIV></DIV>>invent them." It is not too shocking that a man as intelligent >and gifted
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<DIV></DIV>>as Hitler could say one thing and really think another, politicians have
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<DIV></DIV>>been doing this since >the beginning of time."
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<P>>Luke:</P>
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<P>I agree here with what Tom Hansen wrote. You should read Mein Kampf, Don. </P>
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<DIV></DIV>>Hitler wasn't simply saying one thing and believing another. He meant what
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<DIV></DIV>>he said, which was Darwinism applied to world power. And no, he was not a Christian.
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<P>Donovan:</P>
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<P>Hitler was thrown into jail for his political activism. Therefore, to say that a book he wrote after the time he choose to enter the arena of politics makes this as evidence of his "true thoughts" argument mute. Find something that he wrote before he ever finished school. Find some writings of his when he was a Corporal in the Army? Hillary Clinton just released a book talking about who she was "hurt" by Bill's infidelities with Monica Lewinsky. Give me a break! Bill has been cheating on here LONG before he ever met Ms. Lewinsky. Nor do I doubt that she is so stupid as to not know about this infidelities when he was Governor considering that the entire state of Arkansas did know about them. Yet, this is a good political maneuver to win over the sympathy of the women voter for when she runs for president.</P>
<P> If he believed what he said, then he believed he was a Christian.</P>
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<P>Donovan:</P>
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<P>Your statement that "Napoleon used Catholicism, which is different than biblical Christianity". There is no such thing as 'Biblical Christianity'." It is not listed anywhere or any definition of it anywhere. </P>
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<DIV></DIV>Luke:
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<P>"You seem to have misunderstood me. Biblical Christianity is not a nominal category of Christianity; "biblical" means following the Bible's teachings. And Catholicism is very different from biblical Christianity. To make a few notes: Roman Catholicism holds the authority of the ecumenical councils of the church over all the Bible, but biblically, Scripture is superior to man's will and decisions.</P>
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<P>Donovan:</P>
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<P>You obviously aren't Catholic! The authority of the Catholic Church comes from the Bible. The councils only interpret the Bible and it is their interpretation Catholics are to follow (suppose to, many do not). As you know their are many issues that the bible does not talk about, like abortion, pornography,genetic engineering, pollution, foreign policy, war, economics, etc. It is the Church that must interpret these issues based on Scripture. Otherwise, we would have a billion Catholics running around like chickens with their heads off not knowing what exactly Jesus thinks about this new issue. Almost all of the teaching are inline with that of the other Christian Churches around the world. It is not a bunch of fat celibate guys sitting around a room figuring what ever they want everyone to believe as you suggest. They study the bible for decades, travel, and debate the issue based on what the bible says. Then they make a d!
eclaration and everyone is suppose to follow it. Other churches pick some guy up off the street that completed bible study, ordain him, and he says whatever he thinks to the church followers. Not a good idea. Under this system, Satan would make a great preacher, he is congenial, easy to get along with, people really like him, he knows the bible better then any man on earth, he is humorous, and he can twist the meaning of Scripture so well that nobody but Christ could catch him on it. </P>
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<P>Luke:</P>
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<P>>"-Roman Catholicism is centered around the pope and around rituals, but </P>
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<DIV></DIV>>biblically, Christ is at the center and not Peter, and practical
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<P>>teaching/obedience is upheld over rites."</P>
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<P>Donovan:</P>
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<P>Oops, you been getting you information from someone that is jealous of the Catholic Church, perhaps a Pastor that is arrogant, or teacher who is against the church. The Catholic Church is centered around the teachings of Christ. Mainly the four gospels of Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John, but also other books of the Bible like the Letters to the Romans. It emphasizes the sacraments as a way to build a personal relationship with Christ, such as communion and reconciliation. Also, all Catholic Churches have the same Mass all over the world, with the exception of the Hominy.</P>
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<DIV></DIV>Donovan:
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<P>Third, </P>
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<DIV></DIV>> >Even if you were correct about your assumptions about Hitler and Napoleon ,
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<DIV></DIV>>which you are not >based on the greater minds of society, that is only two
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<DIV></DIV>>people and there are millions that slaughtered >in the name of Christianity.
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<DIV></DIV>>They put crosses on their swords.
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<P>Luke:</P>
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<P>>Other than the crusades, which went in the name of Roman Catholicism, I don't know what you're talking about.</P>
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<P>Donovan:</P>
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<P>Oh, yes, try picking up a history book, Christian Europeans and their descendants slaughtered more people then any other group of people since the year 1300. Ever hear of slavery? How about Africa? How about México and the Aztecs? Did you know that the entire North American Continent had people on it before Christian Europeans got here, do ya think they just decide to go away because they had some place better to go? Ever hear of Vietnam? Grenada? Iraq? How about Japan in 1945, you know what happened there? How about Cuba in the 1890's? How about Eskimos? Would like to know what the Church of England did to Ireland, Scotland, North American Colonists, France, Spain, Aborigines, and Zulu? Why is Hopi Indians population down to virtually nothing? Not to mention all the people we had killed by supporting death squads in El Salvador and Nicaragua. How about the funding of Osama Bin Laden to fight the Soviet Union in the 1980's? How about the arms negotiati!
ons of the Ronald Regan Administration with the Iranians? How about the Asian population that came over to the United States and built our railroads, do you think they were treated well? How about all the countless murders and hangings of African Americans in the South up until the 1970's (assuming they have stopped I don't know)? How about the purchasing of products that fuel the funding for the inhuman slave labor of little boys and girls in China? How about the huge amount of suffering and misery we cause by polluting the oceans, rivers,streams, land, and air? All the people that do these things everyday in the world claim to be bible believing christians, they attend church, pray to God, and pronounced the same beliefs you do. I do not find them any better people then the others around the world that pronounce any other faith. You can deny this, but it is recorded fact, if you don't know any of this is going on then you are not in a position to be ju!
dging others or making proclamations as to what is the better of any t
wo faiths. </P>
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<P>Luke:</P>
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<P>"I am not fanatical in the same way that countless of jihad </P>
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<DIV></DIV>>suicide bombers have been >>fanatical. It is bloody murder to kill someone
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<DIV></DIV>>because they don't serve the true God, and I would >>never do such a thing."
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<P>> ></P>
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<P>Donovan:</P>
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<P>You are fanatical in a different way, with words and ideas. This can be </P>
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<DIV></DIV>>just as or more damaging in a spiritual sense because you are changing
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<DIV></DIV>>souls not just taking the physical lives of people.
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<P>Luke:</P>
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<P>"If I convince people that Christ died for their sins, and therefore they should go forth and stop living a life of sin, what damage is that?" </P>
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<P>Donovan:</P>
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<P>You do not convince them of that. Instead you make them angry. If I saw someone say Christianity is the best religion and the countries that professed that faith caused the most world wide damage I would be included to think they are fools and soon to meet an unfriendly end by God. You must first be holy then preach holiness. You can't be the most wicked and cause the most damage and then say "we are holy follow us!" This does not work, sorry. You shall know them by the fruit they bare. </P>
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<P>Donovan:</P>
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<P>Philippines, and Africa. I would also like to point out >hat their were more </P>
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<DIV></DIV>>people to slaughter during >these centuries then the 7th and 8th. >
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<P>Luke:</P>
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<P>>Actually, the Islamic war in former Byzantium continued until about </P>
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<DIV></DIV>>September 11th, 1413 (not absolutely certain on the year, but it was in the 1400's), when Constantinople finally fell to the Muslim swords. That's 700 years for just one war.
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<P>Donovan:</P>
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<P>I guess the European Christians felt inclined to take over the slaughter after his time? </P>
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<P>Luke:</P>
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<P>"Their Koran says specifically that if a Muslim warrior dies fighting in the name of Allah, he will wake >up in paradise with 70+ hot chicks for his pleasure." </P>
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<P>Donovan:</P>
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<P>Which verse in the Korean specifically mentions "he will wake up in paradise with 70+ hot chicks". </P>
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<DIV></DIV>Luke:
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<P>The wording isn't exact, but it is stated in the Koran. I'll find the verse </P>
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<DIV></DIV>>for you shortly (I don't actually have a Koran, but I promise I'll get back
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<DIV></DIV>>to you on that).
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<P>Donovan:</P>
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<P>Well I think the wording is important especially when you say, "specifically" which implies exact wording. If you went to the Library you could pick up the Koran, or you could type it into Google. However, I don't think you are trained enough to read it as it is suppose to be read just as you can't pick up a copy of the Bible and say "Christians believe in the bible, the Bible says to stone anyone that commits adult, I am going to go stone my neighbor so I can please God!" I doubt your wisdom of the book is any better then mine and you probably are better off talking to someone about it that knows and follows it before jumping to conclusions about its teachings and meanings. Just like you would be offending by someone saying someone saying you believe in polygamy and stoning because the book you read preaches it. You would at least want to be given the chance to explain it. You need to give a Muslim the same opportunity.</P>
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<P>>Luke:</P>
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<P>You don't seem to follow history too well, Don (no offense, but it seems </P>
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<DIV></DIV>>true). The Iranians and Iraqis have hated each other for years and years and years;
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<DIV></DIV>>they didn't need funding to squabble, and Reagan actually never funded the
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<DIV></DIV>>Iranians, it was an officer of his acting independently, Oliver North.
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<DIV></DIV>>But anyways, that is a rabbit-trail. To get back to the point of what I was
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<DIV></DIV>>saying, there is only one way, only one truth. You seemed to have missed this point.
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<P>Donovan:</P>
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<P>First of all, I am well aware of the Iran-Contra Affair. I was living in Washington DC at the time and my Father was working in a building right across from Oliver North and was the same rank as he but in the Navy. I also studied it in depth for my political science degree. Lt. Colonel Oliver North was not high enough to authorize the illegal shipment of arms to Iran for the purpose of making sales to illegally fund the Contras Death Squads in the Nicaragua. Nor did Oliver North have high enough security clearance to find out and hire former CIA agents to assist the Contras in their military objectives. Admiral Pointdexter of the US Navy was charged to find a way to stop the "Communist Movement" In Nicaragua by "unknown" members of the Regan Administration. In order to do so they had to hide the evidence because the US Legislature passed a law forbidding the funding of the Contras. The Contras were killing the Nicaraguan people because they were supporting the Sandin!
istas who were communist and wanted the ruling powers to stop stealing their land to grow coffee beans, and illegal drugs because they needed the land to grow food. But because they were "Communist" and close to the United States and Reagan thought that Communism was the greatest threat to America and Freedom, he had to assist the Contras instead. So Pointdexer illegally arranged to sell arms to the Iranians to illegally fund the Contras. Lt. Col. North was just a low man on the totem poll that shredded the paperwork to help cover it all up. So the controversy surrounds the man who was following his orders and standing against Communism, and also selling arms to the Iranians. This is the simple story, I could get into more detail if you want. Blaming a Lt. Col. for having the sole power to negotiate an arms deal with international authorities is silly. Don't you think he would have someone else drive him to Skippers to eat the all you can!
eat buffet while my sister poured his coffee for him if he had power
of the Department of Defense and the CIA? Don't you think he would have more then just one secretary working for him in his tiny little office? Don't you think he would at least have his own parking space at work? Don't you think he would be higher in rank then a Lt. Colonel? Considering that every other guy working in his building was a 05 or higher? </P>
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<P>You are correct that the Iranians and Iraq's have been at each others throats for years. This is primarily because of a small piece of land that is on the boarder that they each claim is theirs. However, Iran is much larger and more powerful then Iraq. In November of 1979 General Saddam Hussein was elected as the head of the Baath Party in Iraq which ruled Iraq. He declared war against the Iranians to attempt to expand Iraq and gain popularity. Saddam began to lose the war and instead of taking the land the Iranians were defeating him on his own soil. In 1981 Reagan took office and did not like the Iranians because they ousted the Shah and held Americans Hostages in 1980. So Reagan thought to fund Saddam and his Military. Donald Rumsfeld was sent as a Special Convoy for the President to meet with Saddam(check my earlier posts, I send a picture of Rumsfeld shaking hands with Hussein). The US agreed to fund Saddam to defeat the Iranians. S!
addam used the funding to create nerve gas(with US knowledge). When the Kurds in his own country of Iraq attacked his forces in the North, he was being closed in on by the Iranians from the East and Kurdish forces in the North. In order to stop this, he gassed the Kurds in the north and then moved his forces to the East. The war then raged on for another 5 years where a it ended in a truce in 1988. However, it did not end before 1 million soldiers had died on both sides. A huge number for countries that have 22 million and 50 million. This war would not have ended so tragically had the Reagan Administration not given arms to the Iranians and the Iraqis at the same time to continue fighting the war. Everyone would have been better off if we would not have funded either one and let Iran demolish Saddam and prevented the Kurds from being gassed because of US tax dollars going to fund both sides of the war and the fund!
ing of Contras Death Squads in Central America. </P>
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<P>The Reagan Administration also funded Osama Bin Laden to lead a resistance movement in Afghanistan against an attempted take over by the Soviet Union. </P>
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<P>>Luke:</P>
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<P>You said that many "Christians" have been hypocritical and slaughtered millions (to paraphrase a little). But, to look at it another way, just because someone likes to make and use counterfeit dollar bills, that is no reason for us to decide not to use real dollar bills. "Oh, I think I'd better shift to francs!" Even though a few people in history, calling themselves Christians, did terrible things, that does not mean that we shouldn't follow the straight and narrow and reject Christianity.</P>
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<P>I am not arguing that we reject Christianity, I am arguing that Christians have proven to be no greater then the other faiths you seem to give no merit to. Is it possible that Allah is the same as God, as Yahweh is the same as God, as the Father of Christ is the same as God. As the maker of Heaven and Earth is the same God? As the God of David and Jacob is the same God? We have 80 million different names for the same God, is it not possible that God came to them in a different form and taught to a different people and different cultures a different way so they may come to understand the Lord? Are the Hindus incorrect in saying that their are over 30 Million gods? "God says that you shall worship no other God besides me." This indicates to me that there is indeed more then just one God. </P>
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<DIV>I agree with you that there is only one "true" God. I disagree that the name and interpretation and understanding of him by "many" of today's so called "Christians" is the only and true interpretation of him. Most if not all religions seem to have some very strong connections. Most if not all believe that there is one "Super God" a god above all others. Most seem to believe that murder, rape, lying, cheating, stealing, and sleeping with another's spouse is wrong. Most seem to believe that they must worship and pray. Most seem to have a concept of "sin". Most believe that someone has come down either as "Child of God" or a great prophet. Most seem to believe in a concept of heaven and hell. Most seem to think that people have a "soul" or something like it. Most seem to think that God created everything in some way or some how. Most seem to be centered around fighting or working for God. I find this more then a coincidence that all these things are the same. Most seem to !
have stories about the creation of the Earth and of people from the forming out of Corn, to being animals, to being created from dust. Most seem to have weird rituals. Most seem to believe in some type of rapture or a Godly end to the world. Most seem to think that their religion is the true and only way and that all others are different then the theirs.</DIV>
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<DIV>Did you know that Native Americans had the exact ten commandments as the ones given in the Bible? They received them long before anyone from the Eastern world came. They claim it is was given to them by the "Great Spirit". The Great Spirit made all things and once even sent a Man who was his child, born of a Virgin from a spiritual tribe. He disappeared young and preached of the Great Spirit before he disappeared. The followers of this man formed the 12 tribes of Iroquois and ended a thousand year war that was going on in the Eastern part of what is now the United States. Gee, who does this sound like to you? </DIV>
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<DIV>Perhaps if you stopped talking for bit, and listen, you would find out that god loves other people besides the wealthiest, fattest, greediest, murderous, white people that have a special need to interfere with the internal affairs and customs of people around the world that just trying to eek of an existence for themselves and their families. Other cultures have been contacted by God and the Holy Spirit and have words of wisdom and serenity and Gods grace. Jesus was in human form, ever think when he was in Spiritual Form he might have at least said "hello" to other people outside Jerusalem? Or is the only people saved living in a little church in Idaho or Washington with less then 2000 followers as you presume? Like Hello! Are you for real Luke? </DIV>
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<DIV>Donovan J Arnold</DIV>
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