From dale@courtneys.us Sun Jun 1 01:21:54 2003 From: dale@courtneys.us (Dale Courtney) Date: Sat, 31 May 2003 17:21:54 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] MSD trends Message-ID: <008301c327d3$ce6ae300$ca01a8c0@home> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0084_01C32799.220C0B00 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Visionaries:=20 Yesterday, I received some interesting 15-year data from MSD. I just completed analyzing and graphing it, and thought that some of my = thoughtful antagonists may enjoy wrestling through it with me. Here's what I looked = at: * MSD Expenditures=20 * MSD Enrollment=20 * MSD Test Scores=20 * MSD Staffing1=20 =20 When inflation is taken into consideration, the following three very interesting trends come out: * Fact #1: Adjusting for inflation, MSD's spending has increased at a rate 3.7 times faster than student enrollment.=20 * Commentary:=20 * Interestingly, the rate of loss of students at MSD is about the same as the economic inflation rate.=20 * That means we can hold real dollar spending constant and keep the amount of spending per child the same (i.e., freeze the annual budget = until the number of students starts increasing). This is assuming that = students are the true economic driver in government education.=20 * Fact #2: The rate at which staff members are being added to the MSD payroll is about the same as the rate at which the enrollment is = decreasing (3% per year).=20 * Commentary:=20 * Of those 52 additional staff additions, 17 were teachers. However, 35 non-teaching full-time staff were also added to the payroll. These additional 52 people were obviously needed to teach our 336 fewer = students?=20 * Fact #3: In spite of a near four-fold increase in inflation-adjusted spending, test scores have gone from a high of 95.2% in 1992 to a low of = 63% * Commentary: This would imply a negative correlation between:=20 * Spending and test scores.=20 * Staff size and test scores=20 * Smaller classes and test scores=20 Can anyone please tell me what sense any of this makes? How is any of = this "for the children"? Perhaps Mike Curley can answer this because no one = from MSD or the school board has. If our student enrollment continues to fall at the rate it has been, MSD will reach 50% of its 1993 maximum size in the 2008-2009 school year. = Can anyone justify that we continue to increase inflation-adjusted spending = when we're about to educate half as many children? =20 As with other government organizations, I fear that self-perpetuation is = the actual goal within MSD.=20 Best, Dale Courtney Moscow, Idaho 1 Note: MSD Expenditures, Enrollment, Total School District Staff, and Enrollment + Inflation are all expressed as a percentage increase over = FY 1988 levels. The Test Score Percentile Rank is not measured as a change = from FY 1988, but rather shows how MSD students' composite average scores on = the Tests of Achievement and Proficiency (TAP) ranked, as a percentile, = against all test takers nationwide. Because the test score ranking is set = against a static 0 to 100 scale, it should not be used as a straight comparison to = the other measurements, which can increase indefinitely beyond 100%. The = test score rankings over time can be useful, however, for the purposes of tracking performance trends. ------=_NextPart_000_0084_01C32799.220C0B00 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message
Visionaries:

Yesterday, I received some interesting 15-year = data from=20 MSD. I just completed analyzing and graphing it, and thought that some = of my=20 thoughtful antagonists may enjoy wrestling through it with me. = Here's=20 what I looked at:

When inflation is taken into consideration, the = following=20 three very interesting trends come out:

Can anyone please tell me what sense any = of this=20 makes? How is any of this "for the children"? Perhaps Mike Curley can = answer=20 this because no one from MSD or the school board has.

If our student enrollment continues to fall at = the rate=20 it has been, MSD will reach 50% of its 1993 maximum size in the = 2008-2009 school=20 year. Can anyone justify that we continue to increase=20 inflation-adjusted spending when we're about to educate half as = many=20 children?  

As with other government organizations, I fear = that=20 self-perpetuation is the actual goal within MSD.

Best,
Dale Courtney
Moscow, = Idaho

1 Note: MSD Expenditures, Enrollment, Total School = District Staff,=20 and Enrollment + Inflation are all expressed as a percentage increase = over FY=20 1988 levels. The Test Score Percentile Rank is not measured as a change = from FY=20 1988, but rather shows how MSD students' composite average scores on the = Tests=20 of Achievement and Proficiency (TAP) ranked, as a percentile, against = all test=20 takers nationwide. Because the test score ranking is set against a = static 0 to=20 100 scale, it should not be used as a straight comparison to the other=20 measurements, which can increase indefinitely beyond 100%. The test = score=20 rankings over time can be useful, however, for the purposes of tracking=20 performance trends.

------=_NextPart_000_0084_01C32799.220C0B00-- From ted_moffett@hotmail.com Sun Jun 1 09:08:57 2003 From: ted_moffett@hotmail.com (Ted Moffett) Date: Sun, 01 Jun 2003 08:08:57 +0000 Subject: [Vision2020] How big money affects education in Washington D.C. Message-ID: All: The subject is complex. Part of the subject here is, or should be, the broad question of whether the government can run ANY program efficiently. If it can, then public schools might be brought into line to be run more effectively and efficiently. If no government program is efficient and effective, we have less grounds for hope of reforming the public schools. Vouchers are one alternative, but hardly a new idea, having already been implemented in other areas of the US. In trying to broaden the debate by suggesting that maybe there are government programs that are run efficiently, which deliver what they promise, which many would argue the US military does, I was not avoiding the question. But if all government programs are inherently inefficient and ineffective, which is a point of view often argued by conservatives, then certainly the Pentagon and US military should be a target of privatization, along with public schools. I posed the question that if the Pentagon and military are run efficiently, frugally and effectively, perhaps we should let the military run the public schools, or maybe model some of the management techniques of the military and apply them to public schools? This question is a bit more involved than the original question I asked on this same topic. I was also of course mocking the contradictions of conservatives who wish to downsize public schools while their pet government military programs get pork, pork, pork! Ted >From: "Van Deventer, Jack" >To: "Ted Moffett" >CC: >Subject: RE: [Vision2020] How big money affects education in Washington >D.C. >Date: Sat, 31 May 2003 15:16:44 -0700 > >Ted, in trying to change the subject, sounds a whole lot like Ronald >Reagan who once said, "Crime wouldn't pay if the government ran it." >Jack > >-----Original Message----- >From: Ted Moffett [mailto:ted_moffett@hotmail.com] >Sent: Saturday, May 31, 2003 1:58 PM >To: Van Deventer, Jack >Cc: vision2020@moscow.com >Subject: Re: [Vision2020] How big money affects education in Washington >D.C. > > >All, et. al. > >This excerpt from the National Review is more of the same on educational > >problems not being solved by the money spent on public schools... > >If "throwing money" at the problem of sub par public schools is the >wrong >approach, an often heard critique from "conservatives," who wish to get >the >government out of the business of education and social services and >related >government programs that ostensibly help people directly, why do many of > >these same conservatives drool over dramatic increases in government >spending for what is a huge socialist government enterprise, namely the >Pentagon and US military? > >Perhaps we should privatize the Pentagon, and let the inherently more >efficient and effective private sector provide for our nations defense >in a >manner that could save the taxpayers money? > >Or is the solution to let our military run the public schools with their > >super efficient and frugal approach (sic) to spending solving the >problems >created by those tax and spend liberals? > >The contradictions in political ideology are a never ending source of >amazement! > >Ted > > >From: "Van Deventer, Jack" > >To: > >Subject: [Vision2020] How big money affects education in Washington >D.C. > >Date: Sat, 31 May 2003 14:21:19 -0700 > > > > > > > > > > > >The June 2, 2003 issue of National Review (page 8) reads: > > > >*** > > > >Washington, D.C. spends $9,650 per child in the public schools-about > >$3,000 above the national average and more than all but two other >school > >districts in the country. The city doesn't have much to show for it, > >just a 42 percent dropout rate and the nation's lowest SAT scores. So > >it's no wonder Mayor Anthony Williams recently said that he "got up one > >morning and decided there are a lot of kids getting a crappy >education." > >He thus decided to support a modest voucher program for poor children >in > >his city. This has earned him a full measure of grief from all the > >usual quarters, because Democrats aren't supposed to buck the teacher > >unions. Yet Williams, joined by school-board president Peggy Cooper > >Cafritz, is doing the right thing. If these liberal supporters of > >school choice succeed, it is possible to hope that in the future > >something more than 6 percent of the city's fourth and eighth graders > >will test "proficient" in math. > > > >*** > > > > > > > >Jack > > > >___________________________ > > > >Jack Van Deventer > > > >jack@wsu.edu > > > >_________________________________________________________________ >Protect your PC - get McAfee.com VirusScan Online >http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963 > >_____________________________________________________ > List services made available by First Step Internet, > serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994. > http://www.fsr.net > mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com >ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ _________________________________________________________________ The new MSN 8: advanced junk mail protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From donovanarnold@hotmail.com Sun Jun 1 09:15:25 2003 From: donovanarnold@hotmail.com (Donovan Arnold) Date: Sun, 01 Jun 2003 01:15:25 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] MSD trends Message-ID:

Dale,

Interesting how we can just through numbers and statistics around without questioning the validity of how we got those numbers or what they really mean. Please answer the following questions and you will understand what I mean.

"* Fact #1: Adjusting for inflation, MSD's spending has increased at a
rate 3.7 times faster than student enrollment."

 1)What percentage of these children are disabled 15 years ago vs. today?

    2)What is the percentage increase cost of MSD vs. that of the national average, nearby school districts, and the Private schools?

  3) What is the fixed cost of educating children? In other words, if we only had 100 hundred or less in our school how mush would the MSD have to spend per child to maintain the same opportunities for children and meet federal and state regulations. In other words, shouldn't the cost per child go down when you have huge numbers and up for less? If Ford was to produce only one Ford Escort in 2004 wouldn't it cost about $20 Million to do so, but if they produced 15 million wouldn't it cost about only $9K to produce one?

4) Are you using the national rate of inflation for education which is about 10%, or the national overall inflation rate which is about 3.5%? This is the difference between comparing inflation of a computer to a house. Different markets have different rates of inflation that you are suppose to use otherwise you are just playing number games.

>"* That means we can hold real dollar spending constant and keep the
>amount of spending per child the same (i.e., freeze the annual budget until
>the number of students starts increasing). This is assuming that students"

What if utilities increase? What if a building is declared unsafe? What if the insurance for fire protection increases? What if teachers leave because they can't get a pay raise? What if the insurance coverage on teachers and workers increases? What if the number of children with a disability increases? 

>
>*" Fact #2: The rate at which staff members are being added to the MSD
>payroll is about the same as the rate at which the enrollment is decreasing
>(3% per year).
>
>
>* Commentary:
>* Of those 52 additional staff additions, 17 were teachers. However,
>35 non-teaching full-time staff were also added to the payroll. These

>additional 52 people were obviously needed to teach our 336 fewer students?"

What classifies as a teaching position. Is a Nurse considered a teacher? Or how about Secretary? How about a construction or maintenance worker? Or how about special assistant to help disabled children? How about a psychologist to assist children who are victims of sexual and physical abuse? Or a guidance councilor to help students get into college or get a job so they don't go on welfare? Which one of these should we get rid of?

>
>"* Fact #3: In spite of a near four-fold increase in inflation-adjusted

>spending, test scores have gone from a high of 95.2% in 1992 to a low of 63%

1)Is this because we are now testing all children vs just a few select ones like in 1992? 

2) Are there different tests now then in 1992?

>* Commentary: This would imply a negative correlation between: "

1) Is 63% the year for 2003 or is this your highest to lowest? (Nice to know 1992 was the highest, I was class of 1992 when I attended MHS.)

>
>
>*" Spending and test scores.
>
>* Staff size and test scores
>
>* Smaller classes and test scores
>
>Can anyone please tell me what sense any of this makes? How is any of this
>"for the children"? Perhaps Mike Curley can answer this because no one from
>MSD or the school board has.
>
>If our student enrollment continues to fall at the rate it has been, MSD
>will reach 50% of its 1993 maximum size in the 2008-2009 school year. Can
>anyone justify that we continue to increase inflation-adjusted spending when

>we're about to educate half as many children?"

1) What methods did you use to estimate the regression parameters of this prediction model for the 2008-09 school year? Using a simple regression model for estimating the future populations of the MSD would not produce any significant data even with multiple factors being considered. It is unlikely that all variables were taken into account in this prediction. According to the 2000 US Census the number of residences with families with children in elementary and secondary education is increasing, not decreasing. The primary variable in this reduction in the number of children is the increase in the number of children attending private schools in the region. Four primary variables must hold true in the simple linear regression model that you have chosen to follow. 1) The number of families with children must continue to want to enlist their children in these private schools. 2) The private schools must be able to handle the ever increasing numb! ers of children at a profitable margin. 3) The parents of the children must be able to continue to afford the cost of sending their children to private schools. 4) All other factors controlling the current population trends must remain constant.

I doubt you can maintain with any reasonable degree of certainty that none of these factors will change in the next five to six years.

>"As with other government organizations, I fear that self-perpetuation is the

>actual goal within MSD."

Primary Disagreement:

I do not disagree with you on the notion that the Educational System doesn't prioritize its income to the best interests of the children. In the summer of 1991 the MHS built a building that connected the main HS building to the Annex building. This project cost millions and it served no purpose. It had no classrooms and no storage. It basically made the building look nice, added a meeting place for before and after classes, and keep you from getting wet when going from one building to the other. I was mad when after I saw it was build when we needed other things. I was also opposed to the huge amount of money spent on the electronic bulletin board.

My primary disagreement with you is that the schools do need the money, it is just how that money is spent. Look at UI. They spend $10's of millions of dollars on making the school look "pretty" when teachers are being cut, salaries slashed, benefits lost, class sizes increased, and buildings that have classrooms being left condemned while recreation centers and maintenance buildings are being constructed that put local businesses out in the cold. All this before one bureaucratic administrator is cut or salary slashed.

In order to fix the problem, instead of slashing funding which leads to the faculty, staff, and students beings hurt, try something else. How about mandate that the administration require certain salaries and benefits to teachers and faculty, class sizes be only be so large, and buildings be updated before the administrations can add electronic bulletin boards and neat looking buildings that make the school look nice but serve no educational purpose can be bought. Why not require a public vote to raise the salaries of educational bureaucrats? Or require a rule that says teachers get a raise before the administrators do. We need to hold the people that make the decisions accountable for their actions. Instead your way allows a giant hole that administrators understand how to get out of. Close that hole first, that is where the money is going. Don't punish children, faculty, and staff for the actions of administrators that are trying to pad the! ir resumes to get jobs elsewhere.

The state of Idaho ranks only 46th out of 51 (counting WDC) for spending per student according to the 2003 World Almanac. That means only states like Mississippi and Louisiana spend less then we do on education. Our text books are old, our computers are rare, are buildings inadequate, are teachers underpaid, and disability services lacking. My complaint is not how much we are spending on education, we don't spend squat on education, my complaint is why it is not getting to the students.

Donovan J Arnold

 


MSN 8 helps ELIMINATE E-MAIL VIRUSES. Get 2 months FREE*. From storlar@turbonet.com Sun Jun 1 09:16:44 2003 From: storlar@turbonet.com (Prof. Robbie Storla) Date: Sun, 1 Jun 2003 01:16:44 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] Rumor Control In-Reply-To: <200305302008.h4UK8uQW043508@whale2.fsr.net> Message-ID: <000801c32816$24b4dc10$cc70e4ce@robbie> Has anyone sent the high school principal an e-mail asking him about this and gotten his response about this issue. Just a thought, as no one likes rumors going around about things. RES -----Original Message----- From: vision2020-admin@moscow.com [mailto:vision2020-admin@moscow.com] On Behalf Of Mark Rounds Sent: Friday, May 30, 2003 1:09 PM To: vision2020@moscow.com Subject: [Vision2020] Rumor Control I have heard through the grape vine that the Moscow High Principal invited the Potlatch Basketball Coach down for what amounted to a job inteview recently before the selection committee got a look at this individual. The actual job opening is for a math teacher and it is also my understanding that while this individual has an enviable record as a basketball coach, his teaching skills in math are not first rate. Is this just a rumor or is there some substance to it? If it is true, I would hope that our priorities are for a better math education rather than winning a few more basketball games. Mark Rounds _____________________________________________________ List services made available by First Step Internet, serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994. http://www.fsr.net mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com ????????????????????????????????????????????????????? From donovanarnold@hotmail.com Sun Jun 1 09:44:39 2003 From: donovanarnold@hotmail.com (Donovan Arnold) Date: Sun, 01 Jun 2003 01:44:39 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] How big money affects education in Washington D.C. Message-ID:

"What if the military had to hold a bake sale to raise money for an fighter plane and the schools got all the money they needed?"--Bumper sticker

I think when the economy is horrible the government should expand, construction increase and taxes for the poor and middle class decrease while taxes for the rich increase.

In good economic times taxes for everyone should increase and the government should shrink.

The government can run more effectively if it is done correctly. 99% of social security revenues go directly to the beneficiaries. Private insurance companies only have a return rate of about 90-95% to it's beneficiaries. When the government took over manufacturing and production plants in the US during WWI and WWII production more then doubled. It depends on the motives and regulations of the government. Some government bureaucracies are created for the sole purpose of creating jobs for the area, in this case it is unproductive. On the other hand, when a government program is created to actually do something, it is often more productive because it doesn't care about returning a profit to stock holders.

Donovan J Arnold

>From: "Ted Moffett"
>To: jack@wsu.edu
>CC: vision2020@moscow.com
>Subject: RE: [Vision2020] How big money affects education in Washington D.C.
>Date: Sun, 01 Jun 2003 08:08:57 +0000
>
>
>All:
>
>The subject is complex. Part of the subject here is, or should be,
>the broad question of whether the government can run ANY program
>efficiently. If it can, then public schools might be brought into
>line to be run more effectively and efficiently. If no government
>program is efficient and effective, we have less grounds for hope of
>reforming the public schools. Vouchers are one alternative, but
>hardly a new idea, having already been implemented in other areas of
>the US.
>
>In trying to broaden the debate by suggesting that maybe there are
>government programs that are run efficiently, which deliver what
>they promise, which many would argue the US military does, I was not
>avoiding the question. But if all government programs are
>inherently inefficient and ineffective, which is a point of view
>often argued by conservatives, then certainly the Pentagon and US
>military should be a target of privatization, along with public
>schools.
>
>I posed the question that if the Pentagon and military are run
>efficiently, frugally and effectively, perhaps we should let the
>military run the public schools, or maybe model some of the
>management techniques of the military and apply them to public
>schools? This question is a bit more involved than the original
>question I asked on this same topic.
>
>I was also of course mocking the contradictions of conservatives who
>wish to downsize public schools while their pet government military
>programs get pork, pork, pork!
>
>Ted
>
>
>
>>From: "Van Deventer, Jack"
>>To: "Ted Moffett"
>>CC:
>>Subject: RE: [Vision2020] How big money affects education in
>>Washington D.C.
>>Date: Sat, 31 May 2003 15:16:44 -0700
>>
>>Ted, in trying to change the subject, sounds a whole lot like
>>Ronald
>>Reagan who once said, "Crime wouldn't pay if the government ran
>>it."
>>Jack
>>
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: Ted Moffett [mailto:ted_moffett@hotmail.com]
>>Sent: Saturday, May 31, 2003 1:58 PM
>>To: Van Deventer, Jack
>>Cc: vision2020@moscow.com
>>Subject: Re: [Vision2020] How big money affects education in
>>Washington
>>D.C.
>>
>>
>>All, et. al.
>>
>>This excerpt from the National Review is more of the same on
>>educational
>>
>>problems not being solved by the money spent on public schools...
>>
>>If "throwing money" at the problem of sub par public schools is the
>>wrong
>>approach, an often heard critique from "conservatives," who wish to
>>get
>>the
>>government out of the business of education and social services and
>>related
>>government programs that ostensibly help people directly, why do
>>many of
>>
>>these same conservatives drool over dramatic increases in
>>government
>>spending for what is a huge socialist government enterprise, namely
>>the
>>Pentagon and US military?
>>
>>Perhaps we should privatize the Pentagon, and let the inherently
>>more
>>efficient and effective private sector provide for our nations
>>defense
>>in a
>>manner that could save the taxpayers money?
>>
>>Or is the solution to let our military run the public schools with
>>their
>>
>>super efficient and frugal approach (sic) to spending solving the
>>problems
>>created by those tax and spend liberals?
>>
>>The contradictions in political ideology are a never ending source
>>of
>>amazement!
>>
>>Ted
>>
>> >From: "Van Deventer, Jack"
>> >To:
>> >Subject: [Vision2020] How big money affects education in
>>Washington
>>D.C.
>> >Date: Sat, 31 May 2003 14:21:19 -0700
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >The June 2, 2003 issue of National Review (page 8) reads:
>> >
>> >***
>> >
>> >Washington, D.C. spends $9,650 per child in the public
>>schools-about
>> >$3,000 above the national average and more than all but two other
>>school
>> >districts in the country. The city doesn't have much to show for
>>it,
>> >just a 42 percent dropout rate and the nation's lowest SAT
>>scores. So
>> >it's no wonder Mayor Anthony Williams recently said that he "got
>>up one
>> >morning and decided there are a lot of kids getting a crappy
>>education."
>> >He thus decided to support a modest voucher program for poor
>>children
>>in
>> >his city. This has earned him a full measure of grief from all
>>the
>> >usual quarters, because Democrats aren't supposed to buck the
>>teacher
>> >unions. Yet Williams, joined by school-board president Peggy
>>Cooper
>> >Cafritz, is doing the right thing. If these liberal supporters
>>of
>> >school choice succeed, it is possible to hope that in the future
>> >something more than 6 percent of the city's fourth and eighth
>>graders
>> >will test "proficient" in math.
>> >
>> >***
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >Jack
>> >
>> >___________________________
>> >
>> >Jack Van Deventer
>> >
>> >jack@wsu.edu
>> >
>>
>>_________________________________________________________________
>>Protect your PC - get McAfee.com VirusScan Online
>>http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963
>>
>>_____________________________________________________
>> List services made available by First Step Internet,
>> serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
>> http://www.fsr.net
>> mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com
>>ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ
>
>_________________________________________________________________
>The new MSN 8: advanced junk mail protection and 2 months FREE*
>http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail
>
>_____________________________________________________
>List services made available by First Step Internet, serving the
>communities of the Palouse since 1994.
>http://www.fsr.net
>mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com
>ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ

Add photos to your e-mail with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. From ted_moffett@hotmail.com Sun Jun 1 10:22:54 2003 From: ted_moffett@hotmail.com (Ted Moffett) Date: Sun, 01 Jun 2003 09:22:54 +0000 Subject: [Vision2020] Religious Diversity Education Message-ID: Luke: Students in the public schools recite a pledge NOW that states they are "one nation under God" right in the pledge of allegiance! This reference to God was challenged in the courts, but this challenge so far has failed. I know that in the subjects studied in public schools now, in literature, history and sociology or social studies classes, "God" is mentioned and discussed. It would be impossible to teach literature, history and sociology with mentioning the subject of God and religion. How could you teach history without mentioning the Pope and Catholic church? How many poems and novels mention God? Numerous. Literature courses have passages in books that mention God. And sociology courses will give the breakdown of religious faith in the USA, mostly Christian, with a few other faiths making up the rest. And again I state, it is not taught in the public schools, now or at any time, that there is no God, unless by some teacher pushing their own agenda against the rules! You are suggesting that the public schools have a policy of teaching Atheism, and that is just plain not true! Ted >From: "Luke" >To: "Ted Moffett" >CC: "vision2020" >Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Religious Diversity Education >Date: Sat, 31 May 2003 07:40:16 -0700 > >Hey, Ted, > > > It is easy for this point of view to lead to persecution of those who > > believe different, and people of many different faiths, including > > Christianity, have persecuted those of other faiths throuhout history, >and > > continue to do so now. I caution that to assert absolute certainty >about > > your faith and deny the possibility that other faiths could be valid is >a > > dangerous position that could lead to extremism. > >Well, if I believe that everyone should treat everyone better than himself >because of Christ's sacrifice >(which I do), then it would be hypocrisy to hound and force others into >believing the same thing. Besides, history has proven that to be a very >inaffective method of evangalism. A logical, honest Christian has no reason >to use force to spread the gospel. > >Here is what I assert absolute certainty of. > 1. All men are sinners. >2. Christ died for the world. >3. I am part of the world, and am forgiven by His grace. >4. Ergo, I MUST live out my love to the people around me. > > > > I was never taught in public schools that there is no God! God was > > mentioned in Literature class, in History class, in Sociology. After >all, > > belief in God is an important subject in literarture, history and >sociology. > > Most of my classmates were church going Christians. Yes, the public > > schools do not advocate Christianity in the manner you might wish they >do, > > but again I assure you I was never taught there is no God. I never sat >in > > any class and heard a teacher say "Class, today we are going to learn >why > > there is no God." > >Well, same as with Mr. Arnold, you probably were in high school before the >Supreme Court made prayer in a school a legal offense, before the Supreme >court banned every single Bible from the public schools. Things have >changed. You ought to talk to one of the modern highschool students, ask >them what their science teacher told them about God. > > > > Concerning evolution, God could very well make the universe and the >earth > > and allow things to evolve as science indicates. > >Well, considering irreducible complexity and DNA, that's not what happened. > >Best, > >Luke Nieuwsma > > >_____________________________________________________ > List services made available by First Step Internet, > serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994. > http://www.fsr.net > mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com >ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ _________________________________________________________________ Add photos to your messages with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail From donovanarnold@hotmail.com Sun Jun 1 12:14:46 2003 From: donovanarnold@hotmail.com (Donovan Arnold) Date: Sun, 01 Jun 2003 04:14:46 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] Religious Diversity Education Message-ID:

Luke 

 You stated that "the German race in the 1930's adopted social Darwinism and explicitly stated that the Germanic race was the most evolved of the species and deserved to rule the world. It was because of Social Darwinism that WWII was started, NOT because of Christianity. (Italian Fascists also claimed that the Italian race was at the top of the spectrum.)"

This is incorrect. Hitler only espoused that garbage, he didn't believe it himself (only people that don't have a life believe this). He used the the Jews as an escape goat and to acquire wealth and labor for the war. Not to mention subjects to conduct studies for the advancement of science.  I mean come'on, he was allies with the Japanese and Middle Easterners and fighting against the British, French, Australians, US, Netherlands, Norway, Sweden, Finland, Poland, and Russians.

Social Darwinism is NOT the same as Darwinism itself. Social Darwinism was created decades after the death of the Darwin. Nor does the theory of Darwinism say that only one race will survive because it is better, it also has to do with luck. Nor does it say that one species will go extinct, just that it adapts or changes. Nor does this even apply to humans because there are not multiple races of Humans. All humans today are of the same race. Genetics may be a bit different, but we are all the same race, Neanderthals died out many years ago. All humans today are 99.4% genetically identical. Nor was this even my point.

 My point was that world leaders throughout time have claimed the religion of the people to justify their brutality. Just because Hitler, Saddam Hussein, Napoleon, Julius Cesar, and Osama all claim to be one of "God's sent" does not mean that they are one of God's sent. My point was also that you are hypocritical to say that when Hussein and Osama claim to be of God and slaughter people in the name of their "faith" that you accept that as a true proclamation of the "Muslim faith". However, when people like Hitler, and countless numbers of Kings and Queens, and other religious leaders slaughter people in the name of their "faith" in Christianity you reject it? Why do you use one standard to judge one group of people and another standard to judge another group of people? If Christianity is that truth then you should use the same standard, you botch the rules to favor what you want and call this just, when it fact it is the antithesis of just and fairness. So when you d! o this, others that are just as fanatical as you but of another faith see your injustice and hypocrisy in how you judge you give ammunition to them to disarm others trying to get people to see the righteousness of Christ.

If I knew nothing of the Muslim Faith or of the Christian Faith, and were wishing to establish a faith, I would most likely choose the Muslim faith based on the hypocritical nature that you use to judge people. Christians have slaughtered more people, own more wealth, and try to control more people then any other group of people under any other religious faith.

So why not say, people that do evil acts are of "no faith" in God and simply do so to generate greater wealth and/or power for themselves and let the true followers of  the "faiths" be the true measure of which faith is the greater faith?

>

"You stated that when you went to school, then God was recognized in public education. However, that was probably before the Supreme Court made it illegal to pray in school, before they made it illegal to read the Bible in school. Things have changed, Mr. Arnold, things have changed."

I am probably not much older then you Luke. We had computers, VCR's, and overhead projectors. Unless they no longer say the pledge of allegiance, and don't teach history, literture, government, music, reading, science, and disbanded student groups, it is unlikely they stopped teaching about a superior being. Nor was I ever prevented from praying. I could pray before classes started, before each test I took, before lunch, before recess, and after all of these. I could also pray when ever else it struck me to do so. I really doubt children are beaten or tossed out of school if they decided to pray before a test or during recess as you are proposing they do now. They can't bring in Priests, Bishops, and Cardinals to lead prayers, No, and I agree with this. If I am in a class with a majority of Mormons, or Jews, or Protestants, or Muslims, or Hindus, I would not want to pray in the same fashion as they do. I would want to pray in the manner my church taught me to do! so. Nor would I want to have to follow any faith against my will or force any other person to follow mine. It is pointless for my faith to force people, particularly children, because it is about freely doing so. If I was forced to pray another way then what I am use to, or to call my God by another name, in school I would have stood up an objected to the idea of doing so. Nor would I want my Teacher declaring that there is or isn't a God to children. They do not have the authority to do so. They are suppose to teach about subjects they are trained and certified to teach in. Priests, Bishops, and Cardinals are suppose to be teaching children about their faith in God. It is the personal responsibility of the parents to make sure this is done outside the classroom. Some things should be taught by the parents not public officials.

Luke,

How do you say the pledge of allegiance without mentioning God?

How do you teach about the "Holy Roman Empire" without mentioning God?

How do you teach about the Mayflower?

How do you teach about the Egyptian Empire?

How do you teach about Salem Witch hunts?

How do you teach about the Constitution?

How do you teach about the Popes or Martian Luther or Thomas Becket?

How do you teach about the "Divine Right of Kings"?

How do you teach anything about American, European, African, South American, Middle Eastern, or Asian History or culture when everything since the beginning of humanity revolved around the idea that there is some type of Supreme being.

Donovan J Arnold
>

Help STOP SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* From Smectymnus@aol.com Sun Jun 1 14:54:35 2003 From: Smectymnus@aol.com (Smectymnus@aol.com) Date: Sun, 01 Jun 2003 09:54:35 -0400 Subject: [Vision2020] Slander: by what standard? Message-ID: <323E83ED.10DEF70A.0CCA3BE8@aol.com> Fellow Visionaries: Jello for breakfast! Watch Moscow's favorite man of God slither, slip, and slide. Hey Wilson, according to the Bible, is it ever acceptable to knowingly make false statements about another man, even if you think he has wronged you? Please show us your "fixed" standard. Cordially, Thomas Bartnick From dale@courtneys.us Sun Jun 1 15:44:12 2003 From: dale@courtneys.us (Dale Courtney) Date: Sun, 1 Jun 2003 07:44:12 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] MSD trends In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <00a601c3284c$44892510$ca01a8c0@home> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_00A7_01C32811.982A4D10 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Donovan, =20 I'll answer your three-part question in three different Email.=20 =20 First, concerning the validity of those numbers. I received them = directly from MSD, and they had them printed out from the State Board of = Education in Boise. They are from the Board's payroll computer in Idaho by which they gather all of the statistics for the entire state. In those graphs, = there were no massaging of numbers. What you saw plotted were the final = numbers I received directly from them.=20 =20 Second, those numbers are collected for every school district in Idaho. = If there is a bias in the numbers, then there is a systematic bias across = the state. That means an argument of "well, MSD has these special things" doesn't fly. We're one of 114 school districts in the state.=20 =20 Third, concerning your question about disabilities:=20 * Why do you think that the disability rate is increasing exponentially? Why would that be? Can you tell me what the disability numbers are for Idaho and MSD?=20 * How much more does a child with disabilities cost to educate over and above a non-disabled child? (BTW, I know the answer to that one).=20 Fourth, the State of Idaho's spending only increased by a factor of 2.1 = over the same period of time. MSD was 3.7. Guess where MSD got the extra $3,111,696? Yup, local taxes have increased by that much just for MSD! =20 Fifth, concerning the fixed costs of educating a child, you could look = at the smallest school districts in Idaho to see what their budgets were, = then extrapolate from there. There are four school districts in Idaho = (Prairie; Three Creek; Arbon; and Pleasant Valley) that fall into those = categories. Of course, fixed costs can be reduced when you have a downsizing of student enrollment. When MSD reaches 50% of its previous size (around = 2008-2009), then there's no reason to maintain the same amount of fixed overhead. = That's just good business sense. Using your example, if Ford had 50% fewer = escorts purchased in 10 years, they would close a plant or two.=20 =20 Sixth, concerning the rate of inflation. That is what the discussion is = all about. By saying that education must inflate at a rate of 10% (MSD's has been inflating at 9.1% per year), we are buying into the notion that education is its own beast. I'm questioning that very logic.=20 * We see that people in the past had significantly better educations than people today (just look at the SATs/ACTs and the level of writing = that we're getting from students today verses 30 years ago. Look at the = college entrance requirements from 100 years ago verses today. Most professors = at UI couldn't pass a college entrance exam from 100 years ago!); and they did = it for a lot less money.=20 * We can look at the rate of inflation among private, non-parochial schools, and see that those are about the same as the economic inflation rate.=20 * The economic inflation rate includes labor issues (the most expensive factor in education). What we are really saying is that the = cost for educators is increasing at a rate of 3 times that of the rest of the workforce. Now there is the problem (we'll come back to that later).=20 * Also, as of this year, MSD has fallen from a 2nd tier district (size 2,500-5,000 students) to a third tier district (1,000-2,500 students). Smaller school districts don't have the luxury of the economies of scale that the larger school districts do. That means you cannot have a staff ratio commensurate with Blaine County! Next to Blaine County (the = richest county in the state), we have the second smallest student/teacher ratio = in the state. Justify that! Finally, can you tell me why we're spending 3.7 times as much (inflation-adjusted) for education today than we did 15 years ago? And = why all the correlations are backwards (test scores, enrollment, and staff)? = =20 I'll answer the other two sections later.=20 =20 Best, Dale ------=_NextPart_000_00A7_01C32811.982A4D10 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message
Donovan,
 
I'll=20 answer your three-part question in three different Email. =
 
First,=20 concerning the validity of those numbers. I received them = directly from=20 MSD, and they had them printed out from the State Board of Education in = Boise.=20 They are from the Board's payroll computer in Idaho by which they gather = all of=20 the statistics for the entire state. In those graphs, there were = no=20 massaging of numbers. What you saw plotted were the final numbers I = received directly from them.
 
Second, those numbers are collected for every school = district in=20 Idaho. If there is a bias in the numbers, then there is a systematic = bias across=20 the state. That means an argument of "well, MSD has these special = things"=20 doesn't fly. We're one of 114 school districts in the state.=20
 
Third,=20 concerning your question about disabilities:
  • Why=20 do you think that the disability rate is increasing exponentially? Why = would=20 that be? Can you tell me what the disability numbers are for Idaho and = MSD?=20
  • How=20 much more does a child with disabilities cost to educate over and = above a=20 non-disabled child? (BTW, I know the answer to that one).=20
Fourth, the State of Idaho's spending only increased by a = factor of 2.1=20 over the same period of time. MSD was 3.7. Guess where MSD got the extra = $3,111,696? Yup, local taxes have increased by that much just for = MSD!
 
Fifth,=20 concerning the fixed costs of educating a child, you could look at the = smallest=20 school districts in Idaho to see what their budgets were, then = extrapolate from=20 there. There are four school districts in Idaho (Prairie; Three Creek; = Arbon;=20 and Pleasant Valley) that fall into those categories. Of course, fixed = costs can=20 be reduced when you have a downsizing of student enrollment. When MSD = reaches=20 50% of its previous size (around 2008-2009), then there's no reason to = maintain=20 the same amount of fixed overhead. That's just good business sense. = Using your=20 example, if Ford had 50% fewer escorts purchased in 10 years, they would = close a=20 plant or two.
 
Sixth,=20 concerning the rate of inflation. That is what the discussion is = all=20 about. By saying that education must inflate at a rate of 10% = (MSD's has=20 been inflating at 9.1% per year), we are buying into the notion that = education=20 is its own beast. I'm questioning that very logic.
  • We see that people in the past = had=20 significantly better educations than people today (just look at the = SATs/ACTs=20 and the level of writing that we're getting from students today verses = 30=20 years ago. Look at the college entrance requirements from 100 years = ago verses=20 today. Most professors at UI couldn't pass a college entrance exam = from 100=20 years ago!); and they did it for a lot less money.
  • We=20 can look at the rate of inflation among private, non-parochial = schools, and=20 see that those are about the same as the economic inflation rate.=20
  • The=20 economic inflation rate includes labor issues (the most expensive = factor in=20 education). What we are really saying is that the cost for = educators is=20 increasing at a rate of 3 times that of the rest of the workforce. Now = there is the problem (we'll come back to that later).=20
  • Also,=20 as of this year, MSD has fallen from a 2nd tier district (size = 2,500-5,000=20 students) to a third tier district (1,000-2,500 students). Smaller = school=20 districts don't have the luxury of the economies of scale that the = larger=20 school districts do. That means you cannot have a staff ratio = commensurate=20 with Blaine County! Next to Blaine County (the richest county in the = state),=20 we have the second smallest student/teacher ratio in the state. = Justify=20 that!
Finally, can you tell me why we're spending 3.7 times as much=20 (inflation-adjusted) for education today than we did 15 years ago? And = why=20 all the correlations are backwards (test scores, enrollment, and = staff)?=20
 
I'll=20 answer the other two sections later.
 
Best,
Dale
------=_NextPart_000_00A7_01C32811.982A4D10-- From thansen@moscow.com Sun Jun 1 16:36:03 2003 From: thansen@moscow.com (Tom Hansen) Date: Sun, 1 Jun 2003 08:36:03 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] MSD trends In-Reply-To: <00a601c3284c$44892510$ca01a8c0@home> Message-ID: Dale Courtney stated: " . . . (BTW, I know the answer to that one)." Well, golly! ! ! I simply must cancel all my subscriptions to news magazines, cancel my subscription to the Spokesman Review, and no longer place any faith in any television news shows. I have Dale Courtney to write to. How about a "Dear Dale" column, Mr. Courtney? To actually trust other resources without checking with Dale first?? How naive of me. Go Dale Go ! ! ! Tom Hansen Moscow From dougwils@moscow.com Sun Jun 1 16:55:34 2003 From: dougwils@moscow.com (Douglas) Date: Sun, 01 Jun 2003 08:55:34 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] Slander: by what standard? In-Reply-To: <323E83ED.10DEF70A.0CCA3BE8@aol.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20030601085317.01bdc6d8@mail.moscow.com> Dear Thomas, Sorry to disappoint, but according to the Bible, making false statements about a man, even if he has wronged you, would be wicked. Cordially, Douglas Wilson At 09:54 AM 6/1/2003 -0400, you wrote: >Fellow Visionaries: > >Jello for breakfast! Watch Moscow's favorite man of God slither, slip, and >slide. > >Hey Wilson, according to the Bible, is it ever acceptable to knowingly >make false >statements about another man, even if you think he has wronged you? Please >show us >your "fixed" standard. > >Cordially, > >Thomas Bartnick > >_____________________________________________________ > List services made available by First Step Internet, > serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994. > http://www.fsr.net > mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com >ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ From donovanarnold@hotmail.com Sun Jun 1 19:09:52 2003 From: donovanarnold@hotmail.com (Donovan Arnold) Date: Sun, 01 Jun 2003 11:09:52 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] MSD trends Message-ID:

Dale,
> >

>You wrote:

"First, concerning the validity of those numbers. I received them directly

>from MSD, and they had them printed out from the State Board of Education in
>Boise. They are from the Board's payroll computer in Idaho by which they
>gather all of the statistics for the entire state. In those graphs, there
>were no massaging of numbers. What you saw plotted were the final numbers I

>received directly from them."

I was not questioning the graph plots for the costs. I know that information is accurate. I am questioning the validity of the prediction that you or anyone knows the population of students in the MSD for 2008-2009 with any certainty(I want the confidence interval for this test and variables they used). The numbers for the MSD have gone up and down by as much as 10% every decade since the 1950's when my mom was going to school here. Back then, the Catholic private school reduced the numbers for the public schools. Then the population of Moscow increased and the school eventually did not do the same percentage. Then the University population went up and down too, also effecting the number of students going to K-12. Nobody can predict the economy of the State and the University students in the year 2008-09. 

>
>Second, those numbers are collected for every school district in Idaho. If
>there is a bias in the numbers, then there is a systematic bias across the
>state. That means an argument of "well, MSD has these special things"
>doesn't fly. We're one of 114 school districts in the state.
>
>"Third, concerning your question about disabilities:
>
>* Why do you think that the disability rate is increasing
>exponentially? Why would that be? Can you tell me what the disability

>numbers are for Idaho and MSD?"

I know that in the last few years the number of students diagnosed with a disability has increased. The cost of diagnosing and treating a child with a disability has increased. I also know that government regulations have increased costs as well. In addition, the number of students with a disability is more likely now to attend a public school then in the past. 

>* How much more does a child with disabilities cost to educate over
>and above a non-disabled child? (BTW, I know the answer to that one).
>
>Fourth, the State of Idaho's spending only increased by a factor of 2.1 over
>the same period of time. MSD was 3.7. Guess where MSD got the extra

>$3,111,696? Yup, local taxes have increased by that much just for MSD!

This I agree fully with you. I am 100% against property taxes. I think it should be illegal to tax people continuously on a piece of property they had already bought and paid for and paid about 50% in interest on. In addition, this form of taxation assumes, and often falsely, that if you own property then you have money. People should be required to pay what they can afford, not be forced to buy what they already have over and over and over again.

>
>"Fifth, concerning the fixed costs of educating a child, you could look at
>the smallest school districts in Idaho to see what their budgets were, then
>extrapolate from there. There are four school districts in Idaho (Prairie;
>Three Creek; Arbon; and Pleasant Valley) that fall into those categories. Of
>course, fixed costs can be reduced when you have a downsizing of student
>enrollment. When MSD reaches 50% of its previous size (around 2008-2009),
>then there's no reason to maintain the same amount of fixed overhead. That's
>just good business sense. Using your example, if Ford had 50% fewer escorts

>purchased in 10 years, they would close a plant or two."

First, I apologize for the bad Escort example, that was poorly written and can see how you misunderstood me. However, I don't think it is a good idea to extrapolate on information from Three Creek, Arbon, and Pleasant Vally as a basis for Moscow school district. This is an entirely separate area with different problems and situations then these areas. Furthermore, "Extrapolation" is considered a fallacy in almost all mathematical equations and prediction unless there is absolutely no interference, or a vacuum, since Idaho does not exist in a vacuum (although it feels like it sometimes) this would be a fallacy to use. Second, we can't shut down the school system. It is mandated that we have a math teacher, science teacher, history teacher, english teacher, PE, and Health teacher a school building, nurse, playground facilities,cafeteria, and quite a few other things . We have to have these. Thus they are called "fixed costs". Fixed costs are the min! imum amount we can pay and still meet all the government regulations, state and local. After we meet these fixed costs we have more flexibility to decide what we need and want after that. If it costs $500,000 for the fixed costs and we have 50 children it is going to seem like a great of money is being spent on one child. On the other hand, if in another district we have to pay $500,000 in fixed costs and only $2000 per extra child and we have 150 children, guess what? The cost per child is going to seem much much less but the quality of education is actually about the same.

The MSD can't shut down anymore Junior High or High Schools, it only has one of each. It has shut down elementary schools.

>
>"Sixth, concerning the rate of inflation. That is what the discussion is all
>about. By saying that education must inflate at a rate of 10% (MSD's has
>been inflating at 9.1% per year), we are buying into the notion that

>education is its own beast. I'm questioning that very logic.

Well, I am telling you why Dale, the costs of educating a child is more then it was in the past.

Here is a list of following reasons:

Computers, software, fire regulations, ADA Regulations, federal and state regulations, building codes, safety regulations for playgrounds, food regulations, increased number of disabled students, increased number of children further behind when entering school, inflation, increased number of specialists to handle and make sure these regulations are followed, increased number of specialists to deal with new technology problems, increased number of specialists to deal with legal issues, increased number of specialists to deal with violence, social, and cultural differences, increased costs of maintaining, updating, and replacing educational technologies, increased costs for new teaching tools such as Tv's, VCR's, and overhead projectors, increased costs for construction, increased costs for bond levies, increased costs for textbooks, increased costs for teaching a wider varity of subjects such as computers, increased costs for medical coverage of school district employees, ! and increased costs for insurance, and smaller class sizes.

Now unless you want school principles to be able to regulate all these costs and social problems that are currently out of their control, there is absolutely nothing they can do about it and it is not their fault.

>"* We see that people in the past had significantly better educations"

I disagree, many disabled students were not even allowed to receive an education. WOmen were not expected to get as high of an education as men in certain fields. They did not have computers to do research or see foreign lands or learn about them unless they actually went there. They were taught Christopher Columbus found the new world. They were not taught women or Black or Native american History. They were taught Latin, which is a dead language. They didn't understand quantum physics, or cosmic notions, which didn't exist then. They were taught many things that were untrue, and fewer then 10% went on to college. Today about 25% of the adult population has about 4 years of college.  

>"than people today (just look at the SATs/ACTs and the level of writing that
>we're getting from students today verses 30 years ago. Look at the college
>entrance requirements from 100 years ago verses today. Most professors at UI
>couldn't pass a college entrance exam from 100 years ago!); and they did it"

HA HA! SAT and other standardized tests to test student abilities is the biggest freaking joke in America! Does the SAT test IQ, NO! Does it test creativity, how about dancing, singing, debate, logical thinking skills, cooking skills, computer skills, social skills, ability to draw, cultural awareness? NO! This test doesn't even cover HALF the brain. Furthermore, the test has questions that where the answers are wrong! A 12th grade student in California even found one that was wrong. It asked which one of following shapes can't be made using only a triangle shape. He cut up a bunch triangle shapes and proved that everyone of the shapes list for A) B) C) and D) you could make from a triangle. So if we are giving kids tests that are WRONG! and HAVE WRONG answers listed as the correct answers, and it doesn't test half the brian and has a statistical variance of + or - margin of six points, and a significance rating of only .9, what is the point? Furthermore, I, like about 90! % of my peers, did not give a damn about those tests. They did not effect our grade in the class. In my class here in 1992 (which you said was the highest ever rated) I didn't even study for it, not one minute, I couldn't care less. I didn't even care to read all the questions except the government portion of the test, because I loved it. I didn't know what those tests meant until my senior year when my councilor called me out of class to talk to me about my tests score and stated I ranked in the top 1-2% of the nation in the area of Government. I also know, that if you did REALLY care about those tests and the "rating of your school" you would just cheat on those scantron tests by running a #2 pencil over the black square on the on side of each question. The computer will count this as a correct answer! Furthermore, did you know that the SAT removes all the questions that most of the students get right the next year to ensure a normal distribution bell curve. Did you also ! know that some students rank in the 1st quartile range of the test one year and the next year they rank in the bottom quartile range and another student will rank in the 3rd quartile range one year and then the 1st quartile range the next year. Funny how about 50%+ of the student population gains and losses half there intelligence in just one YEAR! Either that or the test is garbage. The only thing Scantron multiple tests are good for is testing ones ability to fill in a bubble without going outside the lines. You guess and have a 25% chance, jeez, is that stupid or what!

Thanks!

Donovan J. Arnold


Tired of spam? Get advanced junk mail protection with MSN 8. From Cjsnightclub@aol.com Sun Jun 1 19:32:54 2003 From: Cjsnightclub@aol.com (Cjsnightclub@aol.com) Date: Sun, 1 Jun 2003 14:32:54 EDT Subject: [Vision2020] All it Takes Message-ID: <1a8.14ee38ef.2c0ba0d6@aol.com> --part1_1a8.14ee38ef.2c0ba0d6_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Yeah Dale! There are two of us with common sense. Thanks - keep it up, Phil Roderick --part1_1a8.14ee38ef.2c0ba0d6_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Yeah Dale! There are two of us with common sense.

Thanks - keep it up,
Phil Roderick --part1_1a8.14ee38ef.2c0ba0d6_boundary-- From sslund@moscow.com Sun Jun 1 19:42:05 2003 From: sslund@moscow.com (Saundra Lund) Date: Sun, 1 Jun 2003 11:42:05 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] MSD trends In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <004201c3286d$7fc26b20$6401a8c0@pooh> Mr. Arnold wrote: "1)What percentage of these children are disabled 15 years ago vs. today?" Well, I hate to be a cynic, but I don't think it really matters because "today's" numbers are likely to drop with the horrifying weakening of IDEA by HB 1350 (passed 4/30/03), particularly by the Shadegg Amendment which will limit the number of children referred for special education services by requiring a visit to a physician and ***state approved*** health official to certify a child as disabled. Specifically, Shadegg's Amendment stated: "Expressing the sense of Congress and finds that students are over-identified and misidentified as students with disabilities. Therefore students should not be classified as being disabled without having been judged by a physician and state health board." Yeah . . . right. Not surprisingly, Idaho's shame continues since both Otter & Simpson (both Republicans, BTW) voted in support of eroding the educational protections/rights of disabled children. It's not enough for Idaho (conservatives) to rape & pillage education on the state level -- they've got to participate in it at the national level as well. Saundra Lund Moscow, Idaho The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good people to do nothing. Edmund Burke From Cjsnightclub@aol.com Sun Jun 1 19:56:19 2003 From: Cjsnightclub@aol.com (Cjsnightclub@aol.com) Date: Sun, 1 Jun 2003 14:56:19 EDT Subject: [Vision2020] Common Sense Message-ID: <117.2440f138.2c0ba653@aol.com> --part1_117.2440f138.2c0ba653_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit It is utterly amazing to me when some people compare our area with others in regard to teachers salaries. They compare milk and bread. These geniuses need to compare some important data: 1) Most of us here live in the confines of a six and a 1/2 month economy. Not 12. 2) Number of tax payers per teacher and average incomes of those tax payers that are taxable. 3) Number of students per teacher. 4) Housing expense, ex: 2 bedroom apartment in Moscow $450.00 - $525.00. 2 bedroom apartment in Southern California (non slum) average like around here, $1,200 - 1,400.00 per month. 5) Utilities for an apartment around here runs $60-$100.00 per month. In California it is $200.00 per month without air. You do need air for 330 days a year. So that moves your utility cost to $450.00 per month. 6) Car Insurance here is 50% less expensive and sometimes more, depending on the car. I don't understand how you can really compare and put a price on the air quality. You know? It definitely has value. Living in Los Angeles I had air purifiers in my home and car because it is so bad. Just breathing the air is equivalent to smoking two packs of cigarettes a day. Crime! In those areas that you are comparing wages to our teachers is so bad some of the teachers should and probably do wear bullet proof vests and pray there car has it's tires. Or that it is even there. Most of us in Moscow could go to a large city and make 2-4 times what we earn here. There is a price we all must pay to live here. Air is good. Crime is almost non existent (thanks Dan Weaver) housing is reasonable and utilities are fairly priced. If you don't like the pay - move. You don't want to teach - don't. It is a chosen profession. You have freedom of choice. Act on it. You want big pay? Move to where you think it is big pay. When all the numbers are crunched you are going to be right here in the same position. School budget repair: 1) Class size increased to 30 students. (We had better test scores with more students per class) 2) Combine the two elementary schools into one. 3) Teachers double their Union dues. Make the Union happy. 4) All excess overhead gets pink slips. (Just like the real world. Being a teacher is no job guarantee for life. None of the rest of us have that assurance.) 5) Remaining teachers get a 15% raise. 6) No new levies! Schools must live in budget. 7) Remaining cash flow to accumulate to buy new High School and expand the student experience with computers, etc. Phil Roderick --part1_117.2440f138.2c0ba653_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable It is utterly amazing to me when some people compare o= ur area with others in regard to teachers salaries. They compare milk and br= ead. These geniuses need to compare some important data:

1) Most of us here live in the confines of a six and a 1/2 month economy. No= t 12.

2) Number of tax payers per teacher and average incomes of those tax payers=20= that are taxable.

3) Number of students per teacher.

4)  Housing expense, ex: 2 bedroom apartment in Moscow $450.00 - $525.0= 0. 2 bedroom apartment in Southern California (non slum) average like around= here, $1,200 - 1,400.00 per month.

5) Utilities for an apartment around here runs $60-$100.00 per month. In Cal= ifornia it is $200.00 per month without air. You do need air for 330 days a=20= year. So that moves your utility cost to $450.00 per month.

6) Car Insurance here is 50% less expensive and sometimes more, depending on= the car.

   I don't understand how you can really compare and put a price o= n the air quality. You know? It definitely has value. Living in Los Angeles=20= I had air purifiers in my home and car because it is so bad. Just breathing=20= the air is equivalent to smoking two packs of cigarettes a day.

   Crime! In those areas that you are comparing wages to ou= r teachers is so bad some of the teachers should and probably do wear bullet= proof vests and pray there car has it's tires. Or that it is even there.
   Most of us in Moscow could go to a large city and make 2-4 time= s what we earn here. There is a price we all must pay to live here. Air is g= ood. Crime is almost non existent (thanks Dan Weaver) housing is reasonable=20= and utilities are fairly priced.

   If you don't like the pay - move. You don't want to teach - don= 't. It is a chosen profession. You have freedom of choice. Act on it. You wa= nt big pay? Move to where you think it is big pay. When all the numbers are=20= crunched you are going to be right here in the same position.

   School budge= t repair:

1)  Class size increased to 30 students. (We had better test scores wit= h more students per class)

2) Combine the two elementary schools into one.

3) Teachers double their Union dues. Make the Union happy.

4) All excess overhead gets pink slips. (Just like the real world. Being a t= eacher is no job guarantee for life. None of the rest of us have that assura= nce.)

5) Remaining teachers get a 15% raise.

6) No new levies! Schools must live in budget.

7) Remaining cash flow to accumulate to buy new High School and expand the s= tudent experience with computers, etc.


Phil Roderick --part1_117.2440f138.2c0ba653_boundary-- From donovanarnold@hotmail.com Sun Jun 1 20:35:32 2003 From: donovanarnold@hotmail.com (Donovan Arnold) Date: Sun, 01 Jun 2003 12:35:32 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] MSD trends Message-ID:

Yeah, I know Saundra, :(

My Mom is President of the Idaho Disabilities Association. It also costs about $2000 to get tested as well and the test results are only good for about 4 years. Like people in Idaho have that kind of money. The Republicans tried about five years ago to shut down the independent living homes programs for the disabled in Idaho. My Grandmother bought one of the homes for them on 6th street here in Moscow. The Idaho Government tried to say that they could all go and live at home or learn to take care of themselves. My Mom and Uncle threatened to drop some of the disabled individuals with a group of volunteers to the homes of the congress members that voted to do so since they had no family in the state of Idaho with the economic means to take of them. After they found out they were serious about dropping people off on their door steps (some that could not even go to bathroom by themselves) they decided to keep funding the program. Some of these people are sick and would ! sooner kill the child then educate them if they thought they could get away with it and save a buck.

Donovan J. Arnold

 

>From: "Saundra Lund"
>To: "'Donovan Arnold'" , ,
>Subject: RE: [Vision2020] MSD trends
>Date: Sun, 1 Jun 2003 11:42:05 -0700
>
>Mr. Arnold wrote:
>"1)What percentage of these children are disabled 15 years ago vs.
>today?"
>
>Well, I hate to be a cynic, but I don't think it really matters because
>"today's" numbers are likely to drop with the horrifying weakening of
>IDEA by HB 1350 (passed 4/30/03), particularly by the Shadegg Amendment
>which will limit the number of children referred for special education
>services by requiring a visit to a physician and ***state approved***
>health official to certify a child as disabled. Specifically, Shadegg's
>Amendment stated:
>"Expressing the sense of Congress and finds that students are
>over-identified and misidentified as students with disabilities.
>Therefore students should not be classified as being disabled without
>having been judged by a physician and state health board."
>
>Yeah . . . right.
>
>Not surprisingly, Idaho's shame continues since both Otter & Simpson
>(both Republicans, BTW) voted in support of eroding the educational
>protections/rights of disabled children. It's not enough for Idaho
>(conservatives) to rape & pillage education on the state level --
>they've got to participate in it at the national level as well.
>
>
>Saundra Lund
>Moscow, Idaho
>
>The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good people to
>do nothing.
>Edmund Burke
>

MSN 8 with e-mail virus protection service: 2 months FREE* From donovanarnold@hotmail.com Sun Jun 1 23:25:06 2003 From: donovanarnold@hotmail.com (Donovan Arnold) Date: Sun, 01 Jun 2003 15:25:06 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] Common Sense Message-ID:

Lets Follow Phil Roderick's Logic to repair the MSD based on the his following statements:

Phil Wrote: "School budget repair:

1) Class size increased to 30 students. (We had better test scores with more students per class)"

Then why stop here Phil at 30 if: Large Class size = better test scores?

Lets pack those kids in like sardines. How about we make the each grade one giant class. This will send the class test scores sky high!

Phil Wrote: "2) Combine the two elementary schools into one."

Great Idea! This will work too if we have 100 students per class. Who gives a crap about fire regulations, RIGHT PHIL? Let those little brats burn if they can't squeeze outta da building in time, besides, less children means less school and that means LESS TAXES! What about room for children in wheelchairs? Who cares about this either huh, they can just peer in through the window outside over the heads of the other 99 students. If it bothers the kid in the wheelchair oh well, they shouda thought about that before getting into one. They don't need enough bathrooms either, the boys can just go outside. Cafeteria space, no problem either, they can all eat outside too, this will toughen them up in winter and make the food last longer as they try to chew threw a frozen corndog(Why corndogs? well they are cheap and we save having to pay TAXES).

Phil Wrote: "3) Teachers double their Union dues. Make the Union happy."

Yes the Unions would deserve this especially if your plan makes it through.

Phil Wrote: "4) All excess overhead gets pink slips. (Just like the real world. Being a teacher is no job guarantee for life. None of the rest of us have that assurance.)"

Gosh Phil, I am not sure we should spend money on pink slips, won't this raise TAXES? A pink slip costs about 5 cents a piece and means about .000001 cents per Moscow resident, aren't they paying enough? Lets just fire the teachers, we only need a few and it will increase test scores.

Phil Wrote: "5) Remaining teachers get a 15% raise."

Both of them will be so pleased Phil and grateful for your just treatment despite the 16 fold in work load you generated for them! 

Phil wrote: "6) No new levies! Schools must live in budget."

Yeah! Lets screw democracy, I mean if 66% + of the people want to vote and fund education so their children have a future, NO WAY MAN! I mean look at schools run by Saddam, no levies were ever put up. Those kids were forced to learn or ELSE! It is clear that countries like Iraq and China have superior educational system and we can owe it all to the elimination of allowing residences of the community to increase funding for education.

Phil Wrote: "7) Remaining cash flow to accumulate to buy new High School and expand the student experience with computers, etc."

Now here I am a little confused! Why would we build a new high school when first of all we have a vacant elementary school (see Phil Roderick logic # 2 solution)? Second, larger class sizes and less funding result in higher test scores so why build more class space? And third, why would we want computers when TEST SCORES for children have gone way down since computers were introduced into the main stream school system?

Here are few other suggestion to help the school system along using "Phil Roderick Logic"!

8) Eliminate electricity, we don't need electricity, people learned better and had higher TEST SCORES when electricity was not in schools. Light a candle.

9) Eliminate running water. Why do we need this in school, we have a nice clean creek nearby. If they really need water we can just run a hose from some nearby buildings. We had higher TEST SCORES before running water.

10) Stop buying textbooks, I mean has Math really changed in the last ten years? If population of schools increase lets just make them share a book. We had higher TEST SCORES before texbooks anyway, oh wait! Maybe we didn't on  that one.

11) Get rid of buses. Make the kids walk or ride a bike, it is only about maybe 2 miles from any house to any school. Who cares about safety. Test scores were higher before we had buses anyway. We had higher TEST SCORES before buses.

12) Get rid of playgrounds and recreation facilities. They get enough exercise walking to and from school without buses. If they want to play ball they can do so on their own time. Not sure about higher TEST SCORES thought.

13) Get rid of all support staff, janitors, secretaries, principles and others and let the teachers and students take care of the school.

and Finally,

14) Stop teachers and education staff from flushing $100 bills down the toilet. $100 bills cost about $100 a peice ($120 if it goes through the MSD). Toilet paper should be used instead.

The best part of this plan is that allows us to be greedy and self centered individuals not to be TAXED with a guilt free conscious because their TEST SCORES will be higher. I mean just because generations of individuals worked very hard and paid extraordinary amounts of money to make sure we got an education doesn't not mean we owe one thing to the society that helped us succeed. American life is about taking all you can and screwing over the future of countless numbers of children so that I can have a better life right NOW. Never mind that millions of Americans spend more on pet food, porn, beer, cigarettes and illegal drugs then the future of our children. Never mind the federal government spends about $26 Billion on education but $400 billion on weapons to kill unsuspecting women and children halfway across the world. We need to make sure we can by more porn, more beer, more pet food, more cigarettes, more illegal drugs, and more nuclear weapons to make sure! we can blow the world up 12x over instead of a mere 10x now while pretending to be innocent good willed Christians, it is appearance that counts, not my actions. And where better to take the resources to do this then children that don't understand what we are doing to them and are completely helpless to stop us even if they did. They can't even vote and don't contribute a dime to the American economy, how so very unpatriotic and selfish of them!

Donovan J Arnold

 

>From: Cjsnightclub@aol.com
>To: vision2020@moscow.com
>Subject: [Vision2020] Common Sense
>Date: Sun, 1 Jun 2003 14:56:19 EDT
>
>It is utterly amazing to me when some people compare our area with others in
>regard to teachers salaries. They compare milk and bread. These geniuses need
>to compare some important data:
>
>1) Most of us here live in the confines of a six and a 1/2 month economy. Not
>12.
>
>2) Number of tax payers per teacher and average incomes of those tax payers
>that are taxable.
>
>3) Number of students per teacher.
>
>4) Housing expense, ex: 2 bedroom apartment in Moscow $450.00 - $525.00. 2
>bedroom apartment in Southern California (non slum) average like around here,
>$1,200 - 1,400.00 per month.
>
>5) Utilities for an apartment around here runs $60-$100.00 per month. In
>California it is $200.00 per month without air. You do need air for 330 days a
>year. So that moves your utility cost to $450.00 per month.
>
>6) Car Insurance here is 50% less expensive and sometimes more, depending on
>the car.
>
> I don't understand how you can really compare and put a price on the air
>quality. You know? It definitely has value. Living in Los Angeles I had air
>purifiers in my home and car because it is so bad. Just breathing the air is
>equivalent to smoking two packs of cigarettes a day.
>
> Crime! In those areas that you are comparing wages to our teachers is so
>bad some of the teachers should and probably do wear bullet proof vests and
>pray there car has it's tires. Or that it is even there.
>
> Most of us in Moscow could go to a large city and make 2-4 times what we
>earn here. There is a price we all must pay to live here. Air is good. Crime is
>almost non existent (thanks Dan Weaver) housing is reasonable and utilities
>are fairly priced.
>
> If you don't like the pay - move. You don't want to teach - don't. It is a
>chosen profession. You have freedom of choice. Act on it. You want big pay?
>Move to where you think it is big pay. When all the numbers are crunched you
>are going to be right here in the same position.
>
> School budget repair:
>
>1) Class size increased to 30 students. (We had better test scores with more
>students per class)
>
>2) Combine the two elementary schools into one.
>
>3) Teachers double their Union dues. Make the Union happy.
>
>4) All excess overhead gets pink slips. (Just like the real world. Being a
>teacher is no job guarantee for life. None of the rest of us have that
>assurance.)
>
>5) Remaining teachers get a 15% raise.
>
>6) No new levies! Schools must live in budget.
>
>7) Remaining cash flow to accumulate to buy new High School and expand the
>student experience with computers, etc.
>
>
>Phil Roderick

STOP MORE SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* From jdanahy@turbonet.com Mon Jun 2 02:49:21 2003 From: jdanahy@turbonet.com (John Danahy) Date: Sun, 1 Jun 2003 18:49:21 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] Rumor Control In-Reply-To: <000801c32816$24b4dc10$cc70e4ce@robbie> Message-ID: <003501c328a9$335a5d10$e274e4ce@laurie3zo89bgq> In this city, sometimes rumor is news first!! I suspect that there are a number of school district employees who could forward that "rumor" to the HS principal for his comment. There are also CQE folks who monitor this list who could get a response. There are also board members who monitor this list, and who could respond, if they thought communicating with the public outside of a preset structure was a good thing. John -----Original Message----- From: vision2020-admin@moscow.com [mailto:vision2020-admin@moscow.com] On Behalf Of Prof. Robbie Storla Sent: Sunday, June 01, 2003 1:17 AM To: 'Mark Rounds'; vision2020@moscow.com Subject: RE: [Vision2020] Rumor Control Has anyone sent the high school principal an e-mail asking him about this and gotten his response about this issue. Just a thought, as no one likes rumors going around about things. RES -----Original Message----- From: vision2020-admin@moscow.com [mailto:vision2020-admin@moscow.com] On Behalf Of Mark Rounds Sent: Friday, May 30, 2003 1:09 PM To: vision2020@moscow.com Subject: [Vision2020] Rumor Control I have heard through the grape vine that the Moscow High Principal invited the Potlatch Basketball Coach down for what amounted to a job inteview recently before the selection committee got a look at this individual. The actual job opening is for a math teacher and it is also my understanding that while this individual has an enviable record as a basketball coach, his teaching skills in math are not first rate. Is this just a rumor or is there some substance to it? If it is true, I would hope that our priorities are for a better math education rather than winning a few more basketball games. Mark Rounds _____________________________________________________ List services made available by First Step Internet, serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994. http://www.fsr.net mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com ????????????????????????????????????????????????????? _____________________________________________________ List services made available by First Step Internet, serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994. http://www.fsr.net mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ From johnbharrell@yahoo.com Mon Jun 2 04:38:11 2003 From: johnbharrell@yahoo.com (John Harrell) Date: Sun, 1 Jun 2003 20:38:11 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Vision2020] MSD trends In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030602033811.91308.qmail@web13405.mail.yahoo.com> Mr. Donovan Arnold wrote: "Some of these people are sick and would ! sooner kill the child then educate them if they thought they could get away with it and save a buck." Boy do I agree with you there! Actually this has been going on for some time, about 40 million I believe. Cheers! John Harrell --- Donovan Arnold wrote: --------------------------------- Yeah, I know Saundra, :( My Mom is President of the Idaho Disabilities Association. It also costs about $2000 to get tested as well and the test results are only good for about 4 years. Like people in Idaho have that kind of money. The Republicans tried about five years ago to shut down the independent living homes programs for the disabled in Idaho. My Grandmother bought one of the homes for them on 6th street here in Moscow. The Idaho Government tried to say that they could all go and live at home or learn to take care of themselves. My Mom and Uncle threatened to drop some of the disabled individuals with a group of volunteers to the homes of the congress members that voted to do so since they had no family in the state of Idaho with the economic means to take of them. After they found out they were serious about dropping people off on their door steps (some that could not even go to bathroom by themselves) they decided to keep funding the program. Some of these people are sick and would ! sooner kill the child then educate them if they thought they could get away with it and save a buck. Donovan J. Arnold >From: "Saundra Lund" >To: "'Donovan Arnold'" , , >Subject: RE: [Vision2020] MSD trends >Date: Sun, 1 Jun 2003 11:42:05 -0700 > >Mr. Arnold wrote: >"1)What percentage of these children are disabled 15 years ago vs. >today?" > >Well, I hate to be a cynic, but I don't think it really matters because >"today's" numbers are likely to drop with the horrifying weakening of >IDEA by HB 1350 (passed 4/30/03), particularly by the Shadegg Amendment >which will limit the number of children referred for special education >services by requiring a visit to a physician and ***state approved*** >health official to certify a child as disabled. Specifically, Shadegg's >Amendment stated: >"Expressing the sense of Congress and finds that students are >over-identified and misidentified as students with disabilities. >Therefore students should not be classified as being disabled without >having been judged by a physician and state health board." > >Yeah . . . right. > >Not surprisingly, Idaho's shame continues since both Otter & Simpson >(both Republicans, BTW) voted in support of eroding the educational >protections/rights of disabled children. It's not enough for Idaho >(conservatives) to rape & pillage education on the state level -- >they've got to participate in it at the national level as well. > > >Saundra Lund >Moscow, Idaho > >The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good people to >do nothing. >Edmund Burke > --------------------------------- MSN 8 with e-mail virus protection service: 2 months FREE*_____________________________________________________ List services made available by First Step Internet, serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994. http://www.fsr.net mailto:Vision2020@moscow.comŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Calendar - Free online calendar with sync to Outlook(TM). http://calendar.yahoo.com From johnbharrell@yahoo.com Mon Jun 2 04:56:36 2003 From: johnbharrell@yahoo.com (John Harrell) Date: Sun, 1 Jun 2003 20:56:36 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Vision2020] Common Sense In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030602035636.62738.qmail@web13407.mail.yahoo.com> Mr. Donovan Arnold, "Never mind the federal government spends about $26 Billion on education.." That is an awful lot of money the federal government is spending. I am sure you went to school. Can you show me where in the constitution the federal government is authorized to be spending this money on education? Then, can you show me where in the UN Charter, it is authorized to be spending money on education? So my next question would be, if the federal government can be spending this money on education, why not the UN? I am curious as to where we draw the line, if one should even be drawn, regarding who (or what entity) should be spending money on education. Cheers! John Harrell --- Donovan Arnold wrote: --------------------------------- Lets Follow Phil Roderick's Logic to repair the MSD based on the his following statements: Phil Wrote: "School budget repair: 1) Class size increased to 30 students. (We had better test scores with more students per class)" Then why stop here Phil at 30 if: Large Class size = better test scores? Lets pack those kids in like sardines. How about we make the each grade one giant class. This will send the class test scores sky high! Phil Wrote: "2) Combine the two elementary schools into one." Great Idea! This will work too if we have 100 students per class. Who gives a crap about fire regulations, RIGHT PHIL? Let those little brats burn if they can't squeeze outta da building in time, besides, less children means less school and that means LESS TAXES! What about room for children in wheelchairs? Who cares about this either huh, they can just peer in through the window outside over the heads of the other 99 students. If it bothers the kid in the wheelchair oh well, they shouda thought about that before getting into one. They don't need enough bathrooms either, the boys can just go outside. Cafeteria space, no problem either, they can all eat outside too, this will toughen them up in winter and make the food last longer as they try to chew threw a frozen corndog(Why corndogs? well they are cheap and we save having to pay TAXES). Phil Wrote: "3) Teachers double their Union dues. Make the Union happy." Yes the Unions would deserve this especially if your plan makes it through. Phil Wrote: "4) All excess overhead gets pink slips. (Just like the real world. Being a teacher is no job guarantee for life. None of the rest of us have that assurance.)" Gosh Phil, I am not sure we should spend money on pink slips, won't this raise TAXES? A pink slip costs about 5 cents a piece and means about .000001 cents per Moscow resident, aren't they paying enough? Lets just fire the teachers, we only need a few and it will increase test scores. Phil Wrote: "5) Remaining teachers get a 15% raise." Both of them will be so pleased Phil and grateful for your just treatment despite the 16 fold in work load you generated for them! Phil wrote: "6) No new levies! Schools must live in budget." Yeah! Lets screw democracy, I mean if 66% + of the people want to vote and fund education so their children have a future, NO WAY MAN! I mean look at schools run by Saddam, no levies were ever put up. Those kids were forced to learn or ELSE! It is clear that countries like Iraq and China have superior educational system and we can owe it all to the elimination of allowing residences of the community to increase funding for education. Phil Wrote: "7) Remaining cash flow to accumulate to buy new High School and expand the student experience with computers, etc." Now here I am a little confused! Why would we build a new high school when first of all we have a vacant elementary school (see Phil Roderick logic # 2 solution)? Second, larger class sizes and less funding result in higher test scores so why build more class space? And third, why would we want computers when TEST SCORES for children have gone way down since computers were introduced into the main stream school system? Here are few other suggestion to help the school system along using "Phil Roderick Logic"! 8) Eliminate electricity, we don't need electricity, people learned better and had higher TEST SCORES when electricity was not in schools. Light a candle. 9) Eliminate running water. Why do we need this in school, we have a nice clean creek nearby. If they really need water we can just run a hose from some nearby buildings. We had higher TEST SCORES before running water. 10) Stop buying textbooks, I mean has Math really changed in the last ten years? If population of schools increase lets just make them share a book. We had higher TEST SCORES before texbooks anyway, oh wait! Maybe we didn't on that one. 11) Get rid of buses. Make the kids walk or ride a bike, it is only about maybe 2 miles from any house to any school. Who cares about safety. Test scores were higher before we had buses anyway. We had higher TEST SCORES before buses. 12) Get rid of playgrounds and recreation facilities. They get enough exercise walking to and from school without buses. If they want to play ball they can do so on their own time. Not sure about higher TEST SCORES thought. 13) Get rid of all support staff, janitors, secretaries, principles and others and let the teachers and students take care of the school. and Finally, 14) Stop teachers and education staff from flushing $100 bills down the toilet. $100 bills cost about $100 a peice ($120 if it goes through the MSD). Toilet paper should be used instead. The best part of this plan is that allows us to be greedy and self centered individuals not to be TAXED with a guilt free conscious because their TEST SCORES will be higher. I mean just because generations of individuals worked very hard and paid extraordinary amounts of money to make sure we got an education doesn't not mean we owe one thing to the society that helped us succeed. American life is about taking all you can and screwing over the future of countless numbers of children so that I can have a better life right NOW. Never mind that millions of Americans spend more on pet food, porn, beer, cigarettes and illegal drugs then the future of our children. Never mind the federal government spends about $26 Billion on education but $400 billion on weapons to kill unsuspecting women and children halfway across the world. We need to make sure we can by more porn, more beer, more pet food, more cigarettes, more illegal drugs, and more nuclear weapons to make sure! we can blow the world up 12x over instead of a mere 10x now while pretending to be innocent good willed Christians, it is appearance that counts, not my actions. And where better to take the resources to do this then children that don't understand what we are doing to them and are completely helpless to stop us even if they did. They can't even vote and don't contribute a dime to the American economy, how so very unpatriotic and selfish of them! Donovan J Arnold >From: Cjsnightclub@aol.com >To: vision2020@moscow.com >Subject: [Vision2020] Common Sense >Date: Sun, 1 Jun 2003 14:56:19 EDT > >It is utterly amazing to me when some people compare our area with others in >regard to teachers salaries. They compare milk and bread. These geniuses need >to compare some important data: > >1) Most of us here live in the confines of a six and a 1/2 month economy. Not >12. > >2) Number of tax payers per teacher and average incomes of those tax payers >that are taxable. > >3) Number of students per teacher. > >4) Housing expense, ex: 2 bedroom apartment in Moscow $450.00 - $525.00. 2 >bedroom apartment in Southern California (non slum) average like around here, >$1,200 - 1,400.00 per month. > >5) Utilities for an apartment around here runs $60-$100.00 per month. In >California it is $200.00 per month without air. You do need air for 330 days a >year. So that moves your utility cost to $450.00 per month. > >6) Car Insurance here is 50% less expensive and sometimes more, depending on >the car. > > I don't understand how you can really compare and put a price on the air >quality. You know? It definitely has value. Living in Los Angeles I had air >purifiers in my home and car because it is so bad. Just breathing the air is >equivalent to smoking two packs of cigarettes a day. > > Crime! In those areas that you are comparing wages to our teachers is so >bad some of the teachers should and probably do wear bullet proof vests and >pray there car has it's tires. Or that it is even there. > > Most of us in Moscow could go to a large city and make 2-4 times what we >earn here. There is a price we all must pay to live here. Air is good. Crime is >almost non existent (thanks Dan Weaver) housing is reasonable and utilities >are fairly priced. > > If you don't like the pay - move. You don't want to teach - don't. It is a >chosen profession. You have freedom of choice. Act on it. You want big pay? >Move to where you think it is big pay. When all the numbers are crunched you >are going to be right here in the same position. > > School budget repair: > >1) Class size increased to 30 students. (We had better test scores with more >students per class) > >2) Combine the two elementary schools into one. > >3) Teachers double their Union dues. Make the Union happy. > >4) All excess overhead gets pink slips. (Just like the real world. Being a >teacher is no job guarantee for life. None of the rest of us have that >assurance.) > >5) Remaining teachers get a 15% raise. > >6) No new levies! Schools must live in budget. > >7) Remaining cash flow to accumulate to buy new High School and expand the >student experience with computers, etc. > > >Phil Roderick --------------------------------- STOP MORE SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE*_____________________________________________________ List services made available by First Step Internet, serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994. http://www.fsr.net mailto:Vision2020@moscow.comŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Calendar - Free online calendar with sync to Outlook(TM). http://calendar.yahoo.com From Cjsnightclub@aol.com Mon Jun 2 06:15:09 2003 From: Cjsnightclub@aol.com (Cjsnightclub@aol.com) Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2003 01:15:09 EDT Subject: [Vision2020] Common Sense Message-ID: <1f1.a054764.2c0c375d@aol.com> --part1_1f1.a054764.2c0c375d_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I did not waste my time reading this post from this extremely high IQ person. Aren't most classrooms built to suit 30 children?? I sure hope this fellow is not on the school board or a teacher ....scary thought! A Math teacher, huh? Phil Roderick --part1_1f1.a054764.2c0c375d_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I did not waste my time reading this post from this ex= tremely high IQ person. Aren't most classrooms built to suit 30 children?? I= sure hope this fellow is not on the school board or a teacher ....scary tho= ught! A Math teacher, huh?

Phil Roderick --part1_1f1.a054764.2c0c375d_boundary-- From donovanarnold@hotmail.com Mon Jun 2 06:20:02 2003 From: donovanarnold@hotmail.com (Donovan Arnold) Date: Sun, 01 Jun 2003 22:20:02 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] Fed Educational Funding Message-ID:

Well John,

As I am sure you already know. Minors do not get their "right" to a free education from the US Constitution, they get it from the constitutions of the various 50 states and WDC. The Federal Government can authorize any spending on anything it wishes provided that the funding is passed in bill form and follows the articles and amendments of the constitution. It could easily be argued, and has been successfully in courts that Article 1, Section 8, Clause 18 of the US Constitution allows Congress the ability to establish programs and departments and to fund them. The tenth amendment also states that all rights not defined or prohibited by the constitution are reserved to the people. Or in other words, the people can make laws that are not in direct violation with US Constitution.

In terms of funding the UN. The President has the authority to make laws and treaties with the advise and consent of the Senate. Nothing prohibits that treaty from including cash providing they get the amount approved from the House of Representatives or is taken from some prior approved budget by Congress.

In terms of what the UN Charter says I don't really care to look that up because it is irrelevant considering that the US does not, nor ever has, paid the money to the UN as it agreed to do. Furthermore, the UN has a budget of only about $5 billion. Which isn't really anything in comparison to the world GP.

Thanks!

Donovan J Arnold   

 

>From: John Harrell

>To: Donovan Arnold , Cjsnightclub@aol.com, vision2020@moscow.com
>Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Common Sense
>Date: Sun, 1 Jun 2003 20:56:36 -0700 (PDT)
>
>Mr. Donovan Arnold,
>
>"Never mind the federal government spends about $26 Billion on education.."
>
>That is an awful lot of money the federal government is spending. I am sure
>you went to school. Can you show me where in the constitution the federal
>government is authorized to be spending this money on education? Then, can
>you show me where in the UN Charter, it is authorized to be spending money on
>education? So my next question would be, if the federal government can be
>spending this money on education, why not the UN? I am curious as to where
>we draw the line, if one should even be drawn, regarding who (or what entity)
>should be spending money on education.
>
>Cheers!
>John Harrell
>
>
>--- Donovan Arnold wrote:
>
>---------------------------------
>
>Lets Follow Phil Roderick's Logic to repair the MSD based on the his following
>statements:
>
>
>
>
>Phil Wrote: "School budget repair:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>1) Class size increased to 30 students. (We had better test scores with more students per
>class)"
>
>
>
>
>Then why stop here Phil at 30 if: Large Class size = better test scores?
>
>
>
>
>Lets pack those kids in like sardines. How about we make the each grade one giant class.
>This will send the class test scores sky high!
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>Phil Wrote: "2) Combine the two elementary schools into one."
>
>
>
>
>Great Idea! This will work too if we have 100 students per class. Who gives a crap about
>fire regulations, RIGHT PHIL? Let those little brats burn if they can't squeeze outta da
>building in time, besides, less children means less school and that means LESS TAXES!
>What about room for children in wheelchairs? Who cares about this either huh, they can
>just peer in through the window outside over the heads of the other 99 students. If it
>bothers the kid in the wheelchair oh well, they shouda thought about that before getting
>into one. They don't need enough bathrooms either, the boys can just go outside.
>Cafeteria space, no problem either, they can all eat outside too, this will toughen them
>up in winter and make the food last longer as they try to chew threw a frozen corndog(Why
>corndogs? well they are cheap and we save having to pay TAXES).
>
>
>
>
>Phil Wrote: "3) Teachers double their Union dues. Make the Union happy."
>
>
>
>
>Yes the Unions would deserve this especially if your plan makes it through.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>Phil Wrote: "4) All excess overhead gets pink slips. (Just like the real world. Being a
>teacher is no job guarantee for life. None of the rest of us have that assurance.)"
>
>
>
>
>Gosh Phil, I am not sure we should spend money on pink slips, won't this raise TAXES? A
>pink slip costs about 5 cents a piece and means about .000001 cents per Moscow resident,
>aren't they paying enough? Lets just fire the teachers, we only need a few and it will
>increase test scores.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>Phil Wrote: "5) Remaining teachers get a 15% raise."
>
>
>
>
>Both of them will be so pleased Phil and grateful for your just treatment despite the 16
>fold in work load you generated for them!
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>Phil wrote: "6) No new levies! Schools must live in budget."
>
>
>
>
>Yeah! Lets screw democracy, I mean if 66% + of the people want to vote and fund education
>so their children have a future, NO WAY MAN! I mean look at schools run by Saddam, no
>levies were ever put up. Those kids were forced to learn or ELSE! It is clear that
>countries like Iraq and China have superior educational system and we can owe it all to
>the elimination of allowing residences of the community to increase funding for
>education.
>
>
>
>
>Phil Wrote: "7) Remaining cash flow to accumulate to buy new High School and expand the
>student experience with computers, etc."
>
>
>
>
>Now here I am a little confused! Why would we build a new high school when first of all
>we have a vacant elementary school (see Phil Roderick logic # 2 solution)? Second, larger
>class sizes and less funding result in higher test scores so why build more class space?
>And third, why would we want computers when TEST SCORES for children have gone way down
>since computers were introduced into the main stream school system?
>
>
>
>
>Here are few other suggestion to help the school system along using "Phil Roderick
>Logic"!
>
>
>
>
>8) Eliminate electricity, we don't need electricity, people learned better and had higher
>TEST SCORES when electricity was not in schools. Light a candle.
>
>
>
>
>9) Eliminate running water. Why do we need this in school, we have a nice clean creek
>nearby. If they really need water we can just run a hose from some nearby buildings. We
>had higher TEST SCORES before running water.
>
>
>
>
>10) Stop buying textbooks, I mean has Math really changed in the last ten years? If
>population of schools increase lets just make them share a book. We had higher TEST
>SCORES before texbooks anyway, oh wait! Maybe we didn't on that one.
>
>
>
>
>11) Get rid of buses. Make the kids walk or ride a bike, it is only about maybe 2 miles
>from any house to any school. Who cares about safety. Test scores were higher before we
>had buses anyway. We had higher TEST SCORES before buses.
>
>
>
>
>12) Get rid of playgrounds and recreation facilities. They get enough exercise walking to
>and from school without buses. If they want to play ball they can do so on their own
>time. Not sure about higher TEST SCORES thought.
>
>
>
>
>13) Get rid of all support staff, janitors, secretaries, principles and others and let
>the teachers and students take care of the school.
>
>and Finally,
>
>14) Stop teachers and education staff from flushing $100 bills down the toilet. $100
>bills cost about $100 a peice ($120 if it goes through the MSD). Toilet paper should be
>used instead.
>
>The best part of this plan is that allows us to be greedy and self centered individuals
>not to be TAXED with a guilt free conscious because their TEST SCORES will be higher. I
>mean just because generations of individuals worked very hard and paid extraordinary
>amounts of money to make sure we got an education doesn't not mean we owe one thing to
>the society that helped us succeed. American life is about taking all you can and
>screwing over the future of countless numbers of children so that I can have a better
>life right NOW. Never mind that millions of Americans spend more on pet food, porn, beer,
>cigarettes and illegal drugs then the future of our children. Never mind the federal
>government spends about $26 Billion on education but $400 billion on weapons to kill
>unsuspecting women and children halfway across the world. We need to make sure we can by
>more porn, more beer, more pet food, more cigarettes, more illegal drugs, and more
>nuclear weapons to make sure! we can blow the world up 12x over instead of a mere 10x
>now while pretending to be innocent good willed Christians, it is appearance that counts,
>not my actions. And where better to take the resources to do this then children that
>don't understand what we are doing to them and are completely helpless to stop us even if
>they did. They can't even vote and don't contribute a dime to the American economy, how
>so very unpatriotic and selfish of them!
>
>
>
>
>Donovan J Arnold
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> >From: Cjsnightclub@aol.com
>
>
>
> >To: vision2020@moscow.com
>
>
>
> >Subject: [Vision2020] Common Sense
>
>
>
> >Date: Sun, 1 Jun 2003 14:56:19 EDT
>
>
>
> >
>
>
>
> >It is utterly amazing to me when some people compare our area with others in
>
>
>
> >regard to teachers salaries. They compare milk and bread. These geniuses need
>
>
>
> >to compare some important data:
>
>
>
> >
>
>
>
> >1) Most of us here live in the confines of a six and a 1/2 month economy. Not
>
>
>
> >12.
>
>
>
> >
>
>
>
> >2) Number of tax payers per teacher and average incomes of those tax payers
>
>
>
> >that are taxable.
>
>
>
> >
>
>
>
> >3) Number of students per teacher.
>
>
>
> >
>
>
>
> >4) Housing expense, ex: 2 bedroom apartment in Moscow $450.00 - $525.00. 2
>
>
>
> >bedroom apartment in Southern California (non slum) average like around here,
>
>
>
> >$1,200 - 1,400.00 per month.
>
>
>
> >
>
>
>
> >5) Utilities for an apartment around here runs $60-$100.00 per month. In
>
>
>
> >California it is $200.00 per month without air. You do need air for 330 days a
>
>
>
> >year. So that moves your utility cost to $450.00 per month.
>
>
>
> >
>
>
>
> >6) Car Insurance here is 50% less expensive and sometimes more, depending on
>
>
>
> >the car.
>
>
>
> >
>
>
>
> > I don't understand how you can really compare and put a price on the air
>
>
>
> >quality. You know? It definitely has value. Living in Los Angeles I had air
>
>
>
> >purifiers in my home and car because it is so bad. Just breathing the air is
>
>
>
> >equivalent to smoking two packs of cigarettes a day.
>
>
>
> >
>
>
>
> > Crime! In those areas that you are comparing wages to our teachers is so
>
>
>
> >bad some of the teachers should and probably do wear bullet proof vests and
>
>
>
> >pray there car has it's tires. Or that it is even there.
>
>
>
> >
>
>
>
> > Most of us in Moscow could go to a large city and make 2-4 times what we
>
>
>
> >earn here. There is a price we all must pay to live here. Air is good. Crime is
>
>
>
> >almost non existent (thanks Dan Weaver) housing is reasonable and utilities
>
>
>
> >are fairly priced.
>
>
>
> >
>
>
>
> > If you don't like the pay - move. You don't want to teach - don't. It is a
>
>
>
> >chosen profession. You have freedom of choice. Act on it. You want big pay?
>
>
>
> >Move to where you think it is big pay. When all the numbers are crunched you
>
>
>
> >are going to be right here in the same position.
>
>
>
> >
>
>
>
> > School budget repair:
>
>
>
> >
>
>
>
> >1) Class size increased to 30 students. (We had better test scores with more
>
>
>
> >students per class)
>
>
>
> >
>
>
>
> >2) Combine the two elementary schools into one.
>
>
>
> >
>
>
>
> >3) Teachers double their Union dues. Make the Union happy.
>
>
>
> >
>
>
>
> >4) All excess overhead gets pink slips. (Just like the real world. Being a
>
>
>
> >teacher is no job guarantee for life. None of the rest of us have that
>
>
>
> >assurance.)
>
>
>
> >
>
>
>
> >5) Remaining teachers get a 15% raise.
>
>
>
> >
>
>
>
> >6) No new levies! Schools must live in budget.
>
>
>
> >
>
>
>
> >7) Remaining cash flow to accumulate to buy new High School and expand the
>
>
>
> >student experience with computers, etc.
>
>
>
> >
>
>
>
> >
>
>
>
> >Phil Roderick
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>---------------------------------
>STOP MORE SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months
>FREE*_____________________________________________________ List services made available
>by First Step Internet, serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
> http://www.fsr.net
>mailto:Vision2020@moscow.comŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ
>
>
>__________________________________
>Do you Yahoo!?
>Yahoo! Calendar - Free online calendar with sync to Outlook(TM).
>http://calendar.yahoo.com

Protect your PC - Click here for McAfee.com VirusScan Online From dale@courtneys.us Mon Jun 2 12:00:56 2003 From: dale@courtneys.us (Dale Courtney) Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2003 04:00:56 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] MSD trends In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <002601c328f6$3e6a8520$ca01a8c0@home> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0027_01C328BB.920BAD20 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Donovan, =20 A brief reply:=20 * The validity of my prediction for 2008-2009? I'm using an historical analysis starting with the 1997 data that takes all the data points = since into account. You'll have to wait and see if I'm right. Let me tell you = this much: MSD did their enrollment projections ( http://www.sd281.k12.id.us/GeneralInformation/files/Enrollment.pdf). = Yours truly was off by 3%. MSD was off by 216%. In fact, MSD predicted to have = as many students at the end of 2004 as they are starting with now (i.e., = they were off by a whole year). Not a great one-year prediction!=20 * Regardless of whether MSD reaches my predicted 50% point in 2009, that doesn't invalidate the rest of my data.=20 * There has been a lot of research done about the cost of educating children with disabilities. This is the standard liberal's bug-a-boo for = the cost of education. However, as expensive as it is, it doesn't account = for a 3.7 times increase in total spending. If you would like, I can put you = in touch with those research findings.=20 * Your line "people should be taxed based on what they can afford" sounds strangely like "From each according to their ability, to each according to their needs". Now, where have I heard that before...=20 * Your fixed costs examples don't work. There are many school systems in Idaho that do not have all those things you require. Furthermore, as = MSD continues to get smaller, there are things that we can no longer afford. We're not a tier-1 school, though we're paying as though we were! (and = not getting the results to boot!).=20 * Your examples about the cost of educating going up are interesting, but ultimately unhelpful. Private schools have been well able to control spending significantly under that of the government schools; and they = have the results to show for it...=20 * I never said that SAT/ACT was an indicator of IQ. However, just because SAT/ACT scores are inappropriately used doesn't mean that they = are inappropriate as an assessment. What they stipulate they measure. They = have stated objectives, and the validity and reliability of those tests = compute those stated objectives. As it is, there's a high corollary between ACT scores and a college student's likelihood of doing well and graduating. = It is also one of the few objective tests that can be given. So, no, they = don't measure IQ (nothing does). But what they do measure is an appropriate assessment.=20 One final question to you: what is the major concern about having a = monopoly in charge of education? A monopoly can set the price of the product to whatever they want because their is no competition to drive it down. And that's what we see with government education. If Americans treated = education like every other market good, we would have choice. Choice is always = good; and choice drives down prices and increases quality.=20 =20 Most liberals (rightly so) scream about monopolies. Yet, when it comes = to probably the most important aspect of our society, liberals insist on = having a government provided monopoly. Why is that?=20 =20 Best, Dale -----Original Message----- From: vision2020-admin@moscow.com [mailto:vision2020-admin@moscow.com] = On Behalf Of Donovan Arnold Sent: Sunday, 01 June, 2003 11:10 To: dale@courtneys.us; vision2020@moscow.com Subject: RE: [Vision2020] MSD trends Dale, > >=20 >You wrote: "First, concerning the validity of those numbers. I received them = directly=20 >from MSD, and they had them printed out from the State Board of = Education in=20 >Boise. They are from the Board's payroll computer in Idaho by which = they=20 >gather all of the statistics for the entire state. In those graphs, = there=20 >were no massaging of numbers. What you saw plotted were the final = numbers I >received directly from them." I was not questioning the graph plots for the costs. I know that = information is accurate. I am questioning the validity of the prediction that you or anyone knows the population of students in the MSD for 2008-2009 with = any certainty(I want the confidence interval for this test and variables = they used). The numbers for the MSD have gone up and down by as much as 10% = every decade since the 1950's when my mom was going to school here. Back then, = the Catholic private school reduced the numbers for the public schools. Then = the population of Moscow increased and the school eventually did not do the = same percentage. Then the University population went up and down too, also effecting the number of students going to K-12. Nobody can predict the economy of the State and the University students in the year 2008-09.=20 >=20 >Second, those numbers are collected for every school district in Idaho. = If=20 >there is a bias in the numbers, then there is a systematic bias across = the=20 >state. That means an argument of "well, MSD has these special things"=20 >doesn't fly. We're one of 114 school districts in the state.=20 >=20 >"Third, concerning your question about disabilities:=20 >=20 >* Why do you think that the disability rate is increasing=20 >exponentially? Why would that be? Can you tell me what the disability=20 >numbers are for Idaho and MSD?" I know that in the last few years the number of students diagnosed with = a disability has increased. The cost of diagnosing and treating a child = with a disability has increased. I also know that government regulations have increased costs as well. In addition, the number of students with a disability is more likely now to attend a public school then in the = past.=20 >* How much more does a child with disabilities cost to educate over=20 >and above a non-disabled child? (BTW, I know the answer to that one).=20 >=20 >Fourth, the State of Idaho's spending only increased by a factor of 2.1 over=20 >the same period of time. MSD was 3.7. Guess where MSD got the extra=20 >$3,111,696? Yup, local taxes have increased by that much just for MSD!=20 This I agree fully with you. I am 100% against property taxes. I think = it should be illegal to tax people continuously on a piece of property they = had already bought and paid for and paid about 50% in interest on. In = addition, this form of taxation assumes, and often falsely, that if you own = property then you have money. People should be required to pay what they can = afford, not be forced to buy what they already have over and over and over = again.=20 >=20 >"Fifth, concerning the fixed costs of educating a child, you could look = at=20 >the smallest school districts in Idaho to see what their budgets were, = then >extrapolate from there. There are four school districts in Idaho = (Prairie;=20 >Three Creek; Arbon; and Pleasant Valley) that fall into those = categories. Of=20 >course, fixed costs can be reduced when you have a downsizing of = student=20 >enrollment. When MSD reaches 50% of its previous size (around = 2008-2009),=20 >then there's no reason to maintain the same amount of fixed overhead. That's=20 >just good business sense. Using your example, if Ford had 50% fewer = escorts >purchased in 10 years, they would close a plant or two." First, I apologize for the bad Escort example, that was poorly written = and can see how you misunderstood me. However, I don't think it is a good = idea to extrapolate on information from Three Creek, Arbon, and Pleasant = Vally as a basis for Moscow school district. This is an entirely separate area = with different problems and situations then these areas. Furthermore, "Extrapolation" is considered a fallacy in almost all mathematical = equations and prediction unless there is absolutely no interference, or a vacuum, since Idaho does not exist in a vacuum (although it feels like it = sometimes) this would be a fallacy to use. Second, we can't shut down the school system. It is mandated that we have a math teacher, science teacher, = history teacher, english teacher, PE, and Health teacher a school building, = nurse, playground facilities,cafeteria, and quite a few other things . We have = to have these. Thus they are called "fixed costs". Fixed costs are the min! imum amount we can pay and still meet all the government regulations, = state and local. After we meet these fixed costs we have more flexibility to decide what we need and want after that. If it costs $500,000 for the = fixed costs and we have 50 children it is going to seem like a great of money = is being spent on one child. On the other hand, if in another district we = have to pay $500,000 in fixed costs and only $2000 per extra child and we = have 150 children, guess what? The cost per child is going to seem much much = less but the quality of education is actually about the same.=20 The MSD can't shut down anymore Junior High or High Schools, it only has = one of each. It has shut down elementary schools. >=20 >"Sixth, concerning the rate of inflation. That is what the discussion = is all=20 >about. By saying that education must inflate at a rate of 10% (MSD's = has=20 >been inflating at 9.1% per year), we are buying into the notion that=20 >education is its own beast. I'm questioning that very logic. Well, I am telling you why Dale, the costs of educating a child is more = then it was in the past.=20 Here is a list of following reasons: Computers, software, fire regulations, ADA Regulations, federal and = state regulations, building codes, safety regulations for playgrounds, food regulations, increased number of disabled students, increased number of children further behind when entering school, inflation, increased = number of specialists to handle and make sure these regulations are followed, increased number of specialists to deal with new technology problems, increased number of specialists to deal with legal issues, increased = number of specialists to deal with violence, social, and cultural differences, increased costs of maintaining, updating, and replacing educational technologies, increased costs for new teaching tools such as Tv's, = VCR's, and overhead projectors, increased costs for construction, increased = costs for bond levies, increased costs for textbooks, increased costs for = teaching a wider varity of subjects such as computers, increased costs for = medical coverage of school district employees, ! and increased costs for = insurance, and smaller class sizes. Now unless you want school principles to be able to regulate all these = costs and social problems that are currently out of their control, there is absolutely nothing they can do about it and it is not their fault.=20 >"* We see that people in the past had significantly better educations" I disagree, many disabled students were not even allowed to receive an education. WOmen were not expected to get as high of an education as men = in certain fields. They did not have computers to do research or see = foreign lands or learn about them unless they actually went there. They were = taught Christopher Columbus found the new world. They were not taught women or Black or Native american History. They were taught Latin, which is a = dead language. They didn't understand quantum physics, or cosmic notions, = which didn't exist then. They were taught many things that were untrue, and = fewer then 10% went on to college. Today about 25% of the adult population has about 4 years of college. =20 >"than people today (just look at the SATs/ACTs and the level of writing that=20 >we're getting from students today verses 30 years ago. Look at the = college=20 >entrance requirements from 100 years ago verses today. Most professors = at UI=20 >couldn't pass a college entrance exam from 100 years ago!); and they = did it"=20 HA HA! SAT and other standardized tests to test student abilities is the biggest freaking joke in America! Does the SAT test IQ, NO! Does it test creativity, how about dancing, singing, debate, logical thinking skills, cooking skills, computer skills, social skills, ability to draw, = cultural awareness? NO! This test doesn't even cover HALF the brain. Furthermore, = the test has questions that where the answers are wrong! A 12th grade = student in California even found one that was wrong. It asked which one of = following shapes can't be made using only a triangle shape. He cut up a bunch = triangle shapes and proved that everyone of the shapes list for A) B) C) and D) = you could make from a triangle. So if we are giving kids tests that are = WRONG! and HAVE WRONG answers listed as the correct answers, and it doesn't = test half the brian and has a statistical variance of + or - margin of six points, and a significance rating of only .9, what is the point? Furthermore, I, like about 90! % of my peers, did not give a damn about those tests. They did not effect our grade in the class. In my class = here in 1992 (which you said was the highest ever rated) I didn't even study for = it, not one minute, I couldn't care less. I didn't even care to read all the questions except the government portion of the test, because I loved it. = I didn't know what those tests meant until my senior year when my = councilor called me out of class to talk to me about my tests score and stated I ranked in the top 1-2% of the nation in the area of Government. I also = know, that if you did REALLY care about those tests and the "rating of your school" you would just cheat on those scantron tests by running a #2 = pencil over the black square on the on side of each question. The computer will count this as a correct answer! Furthermore, did you know that the SAT removes all the questions that most of the students get right the next = year to ensure a normal distribution bell curve. Did you also ! know that = some students rank in the 1st quartile range of the test one year and the = next year they rank in the bottom quartile range and another student will = rank in the 3rd quartile range one year and then the 1st quartile range the next year. Funny how about 50%+ of the student population gains and losses = half there intelligence in just one YEAR! Either that or the test is garbage. = The only thing Scantron multiple tests are good for is testing ones ability = to fill in a bubble without going outside the lines. You guess and have a = 25% chance, jeez, is that stupid or what! Thanks! Donovan J. Arnold _____ =20 Tired of spam? Get advanced junk = mail protection with MSN 8. = _____________________________________________________ List services made available by First Step Internet, serving the = communities of the Palouse since 1994. http://www.fsr.net = mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com =AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF= =AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF= =AF=AF=AF=20 ------=_NextPart_000_0027_01C328BB.920BAD20 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message
Donovan,
 
A brief=20 reply:
  • The=20 validity of my prediction for 2008-2009? I'm using an historical = analysis=20 starting with the 1997 data that takes all the data points since into = account.=20 You'll have to wait and see if I'm right. Let me tell you this much: = MSD did=20 their enrollment projections (http://www.sd281.k12.id.us/GeneralInformation/files/Enrol= lment.pdf). Yours truly was off by 3%. MSD was off by 216%. In = fact, MSD=20 predicted to have as many students at the end of 2004 as they are = starting=20 with now (i.e., they were off by a whole year). Not a great one-year=20 prediction!
  • Regardless=20 of whether MSD reaches my predicted 50% point in 2009, that doesn't = invalidate=20 the rest of my data.
  • There has=20 been a lot of research done about the cost of educating children with=20 disabilities. This is the standard liberal's bug-a-boo for the cost of = education. However, as expensive as it is, it doesn't account for a = 3.7 times=20 increase in total spending. If you would like, I can put you in = touch=20 with those research findings.
  • Your line=20 "people should be taxed based on what they can afford" sounds = strangely=20 like  "From each according to their ability, to each according to = their=20 needs". Now, where have I heard that before...=20
  • Your fixed=20 costs examples don't work. There are many school systems in Idaho that = do not=20 have all those things you require. Furthermore, as MSD continues to = get=20 smaller, there are things that we can no longer afford. We're not a = tier-1=20 school, though we're paying as though we were! (and not getting the = results to=20 boot!).
  • Your=20 examples about the cost of educating going up are interesting, but = ultimately=20 unhelpful. Private schools have been well able to control spending=20 significantly under that of the government schools; and they have the = results=20 to show for it...=20
  • I never said=20 that SAT/ACT was an indicator of IQ. However, just because SAT/ACT = scores are=20 inappropriately used doesn't mean that they are inappropriate as an=20 assessment. What they stipulate they measure. They have stated = objectives, and=20 the validity and reliability of those tests compute those stated = objectives.=20 As it is, there's a high corollary between ACT scores and a = college=20 student's likelihood of doing well and graduating. It is also one of = the few=20 objective tests that can be given. So, no, they don't measure IQ = (nothing=20 does). But what they do measure is an appropriate assessment.=20
One final=20 question to you: what is the major concern about having a monopoly in = charge of=20 education? A monopoly can set the price of the product to whatever = they=20 want because their is no competition to drive it down. And that's what = we see=20 with government education. If Americans treated education like every = other=20 market good, we would have choice. Choice is always good; and choice = drives down=20 prices and increases quality.
 
Most liberals=20 (rightly so) scream about monopolies. Yet, when it comes to probably the = most=20 important aspect of our society, liberals insist on having a = government=20 provided monopoly. Why is that?
 
Best,
Dale
-----Original Message-----
From:=20 vision2020-admin@moscow.com [mailto:vision2020-admin@moscow.com] On = Behalf=20 Of Donovan Arnold
Sent: Sunday, 01 June, 2003=20 11:10
To: dale@courtneys.us;=20 vision2020@moscow.com
Subject: RE: [Vision2020] MSD=20 trends

Dale,
> >

>You wrote:

"First, concerning the validity of those numbers. I received them = directly=20

>from MSD, and they had them printed out from the State = Board of=20 Education in=20
>Boise. They are from the Board's payroll computer in = Idaho by=20 which they=20
>gather all of the statistics for the entire state. In = those=20 graphs, there=20
>were no massaging of numbers. What you saw plotted were = the=20 final numbers I=20

>received directly from them."

I was not questioning the graph plots for the costs. I = know that=20 information is accurate. I am questioning the validity of the = prediction that=20 you or anyone knows the population of students in the MSD for = 2008-2009 with=20 any certainty(I want the confidence interval for this test and = variables they=20 used). The numbers for the MSD have gone up and down by as much = as 10%=20 every decade since the 1950's when my mom was going to school here. = Back then,=20 the Catholic private school reduced the numbers for the public = schools. Then=20 the population of Moscow increased and the school eventually did = not do=20 the same percentage. Then the University population went up and down = too, also=20 effecting the number of students going to K-12. Nobody can = predict=20 the economy of the State and the University students in the year=20 2008-09. 

>=20
>Second, those numbers are collected for every school = district=20 in Idaho. If=20
>there is a bias in the numbers, then there is a = systematic bias=20 across the=20
>state. That means an argument of "well, MSD has these = special=20 things"=20
>doesn't fly. We're one of 114 school districts in the = state.=20
>=20
>"Third, concerning your question about disabilities:=20
>=20
>* Why do you think that the disability rate is = increasing=20
>exponentially? Why would that be? Can you tell me what = the=20 disability=20

>numbers are for Idaho and MSD?"

I know that in the last few years the number of students diagnosed = with a=20 disability has increased. The cost of diagnosing and = treating a=20 child with a disability has increased. I also know that = government=20 regulations have increased costs as well. In addition, the number of = students=20 with a disability is more likely now to attend a public = school then=20 in the past. 

>* How much more does a child with disabilities cost to = educate=20 over=20
>and above a non-disabled child? (BTW, I know the answer = to that=20 one).=20
>=20
>Fourth, the State of Idaho's spending only increased by = a=20 factor of 2.1 over=20
>the same period of time. MSD was 3.7. Guess where MSD = got the=20 extra=20

>$3,111,696? Yup, local taxes have increased by that much just = for MSD!=20

This I agree fully with you. I am 100% against property taxes. I = think it=20 should be illegal to tax people continuously on a piece of property = they had=20 already bought and paid for and paid about 50% in interest on. In = addition,=20 this form of taxation assumes, and often falsely, that if you own = property=20 then you have money. People should be required to pay what they can = afford,=20 not be forced to buy what they already have over and over and over = again.

>=20
>"Fifth, concerning the fixed costs of educating a = child, you=20 could look at=20
>the smallest school districts in Idaho to see what = their=20 budgets were, then=20
>extrapolate from there. There are four school districts = in=20 Idaho (Prairie;=20
>Three Creek; Arbon; and Pleasant Valley) that fall into = those=20 categories. Of=20
>course, fixed costs can be reduced when you have a = downsizing=20 of student=20
>enrollment. When MSD reaches 50% of its previous size = (around=20 2008-2009),=20
>then there's no reason to maintain the same amount of = fixed=20 overhead. That's=20
>just good business sense. Using your example, if Ford = had 50%=20 fewer escorts=20

>purchased in 10 years, they would close a plant or two."

First, I apologize for the bad Escort example, that was poorly = written=20 and can see how you misunderstood me. However, I don't think it is a = good idea=20 to extrapolate on information from Three Creek, Arbon, and = Pleasant Vally=20 as a basis for Moscow school district. This is an entirely separate = area with=20 different problems and situations then these areas. Furthermore,=20 "Extrapolation" is considered a fallacy in almost all mathematical = equations=20 and prediction unless there is absolutely no interference, or a = vacuum,=20 since Idaho does not exist in a vacuum (although it feels like it = sometimes)=20 this would be a fallacy to use. Second, we can't shut down the school = system.=20 It is mandated that we have a math teacher, science teacher, history=20 teacher, english teacher, PE, and Health teacher a school = building,=20 nurse, playground facilities,cafeteria, and quite a few other things . = We have to have these. Thus they are called "fixed costs". Fixed = costs=20 are the min! imum amount we can pay and still meet all the government=20 regulations, state and local. After we meet these fixed = costs we=20 have more flexibility to decide what we need and want after that. If = it costs=20 $500,000 for the fixed costs and we have 50 children it is going to = seem like=20 a great of money is being spent on one child. On the other hand,=20 if in another district we have to pay $500,000 in fixed costs and = only=20 $2000 per extra child and we have 150 children, guess what? The cost = per child=20 is going to seem much much less but the quality of education is = actually about=20 the same.

The MSD can't shut down anymore Junior High or High Schools, = it only=20 has one of each. It has shut down elementary schools.

>=20
>"Sixth, concerning the rate of inflation. That is what = the=20 discussion is all=20
>about. By saying that education must inflate at a rate = of 10%=20 (MSD's has=20
>been inflating at 9.1% per year), we are buying into = the notion=20 that=20

>education is its own beast. I'm questioning that very = logic.

Well, I am telling you why Dale, the costs of educating a child is = more=20 then it was in the past.

Here is a list of following reasons:

Computers, software, fire regulations, ADA Regulations, federal and = state=20 regulations, building codes, safety regulations for playgrounds, food=20 regulations, increased number of disabled students, increased number = of=20 children further behind when entering school, inflation, increased = number of=20 specialists to handle and make sure these regulations are followed, = increased=20 number of specialists to deal with new technology problems, increased = number=20 of specialists to deal with legal issues, increased number of = specialists to=20 deal with violence, social, and cultural differences, increased costs = of=20 maintaining, updating, and replacing educational technologies, = increased costs=20 for new teaching tools such as Tv's, VCR's, and overhead projectors, = increased=20 costs for construction, increased costs for bond levies, increased = costs for=20 textbooks, increased costs for teaching a wider varity of subjects = such as=20 computers, increased costs for medical coverage of school district = employees,=20 ! and increased costs for insurance, and smaller class sizes.

Now unless you want school principles to be able to regulate all = these=20 costs and social problems that are currently out of their control, = there is=20 absolutely nothing they can do about it and it is not their fault. =

>"* We see that people in the past had significantly better=20 educations"

I disagree, many disabled students were not even allowed to receive = an=20 education. WOmen were not expected to get as high of an education as = men=20 in certain fields. They did not have computers to do research or = see=20 foreign lands or learn about them unless they actually went = there. They=20 were taught Christopher Columbus found the new world. They=20 were not taught women or Black or Native american History. They = were=20 taught Latin, which is a dead language. They didn't understand = quantum=20 physics, or cosmic notions, which didn't exist then. They were taught = many=20 things that were untrue, and fewer then 10% went on to college. Today = about=20 25% of the adult population has about 4 years of college.  

>"than people today (just look at the SATs/ACTs and the = level of=20 writing that=20
>we're getting from students today verses 30 years ago. = Look at=20 the college=20
>entrance requirements from 100 years ago verses today. = Most=20 professors at UI=20
>couldn't pass a college entrance exam from 100 years = ago!); and=20 they did it"=20

HA HA! SAT and other standardized tests to test student abilities = is the=20 biggest freaking joke in America! Does the SAT test IQ, NO! Does it = test=20 creativity, how about dancing, singing, debate, logical thinking = skills,=20 cooking skills, computer skills, social skills, ability to draw, = cultural=20 awareness? NO! This test doesn't even cover HALF the brain. = Furthermore, the=20 test has questions that where the answers are wrong! A 12th grade = student in=20 California even found one that was wrong. It asked which one of = following=20 shapes can't be made using only a triangle shape. He cut up a bunch = triangle=20 shapes and proved that everyone of the shapes list for A) B) C) and D) = you=20 could make from a triangle. So if we are giving kids tests that are = WRONG! and=20 HAVE WRONG answers listed as the correct answers, and it doesn't test = half the=20 brian and has a statistical variance of + or - margin of six points, = and a=20 significance rating of only .9, what is the point? Furthermore, I, = like about=20 90! % of my peers, did not give a damn about those tests. They did not = effect=20 our grade in the class. In my class here in 1992 (which you said was = the=20 highest ever rated) I didn't even study for it, not one minute, I = couldn't=20 care less. I didn't even care to read all the questions except the = government=20 portion of the test, because I loved it. I didn't know what those = tests meant=20 until my senior year when my councilor called me out of class to talk = to me=20 about my tests score and stated I ranked in the top 1-2% of the nation = in the=20 area of Government. I also know, that if you did REALLY care about = those tests=20 and the "rating of your school" you would just cheat on those scantron = tests=20 by running a #2 pencil over the black square on the on side of each = question.=20 The computer will count this as a correct answer! Furthermore, did you = know=20 that the SAT removes all the questions that most of the students get = right the=20 next year to ensure a normal distribution bell curve. Did you also ! = know that=20 some students rank in the 1st quartile range of the test one year and = the next=20 year they rank in the bottom quartile range and another student will = rank in=20 the 3rd quartile range one year and then the 1st quartile range the = next year.=20 Funny how about 50%+ of the student population gains and losses half = there=20 intelligence in just one YEAR! Either that or the test is garbage. The = only=20 thing Scantron multiple tests are good for is testing ones ability to = fill in=20 a bubble without going outside the lines. You guess and have a 25% = chance,=20 jeez, is that stupid or what!

Thanks!

Donovan J. Arnold


Tired of spam? Get advanced junk=20 mail protection with MSN 8.=20 _____________________________________________________ List services = made=20 available by First Step Internet, serving the communities of the = Palouse since=20 1994. http://www.fsr.net mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com=20 = =AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF= =AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF= =AF=AF=AF=20 ------=_NextPart_000_0027_01C328BB.920BAD20-- From thansen@moscow.com Mon Jun 2 13:59:36 2003 From: thansen@moscow.com (Tom Hansen) Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2003 05:59:36 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] Fed Educational Funding In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Donovan Arnold states: "The tenth amendment also states that all rights not defined or prohibited by the constitution are reserved to the people. Or in other words, the people can make laws that are not in direct violation with US Constitution." Mr. Arnold: You obviously failed to read Article VI of the US Constitution. It reads: " . . . This Constitution, and the laws of the United States which shall be made in pursuance thereof; and all treaties made, or which shall be made, under the authority of the United States, shall be the supreme law of the land; and the judges in every state shall be bound thereby, anything in the Constitution or laws of any State to the contrary notwithstanding." I believe that this is not a contradiciton. We had discussed this in a couple of US History courses I have attended. Our forefathrs' intentions were, to put it in laymens' terms, to relay all rights not deined within the US Constitution to the individual states, provided that any laws or constitutions established within the individual states are not in violation with the US Constitution, the "supreme law of the land". Tom Hansen Moscow From dale@courtneys.us Mon Jun 2 14:19:57 2003 From: dale@courtneys.us (Dale Courtney) Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2003 06:19:57 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] Educational Diversity In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <003d01c32909$aaa37770$ca01a8c0@home> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_003E_01C328CE.FE449F70 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sunil, =20 I got it, I got it.=20 =20 If you want true educational diversity, pay extra for it and leave the government schools. If you're not wealthy (or not willing to sacrifice = that $8,700+ MSD education you were taxed for), then stay with the = government.=20 =20 No, trust me. I really do understand it.=20 =20 Best, Dale -----Original Message----- From: Sunil Ramalingam [mailto:sunilramalingam@hotmail.com]=20 Sent: Friday, 30 May, 2003 16:20 To: dale@courtneys.us Subject: RE: [Vision2020] Educational Diversity Outside the public schools, Dale, outside the public schools. >From: "Dale Courtney"=20 >To: "'Sunil Ramalingam'" , ,=20 >Subject: RE: [Vision2020] Educational Diversity=20 >Date: Fri, 30 May 2003 16:17:30 -0700=20 >=20 >Touch=E9, Sunil. If we want educational diversity, we need to look = outside the=20 >government schools.=20 ------=_NextPart_000_003E_01C328CE.FE449F70 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message
Sunil,
 
I got=20 it, I got it.
 
If you=20 want true educational diversity, pay extra for it and leave the = government=20 schools. If you're not wealthy (or not willing to sacrifice that $8,700+ = MSD=20 education you were taxed for), then stay with the government.=20
 
No,=20 trust me. I really do understand it.
 
Best,
Dale
-----Original Message-----
From: = Sunil Ramalingam=20 [mailto:sunilramalingam@hotmail.com]
Sent: Friday, 30 May, = 2003=20 16:20
To: dale@courtneys.us
Subject: RE: = [Vision2020]=20 Educational Diversity

Outside the public schools, Dale, outside the public = schools.

>From: "Dale Courtney"
>To: "'Sunil Ramalingam'" , = ,
>Subject: RE: [Vision2020] Educational Diversity=20
>Date: Fri, 30 May 2003 16:17:30 -0700=20
>=20
>Touch=E9, Sunil. If we want educational diversity, we = need to=20 look outside the=20
>government schools.=20
------=_NextPart_000_003E_01C328CE.FE449F70-- From donovanarnold@hotmail.com Mon Jun 2 20:28:11 2003 From: donovanarnold@hotmail.com (Donovan Arnold) Date: Mon, 02 Jun 2003 12:28:11 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] Fed Educational Funding Message-ID:

Mr Hansen,

I strongly suggest that you take another history course with a different teacher or start talking to some other people in the area of the law. Article VI simple states that all laws on the federal level are higher then laws made in the states in that they are not in violation of the Constitution. The Constitution DOES reserve certain rights to states. The federal government can't pass laws over or in violation of this even though its laws are higher. If you knew your history you would also know that the X amendment was created to clarify this "supposed contradiction" that people were concerned about between the IX Amendment and Article VI of the Constitution, question being,"How can states have rights if all laws by the Federal Government are higher then the states laws?". Rather then giving you a 3 month debate of the Constitution and the rights involved, I simple gave the short version. Just as if someone asked if Alcohol was legal in the United States. I coul! d simple say "no" or I could give you a history between Jan. 16, 1919 and Dec. 5, 1933 and all the legalities behind it. I choose to make it as uncomplicated as possible for you. If you want I really get into all the complications for you and list out about 5 court cases of boring legal documentation. It would take about 5 days to read it all. If you want it let me know, it takes about five minutes to get it for you. One other comment, "Our Forefathers" did not all have the same intentions. Some wanted a federalist government, others wanted a very weak federalist government and strong state governments. Thus created the Federalist Party and the Anti-Federalist Party.

Thanks!

Donovan J Arnold

>From: "Tom Hansen"
>Reply-To:
>To: "Donovan Arnold" , , ,
>Subject: RE: [Vision2020] Fed Educational Funding
>Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2003 05:59:36 -0700
>
>Donovan Arnold states:
>
>"The tenth amendment also states that all rights not defined or prohibited
>by the constitution are reserved to the people. Or in other words, the
>people can make laws that are not in direct violation with US Constitution."
>
>Mr. Arnold: You obviously failed to read Article VI of the US Constitution.
>It reads:
>
>" . . . This Constitution, and the laws of the United States which shall be
>made in pursuance thereof; and all treaties made, or which shall be made,
>under the authority of the United States, shall be the supreme law of the
>land; and the judges in every state shall be bound thereby, anything in the
>Constitution or laws of any State to the contrary notwithstanding."
>
>I believe that this is not a contradiction. We had discussed this in a
>couple of US History courses I have attended. Our forefathers' intentions
>were, to put it in laymens' terms, to relay all rights not deined within the
>US Constitution to the individual states, provided that any laws or
>constitutions established within the individual states are not in violation
>with the US Constitution, the "supreme law of the land".
>
>Tom Hansen
>Moscow
>

Help STOP SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* From ted_moffett@hotmail.com Mon Jun 2 21:36:55 2003 From: ted_moffett@hotmail.com (Ted Moffett) Date: Mon, 02 Jun 2003 20:36:55 +0000 Subject: [Vision2020] Public vs. Private Schools and Parental Involvement Message-ID: Dale, et. al. Why colored text for your vision2020 posts? It increases the size of the e-mail, which for those of us with limited inbox storage is an issue. Any parent that wishes, if they can afford it, or find the funding somehow, can send their child to a private school, of which there are numerous options offering a wide variety of approaches to education. How are the public schools a government provided "monopoly?" This is like saying that because there are government funded programs to help pay medical care for SOME children, the government is running a government provided monopoly over doctors and related medical industries. Also, all comparisons between public and private schools must be examined in the context of how each type of school filters the children that attend through the types of families and economic background the children come from. On average, parents who send their children to private schools are significantly more involved and concerned about their children's education, and more financially well off, than parents who send their children to public schools. This is sad, but I believe it is correct. The involvement of parents in a child's education can make a tremendous difference in how well and how much a child learns. Even the difference between a family that reads books to each other with children's involvement on a daily basis, and a family that does not do this, is tremendous. Often the public schools are expected to educate children who are seriously impeded in their educational development by what happens away from school. This is an difficult situation. Children sent to private schools on the whole, I repeat, are not nearly as educationally impeded away from school as children sent to public schools. Public schools must take children in, with some exceptions, while private schools do not have the same legal mandate to take any and all children at their doorstep. Many parents think of the public schools as taxpayer funded babysitting, even parents who are financially above the lower classes. Educational disadvantages are not always linked to economics. These parents often expect the public schools to do the whole job of education, while they give little attention to their children's intellectual development. In this ongoing vision2020 debate about public vs. private schools, I think the variable of the parents involvement in the education of their own children, a very significant variable, has been overlooked. I believe it can by itself make the difference between a child who performs well in school and one who does not. This might be one of the best arguments for private schools: parents who pay separately (not via taxes) for their own child's education are more motivated to be involved in that education themselves when they see the money come out of their own pay as a separate expense. Of course, I may have this backwards, insofar as the fact that they pay for a private school shows that before they started to pay they were more motivated to provide a quality education for their child. Here is a thought experiment: what if all public schools were closed, and all the children in public schools transferred to a variety of private schools, their education being paid by government vouchers to the private schools. According to Dale's arguments, the private schools could give a better education for less money. But what would really happen? Would we see a significant drop in the performance of the private schools? Would they be forced to raise the costs of education to compensate for the influx of difficult students, with parents who are less involved? Ted >From: "Dale Courtney" >To: >Subject: RE: [Vision2020] MSD trends >Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2003 04:00:56 -0700 > >Donovan, > >A brief reply: > >* The validity of my prediction for 2008-2009? I'm using an historical >analysis starting with the 1997 data that takes all the data points since >into account. You'll have to wait and see if I'm right. Let me tell you >this >much: MSD did their enrollment projections ( > >http://www.sd281.k12.id.us/GeneralInformation/files/Enrollment.pdf). Yours >truly was off by 3%. MSD was off by 216%. In fact, MSD predicted to have as >many students at the end of 2004 as they are starting with now (i.e., they >were off by a whole year). Not a great one-year prediction! > >* Regardless of whether MSD reaches my predicted 50% point in 2009, >that doesn't invalidate the rest of my data. > >* There has been a lot of research done about the cost of educating >children with disabilities. This is the standard liberal's bug-a-boo for >the >cost of education. However, as expensive as it is, it doesn't account for a >3.7 times increase in total spending. If you would like, I can put you in >touch with those research findings. > >* Your line "people should be taxed based on what they can afford" >sounds strangely like "From each according to their ability, to each >according to their needs". Now, where have I heard that before... > >* Your fixed costs examples don't work. There are many school systems >in Idaho that do not have all those things you require. Furthermore, as MSD >continues to get smaller, there are things that we can no longer afford. >We're not a tier-1 school, though we're paying as though we were! (and not >getting the results to boot!). > >* Your examples about the cost of educating going up are interesting, >but ultimately unhelpful. Private schools have been well able to control >spending significantly under that of the government schools; and they have >the results to show for it... > >* I never said that SAT/ACT was an indicator of IQ. However, just >because SAT/ACT scores are inappropriately used doesn't mean that they are >inappropriate as an assessment. What they stipulate they measure. They have >stated objectives, and the validity and reliability of those tests compute >those stated objectives. As it is, there's a high corollary between ACT >scores and a college student's likelihood of doing well and graduating. It >is also one of the few objective tests that can be given. So, no, they >don't >measure IQ (nothing does). But what they do measure is an appropriate >assessment. > >One final question to you: what is the major concern about having a >monopoly >in charge of education? A monopoly can set the price of the product to >whatever they want because their is no competition to drive it down. And >that's what we see with government education. If Americans treated >education >like every other market good, we would have choice. Choice is always good; >and choice drives down prices and increases quality. > >Most liberals (rightly so) scream about monopolies. Yet, when it comes to >probably the most important aspect of our society, liberals insist on >having >a government provided monopoly. Why is that? > >Best, >Dale > >-----Original Message----- >From: vision2020-admin@moscow.com [mailto:vision2020-admin@moscow.com] On >Behalf Of Donovan Arnold >Sent: Sunday, 01 June, 2003 11:10 >To: dale@courtneys.us; vision2020@moscow.com >Subject: RE: [Vision2020] MSD trends > > > >Dale, > > > > > >You wrote: > >"First, concerning the validity of those numbers. I received them directly > > >from MSD, and they had them printed out from the State Board of Education >in > >Boise. They are from the Board's payroll computer in Idaho by which they > >gather all of the statistics for the entire state. In those graphs, there > >were no massaging of numbers. What you saw plotted were the final numbers >I > > > >received directly from them." > >I was not questioning the graph plots for the costs. I know that >information >is accurate. I am questioning the validity of the prediction that you or >anyone knows the population of students in the MSD for 2008-2009 with any >certainty(I want the confidence interval for this test and variables they >used). The numbers for the MSD have gone up and down by as much as 10% >every >decade since the 1950's when my mom was going to school here. Back then, >the >Catholic private school reduced the numbers for the public schools. Then >the >population of Moscow increased and the school eventually did not do the >same >percentage. Then the University population went up and down too, also >effecting the number of students going to K-12. Nobody can predict the >economy of the State and the University students in the year 2008-09. > > > > >Second, those numbers are collected for every school district in Idaho. >If > >there is a bias in the numbers, then there is a systematic bias across >the > >state. That means an argument of "well, MSD has these special things" > >doesn't fly. We're one of 114 school districts in the state. > > > >"Third, concerning your question about disabilities: > > > >* Why do you think that the disability rate is increasing > >exponentially? Why would that be? Can you tell me what the disability > > >numbers are for Idaho and MSD?" > >I know that in the last few years the number of students diagnosed with a >disability has increased. The cost of diagnosing and treating a child with >a >disability has increased. I also know that government regulations have >increased costs as well. In addition, the number of students with a >disability is more likely now to attend a public school then in the past. > > >* How much more does a child with disabilities cost to educate over > >and above a non-disabled child? (BTW, I know the answer to that one). > > > >Fourth, the State of Idaho's spending only increased by a factor of 2.1 >over > >the same period of time. MSD was 3.7. Guess where MSD got the extra > > >$3,111,696? Yup, local taxes have increased by that much just for MSD! > >This I agree fully with you. I am 100% against property taxes. I think it >should be illegal to tax people continuously on a piece of property they >had >already bought and paid for and paid about 50% in interest on. In addition, >this form of taxation assumes, and often falsely, that if you own property >then you have money. People should be required to pay what they can afford, >not be forced to buy what they already have over and over and over again. > > > > >"Fifth, concerning the fixed costs of educating a child, you could look >at > >the smallest school districts in Idaho to see what their budgets were, >then > > >extrapolate from there. There are four school districts in Idaho >(Prairie; > >Three Creek; Arbon; and Pleasant Valley) that fall into those categories. >Of > >course, fixed costs can be reduced when you have a downsizing of student > >enrollment. When MSD reaches 50% of its previous size (around 2008-2009), > >then there's no reason to maintain the same amount of fixed overhead. >That's > >just good business sense. Using your example, if Ford had 50% fewer >escorts > > > >purchased in 10 years, they would close a plant or two." > >First, I apologize for the bad Escort example, that was poorly written and >can see how you misunderstood me. However, I don't think it is a good idea >to extrapolate on information from Three Creek, Arbon, and Pleasant Vally >as >a basis for Moscow school district. This is an entirely separate area with >different problems and situations then these areas. Furthermore, >"Extrapolation" is considered a fallacy in almost all mathematical >equations >and prediction unless there is absolutely no interference, or a vacuum, >since Idaho does not exist in a vacuum (although it feels like it >sometimes) >this would be a fallacy to use. Second, we can't shut down the school >system. It is mandated that we have a math teacher, science teacher, >history >teacher, english teacher, PE, and Health teacher a school building, nurse, >playground facilities,cafeteria, and quite a few other things . We have to >have these. Thus they are called "fixed costs". Fixed costs are the min! >imum amount we can pay and still meet all the government regulations, state >and local. After we meet these fixed costs we have more flexibility to >decide what we need and want after that. If it costs $500,000 for the fixed >costs and we have 50 children it is going to seem like a great of money is >being spent on one child. On the other hand, if in another district we have >to pay $500,000 in fixed costs and only $2000 per extra child and we have >150 children, guess what? The cost per child is going to seem much much >less >but the quality of education is actually about the same. > >The MSD can't shut down anymore Junior High or High Schools, it only has >one >of each. It has shut down elementary schools. > > > > >"Sixth, concerning the rate of inflation. That is what the discussion is >all > >about. By saying that education must inflate at a rate of 10% (MSD's has > >been inflating at 9.1% per year), we are buying into the notion that > > >education is its own beast. I'm questioning that very logic. > >Well, I am telling you why Dale, the costs of educating a child is more >then >it was in the past. > >Here is a list of following reasons: > >Computers, software, fire regulations, ADA Regulations, federal and state >regulations, building codes, safety regulations for playgrounds, food >regulations, increased number of disabled students, increased number of >children further behind when entering school, inflation, increased number >of >specialists to handle and make sure these regulations are followed, >increased number of specialists to deal with new technology problems, >increased number of specialists to deal with legal issues, increased number >of specialists to deal with violence, social, and cultural differences, >increased costs of maintaining, updating, and replacing educational >technologies, increased costs for new teaching tools such as Tv's, VCR's, >and overhead projectors, increased costs for construction, increased costs >for bond levies, increased costs for textbooks, increased costs for >teaching >a wider varity of subjects such as computers, increased costs for medical >coverage of school district employees, ! and increased costs for insurance, >and smaller class sizes. > >Now unless you want school principles to be able to regulate all these >costs >and social problems that are currently out of their control, there is >absolutely nothing they can do about it and it is not their fault. > > >"* We see that people in the past had significantly better educations" > >I disagree, many disabled students were not even allowed to receive an >education. WOmen were not expected to get as high of an education as men in >certain fields. They did not have computers to do research or see foreign >lands or learn about them unless they actually went there. They were taught >Christopher Columbus found the new world. They were not taught women or >Black or Native american History. They were taught Latin, which is a dead >language. They didn't understand quantum physics, or cosmic notions, which >didn't exist then. They were taught many things that were untrue, and fewer >then 10% went on to college. Today about 25% of the adult population has >about 4 years of college. > > >"than people today (just look at the SATs/ACTs and the level of writing >that > >we're getting from students today verses 30 years ago. Look at the >college > >entrance requirements from 100 years ago verses today. Most professors at >UI > >couldn't pass a college entrance exam from 100 years ago!); and they did >it" > >HA HA! SAT and other standardized tests to test student abilities is the >biggest freaking joke in America! Does the SAT test IQ, NO! Does it test >creativity, how about dancing, singing, debate, logical thinking skills, >cooking skills, computer skills, social skills, ability to draw, cultural >awareness? NO! This test doesn't even cover HALF the brain. Furthermore, >the >test has questions that where the answers are wrong! A 12th grade student >in >California even found one that was wrong. It asked which one of following >shapes can't be made using only a triangle shape. He cut up a bunch >triangle >shapes and proved that everyone of the shapes list for A) B) C) and D) you >could make from a triangle. So if we are giving kids tests that are WRONG! >and HAVE WRONG answers listed as the correct answers, and it doesn't test >half the brian and has a statistical variance of + or - margin of six >points, and a significance rating of only .9, what is the point? >Furthermore, I, like about 90! % of my peers, did not give a damn about >those tests. They did not effect our grade in the class. In my class here >in >1992 (which you said was the highest ever rated) I didn't even study for >it, >not one minute, I couldn't care less. I didn't even care to read all the >questions except the government portion of the test, because I loved it. I >didn't know what those tests meant until my senior year when my councilor >called me out of class to talk to me about my tests score and stated I >ranked in the top 1-2% of the nation in the area of Government. I also >know, >that if you did REALLY care about those tests and the "rating of your >school" you would just cheat on those scantron tests by running a #2 pencil >over the black square on the on side of each question. The computer will >count this as a correct answer! Furthermore, did you know that the SAT >removes all the questions that most of the students get right the next year >to ensure a normal distribution bell curve. Did you also ! know that some >students rank in the 1st quartile range of the test one year and the next >year they rank in the bottom quartile range and another student will rank >in >the 3rd quartile range one year and then the 1st quartile range the next >year. Funny how about 50%+ of the student population gains and losses half >there intelligence in just one YEAR! Either that or the test is garbage. >The >only thing Scantron multiple tests are good for is testing ones ability to >fill in a bubble without going outside the lines. You guess and have a 25% >chance, jeez, is that stupid or what! > >Thanks! > >Donovan J. Arnold > > > _____ > >Tired of spam? Get advanced junk >mail >protection with MSN 8. >_____________________________________________________ >List services made available by First Step Internet, serving the >communities >of the Palouse since 1994. http://www.fsr.net mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com >ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ > _________________________________________________________________ Protect your PC - get McAfee.com VirusScan Online http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963 From dale@courtneys.us Mon Jun 2 23:42:17 2003 From: dale@courtneys.us (Dale Courtney) Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2003 15:42:17 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] Public vs. Private Schools and Parental Involvement In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000001c32958$388866b0$ca01a8c0@home> > Dale, et. al. > > Why colored text for your vision2020 posts? It increases the > size of the > e-mail, which for those of us with limited inbox storage is an issue. Ted, my last colored Email was only 8 kb in size. This email of yours to the list was 34 kb in size because you included the previous two Emails in the thread along with your response. Let's all be good stewards of bandwidth (e.g., my images are not attached; they are linked). But colors in HTML are only a tag and take up an *insignificant* amount of space (about 29 characters for the entire page, if done correctly). If you would like, I'll ask Doug Stambler to help you setup Yahoo! Accounts. He well knows how to have unlimited, free mailbox space! :) Best, Dale Courtney Moscow, Idaho From london@moscow.com Mon Jun 2 23:54:48 2003 From: london@moscow.com (Bill London) Date: Mon, 02 Jun 2003 15:54:48 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] growth and community development Message-ID: <3EDBD5B8.89D37D9B@moscow.com> Moscow Civic Association Meeting Focuses on Community Development The public is invited to the Moscow Civic Association meeting on Monday, June 9, at 7pm in the 1912 Building in Moscow. The meeting will focus on community development in Moscow. The meeting will include a computerized “virtual tour” of Moscow highlighting both the community and its recent growth. Crysta Falcon, MCA board member and University of Idaho graduate student in urban design, will lead the virtual tour. The presentation will provide an overview of Moscow and the relevance of Smart Growth principles to changes that impact the community. Discussion of the implications of that presentation will be encouraged, in keeping with the MCA mission of facilitating public participation in vital and current issues. For more information, or to join the organization, visit the MCA webpage at http: www.moscowcivicasso.org/. From vision2020@moscow.com Tue Jun 3 00:19:14 2003 From: vision2020@moscow.com (vision2020@moscow.com) Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2003 16:19:14 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] Latah County Planning Commission Agenda Message-ID: <000701c3295d$61f26a00$3464000a@latah.id.us> The Latah County Planning Commission agenda for Tuesday, June 3, 2003, is available at http://www.latah.id.us/Comm/PlanZone_Main.htm. From johnbharrell@yahoo.com Tue Jun 3 01:26:34 2003 From: johnbharrell@yahoo.com (John Harrell) Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2003 17:26:34 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Vision2020] Fed Educational Funding In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030603002634.26974.qmail@web13403.mail.yahoo.com> --0-952195821-1054599994=:26752 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mr. Arnold, Mr. Hansen is correct in his understanding of the tenth amendment. Your example of Prohibition is a perfect example of why Mr. Hansen's understanding is correct. The federal government's power (authority) is bound by the written constitution as expressly stated in the tenth amendment. If the federal government wants to change it's power over the people and/or the states, the constitution allows this to happen, but through the amendment process (except as noted previously by treaties.) No new amendment, no new federal power. When the federal government government wanted to give itself the power over the states and the people with respect to alcohol, it had to create an amendment giving itself the power to do so, otherwise, the right would still be reserved with the states or the people. The tenth amendment: "The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people." The congress critters of yesterday understood the proper roles of the federal government and the states and/or people. Today, the congress critters have usurped their power and authority by no longer following the law. And the newspapers and the states and the people just follow right behind like good little sheeple. This is why we see so many people crying out to the federal government to take of this problem or that problem. And the federal government is more than happy to oblige by taking more and more power. This is why I carried it to the next level. Many people today clamor for the UN to get more and more involved in our lives. And of course the UN will be more than happy to oblige by taking more and more power. All this power and authority that is being usurped by the federal government and eventually the UN means loss of individual freedoms, let alone just the precedent that the governments doesn't have to follow the laws. And if the governments dont have to follow the laws, then why do the people? Cheers! John Harrell Donovan Arnold wrote: Mr Hansen, I strongly suggest that you take another history course with a different teacher or start talking to some other people in the area of the law. Article VI simple states that all laws on the federal level are higher then laws made in the states in that they are not in violation of the Constitution. The Constitution DOES reserve certain rights to states. The federal government can't pass laws over or in violation of this even though its laws are higher. If you knew your history you would also know that the X amendment was created to clarify this "supposed contradiction" that people were concerned about between the IX Amendment and Article VI of the Constitution, question being,"How can states have rights if all laws by the Federal Government are higher then the states laws?". Rather then giving you a 3 month debate of the Constitution and the rights involved, I simple gave the short version. Just as if someone asked if Alcohol was legal in the United States. I could simple say ! "no" or I could give you a history between Jan. 16, 1919 and Dec. 5, 1933 and all the legalities behind it. I choose to make it as uncomplicated as possible for you. If you want I really get into all the complications for you and list out about 5 court cases of boring legal documentation. It would take about 5 days to read it all. If you want it let me know, it takes about five minutes to get it for you. One other comment, "Our Forefathers" did not all have the same intentions. Some wanted a federalist government, others wanted a very weak federalist government and strong state governments. Thus created the Federalist Party and the Anti-Federalist Party. Thanks! Donovan J Arnold >From: "Tom Hansen" >Reply-To: >To: "Donovan Arnold" , , , >Subject: RE: [Vision2020] Fed Educational Funding >Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2003 05:59:36 -0700 > >Donovan Arnold states: > >"The tenth amendment also states that all rights not defined or prohibited >by the constitution are reserved to the people. Or in other words, the >people can make laws that are not in direct violation with US Constitution." > >Mr. Arnold: You obviously failed to read Article VI of the US Constitution. >It reads: > >" . . . This Constitution, and the laws of the United States which shall be >made in pursuance thereof; and all treaties made, or which shall be made, >under the authority of the United States, shall be the supreme law of the >land; and the judges in every state shall be bound thereby, anything in the >Constitution or laws of any State to the contrary notwithstanding." > >I believe that this is not a contradiction. We had discussed this in a >couple of US History courses I have attended. Our forefathers' intentions >were, to put it in laymens' terms, to relay all rights not deined within the >US Constitution to the individual states, provided that any laws or >constitutions established within the individual states are not in violation >with the US Constitution, the "supreme law of the land". > >Tom Hansen >Moscow > --------------------------------- Help STOP SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Free online calendar with sync to Outlook(TM). --0-952195821-1054599994=:26752 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
Mr. Arnold,
 
Mr. Hansen is correct in his understanding of the tenth amendment.
 
Your example of Prohibition is a perfect example of why Mr. Hansen's
understanding is correct.
 
The federal government's power (authority) is bound by the written constitution
as expressly stated in the tenth amendment. If the federal government
wants to change it's power over the people and/or the states, the
constitution allows this to happen, but through the amendment process
(except as noted previously by treaties.) No new amendment, no new
federal power.
 
When the federal government government wanted to give itself the power
over the states and the people with respect to alcohol, it had to create an
amendment giving itself the power to do so, otherwise, the right would
still be reserved with the states or the people.
 
The tenth amendment:
"The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor
prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or
to the people."
 
The congress critters of yesterday understood the proper roles of the
federal government and the states and/or people. Today, the congress
critters have usurped their power and authority by no longer following the
law. And the newspapers and the states and the people just follow right
behind like good little sheeple.
 
This is why we see so many people crying out to the federal government
to take of this problem or that problem. And the federal government is more
than happy to oblige by taking more and more power. This is why I carried
it to the next level. Many people today clamor for the UN to get more and
more involved in our lives. And of course the UN will be more than happy
to oblige by taking more and more power. All this power and authority that
is being usurped by the federal government and eventually the UN means
loss of individual freedoms, let alone just the precedent that the governments
doesn't have to follow the laws. And if the governments dont have to follow
the laws, then why do the people?
Cheers!
John Harrell
 

Donovan Arnold <donovanarnold@hotmail.com> wrote:

Mr Hansen,

I strongly suggest that you take another history course with a different teacher or start talking to some other people in the area of the law. Article VI simple states that all laws on the federal level are higher then laws made in the states in that they are not in violation of the Constitution. The Constitution DOES reserve certain rights to states. The federal government can't pass laws over or in violation of this even though its laws are higher. If you knew your history you would also know that the X amendment was created to clarify this "supposed contradiction" that people were concerned about between the IX Amendment and Article VI of the Constitution, question being,"How can states have rights if all laws by the Federal Government are higher then the states laws?". Rather then giving you a 3 month debate of the Constitution and the rights involved, I simple gave the short version. Just as if someone asked if Alcohol was legal in the United States. I coul! d simple say "no" or I could give you a history between Jan. 16, 1919 and Dec. 5, 1933 and all the legalities behind it. I choose to make it as uncomplicated as possible for you. If you want I really get into all the complications for you and list out about 5 court cases of boring legal documentation. It would take about 5 days to read it all. If you want it let me know, it takes about five minutes to get it for you. One other comment, "Our Forefathers" did not all have the same intentions. Some wanted a federalist government, others wanted a very weak federalist government and strong state governments. Thus created the Federalist Party and the Anti-Federalist Party.

Thanks!

Donovan J Arnold

>From: "Tom Hansen"
>Reply-To:
>To: "Donovan Arnold" , , ,
>Subject: RE: [Vision2020] Fed Educational Funding
>Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2003 05:59:36 -0700
>
>Donovan Arnold states:
>
>"The tenth amendment also states that all rights not defined or prohibited
>by the constitution are reserved to the people. Or in other words, the
>people can make laws that are not in direct violation with US Constitution."
>
>Mr. Arnold: You obviously failed to read Article VI of the US Constitution.
>It reads:
>
>" . . . This Constitution, and the laws of the United States which shall be
>made in pursuance thereof; and all treaties made, or which shall be made,
>under the authority of the United States, shall be the supreme law of the
>land; and the judges in every state shall be bound thereby, anything in the
>Constitution or laws of any State to the contrary notwithstanding."
>
>I believe that this is not a contradiction. We had discussed this in a
>couple of US History courses I have attended. Our forefathers' intentions
>were, to put it in laymens' terms, to relay all rights not deined within the
>US Constitution to the individual states, provided that any laws or
>constitutions established within the individual states are not in violation
>with the US Constitution, the "supreme law of the land".
>
>Tom Hansen
>Moscow
>

Help STOP SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE*

Do you Yahoo!?
Free online calendar with sync to Outlook(TM). --0-952195821-1054599994=:26752-- From donovanarnold@hotmail.com Tue Jun 3 01:47:10 2003 From: donovanarnold@hotmail.com (Donovan Arnold) Date: Mon, 02 Jun 2003 17:47:10 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] MSD trends Message-ID:

Hi Dale,

 You wrote:

>"* The validity of my prediction for 2008-2009? I'm using an historical
>analysis starting with the 1997 data that takes all the data points since
>into account. You'll have to wait and see if I'm right. Let me tell you this
>much: MSD did their enrollment projections (
http://www.sd281.k12.id.us/GeneralInformation/files/Enrollment.pdf). Yours
>truly was off by 3%. MSD was off by 216%. In fact, MSD predicted to have as
>many students at the end of 2004 as they are starting with now (i.e., they

>were off by a whole year). Not a great one-year prediction!"

You must not confuse "prediction" with "preparation." Looking at the MSD numbers (your link) I think they are doing the correct thing. Only since 1998 has the MSD been losing numbers every year. Since 1998 it has only lost 325 students. That "might" seem like a lot for a school district of only 2,700-2300. However, that is only a loss of 5 students per grade per year. On the overall this looks significant. But from the teacher and classroom perspective it is hardly noticeable. Furthermore, you can't do anything about it. If you lose 5 students this is not enough to cut a teacher or combine classes, thus saving space and resources. Ideally, if you were in a free market you would shrink the number of grades from K-12 to just K-11 and then replace students according to the ability of the students and cut the less effective teachers out. Unfortunately, we can't do this, we have to have K-12. If you are in a big district where a 5-10% decrease would mean a thousand studen! ts you could cut staff and save money. But if you have less then 200 students in a grade and 10 less students it is hard to save that money. Especially when it is possible that you could gain an additional 15 students in any one grade over the year. Thus they "prepare" for this increase based on what has happened in the past. The MSD can't say "Hey sorry we are full go some place else. I hear Pullman has a spot in the 4th grade and Lewiston has a spot in the 6th go send your kids there." If they get 20 extra students in the middle of the school year for the 5th grade they have to take them. You can't predict that, you can only "prepare" for the possibility, and that is what they are doing.

Two other points I wish to make to clarify where you and I differ (correct me if I am reading incorrectly).

You and I both agree that it is absolutely ridiculous that the budget for school had increased 3.7x even though the population has decreased.

Where you and I split on this issue is who is at fault and what the solution should be.

You seem to place the blame on the Moscow School District. And seem to think that the solution should be to simply cut the budget and force them to come up with ways to stay within the budget.

I don't place the entire blame on the Moscow School District. I only place a small portion on them (like maybe 5-10%). I place the bulk of the blame on factors outside the control of the MSD.  My evidence for this is that it is a national phenomenon of outrageous soaring prices for educating a child today. All school districts are facing increasing costs at huge percentages, even on the college and university levels.

My solution is to first identify possible causes for the increases in costs. I don't think it is teachers being paid high wages. Nor do I think students are sitting in gold chairs. Nor do I think every school district in America is fraudulent. If you find out what the factors are please let everyone know because the US Senate did an intensive research investigation as to the causes of ever increasing costs and their findings were inclusive. I do not think we have the resources of special skills to figure this out with some real help, all we can do is guess and try to test our hypothesis as to what it is.

You wrote:

"Most liberals (rightly so) scream about monopolies. Yet, when it comes to

>probably the most important aspect of our society, liberals insist on having

>a government provided monopoly. Why is that?"

I don't have a problem with private or specialized schools. As a matter of fact I strongly support the idea of lots of them. I think the strength of the United States comes from the wide varity of people and the experiences, skills, genes, and educations they have had. That is why I am against the SATs, Standard Aptitude Tests. Not all public school systems teach the same things or at the same times in the same way. Who wants 50 million children that only know the same things in the same way, that is stupid and not progressive. Nor will everyone ever know the same basic things either unless we make are children droids. I am however, against the notion of people complaining that they have to pay pack society for the costs they incurred for their education when they were kids. I am against funding private schools with public dollars because it is a business that makes a profit off of it. If it was a non-profit school that did not discriminate(gender, religion, race, disabil! ity, income) I would be in favor of giving it public dollars. In other words, if private citizens got together for the purpose of making a better school or specialized school for the children in the community because they cared about the children's welfare that would be great let us fund it.

In terms of your suggestion that "private schools" are not increasing in costs I have to disagree, at least on the higher education level. Private schools are increasing at the same rate as the public schools, if not more.

In addition, Private schools in K-12 do not have to play by the same rules as the public schools. Private schools do not have a stratified sample of the public school system students. First, they can select who they will or not except and keep. If one child is difficult they can force them to shape up or kick them out. Second, the parents are more attentive to the child's education. Obviously if they took their child out of the public school system and are paying good money they want to be involved in their child's education. Third, most children that go to private schools are either the same in ideologically mindset (like religion), or wealthy, or both. Children that are in these families usually have a stable and set family lifestyle where it is easier to have a child concentrate on school. Most children that live in unstable family environments have more problems, it is these students with these problems that require more resources and energy a! nd hinder the rest of class from making progress. Private schools do not deal with this and can mess with the system in ways that the public system can't. They take all kinds of kids and their problems.

You asked :"One final question to you: what is the major concern about having a monopoly

>in charge of education? A monopoly can set the price of the product to

>whatever they want because their is no competition to drive it down. And

>that's what we see with government education. If Americans treated education

>like every other market good, we would have choice. Choice is always good;

>and choice drives down prices and increases quality.

Not always. There is something called "natural monopolies". Like telephones, computers, and railways. Telephones are needed because it costs a great deal to place lines everywhere, and wouldn't it be horrible to only be able to call people with that telephone company. Computers are too. Image if you were only able to send emails to people with that type of computer. And railways, they use to have rails that were different sizes and designs until they standardized them. Otherwise we would have had 8 different set of tracks going to every location so the eight different train companies could go there and be competitive. This competition actually makes costs go up. If you think one educational system in the MSD is expensive, imagine paying for 4 or 5 of them with your tax dollars. But I am for this. I would happily to pay 3 or more times in property taxes to create more opportunities for children in the Moscow area. However, I am certain that you would not. So we are stuck w! ith just the one.

One last thing. I think you are looking at the educational system all wrong. You seem to think that you are a victim of the system by paying into it. In fact, you are not. The government doesn't owe you one thing. You owe it. The government has provided you with an education. That money that people paid could have been invested privately by the people that spent it on your education. Because of this, they are living at a lower standard of living so you could have a productive meaningful life. Instead of being thankful for it, you seem to be bitter that you are asked to do the same in return. I can guarantee you that the people that paid for your education lived a much lower standard of living then you do, and you should be happy they didn't complain, cap and/or withdraw funding from your education. I understand that it is costly to you to pay for this, however, the cost of not educating our children is even greater, and the rewards are immeasurable.

Take Care,

Donovan J Arnold


STOP MORE SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* From ted_moffett@hotmail.com Tue Jun 3 01:57:43 2003 From: ted_moffett@hotmail.com (Ted Moffett) Date: Tue, 03 Jun 2003 00:57:43 +0000 Subject: [Vision2020] First Step Tech Examines Dale's 38 K Post Message-ID: Dale et. al. Your post that I referred to that I thought could have been "downsized" (a virtuous goal for a libertarian), while still providing the important content, showed up in my inbox via the vision2020 list serve, at 38 K. My reply that included your entire post's text as you sent it, with my text added, with some HTML code stripped out of course, showed up in my inbox at 22 K via the vision2020 list serve. This was verified at First Step Internet in person with yours truly and a First Step tech viewing the actual e-mails in question on a First Step computer displaying my Hotmail account. We examined the content of your vision2020 post at 38 K and my vision2020 reply at 22 K, as they both were displayed off my Hotmail account, looking at the actual code, to explain why there was a 16 K difference. Though all the text of your vision2020 post was included in my reply with my new text added, HTML code that was included in your vision2020 post was stripped away in my reply. This often happens, but 16 K worth? You are correct that simply adding color to text is a minor addition to the size of an e-mail. Then why the 16 K difference? According to the tech, when you use a sophisticated e-mail program like Outlook Express, or other e-mail programs that can add color, etc. there are numerous HTML code additions to the e-mail that can add size, depending on how things are set up. The First Step tech concluded that to explain the 16 K difference in size between your vision2020 post and my reply meant that you were using a sophisticated e-mail program that added a lot of HTML code. I could also use HTML, or Rich Text options to do e-mail in my Hotmail account, but chose to keep my e-mail in what is called plain text format, dramatically reducing the size of my e-mails. I can understand wanting to do fancy e-mails etc. but still think it best to keep the size of e-mails to a minimum necessary to communicate what is needed, in the context of a public internet list serve My original statement focusing on JUST color to add to e-mail size stands corrected. What I should have said is: "Please use plain text formatting, or some other simpler formatting, in your e-mails to reduce the size." Ted >From: "Dale Courtney" >To: >Subject: RE: [Vision2020] Public vs. Private Schools and Parental >Involvement >Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2003 15:42:17 -0700 > > > Dale, et. al. > > > > Why colored text for your vision2020 posts? It increases the > > size of the > > e-mail, which for those of us with limited inbox storage is an issue. > >Ted, my last colored Email was only 8 kb in size. This email of yours to >the >list was 34 kb in size because you included the previous two Emails in the >thread along with your response. > >Let's all be good stewards of bandwidth (e.g., my images are not attached; >they are linked). But colors in HTML are only a tag and take up an >*insignificant* amount of space (about 29 characters for the entire page, >if >done correctly). > >If you would like, I'll ask Doug Stambler to help you setup Yahoo! >Accounts. >He well knows how to have unlimited, free mailbox space! :) > >Best, >Dale Courtney >Moscow, Idaho > > >_____________________________________________________ > List services made available by First Step Internet, > serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994. > http://www.fsr.net > mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com >ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ _________________________________________________________________ Protect your PC - get McAfee.com VirusScan Online http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963 From donovanarnold@hotmail.com Tue Jun 3 02:15:04 2003 From: donovanarnold@hotmail.com (Donovan Arnold) Date: Mon, 02 Jun 2003 18:15:04 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] Fed Educational Funding Message-ID:

John,

How do you know if Mr. Hansen has a correct or incorrect interpretation of the X Amendment to the constitution when he never even mentioned it? I did. He stated that my interpretation was incorrect that it was the Article VI of the Constitution. So I am at a loss where you are coming from. Perhaps you misunderstood what I wrote vs. what he wrote. Nor did I say that he was wrong, just that he needed to go a little further and that Article VI and the IX Amendment was further clarified by the X Amendment and court rulings.

Thanks!

Donovan J. Arnold 

 

>From: John Harrell

>To: Donovan Arnold , thansen@moscow.com, Cjsnightclub@aol.com, vision2020@moscow.com
>Subject: RE: [Vision2020] Fed Educational Funding
>Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2003 17:26:34 -0700 (PDT)
>
>Mr. Arnold,
>
>Mr. Hansen is correct in his understanding of the tenth amendment.
>
>Your example of Prohibition is a perfect example of why Mr. Hansen's
>understanding is correct.
>
>The federal government's power (authority) is bound by the written constitution
>as expressly stated in the tenth amendment. If the federal government
>wants to change it's power over the people and/or the states, the
>constitution allows this to happen, but through the amendment process
>(except as noted previously by treaties.) No new amendment, no new
>federal power.
>
>When the federal government government wanted to give itself the power
>over the states and the people with respect to alcohol, it had to create an
>amendment giving itself the power to do so, otherwise, the right would
>still be reserved with the states or the people.
>
>The tenth amendment:
>"The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor
>prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or
>to the people."
>
>
>The congress critters of yesterday understood the proper roles of the
>federal government and the states and/or people. Today, the congress
>critters have usurped their power and authority by no longer following the
>law. And the newspapers and the states and the people just follow right
>behind like good little sheeple.
>
>This is why we see so many people crying out to the federal government
>to take of this problem or that problem. And the federal government is more
>than happy to oblige by taking more and more power. This is why I carried
>it to the next level. Many people today clamor for the UN to get more and
>more involved in our lives. And of course the UN will be more than happy
>to oblige by taking more and more power. All this power and authority that
>is being usurped by the federal government and eventually the UN means
>loss of individual freedoms, let alone just the precedent that the governments
>doesn't have to follow the laws. And if the governments dont have to follow
>the laws, then why do the people?
>
>Cheers!
>John Harrell
>
>
>Donovan Arnold wrote:
>
>Mr Hansen,
>
>I strongly suggest that you take another history course with a different teacher or start talking to some other people in the area of the law. Article VI simple states that all laws on the federal level are higher then laws made in the states in that they are not in violation of the Constitution. The Constitution DOES reserve certain rights to states. The federal government can't pass laws over or in violation of this even though its laws are higher. If you knew your history you would also know that the X amendment was created to clarify this "supposed contradiction" that people were concerned about between the IX Amendment and Article VI of the Constitution, question being,"How can states have rights if all laws by the Federal Government are higher then the states laws?". Rather then giving you a 3 month debate of the Constitution and the rights involved, I simple gave the short version. Just as if someone asked if Alcohol was legal in the United States. I co! uld simple say "no" or I could give you a history between Jan. 16, 1919 and Dec. 5, 1933 and all the legalities behind it. I choose to make it as uncomplicated as possible for you. If you want I really get into all the complications for you and list out about 5 court cases of boring legal documentation. It would take about 5 days to read it all. If you want it let me know, it takes about five minutes to get it for you. One other comment, "Our Forefathers" did not all have the same intentions. Some wanted a federalist government, others wanted a very weak federalist government and strong state governments. Thus created the Federalist Party and the Anti-Federalist Party.
>
>
>
>Thanks!
>
>
>
>
>Donovan J Arnold
>
>
>
>
>
>
> >From: "Tom Hansen"
>
>
>
> >Reply-To:
>
>
>
> >To: "Donovan Arnold" , , ,
>
>
>
> >Subject: RE: [Vision2020] Fed Educational Funding
>
>
>
> >Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2003 05:59:36 -0700
>
>
>
> >
>
>
>
> >Donovan Arnold states:
>
>
>
> >
>
>
>
> >"The tenth amendment also states that all rights not defined or prohibited
>
>
>
> >by the constitution are reserved to the people. Or in other words, the
>
>
>
> >people can make laws that are not in direct violation with US Constitution."
>
>
>
> >
>
>
>
> >Mr. Arnold: You obviously failed to read Article VI of the US Constitution.
>
>
>
> >It reads:
>
>
>
> >
>
>
>
> >" . . . This Constitution, and the laws of the United States which shall be
>
>
>
> >made in pursuance thereof; and all treaties made, or which shall be made,
>
>
>
> >under the authority of the United States, shall be the supreme law of the
>
>
>
> >land; and the judges in every state shall be bound thereby, anything in the
>
>
>
> >Constitution or laws of any State to the contrary notwithstanding."
>
>
>
> >
>
>
>
> >I believe that this is not a contradiction. We had discussed this in a
>
>
>
> >couple of US History courses I have attended. Our forefathers' intentions
>
>
>
> >were, to put it in laymens' terms, to relay all rights not deined within the
>
>
>
> >US Constitution to the individual states, provided that any laws or
>
>
>
> >constitutions established within the individual states are not in violation
>
>
>
> >with the US Constitution, the "supreme law of the land".
>
>
>
> >
>
>
>
> >Tom Hansen
>
>
>
> >Moscow
>
>
>
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>---------------------------------
>Help STOP SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE*
>
>---------------------------------
>Do you Yahoo!?
>Free online calendar with sync to Outlook(TM).

Protect your PC - Click here for McAfee.com VirusScan Online From thansen@moscow.com Tue Jun 3 02:22:00 2003 From: thansen@moscow.com (Tom Hansen) Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2003 18:22:00 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] First Step Tech Examines Dale's 38 K Post In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Greetings Visionaires - I believe the answer to tis dilemma is quite simple. To make your posting easier for all subscribers of Vision2020 to access, simply format it in "plain text", not HTML. The reasoning for this is the same reason I use when designing websites. I set my standards of design at Internet Explorer Version 4, and Netscape version 5. Addressing these two browser versions (and their progressive generations) makes the website accessible by at least 95% of those people online. Sure, you can use all the fancy backgrounds, colors, and a multitude of other e-mail functionalities. But, unless everybody else is using the same e-mail software (and in some cases the same version), you simply will not reach them. So, for the sake of this listserve, let's keep it simple. Tom Hansen From johnbharrell@yahoo.com Tue Jun 3 02:33:48 2003 From: johnbharrell@yahoo.com (John Harrell) Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2003 18:33:48 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Vision2020] Fed Educational Funding In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030603013349.73627.qmail@web13401.mail.yahoo.com> --0-2088968651-1054604028=:73218 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii I understood Mr. Hansen's email to be a discussion regarding the proper roles of the federal government and the states and/or people, as specified in his last paragraph. The tenth amendment and (treaties) are the usual suspects in such a discussion. Therefore, I inferred the tenth amendment as being implied by his statements. Cheers! John Harrell Donovan Arnold wrote: John, How do you know if Mr. Hansen has a correct or incorrect interpretation of the X Amendment to the constitution when he never even mentioned it? I did. He stated that my interpretation was incorrect that it was the Article VI of the Constitution. So I am at a loss where you are coming from. Perhaps you misunderstood what I wrote vs. what he wrote. Nor did I say that he was wrong, just that he needed to go a little further and that Article VI and the IX Amendment was further clarified by the X Amendment and court rulings. Thanks! Donovan J. Arnold >From: John Harrell >To: Donovan Arnold , thansen@moscow.com, Cjsnightclub@aol.com, vision2020@moscow.com >Subject: RE: [Vision2020] Fed Educational Funding >Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2003 17:26:34 -0700 (PDT) > >Mr. Arnold, > >Mr. Hansen is correct in his understanding of the tenth amendment. > >Your example of Prohibition is a perfect example of why Mr. Hansen's >understanding is correct. > >The federal government's power (authority) is bound by the written constitution >as expressly stated in the tenth amendment. If the federal government >wants to change it's power over the people and/or the states, the >constitution allows this to happen, but through the amendment process >(except as noted previously by treaties.) No new amendment, no new >federal power. > >When the federal government government wanted to give itself the power >over the states and the people with respect to alcohol, it had to create an >amendment giving itself the power to do so, otherwise, the right would >still be reserved with the states or the people. > >The tenth amendment: >"The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor >prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or >to the people." > > >The congress critters of yesterday understood the proper roles of the >federal government and the states and/or people. Today, the congress >critters have usurped their power and authority by no longer following the >law. And the newspapers and the states and the people just follow right >behind like good little sheeple. > >This is why we see so many people crying out to the federal government >to take of this problem or that problem. And the federal government is more >than happy to oblige by taking more and more power. This is why I carried >it to the next level. Many people today clamor for the UN to get more and >more involved in our lives. And of course the UN will be more than happy >to oblige by taking more and more power. All this power and authority that >is being usurped by the federal government and eventually the UN means >loss of individual freedoms, let alone just the precedent that the governments >doesn't have to follow the laws. And if the governments dont have to follow >the laws, then why do the people? > >Cheers! >John Harrell > > >Donovan Arnold wrote: > >Mr Hansen, > >I strongly suggest that you take another history course with a different teacher or start talking to some other people in the area of the law. Article VI simple states that all laws on the federal level are higher then laws made in the states in that they are not in violation of the Constitution. The Constitution DOES reserve certain rights to states. The federal government can't pass laws over or in violation of this even though its laws are higher. If you knew your history you would also know that the X amendment was created to clarify this "supposed contradiction" that people were concerned about between the IX Amendment and Article VI of the Constitution, question being,"How can states have rights if all laws by the Federal Government are higher then the states laws?". Rather then giving you a 3 month debate of the Constitution and the rights involved, I simple gave the short version. Just as if someone asked if Alcohol was legal in the United States. I co! uld simple s! ay "no" or I could give you a history between Jan. 16, 1919 and Dec. 5, 1933 and all the legalities behind it. I choose to make it as uncomplicated as possible for you. If you want I really get into all the complications for you and list out about 5 court cases of boring legal documentation. It would take about 5 days to read it all. If you want it let me know, it takes about five minutes to get it for you. One other comment, "Our Forefathers" did not all have the same intentions. Some wanted a federalist government, others wanted a very weak federalist government and strong state governments. Thus created the Federalist Party and the Anti-Federalist Party. > > > >Thanks! > > > > >Donovan J Arnold > > > > > > > >From: "Tom Hansen" > > > > >Reply-To: > > > > >To: "Donovan Arnold" , , , > > > > >Subject: RE: [Vision2020] Fed Educational Funding > > > > >Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2003 05:59:36 -0700 > > > > > > > > > >Donovan Arnold states: > > > > > > > > > >"The tenth amendment also states that all rights not defined or prohibited > > > > >by the constitution are reserved to the people. Or in other words, the > > > > >people can make laws that are not in direct violation with US Constitution." > > > > > > > > > >Mr. Arnold: You obviously failed to read Article VI of the US Constitution. > > > > >It reads: > > > > > > > > > >" . . . This Constitution, and the laws of the United States which shall be > > > > >made in pursuance thereof; and all treaties made, or which shall be made, > > > > >under the authority of the United States, shall be the supreme law of the > > > > >land; and the judges in every state shall be bound thereby, anything in the > > > > >Constitution or laws of any State to the contrary notwithstanding." > > > > > > > > > >I believe that this is not a contradiction. We had discussed this in a > > > > >couple of US History courses I have attended. Our forefathers' intentions > > > > >were, to put it in laymens' terms, to relay all rights not deined within the > > > > >US Constitution to the individual states, provided that any laws or > > > > >constitutions established within the individual states are not in violation > > > > >with the US Constitution, the "supreme law of the land". > > > > > > > > > >Tom Hansen > > > > >Moscow > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >--------------------------------- >Help STOP SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* > >--------------------------------- >Do you Yahoo!? >Free online calendar with sync to Outlook(TM). --------------------------------- Protect your PC - Click here for McAfee.com VirusScan Online _____________________________________________________ List services made available by First Step Internet, serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994. http://www.fsr.net mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Free online calendar with sync to Outlook(TM). --0-2088968651-1054604028=:73218 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
I understood Mr. Hansen's email to be a discussion regarding the proper
roles of the federal government and the states and/or people, as specified
in his last paragraph. The tenth amendment and (treaties) are the usual
suspects in such a discussion. Therefore, I inferred the tenth amendment
as being
implied by his statements.
 
Cheers!
John Harrell


Donovan Arnold <donovanarnold@hotmail.com> wrote:

John,

How do you know if Mr. Hansen has a correct or incorrect interpretation of the X Amendment to the constitution when he never even mentioned it? I did. He stated that my interpretation was incorrect that it was the Article VI of the Constitution. So I am at a loss where you are coming from. Perhaps you misunderstood what I wrote vs. what he wrote. Nor did I say that he was wrong, just that he needed to go a little further and that Article VI and the IX Amendment was further clarified by the X Amendment and court rulings.

Thanks!

Donovan J. Arnold 

 

>From: John Harrell

>To: Donovan Arnold , thansen@moscow.com, Cjsnightclub@aol.com, vision2020@moscow.com
>Subject: RE: [Vision2020] Fed Educational Funding
>Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2003 17:26:34 -0700 (PDT)
>
>Mr. Arnold,
>
>Mr. Hansen is correct in his understanding of the tenth amendment.
>
>Your example of Prohibition is a perfect example of why Mr. Hansen's
>understanding is correct.
>
>The federal government's power (authority) is bound by the written constitution
>as expressly stated in the tenth amendment. If the federal government
>wants to change it's power over the people and/or the states, the
>constitution allows this to happen, but through the amendment process
>(except as noted previously by treaties.) No new amendment, no new
>federal power.
>
>When the federal government government wanted to give itself the power
>over the states and the people with respect to alcohol, it had to create an
>amendment giving itself the power to do so, otherwise, the right would
>still be reserved with the states or the people.
>
>The tenth amendment:
>"The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor
>prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or
>to the people."
>
>
>The congress critters of yesterday understood the proper roles of the
>federal government and the states and/or people. Today, the congress
>critters have usurped their power and authority by no longer following the
>law. And the newspapers and the states and the people just follow right
>behind like good little sheeple.
>
>This is why we see so many people crying out to the federal government
>to take of this problem or that problem. And the federal government is more
>than happy to oblige by taking more and more power. This is why I carried
>it to the next level. Many people today clamor for the UN to get more and
>more involved in our lives. And of course the UN will be more than happy
>to oblige by taking more and more power. All this power and authority that
>is being usurped by the federal government and eventually the UN means
>loss of individual freedoms, let alone just the precedent that the governments
>doesn't have to follow the laws. And if the governments dont have to follow
>the laws, then why do the people?
>
>Cheers!
>John Harrell
>
>
>Donovan Arnold wrote:
>
>Mr Hansen,
>
>I strongly suggest that you take another history course with a different teacher or start talking to some other people in the area of the law. Article VI simple states that all laws on the federal level are higher then laws made in the states in that they are not in violation of the Constitution. The Constitution DOES reserve certain rights to states. The federal government can't pass laws over or in violation of this even though its laws are higher. If you knew your history you would also know that the X amendment was created to clarify this "supposed contradiction" that people were concerned about between the IX Amendment and Article VI of the Constitution, question being,"How can states have rights if all laws by the Federal Government are higher then the states laws?". Rather then giving you a 3 month debate of the Constitution and the rights involved, I simple gave the short version. Just as if someone asked if Alcohol was legal in the United States. I co! ! uld simple say "no" or I could give you a history between Jan. 16, 1919 and Dec. 5, 1933 and all the legalities behind it. I choose to make it as uncomplicated as possible for you. If you want I really get into all the complications for you and list out about 5 court cases of boring legal documentation. It would take about 5 days to read it all. If you want it let me know, it takes about five minutes to get it for you. One other comment, "Our Forefathers" did not all have the same intentions. Some wanted a federalist government, others wanted a very weak federalist government and strong state governments. Thus created the Federalist Party and the Anti-Federalist Party.
>
>
>
>Thanks!
>
>
>
>
>Donovan J Arnold
>
>
>
>
>
>
> >From: "Tom Hansen"
>
>
>
> >Reply-To:
>
>
>
> >To: "Donovan Arnold" , , ,
>
>
>
> >Subject: RE: [Vision2020] Fed Educational Funding
>
>
>
> >Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2003 05:59:36 -0700
>
>
>
> >
>
>
>
> >Donovan Arnold states:
>
>
>
> >
>
>
>
> >"The tenth amendment also states that all rights not defined or prohibited
>
>
>
> >by the constitution are reserved to the people. Or in other words, the
>
>
>
> >people can make laws that are not in direct violation with US Constitution."
>
>
>
> >
>
>
>
> >Mr. Arnold: You obviously failed to read Article VI of the US Constitution.
>
>
>
> >It reads:
>
>
>
> >
>
>
>
> >" . . . This Constitution, and the laws of the United States which shall be
>
>
>
> >made in pursuance thereof; and all treaties made, or which shall be made,
>
>
>
> >under the authority of the United States, shall be the supreme law of the
>
>
>
> >land; and the judges in every state shall be bound thereby, anything in the
>
>
>
> >Constitution or laws of any State to the contrary notwithstanding."
>
>
>
> >
>
>
>
> >I believe that this is not a contradiction. We had discussed this in a
>
>
>
> >couple of US History courses I have attended. Our forefathers' intentions
>
>
>
> >were, to put it in laymens' terms, to relay all rights not deined within the
>
>
>
> >US Constitution to the individual states, provided that any laws or
>
>
>
> >constitutions established within the individual states are not in violation
>
>
>
> >with the US Constitution, the "supreme law of the land".
>
>
>
> >
>
>
>
> >Tom Hansen
>
>
>
> >Moscow
>
>
>
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>---------------------------------
>Help STOP SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE*
>
>---------------------------------
>Do you Yahoo!?
>Free online calendar with sync to Outlook(TM).

Protect your PC - Click here for McAfee.com VirusScan Online _____________________________________________________ List services made available by First Step Internet, serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994. http://www.fsr.net mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ

Do you Yahoo!?
Free online calendar with sync to Outlook(TM). --0-2088968651-1054604028=:73218-- From thansen@moscow.com Tue Jun 3 02:40:38 2003 From: thansen@moscow.com (Tom Hansen) Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2003 18:40:38 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] Fed Educational Funding In-Reply-To: <20030603013349.73627.qmail@web13401.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Exactly, Mr. Harrell. I referred to an implied "contradiction" between Article VI and the tenth amendment within my posting and went on to explain my understood clarification of this implied contradiction, that in fact there is no contradiction. Tom Hansen Moscow -----Original Message----- From: John Harrell [mailto:johnbharrell@yahoo.com] Sent: Monday, June 02, 2003 6:34 PM To: Donovan Arnold; thansen@moscow.com; Cjsnightclub@aol.com; vision2020@moscow.com Subject: RE: [Vision2020] Fed Educational Funding I understood Mr. Hansen's email to be a discussion regarding the proper roles of the federal government and the states and/or people, as specified in his last paragraph. The tenth amendment and (treaties) are the usual suspects in such a discussion. Therefore, I inferred the tenth amendment as being implied by his statements. Cheers! John Harrell From donovanarnold@hotmail.com Tue Jun 3 02:42:13 2003 From: donovanarnold@hotmail.com (Donovan Arnold) Date: Mon, 02 Jun 2003 18:42:13 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] Fed Educational Funding Message-ID:

John,

No actually, the conversation was orginally about the fact that the Federal Government spent $26 Billion on education and Mr. Hansen wanted to know where I thought in the US Constitution it stated they had the authority to spent this. I listed some of the possible places it could give the authority and right for them to do. I named two places that were it was used in court cases. He replied saying that it was in Article VI. Which I agree it is, but I would not use that one to make the strongest case for it.

Thanks!

Donovan J Arnold 

>From: John Harrell
>To: Donovan Arnold , thansen@moscow.com, Cjsnightclub@aol.com, vision2020@moscow.com
>Subject: RE: [Vision2020] Fed Educational Funding
>Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2003 18:33:48 -0700 (PDT)
>
>I understood Mr. Hansen's email to be a discussion regarding the proper
>roles of the federal government and the states and/or people, as specified
>in his last paragraph. The tenth amendment and (treaties) are the usual
>suspects in such a discussion. Therefore, I inferred the tenth amendment
>as being
>implied by his statements.
>
>Cheers!
>John Harrell
>
>
>Donovan Arnold wrote:
>
>John,
>
>
>
>
>How do you know if Mr. Hansen has a correct or incorrect interpretation of the X Amendment to the constitution when he never even mentioned it? I did. He stated that my interpretation was incorrect that it was the Article VI of the Constitution. So I am at a loss where you are coming from. Perhaps you misunderstood what I wrote vs. what he wrote. Nor did I say that he was wrong, just that he needed to go a little further and that Article VI and the IX Amendment was further clarified by the X Amendment and court rulings.
>
>
>Thanks!
>
>
>Donovan J. Arnold
>
>
>
>
>
> >From: John Harrell
>
>
> >To: Donovan Arnold , thansen@moscow.com, Cjsnightclub@aol.com, vision2020@moscow.com
>
> >Subject: RE: [Vision2020] Fed Educational Funding
>
> >Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2003 17:26:34 -0700 (PDT)
>
> >
>
> >Mr. Arnold,
>
> >
>
> >Mr. Hansen is correct in his understanding of the tenth amendment.
>
> >
>
> >Your example of Prohibition is a perfect example of why Mr. Hansen's
>
> >understanding is correct.
>
> >
>
> >The federal government's power (authority) is bound by the written constitution
>
> >as expressly stated in the tenth amendment. If the federal government
>
> >wants to change it's power over the people and/or the states, the
>
> >constitution allows this to happen, but through the amendment process
>
> >(except as noted previously by treaties.) No new amendment, no new
>
> >federal power.
>
> >
>
> >When the federal government government wanted to give itself the power
>
> >over the states and the people with respect to alcohol, it had to create an
>
> >amendment giving itself the power to do so, otherwise, the right would
>
> >still be reserved with the states or the people.
>
> >
>
> >The tenth amendment:
>
> >"The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor
>
> >prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or
>
> >to the people."
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >The congress critters of yesterday understood the proper roles of the
>
> >federal government and the states and/or people. Today, the congress
>
> >critters have usurped their power and authority by no longer following the
>
> >law. And the newspapers and the states and the people just follow right
>
> >behind like good little sheeple.
>
> >
>
> >This is why we see so many people crying out to the federal government
>
> >to take of this problem or that problem. And the federal government is more
>
> >than happy to oblige by taking more and more power. This is why I carried
>
> >it to the next level. Many people today clamor for the UN to get more and
>
> >more involved in our lives. And of course the UN will be more than happy
>
> >to oblige by taking more and more power. All this power and authority that
>
> >is being usurped by the federal government and eventually the UN means
>
> >loss of individual freedoms, let alone just the precedent that the governments
>
> >doesn't have to follow the laws. And if the governments dont have to follow
>
> >the laws, then why do the people?
>
> >
>
> >Cheers!
>
> >John Harrell
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >Donovan Arnold wrote:
>
> >
>
> >Mr Hansen,
>
> >
>
> >I strongly suggest that you take another history course with a different teacher or start talking to some other people in the area of the law. Article VI simple states that all laws on the federal level are higher then laws made in the states in that they are not in violation of the Constitution. The Constitution DOES reserve certain rights to states. The federal government can't pass laws over or in violation of this even though its laws are higher. If you knew your history you would also know that the X amendment was created to clarify this "supposed contradiction" that people were concerned about between the IX Amendment and Article VI of the Constitution, question being,"How can states have rights if all laws by the Federal Government are higher then the states laws?". Rather then giving you a 3 month debate of the Constitution and the rights involved, I simple gave the short version. Just as if someone asked if Alcohol was legal in the United States.! I co! uld simple say "no" or I could give you a history between Jan. 16, 1919 and Dec. 5, 1933 and all the legalities behind it. I choose to make it as uncomplicated as possible for you. If you want I really get into all the complications for you and list out about 5 court cases of boring legal documentation. It would take about 5 days to read it all. If you want it let me know, it takes about five minutes to get it for you. One other comment, "Our Forefathers" did not all have the same intentions. Some wanted a federalist government, others wanted a very weak federalist government and strong state governments. Thus created the Federalist Party and the Anti-Federalist Party.
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >Thanks!
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >Donovan J Arnold
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > >From: "Tom Hansen"
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > >Reply-To:
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > >To: "Donovan Arnold" , , ,
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > >Subject: RE: [Vision2020] Fed Educational Funding
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > >Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2003 05:59:36 -0700
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > >Donovan Arnold states:
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > >"The tenth amendment also states that all rights not defined or prohibited
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > >by the constitution are reserved to the people. Or in other words, the
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > >people can make laws that are not in direct violation with US Constitution."
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > >Mr. Arnold: You obviously failed to read Article VI of the US Constitution.
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > >It reads:
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > >" . . . This Constitution, and the laws of the United States which shall be
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > >made in pursuance thereof; and all treaties made, or which shall be made,
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > >under the authority of the United States, shall be the supreme law of the
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > >land; and the judges in every state shall be bound thereby, anything in the
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > >Constitution or laws of any State to the contrary notwithstanding."
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > >I believe that this is not a contradiction. We had discussed this in a
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > >couple of US History courses I have attended. Our forefathers' intentions
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > >were, to put it in laymens' terms, to relay all rights not deined within the
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > >US Constitution to the individual states, provided that any laws or
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > >constitutions established within the individual states are not in violation
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > >with the US Constitution, the "supreme law of the land".
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > >Tom Hansen
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > >Moscow
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >---------------------------------
>
> >Help STOP SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE*
>
> >
>
> >---------------------------------
>
> >Do you Yahoo!?
>
> >Free online calendar with sync to Outlook(TM).
>
>
>
>
>
>---------------------------------
>Protect your PC - Click here for McAfee.com VirusScan Online _____________________________________________________ List services made available by First Step Internet, serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994. http://www.fsr.net mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ
>
>
>---------------------------------
>Do you Yahoo!?
>Free online calendar with sync to Outlook(TM).

MSN 8 helps ELIMINATE E-MAIL VIRUSES. Get 2 months FREE*. From donovanarnold@hotmail.com Tue Jun 3 02:45:32 2003 From: donovanarnold@hotmail.com (Donovan Arnold) Date: Mon, 02 Jun 2003 18:45:32 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] Fed Educational Funding Message-ID:

ahh, I see! I did not pick that up. Well, obviously you are smarter then the writters of the Constitution, because they added the 10th amendment to make sure their was not.

Donovan J Arnold

A
>From: "Tom Hansen"
>Reply-To:
>To: "John Harrell" , "Donovan Arnold" , ,
>Subject: RE: [Vision2020] Fed Educational Funding
>Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2003 18:40:38 -0700
>
>Exactly, Mr. Harrell. I referred to an implied "contradiction" between
>Article VI and the tenth amendment within my posting and went on to explain
>my understood clarification of this implied contradiction, that in fact
>there is no contradiction.
>
>Tom Hansen
>Moscow
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: John Harrell [mailto:johnbharrell@yahoo.com]
>Sent: Monday, June 02, 2003 6:34 PM
>To: Donovan Arnold; thansen@moscow.com; Cjsnightclub@aol.com;
>vision2020@moscow.com
>Subject: RE: [Vision2020] Fed Educational Funding
>
>
>I understood Mr. Hansen's email to be a discussion regarding the proper
>roles of the federal government and the states and/or people, as specified
>in his last paragraph. The tenth amendment and (treaties) are the usual
>suspects in such a discussion. Therefore, I inferred the tenth amendment
>as being
>implied by his statements.
>
>Cheers!
>John Harrell
>

MSN 8 helps ELIMINATE E-MAIL VIRUSES. Get 2 months FREE*. From dale@courtneys.us Tue Jun 3 02:55:04 2003 From: dale@courtneys.us (Dale Courtney) Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2003 18:55:04 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] First Step Tech Examines Dale's 38 K Post In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <001901c32973$2714ac70$ca01a8c0@home> Sigh, If it is the desire of the list that we shift to text-based Email (something that hasn't been the standard since RTF and HTML Email were available 8 years ago), I will comply. But we'll be the only list in the world that reverts back 5+ generations in Internet technology. :( However, there are things that can only be conveyed to many people via graphs and colors. Perhaps my graphs were too effective? Best, Dale From thansen@moscow.com Tue Jun 3 03:16:48 2003 From: thansen@moscow.com (Tom Hansen) Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2003 19:16:48 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] Fed Educational Funding In-Reply-To: Message-ID: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0004_01C3293B.83AB3270 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit WHAT?!?!? Are we speaking (and understanding) the same language, Mr. Arnold. That isn't even bending or twisting what I was discussing. If you are going to tell as big a lie as that about someone, Mr. Arnold, the least you can do is wait until their backs are turned. Tom Hansen Moscow -----Original Message----- From: Donovan Arnold [mailto:donovanarnold@hotmail.com] Sent: Monday, June 02, 2003 6:42 PM To: johnbharrell@yahoo.com; thansen@moscow.com; Cjsnightclub@aol.com; vision2020@moscow.com Subject: RE: [Vision2020] Fed Educational Funding John, No actually, the conversation was orginally about the fact that the Federal Government spent $26 Billion on education and Mr. Hansen wanted to know where I thought in the US Constitution it stated they had the authority to spent this. I listed some of the possible places it could give the authority and right for them to do. I named two places that were it was used in court cases. He replied saying that it was in Article VI. Which I agree it is, but I would not use that one to make the strongest case for it. Thanks! Donovan J Arnold >From: John Harrell >To: Donovan Arnold , thansen@moscow.com, Cjsnightclub@aol.com, vision2020@moscow.com >Subject: RE: [Vision2020] Fed Educational Funding >Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2003 18:33:48 -0700 (PDT) > >I understood Mr. Hansen's email to be a discussion regarding the proper >roles of the federal government and the states and/or people, as specified >in his last paragraph. The tenth amendment and (treaties) are the usual >suspects in such a discussion. Therefore, I inferred the tenth amendment >as being >implied by his statements. > >Cheers! >John Harrell > > >Donovan Arnold wrote: > >John, > > > > >How do you know if Mr. Hansen has a correct or incorrect interpretation of the X Amendment to the constitution when he never even mentioned it? I did. He stated that my interpretation was incorrect that it was the Article VI of the Constitution. So I am at a loss where you are coming from. Perhaps you misunderstood what I wrote vs. what he wrote. Nor did I say that he was wrong, just that he needed to go a little further and that Article VI and the IX Amendment was further clarified by the X Amendment and court rulings. > > >Thanks! > > >Donovan J. Arnold > > > > > > >From: John Harrell > > > >To: Donovan Arnold , thansen@moscow.com, Cjsnightclub@aol.com, vision2020@moscow.com > > >Subject: RE: [Vision2020] Fed Educational Funding > > >Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2003 17:26:34 -0700 (PDT) > > > > > >Mr. Arnold, > > > > > >Mr. Hansen is correct in his understanding of the tenth amendment. > > > > > >Your example of Prohibition is a perfect example of why Mr. Hansen's > > >understanding is correct. > > > > > >The federal government's power (authority) is bound by the written constitution > > >as expressly stated in the tenth amendment. If the federal government > > >wants to change it's power over the people and/or the states, the > > >constitution allows this to happen, but through the amendment process > > >(except as noted previously by treaties.) No new amendment, no new > > >federal power. > > > > > >When the federal government government wanted to give itself the power > > >over the states and the people with respect to alcohol, it had to create an > > >amendment giving itself the power to do so, otherwise, the right would > > >still be reserved with the states or the people. > > > > > >The tenth amendment: > > >"The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor > > >prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or > > >to the people." > > > > > > > > >The congress critters of yesterday understood the proper roles of the > > >federal government and the states and/or people. Today, the congress > > >critters have usurped their power and authority by no longer following the > > >law. And the newspapers and the states and the people just follow right > > >behind like good little sheeple. > > > > > >This is why we see so many people crying out to the federal government > > >to take of this problem or that problem. And the federal government is more > > >than happy to oblige by taking more and more power. This is why I carried > > >it to the next level. Many people today clamor for the UN to get more and > > >more involved in our lives. And of course the UN will be more than happy > > >to oblige by taking more and more power. All this power and authority that > > >is being usurped by the federal government and eventually the UN means > > >loss of individual freedoms, let alone just the precedent that the governments > > >doesn't have to follow the laws. And if the governments dont have to follow > > >the laws, then why do the people? > > > > > >Cheers! > > >John Harrell > > > > > > > > >Donovan Arnold wrote: > > > > > >Mr Hansen, > > > > > >I strongly suggest that you take another history course with a different teacher or start talking to some other people in the area of the law. Article VI simple states that all laws on the federal level are higher then laws made in the states in that they are not in violation of the Constitution. The Constitution DOES reserve certain rights to states. The federal government can't pass laws over or in violation of this even though its laws are higher. If you knew your history you would also know that the X amendment was created to clarify this "supposed contradiction" that people were concerned about between the IX Amendment and Article VI of the Constitution, question being,"How can states have rights if all laws by the Federal Government are higher then the states laws?". Rather then giving you a 3 month debate of the Constitution and the rights involved, I simple gave the short version. Just as if someone asked if Alcohol was legal in the United States.! I co! uld simple say "no" or I could give you a history between Jan. 16, 1919 and Dec. 5, 1933 and all the legalities behind it. I choose to make it as uncomplicated as possible for you. If you want I really get into all the complications for you and list out about 5 court cases of boring legal documentation. It would take about 5 days to read it all. If you want it let me know, it takes about five minutes to get it for you. One other comment, "Our Forefathers" did not all have the same intentions. Some wanted a federalist government, others wanted a very weak federalist government and strong state governments. Thus created the Federalist Party and the Anti-Federalist Party. > > > > > > > > > > > >Thanks! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >Donovan J Arnold > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >From: "Tom Hansen" > > > > > > > > > > > > >Reply-To: > > > > > > > > > > > > >To: "Donovan Arnold" , , , > > > > > > > > > > > > >Subject: RE: [Vision2020] Fed Educational Funding > > > > > > > > > > > > >Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2003 05:59:36 -0700 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >Donovan Arnold states: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >"The tenth amendment also states that all rights not defined or prohibited > > > > > > > > > > > > >by the constitution are reserved to the people. Or in other words, the > > > > > > > > > > > > >people can make laws that are not in direct violation with US Constitution." > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >Mr. Arnold: You obviously failed to read Article VI of the US Constitution. > > > > > > > > > > > > >It reads: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >" . . . This Constitution, and the laws of the United States which shall be > > > > > > > > > > > > >made in pursuance thereof; and all treaties made, or which shall be made, > > > > > > > > > > > > >under the authority of the United States, shall be the supreme law of the > > > > > > > > > > > > >land; and the judges in every state shall be bound thereby, anything in the > > > > > > > > > > > > >Constitution or laws of any State to the contrary notwithstanding." > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >I believe that this is not a contradiction. We had discussed this in a > > > > > > > > > > > > >couple of US History courses I have attended. Our forefathers' intentions > > > > > > > > > > > > >were, to put it in laymens' terms, to relay all rights not deined within the > > > > > > > > > > > > >US Constitution to the individual states, provided that any laws or > > > > > > > > > > > > >constitutions established within the individual states are not in violation > > > > > > > > > > > > >with the US Constitution, the "supreme law of the land". > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >Tom Hansen > > > > > > > > > > > > >Moscow > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >--------------------------------- > > >Help STOP SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* > > > > > >--------------------------------- > > >Do you Yahoo!? > > >Free online calendar with sync to Outlook(TM). > > > > > >--------------------------------- >Protect your PC - Click here for McAfee.com VirusScan Online _____________________________________________________ List services made available by First Step Internet, serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994. http://www.fsr.net mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ > > >--------------------------------- >Do you Yahoo!? >Free online calendar with sync to Outlook(TM). ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- MSN 8 helps ELIMINATE E-MAIL VIRUSES. Get 2 months FREE*. ------=_NextPart_000_0004_01C3293B.83AB3270 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
WHAT?!?!? =20 Are we speaking (and understanding) the same language, Mr. Arnold.  = That=20 isn't even bending or twisting what I was discussing.  If you are = going to=20 tell as big a lie as that about someone, Mr. Arnold, the least you can = do is=20 wait until their backs are turned.
 
Tom = Hansen
Moscow
-----Original Message-----
From: Donovan Arnold=20 [mailto:donovanarnold@hotmail.com]
Sent: Monday, June 02, = 2003 6:42=20 PM
To: johnbharrell@yahoo.com; thansen@moscow.com;=20 Cjsnightclub@aol.com; vision2020@moscow.com
Subject: RE:=20 [Vision2020] Fed Educational Funding

John,

No actually, the conversation was orginally about the fact that the = Federal=20 Government spent $26 Billion on education and Mr. Hansen wanted = to know=20 where I thought in the US Constitution it stated they had the = authority to=20 spent this. I listed some of the possible places it could give the = authority=20 and right for them to do. I named two places that were it was = used in=20 court cases. He replied saying that it was in Article VI. = Which I=20 agree it is, but I would not use that one to make the strongest=20 case for it.

Thanks!

Donovan J Arnold 

>From: John Harrell
>To: Donovan Arnold ,=20 thansen@moscow.com, Cjsnightclub@aol.com, vision2020@moscow.com=20
>Subject: RE: [Vision2020] Fed Educational Funding=20
>Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2003 18:33:48 -0700 (PDT)=20
>=20
>I understood Mr. Hansen's email to be a discussion = regarding=20 the proper=20
>roles of the federal government and the states and/or = people,=20 as specified=20
>in his last paragraph. The tenth amendment and = (treaties) are=20 the usual=20
>suspects in such a discussion. Therefore, I inferred = the tenth=20 amendment=20
>as being=20
>implied by his statements.=20
>=20
>Cheers!=20
>John Harrell=20
>=20
>=20
>Donovan Arnold wrote:=20
>=20
>John,=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>How do you know if Mr. Hansen has a correct or = incorrect=20 interpretation of the X Amendment to the constitution when he never = even=20 mentioned it? I did. He stated that my interpretation was incorrect = that it=20 was the Article VI of the Constitution. So I am at a loss where you = are coming=20 from. Perhaps you misunderstood what I wrote vs. what he wrote. Nor = did I say=20 that he was wrong, just that he needed to go a little further and that = Article=20 VI and the IX Amendment was further clarified by the X Amendment and = court=20 rulings.=20
>=20
>=20
>Thanks!=20
>=20
>=20
>Donovan J. Arnold=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
> >From: John Harrell=20
>=20
>=20
> >To: Donovan Arnold , thansen@moscow.com,=20 Cjsnightclub@aol.com, vision2020@moscow.com=20
>=20
> >Subject: RE: [Vision2020] Fed Educational Funding=20
>=20
> >Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2003 17:26:34 -0700 (PDT)=20
>=20
> >=20
>=20
> >Mr. Arnold,=20
>=20
> >=20
>=20
> >Mr. Hansen is correct in his understanding of the = tenth=20 amendment.=20
>=20
> >=20
>=20
> >Your example of Prohibition is a perfect example = of why=20 Mr. Hansen's=20
>=20
> >understanding is correct.=20
>=20
> >=20
>=20
> >The federal government's power (authority) is = bound by the=20 written constitution=20
>=20
> >as expressly stated in the tenth amendment. If the = federal=20 government=20
>=20
> >wants to change it's power over the people and/or = the=20 states, the=20
>=20
> >constitution allows this to happen, but through = the=20 amendment process=20
>=20
> >(except as noted previously by treaties.) No new=20 amendment, no new=20
>=20
> >federal power.=20
>=20
> >=20
>=20
> >When the federal government government wanted to = give=20 itself the power=20
>=20
> >over the states and the people with respect to = alcohol, it=20 had to create an=20
>=20
> >amendment giving itself the power to do so, = otherwise, the=20 right would=20
>=20
> >still be reserved with the states or the people.=20
>=20
> >=20
>=20
> >The tenth amendment:=20
>=20
> >"The powers not delegated to the United States by = the=20 Constitution, nor=20
>=20
> >prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to = the States=20 respectively, or=20
>=20
> >to the people."=20
>=20
> >=20
>=20
> >=20
>=20
> >The congress critters of yesterday understood the = proper=20 roles of the=20
>=20
> >federal government and the states and/or people. = Today,=20 the congress=20
>=20
> >critters have usurped their power and authority by = no=20 longer following the=20
>=20
> >law. And the newspapers and the states and the = people just=20 follow right=20
>=20
> >behind like good little sheeple.=20
>=20
> >=20
>=20
> >This is why we see so many people crying out to = the=20 federal government=20
>=20
> >to take of this problem or that problem. And the = federal=20 government is more=20
>=20
> >than happy to oblige by taking more and more = power. This=20 is why I carried=20
>=20
> >it to the next level. Many people today clamor for = the UN=20 to get more and=20
>=20
> >more involved in our lives. And of course the UN = will be=20 more than happy=20
>=20
> >to oblige by taking more and more power. All this = power=20 and authority that=20
>=20
> >is being usurped by the federal government and = eventually=20 the UN means=20
>=20
> >loss of individual freedoms, let alone just the = precedent=20 that the governments=20
>=20
> >doesn't have to follow the laws. And if the = governments=20 dont have to follow=20
>=20
> >the laws, then why do the people?=20
>=20
> >=20
>=20
> >Cheers!=20
>=20
> >John Harrell=20
>=20
> >=20
>=20
> >=20
>=20
> >Donovan Arnold wrote:=20
>=20
> >=20
>=20
> >Mr Hansen,=20
>=20
> >=20
>=20
> >I strongly suggest that you take another history = course=20 with a different teacher or start talking to some other people in the = area of=20 the law. Article VI simple states that all laws on the federal level = are=20 higher then laws made in the states in that they are not in violation = of the=20 Constitution. The Constitution DOES reserve certain rights to states. = The=20 federal government can't pass laws over or in violation of this even = though=20 its laws are higher. If you knew your history you would also know that = the X=20 amendment was created to clarify this "supposed contradiction" that = people=20 were concerned about between the IX Amendment and Article VI of the=20 Constitution, question being,"How can states have rights if all laws = by the=20 Federal Government are higher then the states laws?". Rather then = giving you a=20 3 month debate of the Constitution and the rights involved, I simple = gave the=20 short version. Just as if someone asked if Alcohol was legal in the = United=20 States.! I co! uld simple say "no" or I could give you a history = between Jan.=20 16, 1919 and Dec. 5, 1933 and all the legalities behind it. I choose = to make=20 it as uncomplicated as possible for you. If you want I really get into = all the=20 complications for you and list out about 5 court cases of boring legal = documentation. It would take about 5 days to read it all. If you want = it let=20 me know, it takes about five minutes to get it for you. One other = comment,=20 "Our Forefathers" did not all have the same intentions. Some wanted a=20 federalist government, others wanted a very weak federalist government = and=20 strong state governments. Thus created the Federalist Party and the=20 Anti-Federalist Party.=20
>=20
> >=20
>=20
> >=20
>=20
> >=20
>=20
> >Thanks!=20
>=20
> >=20
>=20
> >=20
>=20
> >=20
>=20
> >=20
>=20
> >Donovan J Arnold=20
>=20
> >=20
>=20
> >=20
>=20
> >=20
>=20
> >=20
>=20
> >=20
>=20
> >=20
>=20
> > >From: "Tom Hansen"=20
>=20
> >=20
>=20
> >=20
>=20
> >=20
>=20
> > >Reply-To:=20
>=20
> >=20
>=20
> >=20
>=20
> >=20
>=20
> > >To: "Donovan Arnold" , , ,=20
>=20
> >=20
>=20
> >=20
>=20
> >=20
>=20
> > >Subject: RE: [Vision2020] Fed Educational = Funding=20
>=20
> >=20
>=20
> >=20
>=20
> >=20
>=20
> > >Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2003 05:59:36 -0700=20
>=20
> >=20
>=20
> >=20
>=20
> >=20
>=20
> > >=20
>=20
> >=20
>=20
> >=20
>=20
> >=20
>=20
> > >Donovan Arnold states:=20
>=20
> >=20
>=20
> >=20
>=20
> >=20
>=20
> > >=20
>=20
> >=20
>=20
> >=20
>=20
> >=20
>=20
> > >"The tenth amendment also states that all = rights not=20 defined or prohibited=20
>=20
> >=20
>=20
> >=20
>=20
> >=20
>=20
> > >by the constitution are reserved to the = people. Or in=20 other words, the=20
>=20
> >=20
>=20
> >=20
>=20
> >=20
>=20
> > >people can make laws that are not in direct = violation=20 with US Constitution."=20
>=20
> >=20
>=20
> >=20
>=20
> >=20
>=20
> > >=20
>=20
> >=20
>=20
> >=20
>=20
> >=20
>=20
> > >Mr. Arnold: You obviously failed to read = Article VI=20 of the US Constitution.=20
>=20
> >=20
>=20
> >=20
>=20
> >=20
>=20
> > >It reads:=20
>=20
> >=20
>=20
> >=20
>=20
> >=20
>=20
> > >=20
>=20
> >=20
>=20
> >=20
>=20
> >=20
>=20
> > >" . . . This Constitution, and the laws of = the United=20 States which shall be=20
>=20
> >=20
>=20
> >=20
>=20
> >=20
>=20
> > >made in pursuance thereof; and all treaties = made, or=20 which shall be made,=20
>=20
> >=20
>=20
> >=20
>=20
> >=20
>=20
> > >under the authority of the United States, = shall be=20 the supreme law of the=20
>=20
> >=20
>=20
> >=20
>=20
> >=20
>=20
> > >land; and the judges in every state shall be = bound=20 thereby, anything in the=20
>=20
> >=20
>=20
> >=20
>=20
> >=20
>=20
> > >Constitution or laws of any State to the = contrary=20 notwithstanding."=20
>=20
> >=20
>=20
> >=20
>=20
> >=20
>=20
> > >=20
>=20
> >=20
>=20
> >=20
>=20
> >=20
>=20
> > >I believe that this is not a contradiction. = We had=20 discussed this in a=20
>=20
> >=20
>=20
> >=20
>=20
> >=20
>=20
> > >couple of US History courses I have attended. = Our=20 forefathers' intentions=20
>=20
> >=20
>=20
> >=20
>=20
> >=20
>=20
> > >were, to put it in laymens' terms, to relay = all=20 rights not deined within the=20
>=20
> >=20
>=20
> >=20
>=20
> >=20
>=20
> > >US Constitution to the individual states, = provided=20 that any laws or=20
>=20
> >=20
>=20
> >=20
>=20
> >=20
>=20
> > >constitutions established within the = individual=20 states are not in violation=20
>=20
> >=20
>=20
> >=20
>=20
> >=20
>=20
> > >with the US Constitution, the "supreme law of = the=20 land".=20
>=20
> >=20
>=20
> >=20
>=20
> >=20
>=20
> > >=20
>=20
> >=20
>=20
> >=20
>=20
> >=20
>=20
> > >Tom Hansen=20
>=20
> >=20
>=20
> >=20
>=20
> >=20
>=20
> > >Moscow=20
>=20
> >=20
>=20
> >=20
>=20
> >=20
>=20
> > >=20
>=20
> >=20
>=20
> >=20
>=20
> >=20
>=20
> >=20
>=20
> >=20
>=20
> >=20
>=20
> >=20
>=20
> >=20
>=20
> >=20
>=20
> >---------------------------------=20
>=20
> >Help STOP SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months = FREE*=20
>=20
> >=20
>=20
> >---------------------------------=20
>=20
> >Do you Yahoo!?=20
>=20
> >Free online calendar with sync to Outlook(TM).=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>---------------------------------=20
>Protect your PC - Click here for McAfee.com VirusScan = Online=20 _____________________________________________________ List services = made=20 available by First Step Internet, serving the communities of the = Palouse since=20 1994. http://www.fsr.net mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com=20 = =AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF= =AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF= =AF=AF=AF=20
>=20
>=20
>---------------------------------=20
>Do you Yahoo!?=20
>Free online calendar with sync to Outlook(TM).=20

MSN 8 helps ELIMINATE E-MAIL=20 VIRUSES. Get 2 months FREE*. ------=_NextPart_000_0004_01C3293B.83AB3270-- From thansen@moscow.com Tue Jun 3 03:29:25 2003 From: thansen@moscow.com (Tom Hansen) Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2003 19:29:25 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] First Step Tech Examines Dale's 38 K Post In-Reply-To: <001901c32973$2714ac70$ca01a8c0@home> Message-ID: Again. It is quite simple to understand. For example, if you (and you alone) have the hottest, most recent bleeding edge version of a project presentation application (Say Microsoft PowerPoint, Version 2005 for the sake of arguments). The bottom line is that you will get tired of sending yourself Microsoft PowerPoint files since nobody else would be able to view the file. As far as viewing graphs and graphics is concerned, for the cost of $35.00 per month, you can purchase 50 megabytes of memory on a First Step Internet server and use it as your own virtual server. I do. It works absolutely great for posting all types of materials that would otherwise tie up an e-mail server. Mine is: http://www.tomandrodna.com named after myself (Tom) and my wife (Rodna), thus TomandRodna.com Now, isn;;t that alot easier than . . . . Tom Hansen Moscow > -----Original Message----- > From: vision2020-admin@moscow.com [mailto:vision2020-admin@moscow.com]On > Behalf Of Dale Courtney > Sent: Monday, June 02, 2003 6:55 PM > To: vision2020@moscow.com > Subject: RE: [Vision2020] First Step Tech Examines Dale's 38 K Post > > > Sigh, > > If it is the desire of the list that we shift to text-based Email > (something > that hasn't been the standard since RTF and HTML Email were available 8 > years ago), I will comply. But we'll be the only list in the world that > reverts back 5+ generations in Internet technology. :( > > However, there are things that can only be conveyed to many people via > graphs and colors. > > Perhaps my graphs were too effective? > > Best, > Dale > > > _____________________________________________________ > List services made available by First Step Internet, > serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994. > http://www.fsr.net > mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com > ///////////////////////////////////////////////////// > From donovanarnold@hotmail.com Tue Jun 3 04:11:24 2003 From: donovanarnold@hotmail.com (Donovan Arnold) Date: Mon, 02 Jun 2003 20:11:24 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] Fed Educational Funding Message-ID:

Tom,

What do you mean "WHAT?!?!."

 What is the original post you made Tom? Why do you think the "Title" on the email threat is called "Federal Educational Funding"? Did you think that meant something other then the topic of "Federal Educational Funding"? Like say maybe you thought it was, the Tenth Amendment, or just anything regarding the Constitution in general?

 In your original post to me you said "$26 Billion is a lot of money". Where in the Constitution does it say they can they do this? Then you asked where in the UN Charter it mentions they can spend money on education. The email seemed rather multidirectional and pointless to me, but I answered it anyway.

Do you deny that you said this?

If so you need to check past posts you sent me. You tell me, what was your original post to me after my reply to Phil Roderick's email means then? What did you intend it to mean? You needed to explain this in your original email rather then just saying my interpretation is wrong and jumping to emotional outbursts and accusations as to the intent of my reply. This shows a serious lack of emotional maturity. I apologize if I misunderstood. Write for clarity not just to take up character space on the email.

 Obviously you aren't typing anything coherently if that is not what you meant and you frequently do this. For Example: If you are going to talk about the X Amendment then mention the X Amendment, don't talk in riddles. Better yet, run spelling and grammar check before you send a post. Reading your emails should not require the acquisition of the Rosetta Stone. No disrespect intended Tom, but you don't write like normal people I communicate with via email and are bound to be misunderstood when you do that. And please stop calling me Mr. Arnold eight times in the same email, I am clear on what my name is and after I see my name at the top of the page I am certain that you are talking to throughout the rest of document unless you mention a new name.

Take care!

Donovan J Arnold


Tired of spam? Get advanced junk mail protection with MSN 8. From donovanarnold@hotmail.com Tue Jun 3 04:28:50 2003 From: donovanarnold@hotmail.com (Donovan Arnold) Date: Mon, 02 Jun 2003 20:28:50 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] Fed Educational Funding Message-ID: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_5c52_7a11_1138 Content-Type: text/html

I meant to say John, not Tom. Sorry about that. I ask what you think this means or if you think it is wrong to think that this means we were talking abou the Federal Government's Constitutional right to fund education.

Here is the Orginial email:

"Mr. Donovan Arnold,

"Never mind the federal government spends about $26 Billion on education.." That is an awful lot of money the federal government is spending. I am sure you went to school. Can you show me where in the constitution the federal government is authorized to be spending this money on education? Then, can you show me where in the UN Charter, it is authorized to be spending money on education? So my next question would be, if the federal government can be spending this money on education, why not the UN? I am curious as to where we draw the line, if one should even be drawn, regarding who (or what entity) should be spending money on education. 

>Cheers!

>John Harrell"

 

Thanks!

Donovan J Arnold 

>From: "Donovan Arnold"
>To: thansen@moscow.com, johnbharrell@yahoo.com, vision2020@moscow.com
>Subject: RE: [Vision2020] Fed Educational Funding
>Date: Mon, 02 Jun 2003 20:11:24 -0700
>

MSN 8 helps ELIMINATE E-MAIL VIRUSES. Get 2 months FREE*. ------=_NextPart_000_5c52_7a11_1138 Content-Type: message/rfc822 X-Message-Info: zVLtYL4Cdkk3fUvJpQjdXcrkAmmBtgq4 Received: from mc8-f20.law1.hotmail.com ([65.54.253.156]) by mc8-s1.law1.hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.5600); Mon, 2 Jun 2003 20:13:13 -0700 Received: from whale2.fsr.net ([207.141.26.23]) by mc8-f20.law1.hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.5600); Mon, 2 Jun 2003 20:13:12 -0700 Received: from whale2.fsr.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by whale2.fsr.net (8.12.3/8.12.3) with ESMTP id h533C3QU074645; Mon, 2 Jun 2003 20:12:03 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from vision2020-admin@moscow.com) Received: from psmtp.com (exprod5mx78.postini.com [12.158.34.208]) by whale2.fsr.net (8.12.3/8.12.3) with SMTP id h533BVQU074043; Mon, 2 Jun 2003 20:11:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from donovanarnold@hotmail.com) Received: from source ([207.141.24.20]) by exprod5mx78.postini.com ([12.158.34.245]) with SMTP; Mon, 02 Jun 2003 20:11:25 PDT Received: from hotmail.com (law11-f108.law11.hotmail.com [64.4.17.108]) by fsr.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h533BTQ56925; Mon, 2 Jun 2003 20:11:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from donovanarnold@hotmail.com) Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Mon, 2 Jun 2003 20:11:24 -0700 Received: from 172.199.189.215 by lw11fd.law11.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Tue, 03 Jun 2003 03:11:24 GMT X-Originating-IP: [172.199.189.215] X-Originating-Email: [donovanarnold@hotmail.com] From: "Donovan Arnold" To: thansen@moscow.com, johnbharrell@yahoo.com, vision2020@moscow.com Subject: RE: [Vision2020] Fed Educational Funding Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 03 Jun 2003 03:11:24.0830 (UTC) FILETIME=[D0DCFBE0:01C3297D] Sender: vision2020-admin@moscow.com Errors-To: vision2020-admin@moscow.com X-BeenThere: vision2020@moscow.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.10 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Moscow/Latah county community discussion list List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Mon, 02 Jun 2003 20:11:24 -0700 Return-Path: vision2020-admin@moscow.com

Tom,

What do you mean "WHAT?!?!."

 What is the original post you made Tom? Why do you think the "Title" on the email threat is called "Federal Educational Funding"? Did you think that meant something other then the topic of "Federal Educational Funding"? Like say maybe you thought it was, the Tenth Amendment, or just anything regarding the Constitution in general?

 In your original post to me you said "$26 Billion is a lot of money". Where in the Constitution does it say they can they do this? Then you asked where in the UN Charter it mentions they can spend money on education. The email seemed rather multidirectional and pointless to me, but I answered it anyway.

Do you deny that you said this?

If so you need to check past posts you sent me. You tell me, what was your original post to me after my reply to Phil Roderick's email means then? What did you intend it to mean? You needed to explain this in your original email rather then just saying my interpretation is wrong and jumping to emotional outbursts and accusations as to the intent of my reply. This shows a serious lack of emotional maturity. I apologize if I misunderstood. Write for clarity not just to take up character space on the email.

 Obviously you aren't typing anything coherently if that is not what you meant and you frequently do this. For Example: If you are going to talk about the X Amendment then mention the X Amendment, don't talk in riddles. Better yet, run spelling and grammar check before you send a post. Reading your emails should not require the acquisition of the Rosetta Stone. No disrespect intended Tom, but you don't write like normal people I communicate with via email and are bound to be misunderstood when you do that. And please stop calling me Mr. Arnold eight times in the same email, I am clear on what my name is and after I see my name at the top of the page I am certain that you are talking to throughout the rest of document unless you mention a new name.

Take care!

Donovan J Arnold


Tired of spam? Get advanced junk mail protection with MSN 8. _____________________________________________________ List services made available by First Step Internet, serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994. http://www.fsr.net mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ ------=_NextPart_000_5c52_7a11_1138-- From ted_moffett@hotmail.com Tue Jun 3 05:51:05 2003 From: ted_moffett@hotmail.com (Ted Moffett) Date: Tue, 03 Jun 2003 04:51:05 +0000 Subject: [Vision2020] Fed Educational Funding Message-ID: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_11eb_7ed6_613c Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Tom: Now I see Donovan has who he is talking to confused. Well, we all make mistakes, but considering Donovan's intelligence these two posts make me wonder... especially chastising someone else about grammatical errors when the very post making these statements contains blatant errors. Anyways, this debate on the US Constitution inspires me to study the document more fully. Ted >From: "Donovan Arnold" >To: donovanarnold@hotmail.com, thansen@moscow.com, johnbharrell@yahoo.com, > vision2020@moscow.com >Subject: RE: [Vision2020] Fed Educational Funding >Date: Mon, 02 Jun 2003 20:28:50 -0700 > ><< message3.txt >> _________________________________________________________________ Tired of spam? Get advanced junk mail protection with MSN 8. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail ------=_NextPart_000_11eb_7ed6_613c Content-Type: text/html

I meant to say John, not Tom. Sorry about that. I ask what you think this means or if you think it is wrong to think that this means we were talking abou the Federal Government's Constitutional right to fund education.

Here is the Orginial email:

"Mr. Donovan Arnold,

"Never mind the federal government spends about $26 Billion on education.." That is an awful lot of money the federal government is spending. I am sure you went to school. Can you show me where in the constitution the federal government is authorized to be spending this money on education? Then, can you show me where in the UN Charter, it is authorized to be spending money on education? So my next question would be, if the federal government can be spending this money on education, why not the UN? I am curious as to where we draw the line, if one should even be drawn, regarding who (or what entity) should be spending money on education. 

>Cheers!

>John Harrell"

 

Thanks!

Donovan J Arnold 

>From: "Donovan Arnold"
>To: thansen@moscow.com, johnbharrell@yahoo.com, vision2020@moscow.com
>Subject: RE: [Vision2020] Fed Educational Funding
>Date: Mon, 02 Jun 2003 20:11:24 -0700
>

MSN 8 helps ELIMINATE E-MAIL VIRUSES. Get 2 months FREE*. ------=_NextPart_000_11eb_7ed6_613c-- From lukenieuwsma@softhome.net Mon Jun 2 06:14:45 2003 From: lukenieuwsma@softhome.net (Luke) Date: Sun, 1 Jun 2003 22:14:45 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] Religious Diversity Education References: Message-ID: <05ea01c3298c$a1f71270$2f00a8c0@MOBILELUKE> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0528_01C3288B.356DA850 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello, Don: >This is incorrect. Hitler only espoused that garbage, he didn't believe = it himself (only people that don't >have a life believe this). He sure did a great job of convincing a nation for not believing it. > My point was also that you are hypocritical to say that when Hussein = and Osama claim to be of >God and slaughter people in the name of their = "faith" that you accept that as a true proclamation of >the "Muslim = faith". However, when people like Hitler, and countless numbers of Kings = and Queens, >and other religious leaders slaughter people in the name of = their "faith" in Christianity you reject it? >Why do you use one = standard to judge one group of people and another standard to judge = another >group of people? Hitler didn't use Christianity, he used deism. Napoleon used = Catholicism, which is different than biblical Christianity. I'm not = using two standards.=20 >So when you do this, others that are just as fanatical as you but of = another faith see your injustice >and hypocrisy in how you judge you = give ammunition to them to disarm others trying to get people to >see = the righteousness of Christ.=20 I am not fanatical in the same way that countless of jihad suicide = bombers have been fanatical. It is bloody murder to kill someone because = they don't serve the true God, and I would never do such a thing. >If I knew nothing of the Muslim Faith or of the Christian Faith, and = were wishing to establish a faith, I >would most likely choose the = Muslim faith based on the hypocritical nature that you use to judge = people. >Christians have slaughtered more people, own more wealth, and = try to control more people then any >other group of people under any = other religious faith.=20 What's wrong with owning wealth? What's wrong with being in positions of = authority? But as to the slaughtering issue, it seems you don't know your history = too well. To recount the rise of Islam briefly: Shortly after Mohammed took Medina in the 7th and 8th centuries, = hundreds of thousands of those who you would call "radical Muslims" = overthrew the rest of Saudi Arabia in bloody war, slaughtering their = enemies. Next came Persia, Iraq, Syria, Egypt, and Constantinople. Then = the rest of Northern Africa fell to the swords of the Muslims, and they = proceeded to invade Spain and Portugal. The Moores were known for ages = as cruel and harsh, and these were the early Muslims who made it into = the European continent. Charles Martel faced them in battle and defeated their armies, keeping = them from taking control of all of Europe. Thousands of Europeans headed = into Palestine after it, too, had been seized, raped, and pillaged by = invading Muslims on a long, drawn-out jihad. The European occupations, = all ill-fated, were known as Crusades and were not conducted by = Christians but young men wanting adventure from all parts of European = society. Yet they were only trying to win back what the Muslims had = invaded.=20 And then there's Africa, which over time has slowly become = Muslim-dominated, where constant wars, famines, and slaughter are = common-place things. BTW, in the late 1990's began an anti-white, = anti-American movement throughout Africa where white farmers, Christian = or not, are being attacked and their farms and homes are being = destroyed. Millions have died, absolutely millions, through the work of = true Muslims, not fake or hypocritical Muslims. I have nothing personally to hate them for, but I pity them. Their Koran = says specifically that if a Muslim warrior dies fighting in the name of = Allah, he will wake up in paradise with 70+ hot chicks for his pleasure. = So, they go kill themselves in suicide bombings in the name of Allah, = and they do it sincerely (which has been happening a lot since Reagan). As to whether God is still taught in the public schools, you must not be = up very much on what is taught in the science classes. I know as certain = fact that children today are taught that they evolved through random = chance from primordal goo into primates, and then into successively = developed animals, finally arriving as humans. This leaves no room for = God, whose absence you will hear affirmed if you talk to the average = public school biology teacher nationwide. Luke=20 P.S. Re the "How do you teach" series (constitution, Luther, = multiculturalism, history, etc) none of these things really matter if = we're all animals, without souls. ------=_NextPart_000_0528_01C3288B.356DA850 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
 
Hello, Don:
 
 
>This is incorrect. Hitler only espoused that garbage, he didn't = believe=20 it himself (only people that don't >have a life believe this).
 
He sure did a great job of convincing a = nation for=20 not believing it.
 
> My point was also that you are hypocritical to say that = when=20 Hussein and Osama claim to be of >God and slaughter people in the = name of=20 their "faith" that you accept that as a true proclamation of >the = "Muslim=20 faith". However, when people like Hitler, and countless numbers of Kings = and=20 Queens, >and other religious leaders slaughter people in the name of = their=20 "faith" in Christianity you reject it? >Why do you use one standard = to judge=20 one group of people and another standard to judge another >group of=20 people?
 
Hitler didn't use Christianity, he used = deism.=20 Napoleon used Catholicism, which is different than biblical = Christianity. I'm=20 not using two standards.
 
>So when you do this, others that are just as fanatical as you = but of=20 another faith see your injustice >and hypocrisy in how you judge you = give=20 ammunition to them to disarm others trying to get people to >see the=20 righteousness of Christ.
 
I am not fanatical in the same way that = countless=20 of jihad suicide bombers have been fanatical. It is bloody murder to = kill=20 someone because they don't serve the true God, and I would never do such = a=20 thing.
 

>If I knew nothing of the Muslim Faith or of the Christian Faith, = and were=20 wishing to establish a faith, I >would most likely choose the Muslim = faith=20 based on the hypocritical nature that you use to judge people. = >Christians=20 have slaughtered more people, own more wealth, and try to control more = people=20 then any >other group of people under any other religious faith.

What's wrong with owning wealth? What's wrong with being in positions = of=20 authority?

But as to the slaughtering issue, it seems you don't know your = history too=20 well. To recount the rise of Islam briefly:

 Shortly after Mohammed took Medina in the 7th and 8th = centuries,=20 hundreds of thousands of those who you would call "radical Muslims" = overthrew=20 the rest of Saudi Arabia in bloody war, slaughtering their enemies. Next = came=20 Persia, Iraq, Syria, Egypt, and Constantinople. Then the rest of = Northern Africa=20 fell to the swords of the Muslims, and they proceeded to invade Spain = and=20 Portugal. The Moores were known for ages as cruel and harsh, and these = were the=20 early Muslims who made it into the European continent.

Charles Martel faced them in battle and defeated their armies, = keeping them=20 from taking control of all of Europe. Thousands of Europeans headed into = Palestine after it, too, had been seized, raped, and pillaged by = invading=20 Muslims on a long, drawn-out jihad. The European occupations, all = ill-fated,=20 were known as Crusades and were not conducted by Christians but young = men=20 wanting adventure from all parts of European society. Yet they were only = trying=20 to win back what the Muslims had invaded.

And then there's Africa, which over time has slowly become = Muslim-dominated,=20 where constant wars, famines, and slaughter are common-place things. = BTW, in the=20 late 1990's began an anti-white, anti-American movement throughout = Africa where=20 white farmers, Christian or not, are being attacked and their farms and = homes=20 are being destroyed. Millions have died, absolutely millions, through = the work=20 of true Muslims, not fake or hypocritical Muslims.

I have nothing personally to hate them for, but I pity them. Their = Koran says=20 specifically that if a Muslim warrior dies fighting in the name of = Allah, he=20 will wake up in paradise with 70+ hot chicks for his pleasure. So, they = go kill=20 themselves in suicide bombings in the name of Allah, and they do it = sincerely=20 (which has been happening a lot since Reagan).

 

As to whether God is still taught in the public schools, you must not = be up=20 very much on what is taught in the science classes. I know as = certain=20 fact that children today are taught that they evolved through random = chance=20 from primordal goo into primates, and then into successively developed = animals,=20 finally arriving as humans. This leaves no room for God, whose absence = you will=20 hear affirmed if you talk to the average public school biology teacher=20 nationwide.

Luke

P.S. Re the "How do you teach" series (constitution, Luther,=20 multiculturalism, history, etc) none of these things really matter if = we're all=20 animals, without souls.

------=_NextPart_000_0528_01C3288B.356DA850-- From mystic_chic1021@yahoo.com Tue Jun 3 07:35:07 2003 From: mystic_chic1021@yahoo.com (mysticchic) Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2003 23:35:07 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Vision2020] MSD Message-ID: <20030603063507.74690.qmail@web14403.mail.yahoo.com> --0-459066433-1054622107=:74471 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Everyday I read the little battles that ensue back and forth among many of you....Normally I just sit back a get a chuckle every now and then... As a parent of a low income public educated student I have taken offense to the critical outlook that a few gentleman have expressed.... I am fully involved with my child's education for no other purpose, other than the fact that it is important that my child succeeds in life....Moscow School District is full of low income students with active parents, pretty much with the same goal in mind...We are very grateful for the education that our children receive.....This school district has many great teachers who really give a lot more of themselves than they will ever be compensated for....As a graduate of the Moscow school district I see how much more they have to offer the students now then they did when I grew up here....So to all of you who pay the taxes and yes this includes myself I thank you for the future success of my children --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Free online calendar with sync to Outlook(TM). --0-459066433-1054622107=:74471 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
Everyday I read the little battles that ensue back and forth among many of you....Normally I just sit back a get a chuckle every now and then...
As a parent of a low income public educated student I have taken offense to the critical outlook that a few gentleman have expressed....
I am fully involved with my child's education for no other purpose, other than the fact that it is important that my child succeeds in life....Moscow School District is full of low income students with active parents, pretty much with the same goal in mind...We are very grateful for the education that our children receive.....This school district has many great teachers who really give a lot more of themselves than they will ever be compensated for....As a graduate of the Moscow school district I see how much more they have to offer the students now then they did when I grew up here....So to all of you who pay the taxes and yes this includes myself I thank you for the future success of my children

Do you Yahoo!?
Free online calendar with sync to Outlook(TM). --0-459066433-1054622107=:74471-- From donovanarnold@hotmail.com Tue Jun 3 08:19:19 2003 From: donovanarnold@hotmail.com (Donovan Arnold) Date: Tue, 03 Jun 2003 00:19:19 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] Religious Diversity Education Message-ID:

Hi Luke,

I wrote: This is incorrect. Hitler only espoused that garbage, he didn't believe it himself (only people that don't >have a life believe this).

You Wrote: He sure did a great job of convincing a nation for not believing it.

That was the point Luke, to convince people of false pride so they would work for his purposes. It is kind of hard to motivate people when they think they are worthless, beaten down, humiliated, and stripped of pride like they were after WWI. This is the best way to motivate them by telling them that they are superior to others and that nothing can stop them. He was quoted as saying, "If the Jews did not exist it would have been necessary to invent them." It is not too shocking that a man as intelligent and gifted as Hitler could say one thing and really think another, politicians have been doing this since the beginning of time.

I wrote: My point was also that you are hypocritical to say that when Hussein and Osama claim to be of >God and slaughter people in the name of their "faith" that you accept that as a true proclamation of >the "Muslim faith". However, when people like Hitler, and countless numbers of Kings and Queens, >and other religious leaders slaughter people in the name of their "faith" in Christianity you reject it? >Why do you use one standard to judge one group of people and another standard to judge another >group of people?
>

You responded by saying:

"Hitler didn't use Christianity, he used deism. Napoleon used Catholicism, which is different than biblical Christianity. I'm not using two standards."

First, Deism is the belief that God exists but he does not take an active role. Hitler did not believe this. In fact, he believed that God saved his life three times. Once when he was a Corporal in WWI and the entire division was wiped out except his unit because they stayed put as for an unknown cause in a breakdown in the communications of an order for them to move forward with another unit that was wiped out. Once when he walked out moments before a bomb went off. And a third time when high ranking officers tried to assign him and failed. He espoused in public repeatedly that it was God that stepping in and saved him. Deism states exactly the opposite of this.

Not only did Hitler claim Christ, God, and Christianity in many of his speeches, pamphlets, and movies, by but also even used the Cross on many of his military equipment, uniforms, and medals he awarded to soldiers.

Second, The first definition of Roman Catholic in the Webster Dictionary is: "of the Christian Church." You can NOT get more Christian then that. The Webster Dictionary of Christian is: a believer of Jesus as the Christ or in the religion based on the teachings of Christ. Your statement that "Napoleon used Catholicism, which is different than biblical Christianity". There is no such thing as 'Biblical Christianity'." It is not listed anywhere or any definition of it anywhere. It is nonexistent. If you follow the Bible then you follow Judaism. If you are Christian then you follow Christ. Otherwise, you claim your own faith separate from the other two. Which is fine, but it is not Christianity or Judaism. There is no such thing as "Judaic Christianity" in any real sense as you are claiming exists.

Third,

Even if you were correct about your assumptions about Hitler and Napoleon , which you are not based on the greater minds of society, that is only two people and there are millions that slaughtered in the name of Christianity. They put crosses on their swords. 

I wrote: So when you do this, others that are just as fanatical as you but of another faith see your injustice >and hypocrisy in how you judge you give ammunition to them to disarm others trying to get people to >see the righteousness of Christ."
>

You replied: "I am not fanatical in the same way that countless of jihad suicide bombers have been fanatical. It is bloody murder to kill someone because they don't serve the true God, and I would never do such a thing."

You are fanatical in a different way, with words and ideas. This can be just as or more damaging in a spiritual sense because you are changing souls not just taking the physical lives of people. Which is more important, the soul or the body? Bombing people does not change their beliefs, it just kills and wounds them.

I wrote: "If I knew nothing of the Muslim Faith or of the Christian Faith, and were wishing to establish a faith, I >would most likely choose the Muslim faith based on the hypocritical nature that you use to judge people. >Christians have slaughtered more people, own more wealth, and try to control more people then any >other group of people under any other religious faith."
>

>You replied: "What's wrong with owning wealth? What's wrong with being in positions of authority?"

Nothing, it is just the word "slaughtering" that was suppose to get your attention. True Christians would use their power and wealth to help people, not kill them.

You Wrote:

>"But as to the slaughtering issue, it seems you don't know your history too well. To recount the rise of Islam briefly:  Shortly after Mohammed took Medina in the 7th and 8th centuries, hundreds of thousands of those who you would call "radical Muslims" overthrew the rest of Saudi Arabia in bloody war, slaughtering their enemies. Next came Persia, Iraq, Syria, Egypt, and Constantinople. Then the rest of Northern Africa fell to the swords of the Muslims, and they proceeded to invade Spain and Portugal. The Moores were known for ages as cruel and harsh, and these were the early Muslims who made it into the European continent."

Humm, well Christians did same things but in the centuries of 900, 1000, 1100, 1200, 1300, 1400, 1500, 1600, 1700, 1800, 1900, and 2000. They also did this more then just in Europe and the middle east. They also did it in North America, South America, Centeral America, Austriala, the Artice Circle, Asia, Japan, Indonesia, Hawaii, Phillipens, and Africa. I would also like to point out that their were more people to slaughter during these centuries then the 7th and 8th. >

You said that:

"Their Koran says specifically that if a Muslim warrior dies fighting in the name of Allah, he will wake up in paradise with 70+ hot chicks for his pleasure."

Which verse in the Korean specifically mentions  "he will wake up in paradise with 70+ hot chicks".

You said:

"So, they go kill themselves in suicide bombings in the name of Allah, and they do it sincerely (which has been happening a lot since Reagan)."

Well, perhaps this is because Reagan funded Iranians to kill Iraqis, funded Iraqis to kill Iranians and gas their own people, funded Isreailtes to kill Palastinians,and stopped funding Afganishtan that then sunk to the poorest nation in the world for its size. Now if that woundn't get your panties in a bunch if you were them you must be a man of steel. Or maybe they do it just because Reagan's poor acting skills in Bonzo.

Take Care,

Donovan J Arnold 


Tired of spam? Get advanced junk mail protection with MSN 8. From jeanlivingston@turbonet.com Tue Jun 3 08:43:58 2003 From: jeanlivingston@turbonet.com (Bruce and Jean Livingston) Date: Tue, 3 Jun 2003 00:43:58 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] First Step Tech Examines Dale's 38 K Post References: <001901c32973$2714ac70$ca01a8c0@home> Message-ID: <00cc01c329a3$e5928a20$bf70e4ce@momanddad> I enjoyed reading Mr. Courtney's graphs, which were not especially large files -- as far as downloading them by my dial-up telephone link to Turbonet was concerned -- and I would recommend that he and others continue using them. His message downloaded far quicker than a picture -- which is a much larger drain/bottleneck in terms of bandwidth -- and I think the graphics are better than a word description. How much slower than my 56 k telephone modem can the mechanism for downloading be in the computers of you complainers? A primitive, early to mid '90s modem at 28k would only be half as slow as mine. Mr. Courtney and I don't always agree, but he expresses himself clearly and thoughtfully, and in my opinion, his messages, even with judiciously chosen graphics, are appropriate for this list. Frankly, I'd rather read his presentations, even if I disagree with them, than spend as much time as I do hitting the delete button to avoid reading some of the repetitive posters who so love to see themselves in print. I recommend that we not revert to stone knives and bearskins. Bruce Livingston ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dale Courtney" To: Sent: Monday, June 02, 2003 6:55 PM Subject: RE: [Vision2020] First Step Tech Examines Dale's 38 K Post | Sigh, | | If it is the desire of the list that we shift to text-based Email (something | that hasn't been the standard since RTF and HTML Email were available 8 | years ago), I will comply. But we'll be the only list in the world that | reverts back 5+ generations in Internet technology. :( | | However, there are things that can only be conveyed to many people via | graphs and colors. | | Perhaps my graphs were too effective? | | Best, | Dale | | | _____________________________________________________ | List services made available by First Step Internet, | serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994. | http://www.fsr.net | mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com | ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ | From thansen@moscow.com Tue Jun 3 13:39:28 2003 From: thansen@moscow.com (Tom Hansen) Date: Tue, 3 Jun 2003 05:39:28 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] Religious Diversity Education In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Unless there is something that the history books are not telling us, I believe that Hitler believed every word he espoused. Just take a quick review of the English version of Mein Kamp (My Struggle) that he wrote from a jail cell. The idiot was brain-baked. Tom Hansen Moscow, Idaho From dale@courtneys.us Tue Jun 3 14:44:18 2003 From: dale@courtneys.us (Dale Courtney) Date: Tue, 3 Jun 2003 06:44:18 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] MSD trends In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <007a01c329d6$3b8e0850$ca01a8c0@home> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_007B_01C3299B.8F2F3050 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Replying to Donovan: * Donovan says that MSD has only lost 325 students since its high in 1998.=20 * That is incorrect. MSD's high was in 1993 (2,788 students).=20 * They have been losing students every year since 1993.=20 * Is that a trend? Well, if losing 50 students per year for the last 10 years isn't a trend, then I sure don't know what one is! * He talks about gaining different numbers in different grades making it difficult to gage where how many teachers you need.=20 * However, those numbers are well known by MSD.=20 * In fact, the Superintendent herself said that the numbers in the Elementary are decreasing at a higher rate than Junior/High School. Her concern (rightly) is that those Elementary grades feed into the Junior = High and High School. One reason for not pursing a new high school facility = was that she knows 6 years from now she's going to have 300 less children = than she does today! * Also, Donovan notes that the Census shows that Latah County and Moscow have an increasing elementary/secondary student population.=20 * He is right. We've been thru that on this list before:=20 * MSD continues to decrease at a rate of 50 students per year.=20 * Yet Moscow overall increases at a rate of 30-35 students per year (per the 2000 census).=20 * How odd! Where are those 80-85 students per year going? Perhaps MSD should hire a private investigator to find out. * I agree that much of the cost requirements have been imposed upon the government schools by the government. But hey! You work for the = boss. If Uncle Sam is going to give you the money, you have to do what he says. That's the beauty of the private sector. If parents say something is a = bogus requirement, they don't have to pay for it. * e.g., if a group of parents want to lay out an additional $500/year/child for top-notched sports programs, let them. But if = someone else wants to make use of community sports programs and only pay = educators to educate, then they should have that right (and get a better education = for less).=20 * Same thing with "shop", "typing", "home economics", etc. Parents can chose whether they want their kids in a more rigorous academic program = or in a more VoTech type of program. * My comparisons of private (non-parochial) schools to government schools were meant to be an apples-to-apples comparison. You cannot = compare Higher Ed costs to elementary/secondary school costs. One would think = that the former would be more expensive. As it turns out, it's not. Go = figure!=20 * You talk about monopolies and use telephones, computers, and railways as examples of natural monopolies. Those are products; a = monopoly is a company with a product line. A natural monopoly only exist where = the government legislates one to exist (locally: Verizon, Avista, etc) or subsidizes one to exist. The government schools are as much of a = monopoly as the US Postal Service was -- and we see how good competition was for = them. We know that FedEx,=20 * Finally, you really amuse me with the talk about "You owe the government; they don't owe you". That seems like a very neo-fascist statement. In a democracy, the people are the government. If I owe = someone a "thanks", it's those who have been "thugged" for everything that I now = have. However, it's kind of difficult to thank someone for being economically assaulted so that I could benefit. When we're paying taxes at a the near = 50% level, that's not a time to offer thanks. BTW, do you know how much = taxes were raised to cause the Boston Tea Party?=20 Best, Dale ------=_NextPart_000_007B_01C3299B.8F2F3050 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message
Replying to Donovan:
  • Donovan says that MSD has only lost 325 students since its = high in=20 1998.
    • That is incorrect. MSD's high was in 1993 (2,788 students). =
    • They have been losing students every year since=20 1993.=20
    • Is=20 that a trend? Well, if losing 50 students per year for the last 10 = years=20 isn't a trend, then I sure don't know what one = is!
  • He=20 talks about gaining different numbers in different grades making it = difficult=20 to gage where how many teachers you need.
    • However, those numbers are well known by MSD. =
    • In=20 fact, the Superintendent herself said that the numbers in the = Elementary are=20 decreasing at a higher rate than Junior/High School. Her concern = (rightly)=20 is that those Elementary grades feed into the Junior High and High = School.=20 One reason for not pursing a new high school facility was that she = knows 6=20 years from now she's going to have 300 less children than she does=20 today!
  • Also,=20 Donovan notes that the Census shows that Latah County and Moscow have = an=20 increasing elementary/secondary student population.
    • He=20 is right. We've been thru that on this list before:=20
      • MSD continues to decrease at a rate of 50 students per = year.=20
      • Yet Moscow overall increases at a rate of 30-35 students = per year=20 (per the 2000 census).
      • How odd! Where are those 80-85 students per year going? = Perhaps MSD=20 should hire a private investigator to find=20 out.
  • I agree that much of the cost = requirements=20 have been imposed upon the government schools by the government. But = hey! You=20 work for the boss. If Uncle Sam is going to give you the money, you = have to do=20 what he says. That's the beauty of the private sector. If parents say=20 something is a bogus requirement, they don't have to pay for=20 it.
    • e.g., if a group of parents want to lay out an additional=20 $500/year/child for top-notched sports programs, let them. But if = someone=20 else wants to make use of community sports programs and only pay = educators=20 to educate, then they should have that right (and get a better = education for=20 less).
    • Same thing with "shop", "typing", "home economics", etc. = Parents can=20 chose whether they want their kids in a more rigorous academic = program or in=20 a more VoTech type of program.
  • My=20 comparisons of private (non-parochial) schools to government schools = were=20 meant to be an apples-to-apples comparison. You cannot compare Higher = Ed costs=20 to elementary/secondary school costs. One would think that the = former=20 would be more expensive. As it turns out, it's not. Go = figure!
  • You=20 talk about monopolies and use telephones, computers, and railways as = examples=20 of natural monopolies. Those are products; a monopoly is a=20 company with a product line. A natural monopoly only exist = where=20 the government legislates one to exist (locally: Verizon, Avista, etc) = or=20 subsidizes one to exist. The government schools are as much of a = monopoly as=20 the US Postal Service was -- and we see how good competition was for = them. We=20 know that FedEx,
  • Finally, you really amuse me with the talk about "You owe the = government; they don't owe you". That seems like a very neo-fascist = statement.=20 In a democracy, the people are the government. If I owe someone a = "thanks",=20 it's those who have been "thugged" for everything that I now have. = However,=20 it's kind of difficult to thank someone for being = economically assaulted=20 so that I could benefit. When we're paying taxes at a the near 50% = level,=20 that's not a time to offer thanks. BTW, do you know how much taxes = were raised=20 to cause the Boston Tea Party?
Best,
Dale
------=_NextPart_000_007B_01C3299B.8F2F3050-- From dale@courtneys.us Tue Jun 3 14:46:45 2003 From: dale@courtneys.us (Dale Courtney) Date: Tue, 3 Jun 2003 06:46:45 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] The myth of smaller class sizes Message-ID: <007f01c329d6$93d33b20$ca01a8c0@home> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0080_01C3299B.E7746320 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable =20 =20 Martin West (Harvard University: Program for Educational Policy and Governance) and Ludger W=F6=DFmann (Kiel Institute for World Economics) = have completed a joint research study on the effects of class sizes around = the world on results of the international math/science test, TIMMS (Third International Mathematics and Science Study). See http://www.educationnext.org/unabridged/20033/woessmann.pdf The motivation for reducing class size is intuitive: with smaller = classes, teachers should be able to devote more time to each student, both in the classroom and in giving feedback on homework and tests. However, the critique for doing so is at least threefold. *=09 Reducing class size is remarkably expensive, since it requires hiring = more personnel (and labor costs in the USA are notoriously expensive -- hence labor moving off-shore). There may be less costly reforms that are at = least as effective as class-size reduction.=20 *=09 Hiring more teachers may dilute the quality of the workforce, thereby negating any gains among the students of good teachers.=20 *=09 The intuitive relationship between class size and teachers=92 = effectiveness may not actually hold true=97teachers may be no more successful with 18 students than with 23.1=20 =20 Reducing class sizes is one of today=92s most popular education reform strategies. The Education Commission of the United States estimates that such efforts cost states $2.3 billion during the 1999=9600 school year = alone. The federal government contributed another $1.6 billion in 2000=9601 = toward meeting the Clinton administration=92s goal of decreasing class size nationwide in the early grades to no more than 18 students. During the = past year or so, the deteriorating condition of state budgets and the Bush administration=92s new emphasis on accountability have made class-size reduction less of a priority. Yet it remains popular among parents, teachers, and the teacher unions, which often promote it as an = alternative to vouchers.2 West and W=F6=DFmann found an interesting correlation -- but not one = that Statists expect or like: Only in two countries, Greece and Iceland, did making the classes smaller help student performance (because of under-educated teachers in those two countries). In all other countries, making classes smaller had little to no effect. Attached is a list of some countries with the largest student/teacher = ratios in the world. These four countries also have 4 of the 6 highest TIMMS scores. (The USA is included for comparison purposes only).=20 Country Student/Teacher Ratio TIMMS score=09 Korea 53 570=09 Hong Kong 40 545=09 Japan 37 570=09 Singapore 34 600=09 USA 28 508=09 Countries with the better scores had the higher student/teacher ratio. = In fact, if you run the correlations, you will find that student/teacher = ratio correlates to TIMMS score (read: the larger the classroom size, the = better kids scored on the TIMMS test).=20 =20 Conclusion: Student/teacher ratio is not the "fix" for the American government school system. It is increasing the overall cost of education = at the expense of actually receiving a good education. People supporting government education need to look elsewhere for their silver bullet. 1 http://www.educationnext.org/20033/56.html 2 Ibid. ------=_NextPart_000_0080_01C3299B.E7746320 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message
 

Martin West (Harvard University: Program for Educational Policy and=20 Governance) and Ludger W=F6=DFmann = (Kiel Institute for World Economics) have completed a joint research study on the effects of = class=20 sizes around the world on results of the international math/science = test, TIMMS=20 (Third International Mathematics and = Science Study).=20 See http://www.educationnext.org/unabridged/20033/woessmann.p= df

The motivation for reducing = class size is=20 intuitive: with smaller classes, teachers should be able to devote more = time to=20 each student, both in the classroom and in giving feedback on homework = and=20 tests. However, the critique for doing so is at least = threefold.

  • Reducing class size is = remarkably=20 expensive, since it requires hiring more personnel (and labor costs in = the USA=20 are notoriously expensive -- hence labor moving off-shore). There may = be less=20 costly reforms that are at least as effective as class-size = reduction.=20

  • Hiring more teachers may = dilute the=20 quality of the workforce, thereby negating any gains among the = students of=20 good teachers.

  • The intuitive relationship = between class=20 size and teachers’ effectiveness may not actually hold = true—teachers may be no=20 more successful with 18 students than with 23.1 =

3D""

Reducing class sizes is one of = today’s most=20 popular education reform strategies. The Education Commission of the = United=20 States estimates that such efforts cost states $2.3 billion = during the=20 1999–00 school year alone. The federal government contributed = another $1.6=20 billion in 2000–01 toward meeting the Clinton = administration’s goal of=20 decreasing class size nationwide in the early grades to no more than 18=20 students. During the past year or so, the deteriorating condition of = state=20 budgets and the Bush administration’s new emphasis on = accountability have made=20 class-size reduction less of a priority. Yet it remains popular among = parents,=20 teachers, and the teacher unions, which often promote it as an = alternative to=20 vouchers.2

West and W=F6=DFmann = found an interesting correlation -- but not one = that Statists expect or like: Only in two = countries,=20 Greece and Iceland, did making the classes smaller help student = performance=20 (because of under-educated teachers in those two countries). In all = other=20 countries, making classes smaller had little to no effect.

Attached is a list of some = countries with=20 the largest student/teacher ratios in the world. These four countries = also have=20 4 of the 6 highest TIMMS scores. (The USA is included for comparison = purposes=20 only).

Country Student/Teacher Ratio TIMMS score
Korea 53 570
Hong Kong 40 545
Japan 37 570
Singapore 34 600
USA 28 508

Countries with the better = scores had=20 the higher student/teacher ratio. In fact, if you run the = correlations,=20 you will find that student/teacher ratio correlates to TIMMS score = (read: the=20 larger the classroom size, the better kids scored on the TIMMS test).=20

Conclusion: Student/teacher ratio = is not the=20 "fix" for the American government school system. It is increasing the = overall=20 cost of education at the expense of actually receiving a good education. = People=20 supporting government education need to look elsewhere for their silver=20 bullet.

1  = http://www.educationn= ext.org/20033/56.html
2  Ibid.

------=_NextPart_000_0080_01C3299B.E7746320-- From thansen@moscow.com Tue Jun 3 14:55:52 2003 From: thansen@moscow.com (Tom Hansen) Date: Tue, 3 Jun 2003 06:55:52 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] The myth of smaller class sizes In-Reply-To: <007f01c329d6$93d33b20$ca01a8c0@home> Message-ID: Mr. Courtney - Based on your own posting (specifically the graph near the end), I conclude that the analysis of smaller class size and educational quality improvement here in the United States provides "inconclusive results". This clearly reflects that there is insufficient evidence (within the study) to tip the scales in either direction. Bottomline: The study was meaningless. Tom Hansen From dale@courtneys.us Tue Jun 3 15:05:52 2003 From: dale@courtneys.us (Dale Courtney) Date: Tue, 3 Jun 2003 07:05:52 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] Half-way point Message-ID: <008601c329d9$419ee400$ca01a8c0@home> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0087_01C3299E.95400C00 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Visionaries, =20 I understand now why Donovan was questioning my numbers for MSD's = half-way point.=20 =20 If you strictly look at the children who attend MSD (decreasing at ~50 = per year), then that half-way point occurs ~2013. However, I was including = the census data with the total number of school-aged children in Moscow. = Because those numbers are increasing significantly (20% per year) and MSD's are decreasing significantly, the half-way point actually occurs around 2008/2009. =20 Now, from the District's perspective, they discount the children who = they are not being paid for. However, when we look at the absolute numbers, = we must include those who are not attending the government schools in town. = =20 My apologies for confusing him and anyone else with this distinction.=20 =20 Best, Dale Courtney ---------- Numquam bella piis, numquam certamina desunt. =20 =20 ------=_NextPart_000_0087_01C3299E.95400C00 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message
Visionaries,
 
I=20 understand now why Donovan was questioning my numbers for MSD's half-way = point.=20
 
If you=20 strictly look at the children who attend MSD (decreasing at ~50 = per=20 year), then that half-way point occurs ~2013. However, I was including = the=20 census data with the total number of school-aged children in Moscow. = Because=20 those numbers are increasing significantly (20% per year) and MSD's are=20 decreasing significantly, the half-way point actually occurs around=20 2008/2009.
 
Now,=20 from the District's perspective, they discount the children who they are = not=20 being paid for. However, when we look at the absolute numbers, we must = include=20 those who are not attending the government schools in town.=20
 
My=20 apologies for confusing him and anyone else with this distinction.=20
 
Best,
Dale Courtney
----------
Numquam bella piis, numquam certamina=20 desunt.
 
------=_NextPart_000_0087_01C3299E.95400C00-- From carlwestberg846@hotmail.com Tue Jun 3 15:45:36 2003 From: carlwestberg846@hotmail.com (Carl Westberg) Date: Tue, 03 Jun 2003 07:45:36 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] 2 questions Message-ID: A couple of questions, one that ties in with the public-private school debate and one unrelated non-sequitor. How has the experiment in Philadelphia been working out with the school system under the operation of a private company? Non-sequitor: Does anyone know what's up with University Pointe on sixth street? What businesses are going to be in there and when they're going to start opening? Carl Westberg Jr. _________________________________________________________________ STOP MORE SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From predator75@moscow.com Tue Jun 3 16:03:49 2003 From: predator75@moscow.com (Dan Carscallen) Date: Tue, 3 Jun 2003 08:03:49 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] 2 questions References: Message-ID: <008101c329e1$56fa98f0$831da13f@MOSCOW1> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_007E_01C329A6.AA780C50 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Carl asked: --->Does anyone know what's up with University Pointe on sixth street? Well, I think it's pretty well established that Latah County Grain = Growers will be in there, and the only other biz I've heard of is = Quizno's Subs. Other than that, someone more edumacated on the subject = than me will have to answer DC ------=_NextPart_000_007E_01C329A6.AA780C50 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Carl asked:
--->Does anyone know what's up with University = Pointe on=20 sixth street?
 
 
 
Well, I think=20 it's pretty well established that Latah County Grain Growers will be in = there,=20 and the only other biz I've heard of is Quizno's = Subs.  Other=20 than that, someone more edumacated on the subject than me will have to=20 answer
 
DC
------=_NextPart_000_007E_01C329A6.AA780C50-- From dougl457@hotmail.com Tue Jun 3 16:15:25 2003 From: dougl457@hotmail.com (Douglas Amos) Date: Tue, 03 Jun 2003 10:15:25 -0500 Subject: [Vision2020] (no subject) Message-ID: >From : "Carl Westberg" To : vision2020@moscow.com Subject : [Vision2020] 2 questions Date : Tue, 03 Jun 2003 07:45:36 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Originating-IP: [129.101.79.126] X-Originating-Email: [carlwestberg846@hotmail.com] Received: from mc6-f32.law1.hotmail.com ([65.54.252.168]) by mc6-s15.law1.hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.5600); Tue, 3 Jun 2003 07:46:46 -0700 Received: from whale2.fsr.net ([207.141.26.23]) by mc6-f32.law1.hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.5600); Tue, 3 Jun 2003 07:46:46 -0700 Received: from whale2.fsr.net (localhost [127.0.0.1])by whale2.fsr.net (8.12.3/8.12.3) with ESMTP id h53Ek3QU015634;Tue, 3 Jun 2003 07:46:03 -0700 (PDT)(envelope-from vision2020-admin@moscow.com) Received: from psmtp.com (exprod5mx11.postini.com [12.158.34.151])by whale2.fsr.net (8.12.3/8.12.3) with SMTP id h53EjdQU014905for ; Tue, 3 Jun 2003 07:45:39 -0700 (PDT)(envelope-from carlwestberg846@hotmail.com) Received: from source ([207.141.24.20]) by exprod5mx11.postini.com ([12.158.34.245]) with SMTP;Tue, 03 Jun 2003 10:45:36 EDT Received: from hotmail.com (law10-f9.law10.hotmail.com [64.4.15.9])by fsr.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h53EjcQ75098for ; Tue, 3 Jun 2003 07:45:38 -0700 (PDT)(envelope-from carlwestberg846@hotmail.com) Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Tue, 3 Jun 2003 07:45:36 -0700 Received: from 129.101.79.126 by lw10fd.law10.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Tue, 03 Jun 2003 14:45:36 GMT X-Message-Info: x4V9WGjv0S+tgg6iEqkLA/QtAFRFC4s1 Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 03 Jun 2003 14:45:36.0478 (UTC) FILETIME=[CB2E17E0:01C329DE] Sender: vision2020-admin@moscow.com Errors-To: vision2020-admin@moscow.com X-BeenThere: vision2020@moscow.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.10 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Moscow/Latah county community discussion list List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: Return-Path: vision2020-admin@moscow.com Reply Reply All Forward Put in Folder...InboxSent MessagesDraftsTrash CanapartmentgranthaldanejobsK DMTCSpersonal Printer Friendly Version A couple of questions, one that ties in with the public-private school debate and one unrelated non-sequitor. How has the experiment in Philadelphia been working out with the school system under the operation of a private company? Non-sequitor: Does anyone know what's up with University Pointe on sixth street? What businesses are going to be in there and when they're going to start opening? Carl Westberg Jr. _________________________________________________________________ STOP MORE SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail _____________________________________________________ List services made available by First Step Internet, serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994. http://www.fsr.net mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ TAKE ME OFF YOUR LIST!!!!! I HAVE ASKED BEFORE WHAT DO I NEED TO DO I DON"T GIVE A FLYING FRIG WHAT TRIVAL TRASH IS BEING DISCUSSED All we are saying, is give peace a chance. doug _________________________________________________________________ Tired of spam? Get advanced junk mail protection with MSN 8. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From jack@wsu.edu Tue Jun 3 16:33:07 2003 From: jack@wsu.edu (Van Deventer, Jack) Date: Tue, 3 Jun 2003 08:33:07 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] The myth of smaller class sizes Message-ID: <98444CB31FE6BD4F969495E78B94DDB3287A51@mail.cbe.wsu.edu> Gee, Tom, did you even read what Mr. Courtney wrote? Jack ____________________ Jack Van Deventer jack@wsu.edu -----Original Message----- From: Tom Hansen [mailto:thansen@moscow.com] Sent: Tuesday, June 03, 2003 5:56 AM To: Dale Courtney; vision2020@moscow.com Subject: RE: [Vision2020] The myth of smaller class sizes Mr. Courtney - Based on your own posting (specifically the graph near the end), I conclude that the analysis of smaller class size and educational quality improvement here in the United States provides "inconclusive results". This clearly reflects that there is insufficient evidence (within the study) to tip the scales in either direction. Bottomline: The study was meaningless. Tom Hansen _____________________________________________________ List services made available by First Step Internet, serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994. http://www.fsr.net mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ From PotterG@scsc.k12.in.us Tue Jun 3 16:36:24 2003 From: PotterG@scsc.k12.in.us (George Potter) Date: Tue, 03 Jun 2003 10:36:24 -0500 Subject: [Vision2020] Myth of smaller class sizes Message-ID: Dale, There are other issues here besides just class sizes. Here are a few of them: 1. In the US, the general idea that drives public education is that all children can achieve at high standards. In many other countries, students who struggle for any reason are tracked out of the academic arena and are put into other areas, whether they be technical, vocational, or internship/apprenticeship job training. If you have a class of high-achievers, yes you can teach with 30, 40, or 50 to 1 student/teacher ratios and have students succeed. 2. IEPs. In a typical class of 25 students, you may have anywhere from 4 to 10 students with individual education plans that are different than the "average" student, that the teacher must accommodate. (Actually, the school must accommodate, and thereby forces the teacher to accommodate). These students may have learning disabilities, emotional handicaps, behavioral problems, and may just be violent. (My favorite handicap--oppositional defiant disorder--they defy authority. How do you think they respond in a classroom with a teacher that is trying to maintain order?) All of these students must be accommodated by the public school. If they are suspended or expelled, the school must provide home tutoring at school's expense. If they are held out of a mainstream classroom, you now have one teacher with maybe 3-4 students. This affects your overall student teacher ratios. Again, this does not occur in other countries to the extent it does in the US. Attitudes about learning. A large group of parents and children in the US (in some places even a majority) feel that all learning should be done by students between 8:30 and 3:15. Students in other countries have much higher homework requirements than in the US. 2nd attitude about learning: Learning should be "fun." This has led to teachers trying to "entertain" their students, and students expecting to be entertained. The rewards of education and learning in the US have become far too extrinsic--we need to somehow get people to understand and focus on the intrinsic rewards of learning. In conclusion, you are right that some countries educate better with higher student/teacher ratios. However, they do not operate under a system anything like the United States', and therefore your arguments, I think, lose some strength due to these systemic differences. George Potter From sunilramalingam@hotmail.com Tue Jun 3 17:14:18 2003 From: sunilramalingam@hotmail.com (Sunil Ramalingam) Date: Tue, 03 Jun 2003 09:14:18 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] (no subject) Message-ID:

Douglas Amos wrote,

"TAKE ME OFF YOUR LIST!!!!! I HAVE ASKED BEFORE WHAT DO I NEED TO DO I DON"T GIVE A FLYING FRIG WHAT TRIVAL TRASH IS BEING DISCUSSED," ending his post naturally enough with a timely plea for peace.

Wow.  After going through some of the posts I've already read today, I'm amazed that Carl's post led to this response.  It's some of the other posts that led me to rinse my eyes in hot sauce, not Carl's, even if he is a known Anti-Squirrelite.

Sunil


STOP MORE SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* From tomh@fna4.fsn.uidaho.edu Tue Jun 3 18:05:32 2003 From: tomh@fna4.fsn.uidaho.edu (Thomas Hansen) Date: Tue, 3 Jun 2003 10:05:32 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] The myth of smaller class sizes Message-ID: <165F697BE456F14EA4529F6B7BB6D4FC1F6F90@daffy.dfm.uidaho.edu> Not extensively. I find his postings to be long and tedious. Since he is hyped on graphs and graphics, I lightly skimmed over the long and tedious text and carefully reviewed the graph at the end of his posting. I based my opinion on the graph that Mr. Courtney was so gracious to provide. Thanks again, Mr. Courtney, Tom Hansen -----Original Message----- From: Van Deventer, Jack [mailto:jack@wsu.edu] Sent: Tuesday, June 03, 2003 8:33 AM To: vision2020@moscow.com Cc: thansen@moscow.com Subject: RE: [Vision2020] The myth of smaller class sizes Gee, Tom, did you even read what Mr. Courtney wrote? Jack ____________________ Jack Van Deventer jack@wsu.edu -----Original Message----- From: Tom Hansen [mailto:thansen@moscow.com] Sent: Tuesday, June 03, 2003 5:56 AM To: Dale Courtney; vision2020@moscow.com Subject: RE: [Vision2020] The myth of smaller class sizes Mr. Courtney - Based on your own posting (specifically the graph near the end), I conclude that the analysis of smaller class size and educational quality improvement here in the United States provides "inconclusive results". This clearly reflects that there is insufficient evidence (within the study) to tip the scales in either direction. Bottomline: The study was meaningless. Tom Hansen _____________________________________________________ List services made available by First Step Internet, serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994. http://www.fsr.net mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ _____________________________________________________ List services made available by First Step Internet, serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994. http://www.fsr.net mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ From london@moscow.com Tue Jun 3 20:57:29 2003 From: london@moscow.com (Bill London) Date: Tue, 03 Jun 2003 12:57:29 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] CORRECTION Message-ID: <3EDCFDA9.4B0BEFA1@moscow.com> Moscow Civic Association announcement sent yesterday contains error of meeting time. Correct time is 7:30pm See corrected copy below. Thanks BL --------------------- Moscow Civic Association Meeting Focuses on Community Development The public is invited to the Moscow Civic Association meeting on Monday, June 9, at 7:30pm in the 1912 Building in Moscow. The meeting will focus on community development in Moscow. The meeting will include a computerized “virtual tour” of Moscow highlighting both the community and its recent growth. Crysta Falcon, MCA board member and University of Idaho graduate student in urban design, will lead the virtual tour. The presentation will provide an overview of Moscow and the relevance of Smart Growth principles to changes that impact the community. Discussion of the implications of that presentation will be encouraged, in keeping with the MCA mission of facilitating public participation in vital and current issues. For more information, or to join the organization, visit the MCA webpage at http: www.moscowcivicasso.org/. From ted_moffett@hotmail.com Tue Jun 3 21:10:00 2003 From: ted_moffett@hotmail.com (Ted Moffett) Date: Tue, 03 Jun 2003 20:10:00 +0000 Subject: [Vision2020] Re: Religious Diversity Education Message-ID: Luke, et. al. I really doubt that the words "under God" will be removed by law from the pledge of allegiance soon. Why do you say this? What evidence do you have? President Bush is a born again Christian who is appointing conservative judges to the federal courts who would be unlikely to support removing "under God" from the pledge. And the US Senate voted unanimously to support the words "under God" in the pledge when the controversy over the pledge recently came up. The evidence is against your claim here. But the point is, how can you say the schools deny God's existence with millions of students all over the US saying this pledge with the words "under God." Sounds like acknowledging God's existence to me. You have an extreme interpretation of what it means to believe in God that forces you to take extreme positions. Like your position on biology and evolution. Science does not deny the possibility of the soul and an afterlife. This is a matter of religious faith. You can claim that science considers the soul and afterlife improbable, but these issues are, like I said, a matter of religious faith. Many very brilliant scientists who believe in evolution are also Christians. They have a different view of these issues that allows them to accept the science of evolution and believe in Christ. You take extreme all or nothing positions that force you to deny other possibilities. Again I state, there are many views of God and science that are believed by Christians and people of other faiths. For example, consider that some spiritual faiths think that animals have souls, so the rather negative view of animals it seems you express when you talk about about scientific biology looking at homo sapiens as animals, is not the way all people look at this subject. I do not have any blinders on. I am open to many interpretations of the world around me on issues of science, spirituality and God etc. Thanks for the exchange. I hope your faith serves you well! I just wish you would with a bit more humility consider that other faiths might have value and truth that you are not acknowledging. The world does not have to be an all or nothing proposition on issues of spirituality and faith. Ted >From: "Luke" >To: "Ted Moffett" , vision2020-request@moscow.com >Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Religious Diversity Education >Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2003 20:49:47 -0700 > >Hello, Ted: > > > Students in the public schools recite a pledge NOW that states they are >"one > > nation under God" right in the pledge of allegiance! This reference to >God > > was challenged in the courts, but this challenge so far has failed. > >Just watch and wait - soon it will go through. > > > > I know that in the subjects studied in public schools now, in >literature, > > history and sociology or social studies classes, "God" is mentioned and > > discussed. It would be impossible to teach literature, history and > > sociology with mentioning the subject of God and religion. How could >you > > teach history without mentioning the Pope and Catholic church? > >Interestingly enough, about three or four years ago in the Spokane public >school system a debate was raging over the question of actually teaching >history, and people were saying why bother? I don't know who won. > > > How many > > poems and novels mention God? Numerous. Literature courses have >passages > > in books that mention God. > >It doesn't matter, because "science has shown" that we are all animals >evolving in nature with no souls, no afterlife, and therefore logically no >God. That's why there are many student suicides, not because they have a >depression problem, not because they are mistreated, but because the basic >science taught today is exactly that. I'm an animal, you're an animal, why >not act like it? What's the point of living then? And what's the point of >teaching history? > > > > > And again I state, it is not taught in the public schools, now or at any > > time, that there is no God, unless by some teacher pushing their own >agenda > > against the rules! > >I advise you to sit in on the 10th grade biology class in Moscow High, and >Pullman High, when they start going into microbiology, DNA, and genes. >That's where Darwinists really push the man-as-animal and the origins >teaching. I just looked at a public school biology textbook for a while, >and >I am not making this stuff up. > > > > You are suggesting that the public schools have a policy of teaching > > Atheism, and that is just plain not true! > >But it is. You're under a false impression, Ted, and you need to have the >blinders pulled from your eyes. Check out the materials for Idaho Public >School Biology, and you will not honestly be able to say that they don't >push Atheism. > >Luke Nieuwsma > > _________________________________________________________________ MSN 8 helps eliminate e-mail viruses. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus From dale@courtneys.us Tue Jun 3 21:35:20 2003 From: dale@courtneys.us (Dale Courtney) Date: Tue, 3 Jun 2003 13:35:20 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] Myth of smaller class sizes In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <00ce01c32a0f$a6942ab0$ca01a8c0@home> George, I *really* appreciate your thoughtful reply to my post. It's nice to have a fresh perspective from Indiana coming in. Let's chat about some of what you wrote! > 1. In the US, the general idea that drives public education > is that all children can achieve at high standards. Do you really think that *all* children can *achieve* *high* *academic* standards? That would be like saying that everyone can make the varsity football team. In order to reach this goal, either every child must be the same (nope!), or the bar must be lowered so that everyone can jump as high (yup!). IMO, that's what we've done in the government schools today -- lowered the bar so that everyone is equal. More on that later... > 2. IEPs. In a typical class of 25 students, you may have > anywhere from 4 to 10 students with individual education > plans that are different than the "average" student, that the > teacher must accommodate. (Actually, the school must > accommodate, and thereby forces the teacher to accommodate). > These students may have learning disabilities, emotional > handicaps, behavioral problems, and may just be violent. (My > favorite handicap--oppositional defiant disorder--they defy > authority. How do you think they respond in a classroom with > a teacher that is trying to maintain order?) All of these > students must be accommodated by the public school. If they > are suspended or expelled, the school must provide home > tutoring at school's expense. If they are held out of a > mainstream classroom, you now have one teacher with maybe > 3-4 students. This affects your overall student teacher > ratios. Again, this does not occur in other countries to the > extent it does in the US. Now we are getting to the crux of the matter! This will involve a long conversation concerning the "mainstreaming" of such students (using the educators' lingo); the responsibilities of the parents verse the State; and our "obligation" to educate even the incorrigibles (to those high academic standards). We should discuss this area at length. I don't have the time to do it now. Let's talk about this later in the week, OK? > In conclusion, you are right that some countries educate > better with higher student/teacher ratios. However, they do > not operate under a system anything like the United States', > and therefore your arguments, I think, lose some strength due > to these systemic differences. Now, the question is -- who is better off? The other countries I mentioned (Korea; Hong Kong; Japan; Singapore) educate better. They can do it more cheaply. And they can load their teachers with up to 50 children in a classroom and still score 20% better than we do on Math and Science tests. When students from these countries come to the USA, they walk all over our students in Math, Engineering, and Sciences. Why? Because we have painted ourselves into the corner. We have brought these "solutions" onto ourselves; and now we pay the piper. Again, more on this later in the week. IMO, we're finally getting to the crux of the matter. Best, Dale Courtney Moscow, Idaho From ted_moffett@hotmail.com Tue Jun 3 21:39:03 2003 From: ted_moffett@hotmail.com (Ted Moffett) Date: Tue, 03 Jun 2003 20:39:03 +0000 Subject: [Vision2020] Internet Etiquette on Public Archived List Serves Message-ID: Bruce et. al. No stone knives and bearskins are advocated. Tom Hansen's suggestion that Dale get his own storage where he can make available large files via a link on vision2020 seems reasonable to me. One of Dale's graphs posted on vision2020 was a whopping 1.5 megs, though Dale said this was a mistake. The day this graph was sent it shut my e-mail down! Hotmail has only 2 megs of available space. Can you imagine what would happen to many people's e-mail inbox if numerous vision2020 participants posted files this large? You seem to disregard the fact this is a public archived list serve. The download time is not the issue. Not everyone using vision2020 has huge e-mail inbox storage capacity, this is the point. And vision2020 posts are also archived, so somewhere there is storage for the archived vision2020 list. Dale's recent post in question that I suggested did not need to be as large as it was, could easily have been sent as a much smaller plain text e-mail and still provided Dale with the means to make all the wonderful points he made. It is common internet etiquette to keep public archived postings on usenet etc. to the smallest size needed to communicate what is required. I easily could post much "fancier" e-mails, but I deliberately chose the plain text format to reduce e-mail size. If I had some very good reason to use a more HTML intensive e-mail format I might. Dale is of course free to do whatever he wishes with the absence of any monitor for vision2020. Ted >From: "Bruce and Jean Livingston" >To: >Subject: Re: [Vision2020] First Step Tech Examines Dale's 38 K Post >Date: Tue, 3 Jun 2003 00:43:58 -0700 > >I enjoyed reading Mr. Courtney's graphs, which were not especially large >files -- as far as downloading them by my dial-up telephone link to >Turbonet >was concerned -- and I would recommend that he and others continue using >them. His message downloaded far quicker than a picture -- which is a much >larger drain/bottleneck in terms of bandwidth -- and I think the graphics >are better than a word description. > >How much slower than my 56 k telephone modem can the mechanism for >downloading be in the computers of you complainers? A primitive, early to >mid '90s modem at 28k would only be half as slow as mine. > >Mr. Courtney and I don't always agree, but he expresses himself clearly and >thoughtfully, and in my opinion, his messages, even with judiciously chosen >graphics, are appropriate for this list. Frankly, I'd rather read his >presentations, even if I disagree with them, than spend as much time as I >do >hitting the delete button to avoid reading some of the repetitive posters >who so love to see themselves in print. > >I recommend that we not revert to stone knives and bearskins. > >Bruce Livingston > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Dale Courtney" >To: >Sent: Monday, June 02, 2003 6:55 PM >Subject: RE: [Vision2020] First Step Tech Examines Dale's 38 K Post > > >| Sigh, >| >| If it is the desire of the list that we shift to text-based Email >(something >| that hasn't been the standard since RTF and HTML Email were available 8 >| years ago), I will comply. But we'll be the only list in the world that >| reverts back 5+ generations in Internet technology. :( >| >| However, there are things that can only be conveyed to many people via >| graphs and colors. >| >| Perhaps my graphs were too effective? >| >| Best, >| Dale >| >| >| _____________________________________________________ >| List services made available by First Step Internet, >| serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994. >| http://www.fsr.net >| mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com >| ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ >| > > >_____________________________________________________ > List services made available by First Step Internet, > serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994. > http://www.fsr.net > mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com >ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ _________________________________________________________________ MSN 8 helps eliminate e-mail viruses. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus From dale@courtneys.us Tue Jun 3 22:02:55 2003 From: dale@courtneys.us (Dale Courtney) Date: Tue, 3 Jun 2003 14:02:55 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] Internet Etiquette on Public Archived List Serves In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <00d001c32a13$8127a4b0$ca01a8c0@home> > No stone knives and bearskins are advocated. > > Tom Hansen's suggestion that Dale get his own storage where > he can make > available large files via a link on vision2020 seems > reasonable to me. That had been done from day #1 when I was on the list. > One > of Dale's graphs posted on vision2020 was a whopping 1.5 > megs, though Dale > said this was a mistake. There's a line from the Princess Bride: "Thank you so much for brining that up. Why don't you give me a nice paper cut and pour lemon juice in it while you're at it. That was an accident, a one-time mistake. I apologize again. All my graphs are physically located on my webserver and are only linked and displayed from the recipient's machine. They are not downloaded onto your machines at all. If you would look back at my posts, you will see that they are across the board smaller than nearly everyone else's posts. I go out of my way to ensure that my posts are small. I really don't want to get into a contest about this, but my posts averaged a whopping 12.7kb last month; yours averaged 13.4 kb. This is really a ridiculous conversation. Hope this answers your questions. Personally, I'm not interested in going back to pre-1996 Email format. Best, Dale From carlwestberg846@hotmail.com Tue Jun 3 22:35:19 2003 From: carlwestberg846@hotmail.com (Carl Westberg) Date: Tue, 03 Jun 2003 14:35:19 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] (no subject) Message-ID: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_5c2b_524a_786b Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed While I appreciate Sunil coming to my defense, I must object to being labeled an Anti-Squirrelite. I've not an anti-squirrel bone in my body. However, I did hear today that a squirrel blew up a transformer in Moscow on Sunday, causing a loud exploding noise and resultant power outage. Accident, or an act of, as Dubya would say, tear? Carl Westberg Jr. >From: "Sunil Ramalingam" >To: dougl457@hotmail.com, Vision2020@moscow.com >Subject: Re: [Vision2020] (no subject) >Date: Tue, 03 Jun 2003 09:14:18 -0700 > _________________________________________________________________ Tired of spam? Get advanced junk mail protection with MSN 8. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail ------=_NextPart_000_5c2b_524a_786b Content-Type: message/rfc822 X-Message-Info: x4V9WGjv0S+tgg6iEqkLA/QtAFRFC4s1 Received: from mc7-f10.law1.hotmail.com ([65.54.253.17]) by mc7-s12.law1.hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.5600); Tue, 3 Jun 2003 09:16:53 -0700 Received: from whale2.fsr.net ([207.141.26.23]) by mc7-f10.law1.hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.5600); Tue, 3 Jun 2003 09:15:50 -0700 Received: from whale2.fsr.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by whale2.fsr.net (8.12.3/8.12.3) with ESMTP id h53GF3QU070396; Tue, 3 Jun 2003 09:15:03 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from vision2020-admin@moscow.com) Received: from psmtp.com (exprod5mx78.postini.com [12.158.34.208]) by whale2.fsr.net (8.12.3/8.12.3) with SMTP id h53GEMQU069133 for ; Tue, 3 Jun 2003 09:14:22 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from sunilramalingam@hotmail.com) Received: from source ([207.141.24.20]) by exprod5mx78.postini.com ([12.158.34.245]) with SMTP; Tue, 03 Jun 2003 11:14:19 CDT Received: from hotmail.com (law10-f41.law10.hotmail.com [64.4.15.41]) by fsr.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h53GELQ35072 for ; Tue, 3 Jun 2003 09:14:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from sunilramalingam@hotmail.com) Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Tue, 3 Jun 2003 09:14:18 -0700 Received: from 24.117.126.226 by lw10fd.law10.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Tue, 03 Jun 2003 16:14:18 GMT X-Originating-IP: [24.117.126.226] X-Originating-Email: [sunilramalingam@hotmail.com] From: "Sunil Ramalingam" To: dougl457@hotmail.com, Vision2020@moscow.com Subject: Re: [Vision2020] (no subject) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 03 Jun 2003 16:14:18.0955 (UTC) FILETIME=[2F9FA1B0:01C329EB] Sender: vision2020-admin@moscow.com Errors-To: vision2020-admin@moscow.com X-BeenThere: vision2020@moscow.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.10 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Moscow/Latah county community discussion list List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Tue, 03 Jun 2003 09:14:18 -0700 Return-Path: vision2020-admin@moscow.com

Douglas Amos wrote,

"TAKE ME OFF YOUR LIST!!!!! I HAVE ASKED BEFORE WHAT DO I NEED TO DO I DON"T GIVE A FLYING FRIG WHAT TRIVAL TRASH IS BEING DISCUSSED," ending his post naturally enough with a timely plea for peace.

Wow.  After going through some of the posts I've already read today, I'm amazed that Carl's post led to this response.  It's some of the other posts that led me to rinse my eyes in hot sauce, not Carl's, even if he is a known Anti-Squirrelite.

Sunil


STOP MORE SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* _____________________________________________________ List services made available by First Step Internet, serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994. http://www.fsr.net mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ ------=_NextPart_000_5c2b_524a_786b-- From thansen@moscow.com Tue Jun 3 23:24:07 2003 From: thansen@moscow.com (thansen@moscow.com) Date: Tue, 3 Jun 2003 22:24:07 GMT Subject: [Vision2020] (no subject) Message-ID: <200306032149.h53Ln4QU055951@whale2.fsr.net> Gentlemen - We have put it off too long. It has become time to initiate STL's (Squirrel Threat Levels). I, for one, am all in favor of the multi-tiered threat levels much like the one currently used by Homeland Security. I am just as certain that the perpertrating squirrel that committed such a criminal act as that described below is an integral part of a squirrel sleeper cell that has maintained residence here in Moscow since the early seventies. Act now before it is too late. Tom Hansen > While I appreciate Sunil coming to my defense, I must object to being > labeled an Anti-Squirrelite. I've not an anti-squirrel bone in my body. > However, I did hear today that a squirrel blew up a transformer in Moscow on > Sunday, causing a loud exploding noise and resultant power outage. > Accident, or an act of, as Dubya would say, tear? > > > > Carl Westberg Jr. > > > >From: "Sunil Ramalingam" > >To: dougl457@hotmail.com, Vision2020@moscow.com > >Subject: Re: [Vision2020] (no subject) > >Date: Tue, 03 Jun 2003 09:14:18 -0700 > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > Tired of spam? Get advanced junk mail protection with MSN 8. > http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail > --------------------------------------------- This message was sent by First Step Internet. http://www.fsr.net/ From mushroom@moscow.com Tue Jun 3 23:05:10 2003 From: mushroom@moscow.com (Mushroom) Date: Tue, 03 Jun 2003 15:05:10 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] (no subject) References: <200306032149.h53Ln4QU055951@whale2.fsr.net> Message-ID: <3EDD1B96.2087AA40@moscow.com> thansen@moscow.com wrote: > I am just as certain that the perpertrating squirrel that committed such a > criminal act as that described below is an integral part of a squirrel sleeper > cell that has maintained residence here in Moscow since the early seventies. Watch for freshly-shaved squirrels that look nervous while waiting in line at the bird feeder. Don Coombs From bjswan@moscow.com Tue Jun 3 23:09:38 2003 From: bjswan@moscow.com (B. J. Swanson) Date: Tue, 3 Jun 2003 15:09:38 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] Internet Etiquette on Public Archived List Serves In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Visionaries, Think of all the storage space saved and exasperation lessened if everyone would stick to the one message a day suggestion. B. J. Swanson ----------------------------- -----Original Message----- From: vision2020-admin@moscow.com [mailto:vision2020-admin@moscow.com]On Behalf Of Ted Moffett Sent: Tuesday, June 03, 2003 1:39 PM To: jeanlivingston@turbonet.com Cc: vision2020@moscow.com Subject: [Vision2020] Internet Etiquette on Public Archived List Serves Bruce et. al. No stone knives and bearskins are advocated. Tom Hansen's suggestion that Dale get his own storage where he can make available large files via a link........ From sdredge@yahoo.com Tue Jun 3 23:10:27 2003 From: sdredge@yahoo.com (Scott Dredge) Date: Tue, 3 Jun 2003 15:10:27 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Vision2020] Anti-Squirrelite In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030603221027.51142.qmail@web10502.mail.yahoo.com> I used to think squirrels were cute. Now I just think they're rats with bushy tails. I say hit them with 'nucular' weapons! --- Carl Westberg wrote: > While I appreciate Sunil coming to my defense, I > must object to being > labeled an Anti-Squirrelite. I've not an > anti-squirrel bone in my body. > However, I did hear today that a squirrel blew up a > transformer in Moscow on > Sunday, causing a loud exploding noise and resultant > power outage. > Accident, or an act of, as Dubya would say, tear? > > > Carl Westberg Jr. > __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Calendar - Free online calendar with sync to Outlook(TM). http://calendar.yahoo.com From ted_moffett@hotmail.com Tue Jun 3 23:28:10 2003 From: ted_moffett@hotmail.com (Ted Moffett) Date: Tue, 03 Jun 2003 22:28:10 +0000 Subject: [Vision2020] Internet Etiquette on Public Archived List Serves Message-ID: Dale et. al. I'm not sure how this happened, but my vision2020 post you referenced yesterday, and claimed was 34 K, was only 22 K in my Hotmail inbox. Perhaps there is some error in how you are figuring e-mail size? If my posts averaged 13.4 K, which I question, this was not due to my use of HTML intensive e-mail. The 38 K post I suggested you could have made smaller was HTML intensive in a manner that could have been avoided and still communicated your well thought out points. Consider that my reply that included all the text of your post, with my text added, was only 22 K. This was my point, as I stated. I only brought up the 1.5 meg graph that shut down my e-mail account to illustrate to Bruce L. why it is wise when possible to keep messages sent to a public internet list serve as small as will allow the appropriate communication. If Bruce had not appeared puzzled as to why it is wise to keep public list serve messages as small a size as is practical, I would not have brought this up. I am sorry. Of course you are free to do what you wish on this un-moderated list serve, including ignore my suggestions, if you think they are ground less, rather than playing a game of one one-upmanship by researching and comparing average post size on vision2020. If you did not want to get into a contest, as you stated, you would have not done this comparison of post size! This is like the man who says I don't want to fight, then launches a sucker punch! I concede at once without even checking. Your vision2020 posts are smaller than mine! Unless someone else continues this discussion, I will consider it closed. I have made the point I wished to make. This is my third vision2020 post today, and following the suggestions of some on vision2020, I have exceeded my post allotment for the day. I guess I must apologize again! Ted >From: "Dale Courtney" >To: >Subject: RE: [Vision2020] Internet Etiquette on Public Archived List Serves >Date: Tue, 3 Jun 2003 14:02:55 -0700 > > > No stone knives and bearskins are advocated. > > > > Tom Hansen's suggestion that Dale get his own storage where > > he can make > > available large files via a link on vision2020 seems > > reasonable to me. > >That had been done from day #1 when I was on the list. > > > One > > of Dale's graphs posted on vision2020 was a whopping 1.5 > > megs, though Dale > > said this was a mistake. > >There's a line from the Princess Bride: "Thank you so much for brining that >up. Why don't you give me a nice paper cut and pour lemon juice in it while >you're at it. > >That was an accident, a one-time mistake. I apologize again. > >All my graphs are physically located on my webserver and are only linked >and >displayed from the recipient's machine. They are not downloaded onto your >machines at all. > >If you would look back at my posts, you will see that they are across the >board smaller than nearly everyone else's posts. I go out of my way to >ensure that my posts are small. > >I really don't want to get into a contest about this, but my posts averaged >a whopping 12.7kb last month; yours averaged 13.4 kb. This is really a >ridiculous conversation. > >Hope this answers your questions. Personally, I'm not interested in going >back to pre-1996 Email format. > >Best, >Dale > > >_____________________________________________________ > List services made available by First Step Internet, > serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994. > http://www.fsr.net > mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com >ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ _________________________________________________________________ STOP MORE SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From london@moscow.com Tue Jun 3 23:50:16 2003 From: london@moscow.com (Bill London) Date: Tue, 03 Jun 2003 15:50:16 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] (no subject) References: <200306032149.h53Ln4QU055951@whale2.fsr.net> <3EDD1B96.2087AA40@moscow.com> Message-ID: <3EDD2628.A709C88@moscow.com> forecast for lively V2020 summer: ponderous theological thunderstorms with intermittent squirrel humor. BL Mushroom wrote: > thansen@moscow.com wrote: > > I am just as certain that the perpertrating squirrel that committed such a > > criminal act as that described below is an integral part of a squirrel sleeper > > cell that has maintained residence here in Moscow since the early seventies. > > Watch for freshly-shaved squirrels that look nervous while > waiting in line at the bird feeder. > > Don Coombs > > _____________________________________________________ > List services made available by First Step Internet, > serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994. > http://www.fsr.net > mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com > ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ From dgray@uidaho.edu Tue Jun 3 23:42:30 2003 From: dgray@uidaho.edu (Debbie Gray) Date: Tue, 03 Jun 2003 15:42:30 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Vision2020] (no subject) In-Reply-To: <3EDD1B96.2087AA40@moscow.com> References: <200306032149.h53Ln4QU055951@whale2.fsr.net> <3EDD1B96.2087AA40@moscow.com> Message-ID: I am very troubled by the left wing liberal free love hippy squirrels in my own back yard. Yesterday, my 5 yr old son and I were watching two small squirrels chase each other around. Suddenly, a scream rang out. No, anyway, suddenly they started participating in the Squirrel Dance of Love. I kept waiting for them to smoke a jag after they were finished "wrestling" (as my son called it) but they merely scampered around hugging trees like some WTO protester... Thanks, but please keep this public display of procreation out of my backyard and in the backseat of a Ford Fairlane where it belongs. Debbie Gray > thansen@moscow.com wrote: > > I am just as certain that the perpertrating squirrel that committed such a > > criminal act as that described below is an integral part of a squirrel sleeper > > cell that has maintained residence here in Moscow since the early seventies. %^%^%^%^%^%^%^%^%^%^%^%^%^%^%^%^%^%^%^%^%^%^%^%^%^%^%^%^%^%^%^%^%^%^%^% Debbie Gray dgray@uidaho.edu http://www.uidaho.edu/~dgray/ We must be willing to get rid of the life we've planned, so as to have the life that is waiting for us." --Joseph Campbell %^%^%^%^%^%^%^%^%^%^%^%^%^%^%^%^%^%^%^%^%^%^%^%^%^%^%^%^%^%^%^%^%^%^%^% From sunilramalingam@hotmail.com Wed Jun 4 00:05:09 2003 From: sunilramalingam@hotmail.com (Sunil Ramalingam) Date: Tue, 03 Jun 2003 16:05:09 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] Myth of smaller class sizes Message-ID:

I really try not to participate in this particular discussion except to say "public schools" when Dale uses the term "government school," but I wanted to add one little piece of information.

Dale talks about how schools in Singapore produce excellent results in science education in large classes.  Since I lived in Malaysia for many years, I actually know something about the school systems there; I will wager that the same holds true for Hong Kong, and possibly Japan and Korea, but I don't want to risk the formula money on those two.

Malaysia and Singapore both use the English model, with students taking an exam at the end of Form 3, or Ninth Grade.  [there may be some other streaming earlier, but I'm not sure.] Those who do well in math and the science subjects go into the Science Stream and the others go into the Arts stream.  The Science stream students typically will take Math, calculus, Chemistry, Physics, Biology, English and a second language.  In the Arts stream students will take English, maybe English Lit, a comprehensive science course (Chemistry, Physics, Biology, but a lower level than the students in the science stream), history, and geography.  At the end of Form 5 (11th grade) they all take a major exam, the results of which will determine if they get to go for two years of Form 6 and yet another exam, but with fewer subjects this time.

Most middle class families also send their kids to private tuition courses, after school.  Do they do this because the schools are deficient, or because they want to make sure their kids have the best chance to go on?  Some of each, I'm sure, probably more of the latter factor.  There are lots of these private places, and they are packed.  I know, I've been to them: I was the kid in the back with glasses staring at the blackboard and thinking, "I still don't get it."

I don't think we can simply say that schools in that part of the world do fine with large classes without considering the extra work students there are doing.  There's a lot of emphasis on the sciences in the science stream, and there's also one extra year of education before university.  I'll bet most of the Asian students here were in the science stream.

Having been through that system, having gone to public and private schools, I still think we're better off here.  Doors don't get shut on kids here the way they are in places where kids are streamed too early.

Just my two cents,

Sunil

p.s. "Public schools"

 


From cobaltkumquat@yahoo.com Wed Jun 4 00:50:16 2003 From: cobaltkumquat@yahoo.com (Marina Piatt) Date: Tue, 3 Jun 2003 16:50:16 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Vision2020] help for victims of local fire Message-ID: <20030603235016.15340.qmail@web41906.mail.yahoo.com> --0-1067494288-1054684216=:14757 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii As some of you may know, there was a fire Sunday morning at an old house on North Jefferson in Moscow. All the human occupants made it out OK, but between the flames, the smoke, and the water, the building is completely uninhabitable. The place had been converted into apartments, and a lot of us lived there because our landlord allowed pets. Now some of us are homeless, and we're pretty desperate. Affordable housing in Moscow can be really tough to find, and especially tough for pet owners. Three of us need a place to stay until August, probably one couple and one single, but all of us together could work too. The couple, Mike and Kim, have two dogs between them, Teddy, an seven-year-old golden retriever and Koby, a one-year-old mixed-breed. I have a four-year-old neutered male cat named Attila. If any of you know of any accommodations you think could work for us, please let us know. Emailing information to me at cobaltkumquat@yahoo.com would probably be best, because we're scattered around sleeping on friends' couches right now. Thanks for any info you can give us, and sorry to clutter up the list. Maybe if I were to tell the story of the HUGE squirrel I saw the other day. . . Marina Piatt --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. --0-1067494288-1054684216=:14757 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
 
     As some of you may know, there was a fire Sunday morning at an old house on North Jefferson in Moscow. All the human occupants made it out OK, but between the flames, the smoke, and the water, the building is completely uninhabitable. The place had been converted into apartments, and a lot of us lived there because our landlord allowed pets. Now some of us are homeless, and we're pretty desperate. Affordable housing in Moscow can be really tough to find, and especially tough for pet owners.
    Three of us need a place to stay until August, probably one couple and one single, but all of us together could work too. The couple, Mike and Kim, have two dogs between them, Teddy, an seven-year-old golden retriever and Koby, a one-year-old mixed-breed. I have a four-year-old neutered male cat named Attila.
     If any of you know of any accommodations you think could work for us, please let us know. Emailing information to me at cobaltkumquat@yahoo.com would probably be best, because we're scattered around sleeping on friends' couches right now. Thanks for any info you can give us, and sorry to clutter up the list.  Maybe if I were to tell the story of the HUGE squirrel I saw the other day. . .
 
Marina Piatt

Do you Yahoo!?
The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. --0-1067494288-1054684216=:14757-- From london@moscow.com Wed Jun 4 01:03:41 2003 From: london@moscow.com (Bill London) Date: Tue, 03 Jun 2003 17:03:41 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] free music this summer Message-ID: <3EDD375D.A2071A39@moscow.com> Free Music at Moscow Food Co-op Tuesdays On June 10, the Moscow Food Co-op will begin a summer outdoor music series called “Hot Off the Grill” every Tuesday with free live musical entertainment at the picnic area on the south side of the Co-op, facing the Post Office, on Fourth Street. The musicians will perform from 5pm to 7pm every Tuesday, weather permitting. The Co-op will also offer BBQ’ed meat and vegetarian meals for sale there. In addition, the Co-op will sponsor the Weekday Growers’ Market, also 5pm to 7pm Tuesdays, in the parking lot on the Third Street side of the store. The musicians scheduled to play during June and July include: June 10th The Longbottom Leaf Pickers (bluegrass) June 17th Tara Howe (blues-folk-soul) June 24th Lisa Simpson (modern folk) July 1st Garrett Clevenger (conscious folk) July 8th Stephen Bonnar (poetry and music) July 15th The Rage Trio (2 violins and a viola) July 22nd Loose Change Jazz Orchestra (jazz) July 29th Nancy Gardner (folk) More information is available from Kenna Eaton, Co-op general manager, at 882-8537. From jsullivan@moscow.com Tue Jun 3 18:23:14 2003 From: jsullivan@moscow.com (J.Sullivan) Date: Tue, 3 Jun 2003 10:23:14 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] Squirrel References: Message-ID: <003501c329f4$d16879f0$22f2f5c7@Jannies> Last Sunday there was such a loud noise our entire house shook, followed by several hours of no electricity. Little did I know, until reading on this list, the cause was our friendly neighborhood Squirrel. Several times a day, starting early in the morning, he would scamper along the tv cable wire, pausing at the junction between my home, and Steve McClure's. There he would do a sure footed dance and jig, effectively tormenting Steve's Dog, Isha, and my dog, Dusty. (Remember Dusty, the runaway, donut hole nabbing dog from Safeway?) The two dogs would dance on hind legs, yipping and yowling, all the while tails wagging as fast as Squirrel's tail was jerking, he chirping back to them from a high. Oh, how he loved to torment those two dogs, jumping from tree to tree, as they would dash around their respective backyards, attempting the impossible. To catch Squirrel. Once, he hopped to the top of our cherry tree, only to miss his branch, ripe cherries flying to and fro as he came tumbling through the tree, head over paws. Eventually, landing at the foot of the tree. On Dusty' s feet. So shocked both dog and Squirrel were, they could only stare at each other in stunned wonder, before running their separate ways. Squirrel entertained our neighborhood with his pleasant, at times mischievous nature, and he will be sorely missed by all. Especially Isha and Dusty. Janesta Sullivan ----- Original Message ----- From: "Carl Westberg" To: ; ; Sent: Tuesday, June 03, 2003 2:35 PM Subject: Re: [Vision2020] (no subject) > While I appreciate Sunil coming to my defense, I must object to being > labeled an Anti-Squirrelite. I've not an anti-squirrel bone in my body. > However, I did hear today that a squirrel blew up a transformer in Moscow on > Sunday, causing a loud exploding noise and resultant power outage. > Accident, or an act of, as Dubya would say, tear? > > > > Carl Westberg Jr. > > > >From: "Sunil Ramalingam" > >To: dougl457@hotmail.com, Vision2020@moscow.com > >Subject: Re: [Vision2020] (no subject) > >Date: Tue, 03 Jun 2003 09:14:18 -0700 > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > Tired of spam? Get advanced junk mail protection with MSN 8. > http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail > From donovanarnold@hotmail.com Wed Jun 4 10:29:23 2003 From: donovanarnold@hotmail.com (Donovan Arnold) Date: Wed, 04 Jun 2003 02:29:23 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] MSD Score Highest in State on SAT Message-ID:

Folks,

I don't mean to disappoint those that try so hard to generate evidence that the MSD is incompetent and while I don't put much merit into SAT scores, as you may or may not have heard the MSD just released the results of the Idaho SAT scores. MSD 10th graders scored the HIGHEST in the state for reading and second highest in the state for Math. The rest of the grades tested, 2nd-12th, did extremely well and much higher then the state average. They also have already surpassed the expectations for the spring. Good job and congrats to the students, teachers, and parents that worked hard to achieve this!

I have replied to Mr. Courtney's email below ( those that dislike long meaningless debate about the future of the MSD may now close this email :)  )

Dale wrote:
>"* Donovan says that MSD has only lost 325 students since its high in
>1998."

> That is incorrect. MSD's high was in 1993 (2,788 students)."

"I respond:

That is not what I said Dale, What I said was that it has only consistently gone down since 1998. Meaning that the year before was not less in population then that year. Between 1993-1998 there were plenty of years where the enrollment was higher then the year before. I don't have the chart with me anymore, but I will give you an example. Say in 1993 you had 2800 students, then in 1994 you have 2500 students, then in 1995 you have 2600 students. Then in 1996 you have 2500 students, then in 1997 you have 2600 students. That is the pattern. If it gains and loses students every year it is difficult to tell it is losing population until a certain period of time. It was like watching the stock market. It goes up 3 then down 2 then up 3 then down 4 then up 5 then down 4. If you watch it for a short period of time you can't tell what direction it is going. However, if you graph it over a period of time you can see a direction it is going. You make it sound li! ke in 1993 they had 2800 students. Then in 1994 they had 2750 students then in 1995 they had 2700 students. It is NOT like that all. It is one year 2700, the next 2500, the next 2600. If you saw those number you can not predict by just looking at those numbers if the next year it will be 2700, 2500, 2400, or 2800. That is all the data they had till 1998. After 1998 ever year it was less students consistently, meaning the pervious year had less students then the next every year.

>

>"* They have been losing students every year since 1993."

I gripe Back:

Not every year, some years they picked up students, for example 1995 had more students then 1994.

>

Dale asks?

"* Is that a trend? Well, if losing 50 students per year for the last

>10 years isn't a trend, then I sure don't know what one is!"

Donovan whines back:

Yeah, that is what, less then 10 students per grade? Has Moscow faced this trend before and came back again, YES, in the 1950 and 1960's. That is what happens in small University towns.

Dale informs:

* He talks about gaining different numbers in different grades making

>it difficult to gage where how many teachers you need.
>
>* However, those numbers are well known by MSD.
>
>"* In fact, the Superintendent herself said that the numbers in the
>Elementary are decreasing at a higher rate than Junior/High School. Her
>concern (rightly) is that those Elementary grades feed into the Junior High
>and High School. One reason for not pursing a new high school facility was
>that she knows 6 years from now she's going to have 300 less children than she does today!"

Donovan bellows:

She must be a psychic then. Is it not possible that parents with HS aged children can come into the MSD? How many parents from the East coast are coming to Moscow in 6 years? How about when the new Naylor Farms industry comes to town. What happens if the economy gets worse and a ton of middle aged parents with kids in Junior High come into town to go back to school at the University? Don't think it could happen, well it sure did in 1991-1993. Check your graphs on that time. What if the economy gets worse and parents can't afford to send their kids to private school anymore?

 Dale informs:

>* Also, Donovan notes that the Census shows that Latah County and

>Moscow have an increasing elementary/secondary student population.
>
>
>* He is right. We've been thru that on this list before:
>
>

>* MSD continues to decrease at a rate of 50 students per year."

Donovan explains Statistics:

On average, that could mean exactly nothing then. If we have 3000 students one year, 2800 the next, 2900 the following, 3000 the next, 2600 the next, 2575, then 2625. On average we are losing 50 students a year. So what! How do you budget for that one year in advance? You could base it on the number of students in the grade before but then you would be wrong. Because people have the ability to move into and out of the city. They also have the ability to move their children into and out of public and private schools. This problem is further compounded by the notion that there is greater fluctuation within the different grade levels K-12. They can't move a teacher from the elementary to HS classroom always so easily. Nor does it make sense to hirer the most amount of teachers at the beginning of the year and then fire them after you get the number in and then try to rehire them the following year when the population is higher.&nb! sp;No good teachers would apply at your school reducing the quality of education.  

Dale wrote:

>* Yet Moscow overall increases at a rate of 30-35 students per year

>(per the 2000 census).
>
>"* How odd! Where are those 80-85 students per year going? Perhaps MSD

>should hire a private investigator to find out.">

I Reply:

Actually, we already know where, it is private schools. And this what I have been trying to explain to you about why shrinking and scaling back the capacity of Moscow public schools is a bad idea after a certain point. Private schools can only have so many students. First, parents have to agree with the ideology of the school (religion, curriculum, other interests). Second, they have to be accepted (meet the schools standards). Third, they parents have to have the money to send the child there. Fourth, the school has to have the capacity to hold the number of children. Fifth, the school must have all of the grade levels K-12. Six, the school must exceed state school achievement level in order for the school to remain appealing and constantly attaching new clients since they lose students every year. Finally, the school must remain profitable. If any of these factors changes then the MSD has to absorb those children. Current trends a! re that the private schools in Moscow will not continue to absorb the same percentage of children as to keep the public schools from any net gain in student enrollment.

>Dale wrote:

* I agree that much of the cost requirements have been imposed upon

>the government schools by the government. But hey! You work for the boss. If
>Uncle Sam is going to give you the money, you have to do what he says.
>That's the beauty of the private sector. If parents say something is a bogus

>requirement, they don't have to pay for it.

I agree on that one.

>Dale Wrote:

* e.g., if a group of parents want to lay out an additional

>$500/year/child for top-notched sports programs, let them. But if someone
>else wants to make use of community sports programs and only pay educators
>to educate, then they should have that right (and get a better education for

>less).

Donovan Agrees:

I agree there too.

>

>Dale Wrote:

"* Same thing with "shop", "typing", "home economics", etc. Parents can

>chose whether they want their kids in a more rigorous academic program or in

>a more VoTech type of program."

I Replied:

Heavens NO! I was almost forced into a program like that. I prefer to get a good rounded education and then decide for myself later. I don't think parents should have the power to destroy opportunities for their children, only add to them. Forcing a child to choose, or worse yet, forcing them into a specialized education at such a young age is a bad idea. I think every child should learn how to hammer in a nail, cook, and type. They are essential skills. Almost all jobs from working at burger king to administration require some typing skills. The other two are important so that you are not dependant on the government welfare programs to take care of you.

>

Dale Said:

>* My comparisons of private (non-parochial) schools to government

>schools were meant to be an apples-to-apples comparison. You cannot compare
>Higher Ed costs to elementary/secondary school costs. One would think that
>the former would be more expensive. As it turns out, it's not. Go figure!
>
>* You talk about monopolies and use telephones, computers, and
>railways as examples of natural monopolies. Those are products; a monopoly
>is a company with a product line. A natural monopoly only exist where the
>government legislates one to exist (locally: Verizon, Avista, etc) or
>subsidizes one to exist. The government schools are as much of a monopoly as
>the US Postal Service was -- and we see how good competition was for them."

My Response:

Telephones and railways are not products they are services. I do not buy telephone lines, I do not buy railroads or trains. I am buying access to a service. That is exactly what schools are, a service to children. A natural monopoly is defined and regulated by the government because it is a monopoly. The government helps them to exist if they don't. It does not invent them like you stated. Railroads were not invented by the government. Nor was computers, nor was telephones. What happened was that it was too expensive to the companies to be competitive in the same area. So they regulate the areas to make sure that the one company in the area is does not charge what ever they want to charge but also has sole claim over that jurisdiction.

I don't think you can compare the delivery of the mail to the care of a child as you stated above. You seem to be contradicting yourself in what you want done about the school system. On the one hand you want them to shrink the number of schools and teachers. But on the other hand you want to pay for school vouchers to fund 5 additional private schools. Do you really think this will decrease the cost?

>Dale says:

"* Finally, you really amuse me with the talk about "You owe the

>government; they don't owe you". That seems like a very neo-fascist statement. In a democracy, the people are the government."

I agree:

Exactly, you own those people a thanks, the government, the people, same thing.

Dale Says:

If I owe someone a "thanks", it's those who have been "thugged" for everything that I now have.

I Jest:

That was what I mean. However, I hope they all show up at your door and complain about it like you are now :).J/K

Dale Complains:

>However, it's kind of difficult to thank someone for being economically

>assaulted so that I could benefit.

I Respond:

try it!

 Dale Complains:

When we're paying taxes at a the near 50%

I Reply:

Only the middle class are taxed 50%. The poor can't be taxed for something they don't have and the GOP has given a 10% tax cut to those making 100K or more and about 3-4% tax cut to those between 100K and poverty level.

Dale Asks:

level, that's not a time to offer thanks. BTW, do you know how much taxes

>were raised to cause the Boston Tea Party?

I answer:

Yes, it was a 5% tax on the tea. However, (while I know you were taught it was about huge taxes that a huge mob of American colonists attacked a british boat and spilled a huge cargo of tea over board, it was nothing like that) the boston tea party was not about tax rates. It was about a foreign power thousands of miles away taking money, invading homes, and shooting unarmed people on the streets. In general it was taxation without representation. The colonists were taxed about 5% on things most people didn't even buy to a government that provided no services or  protection and it was one sole person, King George, that got the money.

Donovan Lectures Dale :)

You on the other hand get plenty of both, taxation and representation. I don't know why you are complaining, you have two Republican Senators, two Republican Congressmen, a supermajority in both houses of the Idaho State legislature, a Republican Governor and Lt Governor, and even a fairly conservative city council and Mayor. And of course the President, US Senate, US House of Representative, and the majority on the Supreme Court are all conservatives like you!  You should be happy with their decisions, after all the problems are caused by us moderate liberals that get in the way and were gone.

Thanks!
Donovan J Arnold

STOP MORE SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* From donovanarnold@hotmail.com Wed Jun 4 10:57:49 2003 From: donovanarnold@hotmail.com (Donovan Arnold) Date: Wed, 04 Jun 2003 02:57:49 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] (no subject) Message-ID:

Perhaps we can get Mr. Bush to declare war against the evil doer terrorist squirrel network operating right here in Moscow.

I here the leader of the cell is in direct contact with Osama Ben Squirrelly. Animal Control invaded one of the tree homes of a suspected terrorist squirrel in UI's Family Housing and found a depiction engraved of a utility box exploding. His local branch has also reported that he is sending large sums of acorns to other suspected terrorist squirrels overseas.

Donovan J Arnold

>From: Bill London
>Reply-To: london@moscow.com
>To: Mushroom , Vision2020
>Subject: Re: [Vision2020] (no subject)
>Date: Tue, 03 Jun 2003 15:50:16 -0700
>
>forecast for lively V2020 summer: ponderous theological thunderstorms with
>intermittent squirrel humor.
>BL
>
>Mushroom wrote:
>
> > thansen@moscow.com wrote:
> > > I am just as certain that the perpertrating squirrel that committed such a
> > > criminal act as that described below is an integral part of a squirrel sleeper
> > > cell that has maintained residence here in Moscow since the early seventies.
> >
> > Watch for freshly-shaved squirrels that look nervous while
> > waiting in line at the bird feeder.
> >
> > Don Coombs
> >
> > _____________________________________________________
> > List services made available by First Step Internet,
> > serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
> > http://www.fsr.net
> > mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com
> > ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ
>
>_____________________________________________________
> List services made available by First Step Internet,
> serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
> http://www.fsr.net
> mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com
>ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ

Tired of spam? Get advanced junk mail protection with MSN 8. From carlwestberg846@hotmail.com Wed Jun 4 15:44:40 2003 From: carlwestberg846@hotmail.com (Carl Westberg) Date: Wed, 04 Jun 2003 07:44:40 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] (no subject) Message-ID: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_41a8_19c0_53b4 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed I promise this will be my very last contribution to this low-brow discussion. That being said, my intelligence sources believe our local squirrels answer to a shadowy leader who operates under the sobriquet of Rocky. Images of this individual have been seen, and he curiously wears an old-fashioned leather flying helmet. He is often accompanied by an apparently rather dimwitted moose. Their relationship is unclear. Carl Westberg Jr. >From: "Donovan Arnold" >To: london@moscow.com, mushroom@moscow.com, vision2020@moscow.com >Subject: Re: [Vision2020] (no subject) >Date: Wed, 04 Jun 2003 02:57:49 -0700 > _________________________________________________________________ Protect your PC - get McAfee.com VirusScan Online http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963 ------=_NextPart_000_41a8_19c0_53b4 Content-Type: message/rfc822 X-Message-Info: cTX+9FGku41n+FzwOf3EyDRyrGhysO3u Received: from mc7-f42.law1.hotmail.com ([65.54.253.49]) by mc7-s10.law1.hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.5600); Wed, 4 Jun 2003 02:58:49 -0700 Received: from whale2.fsr.net ([207.141.26.23]) by mc7-f42.law1.hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.5600); Wed, 4 Jun 2003 02:58:49 -0700 Received: from whale2.fsr.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by whale2.fsr.net (8.12.3/8.12.3) with ESMTP id h549w2QU000209; Wed, 4 Jun 2003 02:58:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from vision2020-admin@moscow.com) Received: from psmtp.com (exprod5mx68.postini.com [12.158.34.220]) by whale2.fsr.net (8.12.3/8.12.3) with SMTP id h549vpQU099885; Wed, 4 Jun 2003 02:57:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from donovanarnold@hotmail.com) Received: from source ([207.141.26.12]) by exprod5mx68.postini.com ([12.158.34.245]) with SMTP; Wed, 04 Jun 2003 02:57:50 PDT Received: from hotmail.com (law11-f42.law11.hotmail.com [64.4.17.42]) by mx.fsr.net (8.12.8p1/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h549uF3t090973; Wed, 4 Jun 2003 02:56:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from donovanarnold@hotmail.com) Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Wed, 4 Jun 2003 02:57:49 -0700 Received: from 172.195.148.93 by lw11fd.law11.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Wed, 04 Jun 2003 09:57:49 GMT X-Originating-IP: [172.195.148.93] X-Originating-Email: [donovanarnold@hotmail.com] From: "Donovan Arnold" To: london@moscow.com, mushroom@moscow.com, vision2020@moscow.com Subject: Re: [Vision2020] (no subject) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 04 Jun 2003 09:57:49.0726 (UTC) FILETIME=[C1CE93E0:01C32A7F] X-pstn-levels: (C:79.9233 M:99.5542 P:95.9108 R:95.9108 S:24.0094 ) Sender: vision2020-admin@moscow.com Errors-To: vision2020-admin@moscow.com X-BeenThere: vision2020@moscow.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.10 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Moscow/Latah county community discussion list List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Wed, 04 Jun 2003 02:57:49 -0700 Return-Path: vision2020-admin@moscow.com

Perhaps we can get Mr. Bush to declare war against the evil doer terrorist squirrel network operating right here in Moscow.

I here the leader of the cell is in direct contact with Osama Ben Squirrelly. Animal Control invaded one of the tree homes of a suspected terrorist squirrel in UI's Family Housing and found a depiction engraved of a utility box exploding. His local branch has also reported that he is sending large sums of acorns to other suspected terrorist squirrels overseas.

Donovan J Arnold

>From: Bill London
>Reply-To: london@moscow.com
>To: Mushroom , Vision2020
>Subject: Re: [Vision2020] (no subject)
>Date: Tue, 03 Jun 2003 15:50:16 -0700
>
>forecast for lively V2020 summer: ponderous theological thunderstorms with
>intermittent squirrel humor.
>BL
>
>Mushroom wrote:
>
> > thansen@moscow.com wrote:
> > > I am just as certain that the perpertrating squirrel that committed such a
> > > criminal act as that described below is an integral part of a squirrel sleeper
> > > cell that has maintained residence here in Moscow since the early seventies.
> >
> > Watch for freshly-shaved squirrels that look nervous while
> > waiting in line at the bird feeder.
> >
> > Don Coombs
> >
> > _____________________________________________________
> > List services made available by First Step Internet,
> > serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
> > http://www.fsr.net
> > mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com
> > ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ
>
>_____________________________________________________
> List services made available by First Step Internet,
> serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
> http://www.fsr.net
> mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com
>ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ

Tired of spam? Get advanced junk mail protection with MSN 8. _____________________________________________________ List services made available by First Step Internet, serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994. http://www.fsr.net mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ ------=_NextPart_000_41a8_19c0_53b4-- From stopchristchurch@yahoo.com Wed Jun 4 17:12:48 2003 From: stopchristchurch@yahoo.com (Douglas Stambler) Date: Wed, 4 Jun 2003 09:12:48 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Vision2020] Scrabble Club Starting In Moscow Message-ID: <20030604161248.55548.qmail@web20514.mail.yahoo.com> --0-1331769636-1054743168=:54431 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Hi- I have a Scrabble board, and I'm starting a club in Moscow. E-mail me at stopchristchurch@yahoo.com if you'd like to join. Thanks! In Christ, Douglas Stambler --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Free online calendar with sync to Outlook(TM). --0-1331769636-1054743168=:54431 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
Hi-
 
I have a Scrabble board, and I'm starting a club in Moscow.  E-mail me at stopchristchurch@yahoo.com if you'd like to join.  Thanks!
 
In Christ,
Douglas Stambler

Do you Yahoo!?
Free online calendar with sync to Outlook(TM). --0-1331769636-1054743168=:54431-- From MoscowSam@moscow.com Wed Jun 4 19:18:40 2003 From: MoscowSam@moscow.com (MoscowSam) Date: Wed, 4 Jun 2003 11:18:40 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] Fw: Why am I surprised by this? :-( Message-ID: <001101c32ac5$b96b3280$04fea8c0@ATHLONXPNB> I am forwarding this one from my niece, Kat, in Portland. Sam Scripter ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Wednesday, June 04, 2003 9:16 AM Subject: Why am I surprised by this? :-( Dear Ones, Man, I wish I didn't feel compelled to send these political alerts, but the Administration From Another Planet has done it again. I suppose you all know by now that this recent tax cut is not only economically suspicious, but bizarrely and shamefully unfair: the $400/child tax credit does NOT apply to the poor! Those families making $10k-26k, the people you think would need it most, are not eligible. I have to ask myself: what are they thinking? Or perhaps more to the point: what planet are they from? Argh.... Anyway, if you're as outraged as I am, you can send a free fax to your Congressentities to urge them to FIX this. Just go to this link: http://www.truemajority.com/index.asp?action=10021&ms=txcrt1&ref=273381 If for some reason that doesn't work, just go to www.truemajority.com, and I'm sure the site will direct you to the right place. From ted_moffett@hotmail.com Wed Jun 4 20:23:50 2003 From: ted_moffett@hotmail.com (Ted Moffett) Date: Wed, 04 Jun 2003 19:23:50 +0000 Subject: [Vision2020] (no subject) Message-ID: Low brow!? The squirrel you refer to is witty, metaphorical and profound! Rocky and Bullwinkle, one of my favorites, especially the segments where Bullwinkle plays "Mr. Know It All," which offer insights into many vision2020 posts. T. >From: "Carl Westberg" >To: donovanarnold@hotmail.com, london@moscow.com, mushroom@moscow.com, >vision2020@moscow.com >Subject: Re: [Vision2020] (no subject) >Date: Wed, 04 Jun 2003 07:44:40 -0700 > >I promise this will be my very last contribution to this low-brow >discussion. That being said, my intelligence sources believe our local >squirrels answer to a shadowy leader who operates under the sobriquet of >Rocky. Images of this individual have been seen, and he curiously wears an >old-fashioned leather flying helmet. He is often accompanied by an >apparently rather dimwitted moose. Their relationship is unclear. > > > > Carl Westberg Jr. > > >>From: "Donovan Arnold" >>To: london@moscow.com, mushroom@moscow.com, vision2020@moscow.com >>Subject: Re: [Vision2020] (no subject) >>Date: Wed, 04 Jun 2003 02:57:49 -0700 >> > >_________________________________________________________________ >Protect your PC - get McAfee.com VirusScan Online >http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963 ><< message3.txt >> _________________________________________________________________ Tired of spam? Get advanced junk mail protection with MSN 8. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From ted_moffett@hotmail.com Wed Jun 4 22:47:34 2003 From: ted_moffett@hotmail.com (Ted Moffett) Date: Wed, 04 Jun 2003 21:47:34 +0000 Subject: [Vision2020] Average May 2003 Post Size Corrected Message-ID: Dale et. al. I checked my May vision2020 posts for average size. Unless I have overlooked something, I found 7 posts 10 K or larger: a 19, 12, 11, and four 10 K posts. All the rest were under 10 K. Actually, some of these large posts might be private e-mails with the Re: Vision2020 subject heading, but rather than check each one individually for addresses, I through them in anyways to create error in favor of making my average post size larger. The average size of my May vision2020 posts I got from looking at the post size as given in my Hotmail account came to 7.04 K. I may have made a mistake, I acknowledge, but it would need to be a major mistake, in favor of overlooking large vision2020 posts, to result in the real average being the 13.4 K average for my May posts that you gave on the list. I believe your figures are significantly in error. Ted _________________________________________________________________ MSN 8 with e-mail virus protection service: 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus From tex@kuoi.asui.uidaho.edu Wed Jun 4 22:51:40 2003 From: tex@kuoi.asui.uidaho.edu (TEX) Date: Wed, 4 Jun 2003 14:51:40 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Vision2020] Average May 2003 Post Size Corrected In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: This just in.. In a strange and twisted turn of social events, a small pocket of males in the pacific northwest have begun to argue over whose is smaller... Tex tex@kuoi.asui.uidaho.edu On Wed, 4 Jun 2003, Ted Moffett wrote: > > Dale et. al. > > I checked my May vision2020 posts for average size. > > Unless I have overlooked something, I found 7 posts 10 K or larger: a 19, > 12, 11, and four 10 K posts. All the rest were under 10 K. Actually, some > of these large posts might be private e-mails with the Re: Vision2020 > subject heading, but rather than check each one individually for addresses, > I through them in anyways to create error in favor of making my average post > size larger. > > The average size of my May vision2020 posts I got from looking at the post > size as given in my Hotmail account came to 7.04 K. > > I may have made a mistake, I acknowledge, but it would need to be a major > mistake, in favor of overlooking large vision2020 posts, to result in the > real average being the 13.4 K average for my May posts that you gave on the > list. > > I believe your figures are significantly in error. > > Ted > > _________________________________________________________________ > MSN 8 with e-mail virus protection service: 2 months FREE* > http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus > > _____________________________________________________ > List services made available by First Step Internet, > serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994. > http://www.fsr.net > mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com > ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ > From dale@courtneys.us Wed Jun 4 23:08:57 2003 From: dale@courtneys.us (Dale Courtney) Date: Wed, 4 Jun 2003 15:08:57 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] Average May 2003 Post Size Corrected In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <004001c32ae5$e5698100$c801a8c0@home> I concur with Tex. This is ridiculous. Ted, I will bow out and admit that you are smaller in all ways. :) Deal? Best, Dale > -----Original Message----- > From: TEX [mailto:tex@kuoi.asui.uidaho.edu] > Sent: Wednesday, 04 June, 2003 14:52 > To: Ted Moffett > Cc: dale@courtneys.us; vision2020@moscow.com > Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Average May 2003 Post Size Corrected > > > > > This just in.. > > In a strange and twisted turn of social events, a small > pocket of males in the pacific northwest have begun to argue > over whose is smaller... > > Tex > tex@kuoi.asui.uidaho.edu From ted_moffett@hotmail.com Thu Jun 5 00:49:38 2003 From: ted_moffett@hotmail.com (Ted Moffett) Date: Wed, 04 Jun 2003 23:49:38 +0000 Subject: [Vision2020] Dale's Beautiful Posts! Message-ID: Dale, et. al. I have said all I wanted to say! I never made any reference to YOUR AVERAGE post size, nor have I even looked at your posts to figure this. My last vision2020 post that gave my figure for my average post size in May did not mention your posts at all! When you publicly give facts relating to my conduct on vision2020 that are flat out false, I just wanted to correct your figures. BTW, your fancy e-mails ARE BEAUTIFUL! Ted >From: "Dale Courtney" >To: >Subject: RE: [Vision2020] Average May 2003 Post Size Corrected >Date: Wed, 4 Jun 2003 15:08:57 -0700 > >I concur with Tex. This is ridiculous. > >Ted, I will bow out and admit that you are smaller in all ways. :) > >Deal? > >Best, >Dale > _________________________________________________________________ Add photos to your messages with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail From london@moscow.com Thu Jun 5 02:06:44 2003 From: london@moscow.com (Bill London) Date: Wed, 04 Jun 2003 18:06:44 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] smart growth for Moscow Message-ID: <3EDE97A4.2AAF2054@moscow.com> In the Daily News report on Alturas (Friday, May 30), I was labeled “no-growth” for complaining that my tax dollars were now supporting the transformation of that technology park into an office mall. Calling my position “no-growth” is bogus. I am not in favor of no growth, whatever that means. I have lived in towns experiencing no growth, or even negative growth, and it is not pretty. One reason I like Moscow is that it is growing, has a vibrant culture and a healthy downtown. I fully support economic development that is manageable, sustainable and sensible—in sum, I am in favor of smart growth. The key to smart growth is planning and a steady, small growth rate: like the one or two percent annual growth that Moscow has experienced over the last decade or so. That rate of change is manageable, creates minimal social disruption, and allows for slow upgrades to the roads, sewers and other infrastructure needs. The problem comes with faster rates of development, like the ten or fifteen percent growth in Post Falls and Coeur d’Alene, for example. There the taxpayers can not fund the schools, roads and other needs—and the resulting congestion and social upheaval problems are ugly indeed. That is dumb growth. The Moscow city administration and economic development interests, unfortunately, have now formed an alliance to bring this kind of dumb growth to Moscow (as reported in the Daily News business section on Saturday, May 31). They want to loosen zoning regulations, open farmland around Moscow to sprawl, and cut deals with developers. This development alliance wants to accelerate the growth rate in Moscow, despite the costs we taxpayers must already bear from the smaller growth rate we have experienced. Here’s some examples of the costs of development that we taxpayers all must share. We are being taxed for a new fire station and sewage treatment plant due to our existing population increase. We pay to increase the number of city staff to handle the needs of an expanding population. (Despite the increase in staff, they have still not been able to adequately control that growth—for example, there were not enough staffers to monitor the activities of the developer of the housing behind Moscow Building Supply, allowing that developer to ignore the city ordinance against erosion and flooding the neighboring land with mud this spring.) In addition, those of us who live in established neighborhoods near the city core must endure increased traffic from the cars driving to the new homes on the city perimeter. Despite those existing problems with the low rate of growth we now have in Moscow, this development group wants to boost the growth rate by remaking city ordinances and plans. For example, they propose encircling Moscow with high-speed roads lined with strip mall and housing developments. That suggestion would sprawl Moscow into neighboring farmland, drain vitality from downtown, and create a town very much like what we see now in Post Falls. That kind of dumb growth is not for me. Moscow is just too nice a place to lose to that kind of short-sighted profiteering. I support smart growth instead. The November election for four city council positions is going to be crucial. In preparation, the propaganda supporting more growth and development is already flowing. We are already hearing about the need to diversify our economy (which means change the rules to encourage development), the positive partnership between the city and the business community (which means the developers will be pulling the strings), and of course the standard plea for more economic development (which means hold onto your wallet, because since there is no free lunch, we taxpayers are going to be paying for it big time). BL From dkaag@turbonet.com Thu Jun 5 02:41:55 2003 From: dkaag@turbonet.com (Don Kaag) Date: Wed, 4 Jun 2003 18:41:55 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] (no subject) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Carl: Home-boy! Do you remember the episode when Boris and Natasha tried to ruin the U.S. economy by flooding the country with counterfeit box-tops? Better than a university level macroeconomics course. Sigh... where did intelligent, educational telivision go... Rocky rules! heh, heh, Don Kaag On Wednesday, June 4, 2003, at 12:23 PM, Ted Moffett wrote: > Low brow!? The squirrel you refer to is witty, metaphorical and > profound! > Rocky and Bullwinkle, one of my favorites, especially the segments > where Bullwinkle plays "Mr. Know It All," which offer insights into > many vision2020 posts. > > T. > >> From: "Carl Westberg" >> To: donovanarnold@hotmail.com, london@moscow.com, >> mushroom@moscow.com, vision2020@moscow.com >> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] (no subject) >> Date: Wed, 04 Jun 2003 07:44:40 -0700 >> >> I promise this will be my very last contribution to this low-brow >> discussion. That being said, my intelligence sources believe our >> local squirrels answer to a shadowy leader who operates under the >> sobriquet of Rocky. Images of this individual have been seen, and he >> curiously wears an old-fashioned leather flying helmet. He is often >> accompanied by an apparently rather dimwitted moose. Their >> relationship is unclear. >> >> >> >> Carl Westberg Jr. >> >> >>> From: "Donovan Arnold" >>> To: london@moscow.com, mushroom@moscow.com, vision2020@moscow.com >>> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] (no subject) >>> Date: Wed, 04 Jun 2003 02:57:49 -0700 >>> >> >> _________________________________________________________________ >> Protect your PC - get McAfee.com VirusScan Online >> http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963 >> << message3.txt >> > > _________________________________________________________________ > Tired of spam? Get advanced junk mail protection with MSN 8. > http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail > > _____________________________________________________ > List services made available by First Step Internet, serving the > communities of the Palouse since 1994. > http://www.fsr.net > mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com > ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ > From lukenieuwsma@softhome.net Wed Jun 4 23:21:20 2003 From: lukenieuwsma@softhome.net (Luke) Date: Wed, 4 Jun 2003 15:21:20 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] Religious Diversity Education References: Message-ID: <010601c32b1e$397136c0$2f00a8c0@MOBILELUKE> Hey, Don: >they are superior to others and that nothing can stop them. He was quoted as saying, "If the Jews did >not exist it would have been necessary to invent them." It is not too shocking that a man as intelligent >and gifted as Hitler could say one thing and really think another, politicians have been doing this since >the beginning of time. I agree here with what Tom Hansen wrote. You should read Mein Kampf, Don. Hitler wasn't simply saying one thing and believing another. He meant what he said, which was Darwinism applied to world power. And no, he was not a Christian. > Your statement that "Napoleon used Catholicism, which is different than biblical Christianity". There >is no such thing as 'Biblical Christianity'." It is not listed anywhere or any definition of it anywhere. You seem to have misunderstood me. Biblical Christianity is not a nominal category of Christianity; "biblical" means following the Bible's teachings. And Catholicism is very different from biblical Christianity. To make a few notes: -Roman Catholicism holds the authority of the ecumenical councils of the church over all the Bible, but biblically, Scripture is superior to man's will and decisions. -Roman Catholicism is centered around the pope and around rituals, but biblically, Christ is at the center and not Peter, and practical teaching/obedience is upheld over rites. >It is nonexistent. If you follow the Bible then you follow Judaism. If you are Christian then you follow >Christ. Otherwise, you claim your own faith separate from the other two. Which is fine, but it is not >Christianity or Judaism. There is no such thing as "Judaic Christianity" in any real sense as you are >claiming exists. Well, good, because I am not claiming "Judaic Christianity". If you honestly follow the whole Bible, you are following Christianity. If you follow only the Old Testament revelation, you are Judaic. Otherwise, you claim your own faith separate from the other two, to use your own words. Third, >Even if you were correct about your assumptions about Hitler and Napoleon , which you are not >based on the greater minds of society, that is only two people and there are millions that slaughtered >in the name of Christianity. They put crosses on their swords. Other than the crusades, which went in the name of Roman Catholicism, I don't know what you're talking about. >>You replied: "I am not fanatical in the same way that countless of jihad suicide bombers have been >>fanatical. It is bloody murder to kill someone because they don't serve the true God, and I would >>never do such a thing." >You are fanatical in a different way, with words and ideas. This can be just as or more damaging in a >spiritual sense because you are changing souls not just taking the physical lives of people. If I convince people that Christ died for their sins, and therefore they should go forth and stop living a life of sin, what damage is that? > >>You replied: "What's wrong with owning wealth? What's wrong with being in positions of authority?" >Nothing, it is just the word "slaughtering" that was suppose to get your attention. True Christians >would use their power and wealth to help people, not kill them. I'm glad we agree on something. And that is just what true Christians have done throughout history. >>Splurb on Islamic History (mine) >Phillipens, and Africa. I would also like to point out >hat their were more people to slaughter during >these centuries then the 7th and 8th. > Actually, the Islamic war in former Byzantium continued until about September 11th, 1413 (not absolutely certain on the year, but it was in the 1400's), when Constantinople finally fell to the Muslim swords. That's 700 years for just one war. >"Their Koran says specifically that if a Muslim warrior dies fighting in the name of Allah, he will wake >up in paradise with 70+ hot chicks for his pleasure." >Which verse in the Korean specifically mentions "he will wake up in paradise with 70+ hot chicks". The wording isn't exact, but it is stated in the Koran. I'll find the verse for you shortly (I don't actually have a Koran, but I promise I'll get back to you on that). >"So, they go kill themselves in suicide bombings in the name of Allah, and they do it sincerely (which >has been happening a lot since Reagan)." >Well, perhaps this is because Reagan funded Iranians to kill Iraqis, funded Iraqis to kill Iranians and >gas their own people, funded Isreailtes to kill Palastinians,and stopped funding Afganishtan that then >sunk to the poorest nation in the world for its size. You don't seem to follow history too well, Don (no offense, but it seems true). The Iranians and Iraqis have hated each other for years and years and years; they didn't need funding to squabble, and Reagan actually never funded the Iranians, it was an officer of his acting independently, Oliver North. But anyways, that is a rabbit-trail. To get back to the point of what I was saying, there is only one way, only one truth. You seemed to have missed this point. You said that many "Christians" have been hypocritical and slaughtered millions (to paraphrase a little). But, to look at it another way, just because someone likes to make and use counterfeit dollar bills, that is no reason for us to decide not to use real dollar bills. "Oh, I think I'd better shift to francs!" Even though a few people in history, calling themselves Christians, did terrible things, that does not mean that we shouldn't follow the straight and narrow and reject Christianity. Have a great day, Luke From mghuskey@hotmail.com Thu Jun 5 21:09:34 2003 From: mghuskey@hotmail.com (Melynda Huskey) Date: Thu, 05 Jun 2003 13:09:34 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] Religious Diversity Education Message-ID: By an amazing coincidence, I just finished reading an opinion piece which has some bearing on this matter, and which the interested may find here: Boston Phoenix, June 6-12, 2003 ( http://www.bostonphoenix.com ) http://www.bostonphoenix.com/boston/news_features/other_stories/documents/02 931077.htm It's called "Arabian night sweats," and it considers some of the current religious right's interest in, and evangelization of, Islam-- "The old Orientalism, with its vicarious sense of erotic thrill in the alien, was bad enough. But in the hands the religious right, the sexualization of Islam is downright dangerous." Best, Melynda Huskey Go, said the bird, for the leaves were full of children, Hidden excitedly, containing laughter. Go, go, go, said the bird: human kind Cannot bear very much reality. Burnt Norton, T.S. Eliot _________________________________________________________________ MSN 8 helps eliminate e-mail viruses. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus From lukenieuwsma@softhome.net Wed Jun 4 23:24:03 2003 From: lukenieuwsma@softhome.net (Luke) Date: Wed, 4 Jun 2003 15:24:03 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] Re: Religious Diversity Education References: Message-ID: <010701c32b1e$3a240c00$2f00a8c0@MOBILELUKE> Hello, Ted: > I really doubt that the words "under God" will be removed by law from the > pledge of allegiance soon. > Why do you say this? What evidence do you have? Well, for one, the fact that someone actually tried it. In our relativistic age, some people like to argue that the name "God" is too religious. For example, a Hindu would be insulted; the official total of Hindu gods has risen to 30,000,000. Our society today likes to make the exception the rule, and sooner or later the Supreme Court will make a ruling taking out "under God." BTW, it was added around1930; previously there was no "under God." What goes in can be taken back out. > But the point is, how can you say the schools deny God's existence with > millions of students all over the US saying this pledge with the words > "under God." Sounds like acknowledging God's existence to me. It doesn't matter if they say once a week the word "God" when they are being taught that there is no god in their science classes all year. > You have an extreme interpretation of what it means to believe in God that > forces you to take extreme positions. Like your position on biology and > evolution. Science does not deny the possibility of the soul and an > afterlife. This is a matter of religious faith. The two are intertwined. Science is directly connected to religion; there's no coincidence that most of today's leading Darwinists are convinced there is no God. They believe we came from monkeys, and the only logical conclusion to evolutionary thinking is not that there is probably no God, but that there IS no God. You should check out the past debates between Will Provine and Philip Johnson, and you will hear exactly what I am saying, except not from a Christian but from an atheist, Mr. Provine! > said, a matter of religious faith. Many very brilliant scientists who > believe in evolution are also Christians. They have a different view of > these issues that allows them to accept the science of evolution and believe > in Christ. That doesn't make evolution true. Due to irreducible complexity, gene density, and DNA, we can know for certain that evolution doesn't work. > I do not have any blinders on. I am open to many interpretations of the > world around me on issues of science, spirituality and God etc. > Ah, you have proved my point. Your blinders kept you from seeing the actual point of what I was saying. What I said was that you had blinders on regarding what is actually taught in the public schools. > Thanks for the exchange. I hope your faith serves you well! I just wish > you would with a bit more humility consider that other faiths might have > value and truth that you are not acknowledging. I'm not saying that my faith is great because Luke Nieuwsma believes it; no, I am saying that God's sacrifice is so great, so wonderful that it is free to all men; this is not pride, this is called certainty. Ergo, I claim that Jesus Christ is the only way to happiness, joy, and salvation. > The world does not have to be an all or nothing proposition on issues of > spirituality and faith. Whoop! There goes absolute truth. There goes logic. Ted, it rather does have to be this or that. I've said it several times, but I'll say it again. 1)There is absolute truth. Either something is true, or it is false. Easy to understand. 2)Therefore, there can only be one true religion, though many false ones. You cannot have two contradictory religions (e.g. Christianity and Buddhism) true at the same time. So no, all ways do not lead to God. And no, we're not all on the same road. Either you're on the straight and narrow, or you're on the broad and crooked. Take care, and God bless, Luke From ted_moffett@hotmail.com Thu Jun 5 22:19:15 2003 From: ted_moffett@hotmail.com (Ted Moffett) Date: Thu, 05 Jun 2003 21:19:15 +0000 Subject: [Vision2020] Vision2020 Diplomacy Message-ID: Visionaries: My simple point about using simpler e-mail formats for vision2020 posts to lessen the impact on bandwidth and storage, and avoid clogging peoples inboxes, was turned into a personalized contest, a debate over an certain "issue" I never really attempted to debate. I was attempting, rather unsuccessfully it appears, to suggest to the list that people use an e-mail format that reduces post size when doing this will not impede communication. Sometimes a graph that takes a lot of kilobytes might be required! But I think for the overall health of the list it is a reasonable suggestion to use plain text e-mail for most posts. I should not have made reference to any specific person's use of HTML intensive e-mail on vision2020, to avoid ruffling any feathers. A diplomat sometimes I am NOT! Ted _________________________________________________________________ Add photos to your messages with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail From ted_moffett@hotmail.com Thu Jun 5 23:16:34 2003 From: ted_moffett@hotmail.com (Ted Moffett) Date: Thu, 05 Jun 2003 22:16:34 +0000 Subject: [Vision2020] Re: Religious Diversity Education Message-ID: Luke et. al. The words "under God" I believe were added to the pledge of allegiance in 1954, I'm pretty sure. Check on this! Some schools start every school day with the pledge, so it is not recited "once a week" as you suggest. But you demonstrate the kind of extreme all or nothing thinking I mentioned when you state that it "does not matter" that the pledge is recited in the public schools when they are being taught that there is no God in science classes. Why do you say it does not matter? Even assuming your claim that the science classes teach there is no God, I think it reasonable to assume that many sincere students and teachers of many faiths regard the reference to "under God" in the pledge to be of great significance for their faith, and the overall moral and spiritual orientation of the public schools as they serve society. At best your case that the public schools teach there is no God should be qualified to state that God's existence is acknowledged in the public schools in some situations, while in other situations God is either not mentioned, or to take your position, there is an active agenda to teach there is no God. I'll skip the debate on whether the science of evolution of valid. I don't know the actual content of public school courses everywhere, of course. But I do know what is taught in evolutionary biology regarding homo sapiens etc. And I am fully aware of the advocacy for atheism that you CLAIM is taught, so I do not know what you mean by saying I have blinders on about what is taught in public schools. Let me offer one debate on the nature of God that may illustrate that there are sensible differences of opinion on spiritual ideas that render anyone proving their point of view is the only true interpretation rather unlikely. Consider the issue of evil and Gods all powerful nature. If God is all powerful, can he choose to be evil? If he can choose to be and does so, he will no longer be all good. But if you say he cannot choose to be evil, then God ceases to be all powerful. Of course you can say God could be evil if he wanted, but he always chooses to be good, so his goodness nor his power are limited. But when you claim God is all powerful and all good, and there is evil in the world God created, it is difficult to avoid putting responsibility onto God for this evil. The standard answer is to point to disobeying angels or humans who bring evil into the world with the free choice God gave them. But if God is all powerful he knew what the choice would be before he made humanity. So how then is he not responsible when he knows the outcome will be evil? The "problem of evil" is answered by some theologians by limiting God's power in various ways. This very simple and brief example of the potential for reasonable disagreement about the nature of God I offer to suggest there there is not just one truthful way of viewing God. Or if there is, human beings can't figure it all out. So it is sensible to accept reasonable disagreements on the nature of God, and avoiding asserting that your interpretation has to be the only correct one. Ted >From: "Luke" >To: "Ted Moffett" >CC: "vision2020" >Subject: [Vision2020] Re: Religious Diversity Education >Date: Wed, 4 Jun 2003 15:24:03 -0700 > >Hello, Ted: > > > I really doubt that the words "under God" will be removed by law from >the > > pledge of allegiance soon. > > Why do you say this? What evidence do you have? > >Well, for one, the fact that someone actually tried it. In our relativistic >age, some people like to argue that the name "God" is too religious. For >example, a Hindu would be insulted; the official total of Hindu gods has >risen to 30,000,000. Our society today likes to make the exception the >rule, >and sooner or later the Supreme Court will make a ruling taking out "under >God." >BTW, it was added around1930; previously there was no "under God." What >goes >in >can be taken back out. > > > > But the point is, how can you say the schools deny God's existence with > > millions of students all over the US saying this pledge with the words > > "under God." Sounds like acknowledging God's existence to me. > >It doesn't matter if they say once a week the word "God" when they are >being >taught that there is no god in their science classes all year. > > > > You have an extreme interpretation of what it means to believe in God >that > > forces you to take extreme positions. Like your position on biology and > > evolution. Science does not deny the possibility of the soul and an > > afterlife. This is a matter of religious faith. > >The two are intertwined. Science is directly connected to religion; there's >no coincidence that most of today's leading Darwinists are convinced there >is no God. They believe we came from monkeys, and the only logical >conclusion to evolutionary thinking is not that there is probably no God, >but that there IS no God. You should check out the past debates between >Will >Provine and Philip Johnson, and you will hear exactly what I am saying, >except not from a Christian but from an atheist, Mr. Provine! > > > > said, a matter of religious faith. Many very brilliant scientists who > > believe in evolution are also Christians. They have a different view of > > these issues that allows them to accept the science of evolution and >believe > > in Christ. > >That doesn't make evolution true. Due to irreducible complexity, gene >density, and DNA, we can know for certain that evolution doesn't work. > > > > I do not have any blinders on. I am open to many interpretations of the > > world around me on issues of science, spirituality and God etc. > > > >Ah, you have proved my point. Your blinders kept you from seeing the actual >point of what I was saying. What I said was that you had blinders on >regarding what is actually taught in the public schools. > > > Thanks for the exchange. I hope your faith serves you well! I just >wish > > you would with a bit more humility consider that other faiths might have > > value and truth that you are not acknowledging. > >I'm not saying that my faith is great because Luke Nieuwsma believes it; >no, >I am saying that God's sacrifice is so great, so wonderful that it is free >to all men; this is not >pride, this is called certainty. Ergo, I claim that Jesus Christ is the >only >way to happiness, joy, and salvation. > > > > The world does not have to be an all or nothing proposition on issues of > > spirituality and faith. > >Whoop! There goes absolute truth. There goes logic. >Ted, it rather does have to be this or that. I've said it several times, >but >I'll say it again. >1)There is absolute truth. Either something is true, or it is false. Easy >to >understand. >2)Therefore, there can only be one true religion, though many false ones. >You cannot have two contradictory religions (e.g. Christianity and >Buddhism) >true at the same time. So no, all ways do not lead to God. And no, we're >not >all on the same road. Either you're on the straight and narrow, or you're >on >the broad and crooked. > >Take care, and God bless, > >Luke > > > >_____________________________________________________ > List services made available by First Step Internet, > serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994. > http://www.fsr.net > mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com >ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ _________________________________________________________________ STOP MORE SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From donovanarnold@hotmail.com Fri Jun 6 03:01:40 2003 From: donovanarnold@hotmail.com (Donovan Arnold) Date: Thu, 05 Jun 2003 19:01:40 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] Religious Diversity Education Message-ID:

Hi Luke, 

Donovan:
"they are superior to others and that nothing can stop them. He was quoted
>as saying, "If the Jews did >not exist it would have been necessary to
>invent them." It is not too shocking that a man as intelligent >and gifted
>as Hitler could say one thing and really think another, politicians have
>been doing this since >the beginning of time."
>

>Luke:

I agree here with what Tom Hansen wrote. You should read Mein Kampf, Don.

>Hitler wasn't simply saying one thing and believing another. He meant what
>he said, which was Darwinism applied to world power. And no, he was not a Christian.

Donovan:

Hitler was thrown into jail for his political activism. Therefore, to say that a book he wrote after the time he choose to enter the arena of politics makes this as evidence of his "true thoughts" argument mute. Find something that he wrote before he ever finished school. Find some writings of his when he was a Corporal in the Army? Hillary Clinton just released a book talking about who she was "hurt"  by Bill's infidelities with Monica Lewinsky. Give me a break! Bill has been cheating on here LONG before he ever met Ms. Lewinsky. Nor do I doubt that she is so stupid as to not know about this infidelities when he was Governor considering that the entire state of Arkansas did know about them. Yet, this is a good political maneuver to win over the sympathy of the women voter for when she runs for president.

 If he believed what he said, then he believed he was a Christian.

Donovan:

Your statement that "Napoleon used Catholicism, which is different than biblical Christianity". There is no such thing as 'Biblical Christianity'." It is not listed anywhere or any definition of it anywhere.

Luke:

"You seem to have misunderstood me. Biblical Christianity is not a nominal category of Christianity; "biblical" means following the Bible's teachings. And Catholicism is very different from biblical Christianity. To make a few notes: Roman Catholicism holds the authority of the ecumenical councils of the church over all the Bible, but biblically, Scripture is superior to man's will and decisions.

Donovan:

You obviously aren't Catholic! The authority of the Catholic Church comes from the Bible. The councils only interpret the Bible and it is their interpretation Catholics are to follow (suppose to, many do not). As you know their are many issues that the bible does not talk about, like abortion, pornography,genetic engineering, pollution, foreign policy, war, economics, etc. It is the Church that must interpret these issues based on Scripture. Otherwise, we would have a billion Catholics running around like chickens with their heads off not knowing what exactly Jesus thinks about this new issue. Almost all of the teaching are inline with that of the other Christian Churches around the world. It is not a bunch of fat celibate guys sitting around a room figuring what ever they want everyone to believe as you suggest. They study the bible for decades, travel, and debate the issue based on what the bible says. Then they make a d! eclaration and everyone is suppose to follow it. Other churches pick some guy up off the street that completed bible study, ordain him, and he says whatever he thinks to the church followers. Not a good idea. Under this system, Satan would make a great preacher, he is congenial, easy to get along with, people really like him, he knows the bible better then any man on earth, he is humorous, and he can twist the meaning of Scripture so well that nobody but Christ could catch him on it.    

Luke:

>"-Roman Catholicism is centered around the pope and around rituals, but

>biblically, Christ is at the center and not Peter, and practical

>teaching/obedience is upheld over rites."

Donovan:

Oops, you been getting you information from someone that is jealous of the Catholic Church, perhaps a Pastor that is arrogant, or teacher who is against the church. The Catholic Church is centered around the teachings of Christ. Mainly the four gospels of Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John, but also other books of the Bible like the Letters to the Romans. It emphasizes the sacraments as a way to build a personal relationship with Christ, such as communion and reconciliation. Also, all Catholic Churches have the same Mass all over the world, with the exception of the Hominy.

Donovan:

Third,

> >Even if you were correct about your assumptions about Hitler and Napoleon ,
>which you are not >based on the greater minds of society, that is only two
>people and there are millions that slaughtered >in the name of Christianity.
>They put crosses on their swords.
>

Luke:

>Other than the crusades, which went in the name of Roman Catholicism, I don't know what you're talking about.

Donovan:

Oh, yes, try picking up a history book, Christian Europeans and their descendants slaughtered more people then any other group of people since the year 1300. Ever hear of slavery? How about Africa? How about México and the Aztecs? Did you know that the entire North American Continent had people on it before Christian Europeans got here, do ya think they just decide to go away because they had some place better to go? Ever hear of Vietnam? Grenada? Iraq? How about Japan in 1945, you know what happened there? How about Cuba in the 1890's? How about Eskimos? Would like to know what the Church of England did to Ireland, Scotland, North American Colonists, France, Spain, Aborigines, and Zulu? Why is Hopi Indians population down to virtually nothing? Not to mention all the people we had killed by supporting death squads in El Salvador and Nicaragua. How about the funding of Osama Bin Laden to fight the Soviet Union in the 1980's? How about the arms negotiati! ons of the Ronald Regan Administration with the Iranians? How about the Asian population that came over to the United States and built our railroads, do you think they were treated well? How about all the countless murders and hangings of African Americans in the South up until the 1970's (assuming they have stopped I don't know)? How about the purchasing of products that fuel the funding for the inhuman slave labor of little boys and girls in China? How about the huge amount of suffering and misery we cause by polluting the oceans, rivers,streams, land, and air? All the people that do these things everyday in the world claim to be bible believing christians, they attend church, pray to God, and pronounced the same beliefs you do. I do not find them any better people then the others around the world that pronounce any other faith. You can deny this, but it is recorded fact, if you don't know any of this is going on then you are not in a position to be ju! dging others or making proclamations as to what is the better of any t wo faiths.    

>
>

Luke:

"I am not fanatical in the same way that countless of jihad

>suicide bombers have been >>fanatical. It is bloody murder to kill someone
>because they don't serve the true God, and I would >>never do such a thing."

> >

Donovan:

You are fanatical in a different way, with words and ideas. This can be

>just as or more damaging in a spiritual sense because you are changing
>souls not just taking the physical lives of people.
>
>

Luke:

"If I convince people that Christ died for their sins, and therefore they should go forth and stop living a life of sin, what damage is that?"

Donovan:

You do not convince them of that. Instead you make them angry. If I saw someone say Christianity is the best religion and the countries that professed that faith caused the most world wide damage I would be included to think they are fools and soon to meet an unfriendly end by God. You must first be holy then preach holiness. You can't be the most wicked and cause the most damage and then say "we are holy follow us!" This does not work, sorry. You shall know them by the fruit they bare.

Donovan:

Philippines, and Africa. I would also like to point out >hat their were more

>people to slaughter during >these centuries then the 7th and 8th. >
>

Luke:

>Actually, the Islamic war in former Byzantium continued until about

>September 11th, 1413 (not absolutely certain on the year, but it was in the 1400's), when Constantinople finally fell to the Muslim swords. That's 700 years for just one war.

Donovan:

I guess the European Christians felt inclined to take over the slaughter after his time?

>

Luke:

"Their Koran says specifically that if a Muslim warrior dies fighting in the name of Allah, he will wake >up in paradise with 70+ hot chicks for his pleasure."

Donovan:

Which verse in the Korean specifically mentions "he will wake up in paradise with 70+ hot chicks".

Luke:

The wording isn't exact, but it is stated in the Koran. I'll find the verse

>for you shortly (I don't actually have a Koran, but I promise I'll get back
>to you on that).

Donovan:

Well I think the wording is important especially when you say, "specifically" which implies exact wording. If you went to the Library you could pick up the Koran, or you could type it into Google. However, I don't think you are trained enough to read it as it is suppose to be read just as you can't pick up a copy of the Bible and say "Christians believe in the bible, the Bible says to stone anyone that commits adult, I am  going to go stone my neighbor so I can please God!" I doubt your wisdom of the book is any better then mine and you probably are better off talking to someone about it that knows and follows it before jumping to conclusions about its teachings and meanings. Just like you would be offending by someone saying someone saying you believe in polygamy and stoning because the book you read preaches it. You would at least want to be given the chance to explain it. You need to give a Muslim the same opportunity.

>

>Luke:

You don't seem to follow history too well, Don (no offense, but it seems

>true). The Iranians and Iraqis have hated each other for years and years and years;
>they didn't need funding to squabble, and Reagan actually never funded the
>Iranians, it was an officer of his acting independently, Oliver North.
>But anyways, that is a rabbit-trail. To get back to the point of what I was
>saying, there is only one way, only one truth. You seemed to have missed this point.

Donovan:

First of all, I am well aware of the Iran-Contra Affair. I was living in Washington DC at the time and my Father was working in a building right across from Oliver North and was the same rank as he but in the Navy. I also studied it in depth for my political science degree. Lt. Colonel Oliver North was not high enough to authorize the illegal shipment of arms to Iran for the purpose of making sales to illegally fund the Contras Death Squads in the Nicaragua. Nor did Oliver North have high enough security clearance to find out and hire former CIA agents to assist the Contras in their military objectives. Admiral Pointdexter of the US Navy was charged to find a way to stop the "Communist Movement" In Nicaragua by "unknown" members of the Regan Administration. In order to do so they had to hide the evidence because the US Legislature passed a law forbidding the funding of the Contras. The Contras were killing the Nicaraguan people because they were supporting the Sandin! istas who were communist and wanted the ruling powers to stop stealing their land to grow coffee beans, and illegal drugs because they needed the land to grow food. But because they were "Communist" and close to the United States and Reagan thought that Communism was the greatest threat to America and Freedom, he had to assist the Contras instead. So Pointdexer illegally arranged to sell arms to the Iranians to illegally fund the Contras. Lt. Col. North was just a low man on the totem poll that shredded the paperwork to help cover it all up. So the controversy surrounds the man who was following his orders and standing against Communism, and also selling arms to the Iranians. This is the simple story, I could get into more detail if you want. Blaming a  Lt. Col. for having the sole power to negotiate an arms deal with international authorities is silly. Don't you think he would have someone else drive him to Skippers to eat the all you can! eat buffet while my sister poured his coffee for him if he had power of the Department of Defense and the CIA? Don't you think he would have more then just one secretary working for him in his tiny little office? Don't you think he would at least have his own parking space at work? Don't you think he would be higher in rank then a Lt. Colonel? Considering that every other guy working in his building was a 05 or higher?

You are correct that the Iranians and Iraq's have been at each others throats for years. This is primarily because of a small piece of land that is on the boarder that they each claim is theirs. However, Iran is much larger and more powerful then Iraq. In November of 1979 General Saddam Hussein was elected as the head of the Baath Party in Iraq which ruled Iraq. He declared war against the Iranians to attempt to expand Iraq and gain popularity. Saddam began to lose the war and instead of taking the land the Iranians were defeating him on his own soil. In 1981 Reagan took office and did not like the Iranians because they ousted the Shah and held Americans Hostages in 1980. So Reagan thought to fund Saddam and his Military. Donald Rumsfeld was sent as a Special Convoy for the President to meet with Saddam(check my earlier posts, I send a picture of Rumsfeld shaking hands with Hussein). The US agreed to fund Saddam to defeat the Iranians. S! addam used the funding to create nerve gas(with US knowledge). When the Kurds in his own country of Iraq attacked his forces in the North, he was being closed in on by the Iranians from the East and Kurdish forces in the North. In order to stop this, he gassed the Kurds in the north and then moved his forces to the East. The war then raged on for another 5 years where a it ended in a truce in 1988. However, it did not end before 1 million soldiers had died on both sides. A huge number for countries that have 22 million and 50 million. This war would not have ended so tragically had the Reagan Administration not given arms to the Iranians and the Iraqis at the same time to continue fighting the war. Everyone would have been better off if we would not have funded either one and let Iran demolish Saddam and prevented the Kurds from being gassed because of US tax dollars going to fund both sides of the war and the fund! ing of Contras Death Squads in Central America.  

The Reagan Administration also funded Osama Bin Laden to lead a resistance movement in Afghanistan against an attempted take over by the Soviet Union. 

>Luke:

You said that many "Christians" have been hypocritical and slaughtered millions (to paraphrase a little). But, to look at it another way, just because someone likes to make and use counterfeit dollar bills, that is no reason for us to decide not to use real dollar bills. "Oh, I think I'd better shift to francs!" Even though a few people in history, calling themselves Christians, did terrible things, that does not mean that we shouldn't follow the straight and narrow and reject Christianity.

I am not arguing that we reject Christianity, I am arguing that Christians have proven to be no greater then the other faiths you seem to give no merit to. Is it possible that Allah is the same as God, as Yahweh is the same as God, as the Father of Christ is the same as God. As the maker of Heaven and Earth is the same God? As the God of David and Jacob is the same God? We have 80 million different names for the same God, is it not possible that God came to them in a different form and taught to a different people and different cultures a different way so they may come to understand the Lord? Are the Hindus incorrect in saying that their are over 30 Million gods? "God says that you shall worship no other God besides me." This indicates to me that there is indeed more then just one God.

I agree with you that there is only one "true" God. I disagree that the name and interpretation and understanding of him by "many" of today's so called "Christians" is the only and true interpretation of him. Most if not all religions seem to have some very strong connections. Most if not all believe that there is one "Super God" a god above all others. Most seem to believe that murder, rape, lying, cheating, stealing, and sleeping with another's spouse is wrong. Most seem to believe that they must worship and pray. Most seem to have a concept of "sin". Most believe that someone has come down either as "Child of God" or a great prophet. Most seem to believe in a concept of heaven and hell. Most seem to think that people have a "soul" or something like it. Most seem to think that God created everything in some way or some how. Most seem to be centered around fighting or working for God. I find this more then a coincidence that all these things are the same. Most seem to ! have stories about the creation of the Earth and of people from the forming out of Corn, to being animals, to being created from dust. Most seem to have weird rituals. Most seem to believe in some type of rapture or a Godly end to the world. Most seem to think that their religion is the true and only way and that all others are different then the theirs.
Did you know that Native Americans had the exact ten commandments as the ones given in the Bible? They received them long before anyone from the Eastern world came. They claim it is was given to them by the "Great Spirit". The Great Spirit made all things and once even sent a Man who was his child, born of a Virgin from a spiritual tribe. He disappeared young and preached of the Great Spirit before he disappeared. The followers of this man formed the 12 tribes of Iroquois and ended a thousand year war that was going on in the Eastern part of what is now the United States. Gee, who does this sound like to you?
Perhaps if you stopped talking for bit, and listen, you would find out that god loves other people besides the wealthiest, fattest, greediest, murderous, white people that have a special need to interfere with the internal affairs and customs of people around the world that just trying to eek of an existence for themselves and their families. Other cultures have been contacted by God and the Holy Spirit and have words of wisdom and serenity and Gods grace. Jesus was in human form, ever think when he was in Spiritual Form he might have at least said "hello" to other people outside Jerusalem? Or is the only people saved living in a little church in Idaho or Washington with less then 2000 followers as you presume? Like Hello! Are you for real Luke?
 
Donovan J Arnold

The new MSN 8: smart spam protection and 2 months FREE* From cobaltkumquat@yahoo.com Fri Jun 6 03:50:56 2003 From: cobaltkumquat@yahoo.com (Marina Piatt) Date: Thu, 5 Jun 2003 19:50:56 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Vision2020] thanks (was 'help for victims of fire') Message-ID: <20030606025056.96657.qmail@web41902.mail.yahoo.com> --0-359304272-1054867856=:94723 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Hi, I just wanted to say thanks to everyone who emailed me with information about places for rent. I'm happy to say that we've all found places to live now, so we can sleep on our own floors instead of those of our friends! Marina --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. --0-359304272-1054867856=:94723 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
Hi,
 
     I just wanted to say thanks to everyone who emailed me with information about places for rent. I'm happy to say that we've all found places to live now, so we can sleep on our own floors instead of those of our friends!
 
Marina

Do you Yahoo!?
The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. --0-359304272-1054867856=:94723-- From donovanarnold@hotmail.com Fri Jun 6 04:16:44 2003 From: donovanarnold@hotmail.com (Donovan Arnold) Date: Thu, 05 Jun 2003 20:16:44 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] Pledge of Allegiance Message-ID:

Luke and Ted (and others if you care),

The Pledge of Allegiance was originally written by Francis Bellamy (although some argue it was James Upham). It was first published by "The Youth Companion" in Boston Massachusetts in 1892 in the September addition. The Youth Companion was like a publication for what would be considered like the "Boys Scouts of America" today. Gradually over a period of time it was adopted by many. On June 14, 1954 (Ted is correct on this one) the words "under God" were added by the United States Legislature as way of showing up the Soviet Union to world opinion because they preached there was no God.

The Forefathers of this Nation would have been aghast by the notion of pledging allegiance to a country instead of God. They also believed that all government was evil and that pledging allegiance to any form of evil was blasphemy. Furthermore, nobody believed in allegiance to the federal government over their State. This type of federalism would have never been even considered by the strongest of  Federalists such as Thomas Jefferson.

I understand why some people don't like the pledge allegiance (I still do but to each their own), it was alien and offensive to the creators of the Constitution, seems blasphemous to believes of God if they think government is a necessary evil, and can be offensive to atheists.

So the argument that "Christians" want to say or don't want say the pledge of allegiance seems kind of pointless because both "Christians" and "Atheists" have excellent reasons to be against or for the mandating of the pledge as it stands now with or without the words "under God".

Donovan J Arnold

>From: "Ted Moffett"
>To: lukenieuwsma@softhome.net
>CC: vision2020@moscow.com
>Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Re: Religious Diversity Education
>Date: Thu, 05 Jun 2003 22:16:34 +0000
>
>
>Luke et. al.
>
>The words "under God" I believe were added to the pledge of
>allegiance in 1954, I'm pretty sure. Check on this!
>
>Some schools start every school day with the pledge, so it is not
>recited "once a week" as you suggest.
>But you demonstrate the kind of extreme all or nothing thinking I
>mentioned when you state that it "does not matter" that the pledge
>is recited in the public schools when they are being taught that
>there is no God in science classes. Why do you say it does not
>matter? Even assuming your claim that the science classes teach
>there is no God, I think it reasonable to assume that many sincere
>students and teachers of many faiths regard the reference to "under
>God" in the pledge to be of great significance for their faith, and
>the overall moral and spiritual orientation of the public schools as
>they serve society.
>
>At best your case that the public schools teach there is no God
>should be qualified to state that God's existence is acknowledged in
>the public schools in some situations, while in other situations God
>is either not mentioned, or to take your position, there is an
>active agenda to teach there is no God.
>
>I'll skip the debate on whether the science of evolution of valid.
>
>I don't know the actual content of public school courses everywhere,
>of course. But I do know what is taught in evolutionary biology
>regarding homo sapiens etc. And I am fully aware of the advocacy
>for atheism that you CLAIM is taught, so I do not know what you mean
>by saying I have blinders on about what is taught in public schools.
>
>Let me offer one debate on the nature of God that may illustrate
>that there are sensible differences of opinion on spiritual ideas
>that render anyone proving their point of view is the only true
>interpretation rather unlikely.
>
>Consider the issue of evil and Gods all powerful nature. If God is
>all powerful, can he choose to be evil?
>If he can choose to be and does so, he will no longer be all good.
>But if you say he cannot choose to be evil, then God ceases to be
>all powerful. Of course you can say God could be evil if he wanted,
>but he always chooses to be good, so his goodness nor his power are
>limited. But when you claim God is all powerful and all good, and
>there is evil in the world God created, it is difficult to avoid
>putting responsibility onto God for this evil. The standard answer
>is to point to disobeying angels or humans who bring evil into the
>world with the free choice God gave them. But if God is all
>powerful he knew what the choice would be before he made humanity.
>So how then is he not responsible when he knows the outcome will be
>evil? The "problem of evil" is answered by some theologians by
>limiting God's power in various ways.
>
>This very simple and brief example of the potential for reasonable
>disagreement about the nature of God I offer to suggest there there
>is not just one truthful way of viewing God. Or if there is, human
>beings can't figure it all out. So it is sensible to accept
>reasonable disagreements on the nature of God, and avoiding
>asserting that your interpretation has to be the only correct one.
>
>Ted
>
>
>>From: "Luke"
>>To: "Ted Moffett"
>>CC: "vision2020"
>>Subject: [Vision2020] Re: Religious Diversity Education
>>Date: Wed, 4 Jun 2003 15:24:03 -0700
>>
>>Hello, Ted:
>>
>> > I really doubt that the words "under God" will be removed by law
>>from the
>> > pledge of allegiance soon.
>> > Why do you say this? What evidence do you have?
>>
>>Well, for one, the fact that someone actually tried it. In our
>>relativistic
>>age, some people like to argue that the name "God" is too
>>religious. For
>>example, a Hindu would be insulted; the official total of Hindu
>>gods has
>>risen to 30,000,000. Our society today likes to make the exception
>>the rule,
>>and sooner or later the Supreme Court will make a ruling taking out
>>"under
>>God."
>>BTW, it was added around1930; previously there was no "under God."
>>What goes
>>in
>>can be taken back out.
>>
>>
>> > But the point is, how can you say the schools deny God's
>>existence with
>> > millions of students all over the US saying this pledge with the
>>words
>> > "under God." Sounds like acknowledging God's existence to me.
>>
>>It doesn't matter if they say once a week the word "God" when they
>>are being
>>taught that there is no god in their science classes all year.
>>
>>
>> > You have an extreme interpretation of what it means to believe
>>in God that
>> > forces you to take extreme positions. Like your position on
>>biology and
>> > evolution. Science does not deny the possibility of the soul
>>and an
>> > afterlife. This is a matter of religious faith.
>>
>>The two are intertwined. Science is directly connected to religion;
>>there's
>>no coincidence that most of today's leading Darwinists are
>>convinced there
>>is no God. They believe we came from monkeys, and the only logical
>>conclusion to evolutionary thinking is not that there is probably
>>no God,
>>but that there IS no God. You should check out the past debates
>>between Will
>>Provine and Philip Johnson, and you will hear exactly what I am
>>saying,
>>except not from a Christian but from an atheist, Mr. Provine!
>>
>>
>> > said, a matter of religious faith. Many very brilliant
>>scientists who
>> > believe in evolution are also Christians. They have a different
>>view of
>> > these issues that allows them to accept the science of evolution
>>and
>>believe
>> > in Christ.
>>
>>That doesn't make evolution true. Due to irreducible complexity,
>>gene
>>density, and DNA, we can know for certain that evolution doesn't
>>work.
>>
>>
>> > I do not have any blinders on. I am open to many
>>interpretations of the
>> > world around me on issues of science, spirituality and God etc.
>> >
>>
>>Ah, you have proved my point. Your blinders kept you from seeing
>>the actual
>>point of what I was saying. What I said was that you had blinders
>>on
>>regarding what is actually taught in the public schools.
>>
>> > Thanks for the exchange. I hope your faith serves you well! I
>>just wish
>> > you would with a bit more humility consider that other faiths
>>might have
>> > value and truth that you are not acknowledging.
>>
>>I'm not saying that my faith is great because Luke Nieuwsma
>>believes it; no,
>>I am saying that God's sacrifice is so great, so wonderful that it
>>is free
>>to all men; this is not
>>pride, this is called certainty. Ergo, I claim that Jesus Christ is
>>the only
>>way to happiness, joy, and salvation.
>>
>>
>> > The world does not have to be an all or nothing proposition on
>>issues of
>> > spirituality and faith.
>>
>>Whoop! There goes absolute truth. There goes logic.
>>Ted, it rather does have to be this or that. I've said it several
>>times, but
>>I'll say it again.
>>1)There is absolute truth. Either something is true, or it is
>>false. Easy to
>>understand.
>>2)Therefore, there can only be one true religion, though many false
>>ones.
>>You cannot have two contradictory religions (e.g. Christianity and
>>Buddhism)
>>true at the same time. So no, all ways do not lead to God. And no,
>>we're not
>>all on the same road. Either you're on the straight and narrow, or
>>you're on
>>the broad and crooked.
>>
>>Take care, and God bless,
>>
>>Luke
>>
>>
>>
>>_____________________________________________________
>> List services made available by First Step Internet,
>> serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
>> http://www.fsr.net
>> mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com
>>ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ
>
>_________________________________________________________________
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>_____________________________________________________
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>mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com
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Add photos to your messages with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. From thansen@moscow.com Fri Jun 6 04:42:28 2003 From: thansen@moscow.com (Tom Hansen) Date: Thu, 5 Jun 2003 20:42:28 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] Pledge of Allegiance In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Greetings Visionaires - The history of the Pledge of Allegiance interests me. I have surfed around on the net and found a sight that explains it very well. It is located at: http://www.homeofheroes.com/hallofheroes/1st_floor/flag/1bfc_pledge.html Tell me what you think. I was kinda surprised at a little of it. Take care, Tom Hansen "Patriotism is not a short and frenzied outburst of emotion but the tranquil and steady dedication of a lifetime." --Adlai E. Stevenson, Jr. From ted_moffett@hotmail.com Fri Jun 6 05:21:57 2003 From: ted_moffett@hotmail.com (Ted Moffett) Date: Fri, 06 Jun 2003 04:21:57 +0000 Subject: [Vision2020] Re: Pledge of Allegiance Message-ID: Donovan: Of course there are numerous reasons Christians may oppose the Pledge of Allegiance as it is now spoken in public schools There are good reasons to oppose government sponsored promotion of belief in "God" for anyone who supports a strong interpretation of the principle of separation of church and state, whether they be a deist, agnostic, atheist or otherwise. And of course Christians who view the public schools as a sinister plot to push government sponsored agnosticism as a "religion" view the "under God" wording as meaningless or sacrilegious. But the facts are clear that a majority of Christians in the USA support keeping the words "under God" in the pledge as it is spoken in public schools. There was outrage, a feeding frenzy, when a federal court ruled the words "under God" in the pledge as spoken in public schools was unconstitutional. President Bush spoke out against this ruling, which came from a "left wing" leaning federal court in the western US. This ruling never took effect nor will it or any ruling like it be put into law anytime soon. The US Senate voted unanimously to keep the "under God" wording, a bit of politically motivated grandstanding considering the Senate was not then making any formal legal decision. I discussed this ruling with a federal court lawyer working in Boise. He said that in blocking the ruling from taking effect, the interpretation was made that the word "God" in the pledge is meant more generally to apply to anyone's beliefs in a supreme being, power or powers, not just to the God of Christianity, so the "under God" wording is not a promotion of a particular religious faith over any other. I find this reasoning rather suspect, but then I'm not a lawyer. Ted _________________________________________________________________ Help STOP SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From ltrwritr@moscow.com Fri Jun 6 05:56:46 2003 From: ltrwritr@moscow.com (Mark Rounds) Date: Thu, 5 Jun 2003 21:56:46 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Vision2020] Public vs. Private Schools and Parental Involvement Message-ID: <200306060456.h564ugQZ085225@whale2.fsr.net> Dale There are those of us, for security reasons that use e-mail browsers that do not allow active content or html tags. What we get is your text mishmashed with a bunch of tags. It does tend to detract from the impact fo your words. Far be it from me to tell you what to do but it would help us all understand a bit more if you just kept to to text only as an option. Mark Rounds From donovanarnold@hotmail.com Fri Jun 6 05:57:59 2003 From: donovanarnold@hotmail.com (Donovan Arnold) Date: Thu, 05 Jun 2003 21:57:59 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] Re: Pledge of Allegiance Message-ID:

Ted,

I agree with you that the wording of "under God" is not going away. But, I don't think it matters in any real sense that it does or doesn't. People only say it because it is instinct to do so. I feel that it is a real non-issue in the grand scheme of things. We also say in the pledge that we believe "in justice for all". I don't see people that deny equal rights to women, gays, blacks, atheists, and others saying "hey we don't want to say 'justice for all'." Bottom line is people outside of the classroom don't say it enough, and the kids have no idea what the words indivisible, pledge, allegiance, justice, and liberty mean anyway. Some kids even say "invisible" instead of "indivisible" because they have not reached that level of vocabulary is of an upper grade level. By the time they are old enough to understand what those words mean they have been saying it for so long and it hardly matters to challenge it then. Who it really matters to is the parents of kids. They ! want to teach them about God and to respect God. I think that is a good thing. However, like I was saying before, I agree with you on the issue. I don't think it is going away. Some people will waste their time and energy on keeping it and some on getting rid of it when in fact they should be concentrating on real issues like enforcing "justice for all" and "liberty for all" not arguing over what words to force out of the mouths of children when they don't even understand what they are saying anyway. I think you and me agree on most things 99.9% of the time. : )

Donovan J Arnold



MSN 8 helps ELIMINATE E-MAIL VIRUSES. Get 2 months FREE*. From lukenieuwsma@softhome.net Fri Jun 6 05:50:50 2003 From: lukenieuwsma@softhome.net (Luke) Date: Thu, 5 Jun 2003 21:50:50 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] Re: Religious Diversity Education References: Message-ID: <023701c32be7$d6fbece0$2f00a8c0@MOBILELUKE> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0223_01C32BAC.87B1C690 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello, Mr. Moffet: > The words "under God" I believe were added to the pledge of allegiance = in=20 > 1954, I'm pretty sure. Check on this! Well, that simply goes to show my point even more. Those words were = added rather recently, and they can be taken right out again easily. Why do you say it does not matter? Even assuming your claim that=20 > the science classes teach there is no God, I think it reasonable to = assume=20 > that many sincere students and teachers of many faiths regard the = reference=20 > to "under God" in the pledge to be of great significance for their = faith,=20 > and the overall moral and spiritual orientation of the public schools = as=20 > they serve society. Maybe so for a few, but not the majority of the students. The reason = I say it doesn't matter is that the philosophical implications of = neo-Darwinism reduce us to mere organisms striving to survive, intaking = energy, placed on earth by mere chance. Just like all the other = creatures. In fact, since we're just more fully evolved animals, the = logical conclusion from this is that we live like animals.=20 When is the last time you saw a squirrel give a skunk, or a cat, or = another squirrel some nuts out of kindness? The ramifications of = evolution are self-centered lifestyles. That is why I say it does not = matter whether some highschool kid, taught that he's the new and = improved ape, says "one nation under God" once, or twice, or 5 times a = week. To attempt an answer to your "God and evil" dilemma: God has the power to do anything, but another attribute of God is His = perfect righteousness. Therefore, He never sins, yet is capable of all = things. He allowed man to sin so that He could glorify Himself and make = man more glorious than he already was. It's like allowing a silver vase = to get dirty so you can clean it and put on polish, and make it far more = shiny and beautiful than before. God did not create evil, He created man as capable of evil. Evil exists = as the opposite of God. You cannot have light without darkness, which is = simply the absence of light; the same thing applies to God's goodness. For every single question that man can make, there is a true answer. And = everyone cannot be right. On a trigonometry test, there can be a hard = question with only one correct answer. Many students may come up with = the wrong answer, and have their own proofs etc to back it up too yet; = however, there is still only one answer. And when you know you have the = right answer, you don't have to try to solve the problem any longer or = consider other solutions.=20 Best, Luke Nieuwsma ------=_NextPart_000_0223_01C32BAC.87B1C690 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hello, Mr. Moffet:
 
> The words "under God" I believe = were added to=20 the pledge of allegiance in
> 1954, I'm pretty sure.  Check = on=20 this!
 
Well, that simply goes to show my point = even more.=20 Those words were added rather recently, and they can be taken right out = again=20 easily.
 
 
  Why do you say it does not = matter? =20 Even assuming your claim that
> the science classes teach there = is no=20 God, I think it reasonable to assume
> that many sincere students = and=20 teachers of many faiths regard the reference
> to "under God" in = the=20 pledge to be of great significance for their faith,
> and the = overall=20 moral and spiritual orientation of the public schools as
> they = serve=20 society.
 
    Maybe so for a few, = but not the=20 majority of the students. The reason I say it doesn't matter is that the = philosophical implications of neo-Darwinism reduce us to mere organisms = striving=20 to survive, intaking energy, placed on earth by mere chance. Just like = all the=20 other creatures. In fact, since we're just more fully evolved animals, = the=20 logical conclusion from this is that we live like animals.
    When is the last = time you saw a=20 squirrel give a skunk, or a cat, or another squirrel some nuts out of = kindness?=20 The ramifications of evolution are self-centered lifestyles. That is why = I say=20 it does not matter whether some highschool kid, taught that he's the new = and=20 improved ape, says "one nation under God" once, or twice, or 5 times a=20 week.
 
 
To attempt an answer to your "God and = evil"=20 dilemma:
God has the power to do anything, but = another=20 attribute of God is His perfect righteousness. Therefore, He never sins, = yet is=20 capable of all things. He allowed man to sin so that He could glorify = Himself=20 and make man more glorious than he already was. It's like allowing a = silver vase=20 to get dirty so you can clean it and put on polish, and make it far more = shiny=20 and beautiful than before.
 
God did not create evil, He created man = as capable of evil. Evil exists as the opposite of God. You cannot = have=20 light without darkness, which is simply the absence of light; the same = thing=20 applies to God's goodness.
 
For every single question that man can = make, there=20 is a true answer. And everyone cannot be right. On a trigonometry test, = there=20 can be a hard question with only one correct answer. Many students may = come up=20 with the wrong answer, and have their own proofs etc to back it up too = yet;=20 however, there is still only one answer. And when you know you have the = right=20 answer, you don't have to try to solve the problem any longer or = consider other=20 solutions.

 
Best,
Luke Nieuwsma
 
------=_NextPart_000_0223_01C32BAC.87B1C690-- From donovanarnold@hotmail.com Fri Jun 6 10:15:25 2003 From: donovanarnold@hotmail.com (Donovan Arnold) Date: Fri, 06 Jun 2003 02:15:25 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] Re: Religious Diversity Education Message-ID:

Luke,

If the western world conception of God is so correct, and the Bible has all the anwers then humor me with the answer to these questions?

If God can do anything, can he make the world so heavy he can't pick it up?

Can he make the Sun so hot he can't touch it?

Can God make the ocean so deep that he cannot swim to the surface?

Can he make the sky so high he can't reach the top?

Can he make the world so far away that he can't reach it?

There is an answer to these questions, but your can't get to it with Western Ideology of God being an old man sitting on a thrown somewhere floating around in space.

Donovan J Arnold



 

>From: "Luke"
>To: "Ted Moffett"
>CC: "vision2020"
>Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Re: Religious Diversity Education
>Date: Thu, 5 Jun 2003 21:50:50 -0700
>
>Hello, Mr. Moffet:
>
> > The words "under God" I believe were added to the pledge of allegiance in
> > 1954, I'm pretty sure. Check on this!
>
>
>Well, that simply goes to show my point even more. Those words were added rather recently, and they can be taken right out again easily.
>
>
> Why do you say it does not matter? Even assuming your claim that
> > the science classes teach there is no God, I think it reasonable to assume
> > that many sincere students and teachers of many faiths regard the reference
> > to "under God" in the pledge to be of great significance for their faith,
> > and the overall moral and spiritual orientation of the public schools as
> > they serve society.
>
> Maybe so for a few, but not the majority of the students. The reason I say it doesn't matter is that the philosophical implications of neo-Darwinism reduce us to mere organisms striving to survive, intaking energy, placed on earth by mere chance. Just like all the other creatures. In fact, since we're just more fully evolved animals, the logical conclusion from this is that we live like animals.
> When is the last time you saw a squirrel give a skunk, or a cat, or another squirrel some nuts out of kindness? The ramifications of evolution are self-centered lifestyles. That is why I say it does not matter whether some highschool kid, taught that he's the new and improved ape, says "one nation under God" once, or twice, or 5 times a week.
>
>
>To attempt an answer to your "God and evil" dilemma:
>God has the power to do anything, but another attribute of God is His perfect righteousness. Therefore, He never sins, yet is capable of all things. He allowed man to sin so that He could glorify Himself and make man more glorious than he already was. It's like allowing a silver vase to get dirty so you can clean it and put on polish, and make it far more shiny and beautiful than before.
>
>God did not create evil, He created man as capable of evil. Evil exists as the opposite of God. You cannot have light without darkness, which is simply the absence of light; the same thing applies to God's goodness.
>
>For every single question that man can make, there is a true answer. And everyone cannot be right. On a trigonometry test, there can be a hard question with only one correct answer. Many students may come up with the wrong answer, and have their own proofs etc to back it up too yet; however, there is still only one answer. And when you know you have the right answer, you don't have to try to solve the problem any longer or consider other solutions.
>
>
>
>Best,
>Luke Nieuwsma

STOP MORE SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* From rforce@moscow.com Fri Jun 6 20:27:12 2003 From: rforce@moscow.com (Ron Force) Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2003 12:27:12 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] Speaking of squirrels In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Sorry, I've been out of town and was not here to reveal the truth about these "pleasant citizens" in time to cure your misconceptions: http://www.scarysquirrel.org/page1.html ******************************************** Ron Force rforce@moscow.com Moscow Idaho USA ******************************************** > -----Original Message----- > From: vision2020-admin@moscow.com [mailto:vision2020-admin@moscow.com]On > Behalf Of Carl Westberg > Sent: Tuesday, May 27, 2003 12:39 PM > To: mushroom@moscow.com; vision2020@moscow.com > Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Speaking of squirrels > > > Lest anyone misconstrue my comments as being in any way > anti-squirrel or as > to suggest they don't have a right to live in peaceful > co-existence with the > non-squirrels among us, rest assured that is not the case. I > find them to > be most pleasant citizens of our diverse community, if sometimes a little > squirrely. > > > > From ted_moffett@hotmail.com Fri Jun 6 21:11:27 2003 From: ted_moffett@hotmail.com (Ted Moffett) Date: Fri, 06 Jun 2003 20:11:27 +0000 Subject: [Vision2020] Re: Religious Diversity Education Message-ID: Luke et.al. A quick reply on one point: the "Problem of Evil" is well known and studied and the solutions you offer are a bit glib. God allowed man to sin so that he could glorify himself and make man more glorious? What am I missing here? If he allows man to sin, and could stop this sin, is not God partly responsible for the sin, and therefore no longer all Good? Like if I knew some terrorists were going to blow up a building, I heard them plan it and saw them load explosives, but I did nothing to stop them, people would hold me responsible for not taking action. And further, if God is all powerful, why not just make man as glorious as possible from the start and skip the existence of evil in any form? If God is all powerful and all good and he could stop evil why would he allow it? Your answer to the "Problem of Evil" suggests you have not really thought it through. Though considering my blunders lately I too show evidence of this syndrome. Ted >From: "Luke" >To: "Ted Moffett" >CC: "vision2020" >Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Re: Religious Diversity Education >Date: Thu, 5 Jun 2003 21:50:50 -0700 > >Hello, Mr. Moffet: > > > The words "under God" I believe were added to the pledge of allegiance >in > > 1954, I'm pretty sure. Check on this! > > >Well, that simply goes to show my point even more. Those words were added >rather recently, and they can be taken right out again easily. > > > Why do you say it does not matter? Even assuming your claim that > > the science classes teach there is no God, I think it reasonable to >assume > > that many sincere students and teachers of many faiths regard the >reference > > to "under God" in the pledge to be of great significance for their >faith, > > and the overall moral and spiritual orientation of the public schools as > > they serve society. > > Maybe so for a few, but not the majority of the students. The reason I >say it doesn't matter is that the philosophical implications of >neo-Darwinism reduce us to mere organisms striving to survive, intaking >energy, placed on earth by mere chance. Just like all the other creatures. >In fact, since we're just more fully evolved animals, the logical >conclusion from this is that we live like animals. > When is the last time you saw a squirrel give a skunk, or a cat, or >another squirrel some nuts out of kindness? The ramifications of evolution >are self-centered lifestyles. That is why I say it does not matter whether >some highschool kid, taught that he's the new and improved ape, says "one >nation under God" once, or twice, or 5 times a week. > > >To attempt an answer to your "God and evil" dilemma: >God has the power to do anything, but another attribute of God is His >perfect righteousness. Therefore, He never sins, yet is capable of all >things. He allowed man to sin so that He could glorify Himself and make man >more glorious than he already was. It's like allowing a silver vase to get >dirty so you can clean it and put on polish, and make it far more shiny and >beautiful than before. > >God did not create evil, He created man as capable of evil. Evil exists as >the opposite of God. You cannot have light without darkness, which is >simply the absence of light; the same thing applies to God's goodness. > >For every single question that man can make, there is a true answer. And >everyone cannot be right. On a trigonometry test, there can be a hard >question with only one correct answer. Many students may come up with the >wrong answer, and have their own proofs etc to back it up too yet; however, >there is still only one answer. And when you know you have the right >answer, you don't have to try to solve the problem any longer or consider >other solutions. > > > >Best, >Luke Nieuwsma _________________________________________________________________ Add photos to your e-mail with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail From vision2020@moscow.com Sat Jun 7 21:17:57 2003 From: vision2020@moscow.com (vision2020@moscow.com) Date: Sat, 07 Jun 03 20:17:57 GMT Subject: [Vision2020] ANAMARIA'S pics wqzh Message-ID: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --687B62B25.0F..8A3C...3.B Content-Type: text/html Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Curious bocc@lists.fsr.com ??



SHHHHHHHHHHH!

Cease-contact%RANDOM_W= ORD vhcj knv waroifybe fwb zwqvtfc --687B62B25.0F..8A3C...3.B-- From skalasz@ci.moscow.id.us Sat Jun 7 22:53:36 2003 From: skalasz@ci.moscow.id.us (Stephanie Kalasz) Date: Sat, 7 Jun 2003 14:53:36 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] Monday Agendas Message-ID: <93812436F60FD511A83A0002B3029EFC73149C@DCFS01> This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_000_01C32D3F.3F1842D0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C32D3F.3F1842D0" ------_=_NextPart_001_01C32D3F.3F1842D0 Content-Type: text/plain Please note that the Admin and PW/Finance meetings have been cancelled due to a joint Council workshop. Stephanie Kalasz Administrative Secretary/Interim City Clerk City of Moscow, Idaho (208) 883-7080 PLEASE NOTE THERE WILL BE NO ADMINISTRATIVE COMMITTEE MEETING MONDAY, JUNE 9, 2003 THE NEXT SCHEDULED MEETING WILL BE MONDAY, 4:00 P.M. JUNE 16, 2003. IN THE MOSCOW CITY HALL COUNCIL CHAMBERS 206 EAST 3rd STREET, 2nd FLOOR CITY OF MOSCOW PUBLIC WORKS/FINANCE COMMITTEE NO MEETING NOTICE THERE WILL BE NO PUBLIC WORKS/FINANCE COMMITTEE MEETING MONDAY, JUNE 9, 2003 THE NEXT SCHEDULED PUBLIC WORKS/FINANCE COMMITTEE WILL BE MONDAY, JUNE 16, 2003, AT 5:00 P.M. IN THE CITY HALL COUNCIL CHAMBERS AGENDA MOSCOW CITY COUNCIL WORKSHOP MEETING Monday, June 9, 2003 4:00 p.m. City Hall Council Chambers - 206 East Third Street; Second Floor ************************************************************************ OPENING COMMENTS - Marshall Comstock 1. Critical Groundwater Management Discussion - Mark Cook Mark Solomon has requested time before the City Council to discuss the potential of designating the Palouse aquifer as a critical groundwater management area. Staff has met with Mr. Solomon and discussed the ramifications of such a designation. Areas of concern include conservation actions and long term planning and requested moratorium on new water service connections. ACTION: Accept report and direct staff to explore opportunities for water conservation or take such other action deemed appropriate. 2. Certificates of Participation for Construction of Hamilton Indoor Recreation Center - Don Palmer Jack McLaughlin, DA Davidson, will present a discussion of Certificates of Participation as a financing vehicle for the Hamilton Indoor Recreation Center. At the time the construction contract was approved by City Council, the Council also passed a resolution reserving the right to utilize COPs as a method of financing. Mr. McLaughlin will present an analysis based upon current interest rates and the financial markets. If viable, utilizing COPs would allow the City to preserve a substantial amount of the Hamilton Fund for future projects. ACTION: Accept report from Jack McLaughlin and direct staff accordingly or take such other action deemed appropriate. NOTICE: Individuals attending the meeting who require special assistance to accommodate physical, hearing, or other impairments, please contact the City Clerk, at (208) 883-7015, as soon as possible so that arrangements may be made. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C32D3F.3F1842D0 Content-Type: text/html Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Please note that the Admin and = PW/Finance meetings have been cancelled due to a = joint Council workshop.

 

=

Stephanie Kalasz

Administrative Secretary/Interim City Clerk

City of Moscow, Idaho

(208) 883-7080

 

=

PLEASE NOTE = THERE WILL BE

 

NO ADMINISTRATIVE COMMITTEE MEETING

 

MONDAY, JUNE 9, = 2003

 

 

 

THE NEXT = SCHEDULED MEETING WILL BE

 

MONDAY, = 4:00 P.M. JUNE 16, 2003.

 

IN THE = MOSCOW = CITY = HALL COUNCIL = CHAMBERS

 

206 EAST = 3rd      STREET, 2nd =  FLOOR

 

 

=

 

=

 

=

 

=

CITY OF = MOSCOW

 

PUBLIC WORKS/FINANCE = COMMITTEE

 
NO MEETING = NOTICE

 

 

THERE WILL BE NO PUBLIC WORKS/FINANCE =
COMMITTEE = MEETING

MONDAY, JUNE 9, = 2003

 

 

THE NEXT SCHEDULED PUBLIC WORKS/FINANCE =
COMMITTEE WILL = BE

MONDAY, JUNE 16, = 2003, AT = 5:00 P.M.

IN THE CITY = HALL COUNCIL CHAMBERS

 

=

 

 

=

AGENDA

MOSCOW CITY = COUNCIL

WORKSHOP MEETING

 

Monday, June 9, 2003       &nb= sp;           &nb= sp;           &nb= sp;           &nb= sp;               =             =                    4:00 = p.m.

 

City Hall Council Chambers = - 206 East Third = Street; Second Floor

****************************= ********************************************

OPENING COMMENTS - Marshall = Comstock

 

1. Critical Groundwater Management Discussion - Mark = Cook

Mark Solomon has requested time before the = City Council to discuss the potential of designating the Palouse aquifer as = a critical groundwater management area.  Staff has met with Mr. = Solomon and discussed the ramifications of such a designation.  Areas of = concern include conservation actions and long term planning and requested = moratorium on new water service connections.

 

ACTION: = Accept report and direct staff to explore opportunities for water conservation or take = such other action deemed appropriate.

 

 

2. = Certificates of Participation for Construction of = Hamilton= Indoor = Recreation = Center - Don Palmer =

     Jack McLaughlin, DA Davidson, will present a discussion of Certificates = of Participation as a financing vehicle for the = Hamilton = Indoor = Recreation = Center.  At the time the = construction contract was approved by City Council, the Council also passed a = resolution reserving the right to utilize COPs as a method of financing.  Mr. McLaughlin will present an analysis based upon current interest rates = and the financial markets.  If viable, utilizing COPs would allow the City = to preserve a substantial amount of the Hamilton Fund for future = projects.

 

     ACTION: Accept report from Jack McLaughlin and direct staff accordingly = or take such other action deemed appropriate.

 

 

=

 

NOTICE:  Individuals attending the = meeting who require special assistance to accommodate physical, hearing, or other impairments, please contact the City Clerk, at (208) 883-7015, as soon = as possible so that arrangements may be made.

 

=
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AAAADAAAAPwAAAACAAAA5AQAAB4AAAAPAAAAQ2l0eSBvZiBNb3Njb3cAAAMAAAA9CQAAAwAAAAsA AAADAAAAAwAAAAMAAABUBgAAAwAAAK0NCgALAAAAAAAAAAsAAAAAAAAACwAAAAAAAAALAAAAAAAA AB4QAAABAAAAGAAAAGNvdW5jaWwgYWdlbmRhIC0gbWFzdGVyAAwQAAACAAAAHgAAAAYAAABUaXRs ZQADAAAAAQAAAAAAfAEAAAcAAAAAAAAAQAAAAAEAAAD0AAAAAAAAgPwAAAA= ------_=_NextPart_000_01C32D3F.3F1842D0-- From donovanarnold@hotmail.com Mon Jun 9 08:26:44 2003 From: donovanarnold@hotmail.com (Donovan Arnold) Date: Mon, 09 Jun 2003 00:26:44 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] "I See Stupid People Everywhere!" Message-ID:

I am starting to believe Dale in this statements that the US educational system is breaking down.

I found this site on accident, www.whitehouse.org. It is a spoof on www.whitehouse.gov. It makes fun of W. Bush and his administration. It is blatantly obvious to any normal person that it is not real. Yet if you go the feedback page at www.whitehouse.org/feedback of email submissions it is full of people writing and thinking that the site is "real" and they have gone to the White House home page www.whitehouse.gov. While I think the webpage itself has some tasteless articles, some of it is funny, but the hilarious part is reading the emails of people responding to the content of the site. There is also emails asking thinking they are really writting the president and asking for things like putting up a higher fence to keep Mexicans out of the country, and people that are extremely anti-jewish and ! speak like they are a member of the Nazi Party. Anyway, check the site out, at least the feed back portion, you will find good entertainment if you can get past the fact that there are so many stupid people in this country.

Donovan J Arnold


MSN 8 helps ELIMINATE E-MAIL VIRUSES. Get 2 months FREE*. From jack@wsu.edu Mon Jun 9 08:50:26 2003 From: jack@wsu.edu (Van Deventer, Jack) Date: Mon, 9 Jun 2003 00:50:26 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] "I See Stupid People Everywhere!" Message-ID: <98444CB31FE6BD4F969495E78B94DDB329C6F4@mail.cbe.wsu.edu> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C32E5B.CA0DE54A Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Oh my, Donovan is quite right. I found the feedback at = http://www.whitehouse.org/feedback/15.asp. Jack Van Deventer =20 =20 -----Original Message----- From: Donovan Arnold [mailto:donovanarnold@hotmail.com]=20 Sent: Sunday, June 08, 2003 11:27 PM To: lukenieuwsma@softhome.net; ted_moffett@hotmail.com Cc: vision2020@moscow.com Subject: [Vision2020] "I See Stupid People Everywhere!" =20 I am starting to believe Dale in this statements that the US educational = system is breaking down. I found this site on accident, www.whitehouse.org = . It is a spoof on www.whitehouse.gov = . It makes fun of W. Bush and his = administration. It is blatantly obvious to any normal person that it is = not real. Yet if you go the feedback page at www.whitehouse.org/feedback = of email submissions it is full of people writing and thinking that the = site is "real" and they have gone to the White House home page = www.whitehouse.gov . While I think the = webpage itself has some tasteless articles, some of it is funny, but the = hilarious part is reading the emails of people responding to the content = of the site. There is also emails asking thinking they are really = writting the president and asking for things like putting up a higher = fence to keep Mexicans out of the country, and people that are extremely = anti-jewish and ! speak like they are a member of the Nazi Party. = Anyway, check the site out, at least the feed back portion, you will = find good entertainment if you can get past the fact that there are so = many stupid people in this country. Donovan J Arnold _____ =20 MSN 8 helps ELIMINATE E-MAIL VIRUSES. = Get 2 months FREE*. _____________________________________________________ List services made = available by First Step Internet, serving the communities of the Palouse = since 1994. http://www.fsr.net mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com = =AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF= =AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF= =AF=AF=AF ------_=_NextPart_001_01C32E5B.CA0DE54A Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Oh my, Donovan is quite right.=A0 = I found the feedback at http://www.whitehouse.= org/feedback/15.asp.

Jack Van = Deventer

 

 

-----Original = Message-----
From: Donovan Arnold [mailto:donovanarnold@hotmail.com]
Sent: Sunday, June 08, 2003 11:27 = PM
To: = lukenieuwsma@softhome.net; ted_moffett@hotmail.com
Cc: = vision2020@moscow.com
Subject: [Vision2020] = "I See Stupid People Everywhere!"

 

I am starting to believe Dale in this = statements that the US educational system is breaking down.

I found this site on accident, www.whitehouse.org. It is a = spoof on www.whitehouse.gov. It makes fun = of W. Bush and his administration. It is blatantly obvious to any normal = person that it is not real. Yet if you go the feedback page at www.whitehouse.org/feedback of email submissions it is full of people writing and thinking that the = site is "real" and they have gone to the White House home page www.whitehouse.gov. While I = think the webpage itself has some tasteless articles, some of it is funny, but the hilarious part is reading the emails of people responding to the content = of the site. There is also emails asking thinking they are really writting the president and asking for things like putting up a higher fence to keep = Mexicans out of the country, and people that are extremely anti-jewish and ! = speak like they are a member of the Nazi Party. Anyway, check the site out, at = least the feed back portion, you will find good entertainment if you can get past the fact that there are so many stupid people in this = country.

Donovan J = Arnold


MSN 8 helps ELIMINATE E-MAIL VIRUSES. = Get 2 months FREE*.

_____________________________________________________ List services made available by First Step Internet,=20 serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994. =20 http://www.fsr.net =20 mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com =AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF= =AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF= =AF=AF=AF=00 ------_=_NextPart_001_01C32E5B.CA0DE54A-- From thansen@moscow.com Mon Jun 9 13:45:25 2003 From: thansen@moscow.com (Tom Hansen) Date: Mon, 9 Jun 2003 05:45:25 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] "I See Stupid People Everywhere!" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: It may also be suggested that these e-mails, that are referred to below, are not genuine. It is understood that the website was designed to poke fun at George W and the White House, so why not some bogus e-mails? Tom Hansen -----Original Message----- From: vision2020-admin@moscow.com [mailto:vision2020-admin@moscow.com]On Behalf Of Donovan Arnold Sent: Monday, June 09, 2003 12:27 AM To: lukenieuwsma@softhome.net; ted_moffett@hotmail.com Cc: vision2020@moscow.com Subject: [Vision2020] "I See Stupid People Everywhere!" I am starting to believe Dale in this statements that the US educational system is breaking down. I found this site on accident, www.whitehouse.org. It is a spoof on www.whitehouse.gov. It makes fun of W. Bush and his administration. It is blatantly obvious to any normal person that it is not real. Yet if you go the feedback page at www.whitehouse.org/feedback of email submissions it is full of people writing and thinking that the site is "real" and they have gone to the White House home page www.whitehouse.gov. While I think the webpage itself has some tasteless articles, some of it is funny, but the hilarious part is reading the emails of people responding to the content of the site. There is also emails asking thinking they are really writting the president and asking for things like putting up a higher fence to keep Mexicans out of the country, and people that are extremely anti-jewish and ! speak like they are a member of the Nazi Party. Anyway, check the site out, at least the feed back portion, you will find good entertainment if you can get past the fact that there are so many stupid people in this country. Donovan J Arnold MSN 8 helps ELIMINATE E-MAIL VIRUSES. Get 2 months FREE*. _____________________________________________________ List services made available by First Step Internet, serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994. http://www.fsr.net mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ From donovanarnold@hotmail.com Mon Jun 9 14:06:36 2003 From: donovanarnold@hotmail.com (Donovan Arnold) Date: Mon, 09 Jun 2003 06:06:36 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] "I See Stupid People Everywhere!" Message-ID:

Tom,

That might be true, however it is unlikely for the following reasons:

1) It makes liberals look as stupid as conservatives. This would not make sense to someone pro-liberal or democrat.

2) It includes foreigners. Why would someone what to include this when it is irrelevant to the Presidential election.

3) There are so many of them. Why not just put 30 or 40.

4) It is close to the www.whitehouse.gov site. So it makes sense some people would mistake the two sites.

5) Many of the emails don't have anything to with the site. Why place emails that don't have anything to do with the site.

6) Many of the misspelled words are misspelled differently in different emails.

7) If you read enough of them, then you would realize it would take a huge amount of work and intelligence to come up all the variations that they put into the website.

8) Some of the people on the site did realize it was a parody site, while others did not. Seems like it would all one or the other if it was fake.

Donovan J Arnold

 

Donovan J Arnold

>From: "Tom Hansen"
>Reply-To:
>To: "Donovan Arnold" , ,
>CC:
>Subject: RE: [Vision2020] "I See Stupid People Everywhere!"
>Date: Mon, 9 Jun 2003 05:45:25 -0700
>
>It may also be suggested that these e-mails, that are referred to below, are
>not genuine. It is understood that the website was designed to poke fun at
>George W and the White House, so why not some bogus e-mails?
>
>Tom Hansen
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: vision2020-admin@moscow.com [mailto:vision2020-admin@moscow.com]On
>Behalf Of Donovan Arnold
>Sent: Monday, June 09, 2003 12:27 AM
>To: lukenieuwsma@softhome.net; ted_moffett@hotmail.com
>Cc: vision2020@moscow.com
>Subject: [Vision2020] "I See Stupid People Everywhere!"
>
>
>I am starting to believe Dale in this statements that the US educational
>system is breaking down.
>I found this site on accident, www.whitehouse.org. It is a spoof on
>www.whitehouse.gov. It makes fun of W. Bush and his administration. It is
>blatantly obvious to any normal person that it is not real. Yet if you go
>the feedback page at www.whitehouse.org/feedback of email submissions it is
>full of people writing and thinking that the site is "real" and they have
>gone to the White House home page www.whitehouse.gov. While I think the
>webpage itself has some tasteless articles, some of it is funny, but the
>hilarious part is reading the emails of people responding to the content of
>the site. There is also emails asking thinking they are really writting the
>president and asking for things like putting up a higher fence to keep
>Mexicans out of the country, and people that are extremely anti-jewish and !
>speak like they are a member of the Nazi Party. Anyway, check the site out,
>at least the feed back portion, you will find good entertainment if you can
>get past the fact that there are so many stupid people in this country.
>Donovan J Arnold
>
>
>
>
>
>MSN 8 helps ELIMINATE E-MAIL VIRUSES. Get 2 months FREE*.
>_____________________________________________________ List services made
>available by First Step Internet, serving the communities of the Palouse
>since 1994. http://www.fsr.net mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com
>ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ
>

Help STOP SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* From JoeH@turbonet.com Mon Jun 9 14:07:28 2003 From: JoeH@turbonet.com (Joe Huffman) Date: Mon, 9 Jun 2003 06:07:28 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] "I See Stupid People Everywhere!" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <003201c32e88$141cd650$6501a8c0@Voyager> I haven't read the "Whitehouse" email yet, but I can assure you all the email at this site was received by me and not made up for your entertainment: http://www.boomershoot.org/general/BombHelp.htm -joe- ---- http://www.joehuffman.org http://www.modernballistics.com http://www.boomershoot.org mailto:JoeH@joehuffman.org mailto:phone@joehuffman.org (Cell phone text message 110 chars max) -----Original Message----- From: vision2020-admin@moscow.com [mailto:vision2020-admin@moscow.com] On Behalf Of Tom Hansen Sent: Monday, June 09, 2003 5:45 AM To: Donovan Arnold; lukenieuwsma@softhome.net; ted_moffett@hotmail.com Cc: vision2020@moscow.com Subject: RE: [Vision2020] "I See Stupid People Everywhere!" It may also be suggested that these e-mails, that are referred to below, are not genuine. It is understood that the website was designed to poke fun at George W and the White House, so why not some bogus e-mails? Tom Hansen -----Original Message----- From: vision2020-admin@moscow.com [mailto:vision2020-admin@moscow.com]On Behalf Of Donovan Arnold Sent: Monday, June 09, 2003 12:27 AM To: lukenieuwsma@softhome.net; ted_moffett@hotmail.com Cc: vision2020@moscow.com Subject: [Vision2020] "I See Stupid People Everywhere!" I am starting to believe Dale in this statements that the US educational system is breaking down. I found this site on accident, www.whitehouse.org. It is a spoof on www.whitehouse.gov. It makes fun of W. Bush and his administration. It is blatantly obvious to any normal person that it is not real. Yet if you go the feedback page at www.whitehouse.org/feedback of email submissions it is full of people writing and thinking that the site is "real" and they have gone to the White House home page www.whitehouse.gov. While I think the webpage itself has some tasteless articles, some of it is funny, but the hilarious part is reading the emails of people responding to the content of the site. There is also emails asking thinking they are really writting the president and asking for things like putting up a higher fence to keep Mexicans out of the country, and people that are extremely anti-jewish and ! speak like they are a member of the Nazi Party. Anyway, check the site out, at least the feed back portion, you will find good entertainment if you can get past the fact that there are so many stupid people in this country. Donovan J Arnold MSN 8 helps ELIMINATE E-MAIL VIRUSES. Get 2 months FREE*. _____________________________________________________ List services made available by First Step Internet, serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994. http://www.fsr.net mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ _____________________________________________________ List services made available by First Step Internet, serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994. http://www.fsr.net mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ From thansen@moscow.com Mon Jun 9 14:16:23 2003 From: thansen@moscow.com (Tom Hansen) Date: Mon, 9 Jun 2003 06:16:23 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] "I See Stupid People Everywhere!" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: The answer, Mr. Arnold, is quite simple. Just like I had stated earlier: The website is a joke. If somebody were "shallow" enough to believe that the e-mails are genuine, as the song goes "I have some ocean-front property in Arizona I would like to seel you." Tom Hansen From thansen@moscow.com Mon Jun 9 14:44:45 2003 From: thansen@moscow.com (Tom Hansen) Date: Mon, 9 Jun 2003 06:44:45 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] "I See Stupid People Everywhere!" In-Reply-To: <003201c32e88$141cd650$6501a8c0@Voyager> Message-ID: Mr. Huffman - I have sent generic e-mail (an e-mail simply rquesting a reply) to: RRRR@mexborough.doncaster.sch.uk ABCDEF@mexborough.doncaster.sch.uk BBBB@mexborough.doncaster.sch.uk JJJJ@aol.com SS8@aol.com dXXXX@yahoo.com XXXX@freemail.hu These are all of the e-mail addresses (minus yours) reflected in the website: http://www.boomershoot.org/general/BombHelp.htm I received immediate replies. All seven responses were identical to: ABCDEF@mexborough.doncaster.sch.uk on Mon, 9 Jun 2003 14:30:51 +0100 The recipient name is not recognized The MTS-ID of the original message is: c=gb;a= ;p=mexborough compr;l=MEX_NTSERVER0306091330L7DST33B MSEXCH:IMS:Mexborough Comprehensive School:MEX_DOMAIN:MEX_NTSERVER 0 (000C05A6) Unknown Recipient Could this be because the e-mail addresses were bogus?? Tom Hansen From JoeH@turbonet.com Mon Jun 9 15:19:11 2003 From: JoeH@turbonet.com (Joe Huffman) Date: Mon, 9 Jun 2003 07:19:11 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] "I See Stupid People Everywhere!" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <004901c32e92$18f99aa0$6501a8c0@Voyager> As stated in the third paragraph on the web page: ---- In all cases I have disguised the email address (and the email itself to a minor extent) enough that people won't be immediately recognizable or contactable. ---- -joe- ---- http://www.joehuffman.org http://www.modernballistics.com http://www.boomershoot.org mailto:JoeH@joehuffman.org mailto:phone@joehuffman.org (Cell phone text message 110 chars max) -----Original Message----- From: vision2020-admin@moscow.com [mailto:vision2020-admin@moscow.com] On Behalf Of Tom Hansen Sent: Monday, June 09, 2003 6:45 AM To: Joe Huffman; vision2020@moscow.com Subject: RE: [Vision2020] "I See Stupid People Everywhere!" Mr. Huffman - I have sent generic e-mail (an e-mail simply rquesting a reply) to: RRRR@mexborough.doncaster.sch.uk ABCDEF@mexborough.doncaster.sch.uk BBBB@mexborough.doncaster.sch.uk JJJJ@aol.com SS8@aol.com dXXXX@yahoo.com XXXX@freemail.hu These are all of the e-mail addresses (minus yours) reflected in the website: http://www.boomershoot.org/general/BombHelp.htm I received immediate replies. All seven responses were identical to: ABCDEF@mexborough.doncaster.sch.uk on Mon, 9 Jun 2003 14:30:51 +0100 The recipient name is not recognized The MTS-ID of the original message is: c=gb;a= ;p=mexborough compr;l=MEX_NTSERVER0306091330L7DST33B MSEXCH:IMS:Mexborough Comprehensive School:MEX_DOMAIN:MEX_NTSERVER 0 (000C05A6) Unknown Recipient Could this be because the e-mail addresses were bogus?? Tom Hansen _____________________________________________________ List services made available by First Step Internet, serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994. http://www.fsr.net mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ From jon@n-k-ins.com Mon Jun 9 16:40:36 2003 From: jon@n-k-ins.com (Jon Kimberling) Date: Mon, 9 Jun 2003 08:40:36 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] City Council Workshop on HIRC Message-ID: <008f01c32e9d$790ffd20$0da8a8c0@JON> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_008C_01C32E62.CC7CA7A0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable The normal City Council committee meetings have been cancelled today so = that the Council can attend a workshop. The meeting is in Council = Chambers and begins at 4 pm. The second agenda item is entitled = "Certificates of Participation for Construction of Hamilton Indoor = Recreation Center(HIRC)". Jack McLauglin from DA Davidson will make a = presentation about Certificates of Participation as a method to finance = the HIRC. The goal of the COP is to preserve a substantial amount of = Hamilton Funds for future projects that benefit our kids. If you are = unable to attend and have questions, feel free to contact me. Jon Kimberling City Council ------=_NextPart_000_008C_01C32E62.CC7CA7A0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
The normal City Council committee = meetings have=20 been cancelled today so that the Council can attend a workshop. The = meeting is=20 in Council Chambers and begins at 4 pm. The second agenda item is = entitled=20 "Certificates of Participation for Construction of Hamilton Indoor = Recreation=20 Center(HIRC)".  Jack McLauglin from DA Davidson will make a = presentation=20 about Certificates of Participation as a method to finance the HIRC. The = goal of=20 the COP is to preserve a substantial amount of Hamilton Funds for future = projects that benefit our kids.  If you are unable to attend and = have=20 questions, feel free to contact me.
 
Jon Kimberling
City Council
------=_NextPart_000_008C_01C32E62.CC7CA7A0-- From jon@n-k-ins.com Mon Jun 9 16:44:30 2003 From: jon@n-k-ins.com (Jon Kimberling) Date: Mon, 9 Jun 2003 08:44:30 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] Sustainable Growth Message-ID: <009c01c32e9e$04209320$0da8a8c0@JON> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0099_01C32E63.57994B90 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable SUSTAINABLE GROWTH IS SMART GROWTH FOR MOSCOW A recent Op-Ed piece (Bill London, Daily News, June 4th, "Smart Growth, = Not Dumb Growth, for Moscow"), criticizes the recent efforts of the City = of Moscow, Latah County, Latah Economic Development Council, Moscow = School District, University of Idaho, Gritman Medical Center and the = Moscow Chamber of Commerce in developing a collaborative approach for = future economic development in Moscow and Latah County. Our working = assumption is to collaborate in pursuing common economic development = goals and together help build and maintain a successful economy for our = community. Along with this however, is a continued emphasis on managing = the growth through sound, realistic, and community-based land use = planning. =20 Sustainable land use planning and collaborative growth management will = help us provide greater certainty and predictability about where, when, = and how much development will occur in our community; how it will be = serviced, as well as the type and style of development. Lacking a = strategic economic development plan creates unpredictability about = future growth and development of a community, and often leads to costly = struggles that pit local governments, developers and concerned citizens = against each other. Successful sustainable planning will produce = community consensus, political strength, sound development, manageable = public infrastructure, and effective stewardship and protection of the = resources. This is what we all want - smart, sustainable growth. No = one ever stands up at a Planning and Zoning Commission meeting and = argues for "dumb" growth. =20 Moscow is an attractive, livable community which we all value for the = many of the same reasons. We live here because it offers a high quality = of life that affords us the ability to raise our families and conduct = our businesses without the threat of crime, congestion or exorbitant = taxes. By properly planning for growth and economic development, we can = maintain our character and appearance - that makes us distinctive and = creates a high degree of civic pride. People are attracted to = communities like Moscow for this very reason; we care about managing our = resources whether its water, farmland or downtown. =20 Our attractiveness will not go unnoticed however. People will seek to = move to places that value their communities and protect their resources = and their economies. Communities active in promoting economic = development will be more attractive if they equally value and protect = their resources and manage how new growth is addressed. We must also be = mindful of the degree of regulations and costs associated with = developing and maintaining a business here in Moscow. Regulations must = be compatible with the need to earn a profit and provide a sustainable, = realistic business environment. Healthy communities are those that = recognize the balance between these two equally important priorities. = Growth needs to occur carefully, guided by considerations of property = tax impacts, burdens on public infrastructure and community values. =20 Our attempt to help forge a vision for future economic development is = not occurring in a vacuum or with a wanton disregard for community = values. We are all mindful of our community, its strengths and assets. = However, we are also mindful of the perception of outsiders that Moscow = is perceived as "anti-business". We will continue to fight this notion. = All of this will factor into any economic development plan we create and = will include an active, healthy dialogue with all facets of our = community. We all agree that there is a clear need to improve dialogue = between stakeholders and enhance collaborations so that economic = development efforts are strategic, consistent, effective and well = designed. A strategic economic development plan is needed to guide such = efforts.=20 =20 There continues to be broad support for the commitment the City has made = toward developing such a plan. On behalf of the Board of Directors of = the Moscow Chamber of Commerce, I want to thank the City for the = commitment they have made and we believe these efforts will produce long = term, sustainable benefits for our community.=20 =20 =20 =20 Jon Kimberling, President Moscow Chamber of Commerce =20 =20 =20 ------=_NextPart_000_0099_01C32E63.57994B90 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

SUSTAINABLE GROWTH=20 IS SMART GROWTH FOR MOSCOW

A recent=20 Op-Ed piece (Bill London, Daily News, June 4th, =93Smart = Growth, Not=20 Dumb Growth, for Moscow=94), criticizes the recent efforts of the City = of Moscow,=20 Latah County, Latah Economic Development Council, Moscow School = District,=20 University of Idaho, Gritman Medical Center and the Moscow Chamber of = Commerce=20 in developing a collaborative approach for future economic development = in Moscow=20 and Latah County.  Our = working=20 assumption is to collaborate in pursuing common economic development = goals and=20 together help build and maintain a successful economy for our = community.  Along with this however, is a = continued=20 emphasis on managing the growth through sound, realistic, and = community-based=20 land use planning.

 

Sustainable=20 land use planning and collaborative growth management will help us = provide=20 greater certainty and predictability about where, when, and how much = development=20 will occur in our community; how it will be serviced, as well as the = type and=20 style of development.  = Lacking a=20 strategic economic development plan creates unpredictability about = future growth=20 and development of a community, and often leads to costly struggles that = pit=20 local governments, developers and concerned citizens against each = other.  Successful sustainable = planning will=20 produce community consensus, political strength, sound development, = manageable=20 public infrastructure, and effective stewardship and protection of the=20 resources.   This is = what we=20 all want =96 smart, sustainable growth. =20 No one ever stands up at a Planning and Zoning Commission meeting = and=20 argues for =93dumb=94 growth.

 

Moscow is an=20 attractive, livable community which we all value for the many of the = same=20 reasons.  We live here = because it=20 offers a high quality of life that affords us the ability to raise our = families=20 and conduct our businesses without the threat of crime, congestion or = exorbitant=20 taxes.  By properly = planning for=20 growth and economic development, we can maintain our character and = appearance =96=20 that makes us distinctive and creates a high degree of civic pride.  People are attracted to = communities like=20 Moscow for this very reason; we care about managing our resources = whether its=20 water, farmland or downtown.

 

Our=20 attractiveness will not go unnoticed however.  People will seek to move to = places that=20 value their communities and protect their resources and their = economies.  Communities active in = promoting economic=20 development will be more attractive if they equally value and protect = their=20 resources and manage how new growth is addressed.  We must also be mindful of the = degree of=20 regulations and costs associated with developing and maintaining a = business here=20 in Moscow.  Regulations = must be=20 compatible with the need to earn a profit and provide a sustainable, = realistic=20 business environment.  = Healthy=20 communities are those that recognize the balance between these two = equally=20 important priorities.  = Growth needs=20 to occur carefully, guided by considerations of property tax impacts, = burdens on=20 public infrastructure and community values.

 

Our attempt=20 to help forge a vision for future economic development is not occurring = in a=20 vacuum or with a wanton disregard for community values.  We are all mindful of our = community, its=20 strengths and assets. However, we are also mindful of the perception of=20 outsiders that Moscow is perceived as =93anti-business=94. We will = continue to fight=20 this notion. All of this will factor into any economic development plan = we=20 create and will include an active, healthy dialogue with all facets of = our=20 community.  We all agree = that there=20 is a clear need to improve dialogue between stakeholders and enhance=20 collaborations so that economic development efforts are strategic, = consistent,=20 effective and well designed. A strategic economic development plan is = needed to=20 guide such efforts.

 

There=20 continues to be broad support for the commitment the City has made = toward=20 developing such a plan. On behalf of the Board of Directors of the = Moscow=20 Chamber of Commerce, I want to thank the City for the commitment they = have made=20 and we believe these efforts will produce long term, sustainable = benefits for=20 our community.

 

 

 

Jon=20 Kimberling, President

Moscow=20 Chamber of Commerce  =20

 

 

------=_NextPart_000_0099_01C32E63.57994B90-- From london@moscow.com Mon Jun 9 18:38:33 2003 From: london@moscow.com (Bill London) Date: Mon, 09 Jun 2003 10:38:33 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] Sustainable Growth References: <009c01c32e9e$04209320$0da8a8c0@JON> Message-ID: <3EE4C618.608AAF15@moscow.com> --------------8F7BB90C1373936A606D8CB6 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit First, my thanks to Jon Kimberling for taking the time to respond on these issues to Vision 2020. I appreciate the kind of dialog he is supporting. Second, I honestly believe Jon when he writes that his focus is on the best for Moscow. He does not want to destroy Moscow for a quick buck, and does not want to see dumb growth here in his hometown. However, I believe that dumb growth could result from the rule-changing that follows the alliance between city government and economic development interests that we are now seeing in Moscow. It could happen here, as people search for livable communities and keep moving here, and as large employers are enticed here. If the planning/zoning rules were changed, we could be drowning in more and more development. Remember that, as Jon writes in his second paragraph below: "No one ever stands up at a Planning and Zoning Commission meeting and argues for “dumb” growth." Of course not. Not even the greediest developer would say that. Dumb growth, like what has happened to Post Falls/Coeur d'Alene, happened because of the cumulative effect of a number of planning and zoning decisions that created opportunities that developers took advantage of. And once the doors opened, legally there was not much the community could do to protect itself. Everybody can keep talking about sustainable growth and all the other cute buzzwords, but what counts is the protections (through zoning and planning) the community has in place. Trusting the city administration and the chamber of commerce to do the right thing is not enough. A case in point: When Alturas was initially under consideration, I attended three public meetings in which everyone vowed that Alturas was going to use tax money for one purpose and one purpose alone--to create an appealing research park environment to keep high-tech businesses in Moscow. I trusted the city to do that, and I supported it. Now, I feel like we all got burned, since the city has now shifted Alturas into a tax-supported office park, allowing various attorneys, accountants, and now a day care center to move there from downtown. My guess is that nobody wanted that to happen at the inception, but through a series of errors and legalese exceptions, it did. Nobody wants dumb growth, but if the citizens do not care enough to say no at the beginning of the process, it will happen. BL Jon Kimberling wrote: > SUSTAINABLE GROWTH IS SMART GROWTH FOR MOSCOW > > A recent Op-Ed piece (Bill London, Daily News, June 4th, “Smart > Growth, Not Dumb Growth, for Moscow”), criticizes the recent efforts > of the City of Moscow, Latah County, Latah Economic Development > Council, Moscow School District, University of Idaho, Gritman Medical > Center and the Moscow Chamber of Commerce in developing a > collaborative approach for future economic development in Moscow and > Latah County.Our working assumption is to collaborate in pursuing > common economic development goals and together help build and maintain > a successful economy for our community.Along with this however, is a > continued emphasis on managing the growth through sound, realistic, > and community-based land use planning. > > "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /> > > Sustainable land use planning and collaborative growth management will > help us provide greater certainty and predictability about where, > when, and how much development will occur in our community; how it > will be serviced, as well as the type and style of development.Lacking > a strategic economic development plan creates unpredictability about > future growth and development of a community, and often leads to > costly struggles that pit local governments, developers and concerned > citizens against each other.Successful sustainable planning will > produce community consensus, political strength, sound development, > manageable public infrastructure, and effective stewardship and > protection of the resources.This is what we all want – smart, > sustainable growth.No one ever stands up at a Planning and Zoning > Commission meeting and argues for “dumb” growth. > > Moscow is an attractive, livable community which we all value for the > many of the same reasons.We live here because it offers a high quality > of life that affords us the ability to raise our families and conduct > our businesses without the threat of crime, congestion or exorbitant > taxes.By properly planning for growth and economic development, we can > maintain our character and appearance – that makes us distinctive and > creates a high degree of civic pride.People are attracted to > communities like Moscow for this very reason; we care about managing > our resources whether its water, farmland or downtown. > > Our attractiveness will not go unnoticed however.People will seek to > move to places that value their communities and protect their > resources and their economies.Communities active in promoting economic > development will be more attractive if they equally value and protect > their resources and manage how new growth is addressed.We must also be > mindful of the degree of regulations and costs associated with > developing and maintaining a business here in Moscow.Regulations must > be compatible with the need to earn a profit and provide a > sustainable, realistic business environment.Healthy communities are > those that recognize the balance between these two equally important > priorities.Growth needs to occur carefully, guided by considerations > of property tax impacts, burdens on public infrastructure and > community values. > > Our attempt to help forge a vision for future economic development is > not occurring in a vacuum or with a wanton disregard for community > values.We are all mindful of our community, its strengths and assets. > However, we are also mindful of the perception of outsiders that > Moscow is perceived as “anti-business”. We will continue to fight this > notion. All of this will factor into any economic development plan we > create and will include an active, healthy dialogue with all facets of > our community.We all agree that there is a clear need to improve > dialogue between stakeholders and enhance collaborations so that > economic development efforts are strategic, consistent, effective and > well designed. A strategic economic development plan is needed to > guide such efforts. > > There continues to be broad support for the commitment the City has > made toward developing such a plan. On behalf of the Board of > Directors of the Moscow Chamber of Commerce, I want to thank the City > for the commitment they have made and we believe these efforts will > produce long term, sustainable benefits for our community. > > Jon Kimberling, President > > Moscow Chamber of Commerce > --------------8F7BB90C1373936A606D8CB6 Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit     First, my thanks to Jon Kimberling for taking the time to respond on these issues to Vision 2020.  I appreciate the kind of dialog he is supporting.
    Second, I honestly believe Jon when he writes that his focus is on the best for Moscow.  He does not want to destroy Moscow for a quick buck, and does not want to see dumb growth here in his hometown.
    However, I believe that dumb growth could result from the rule-changing that  follows the alliance between city government and economic development interests that we are now seeing in Moscow.
    It could happen here, as people search for livable communities and keep moving here, and as large employers are enticed here.  If the planning/zoning rules were changed, we could be drowning in more and more development.
    Remember that, as Jon writes in his second paragraph below: "No one ever stands up at a Planning and Zoning Commission meeting and argues for “dumb” growth."
    Of course not.  Not even the greediest developer would say that.  Dumb growth, like what has happened to Post Falls/Coeur d'Alene, happened because of the cumulative effect of a number of planning and zoning decisions that created opportunities that developers took advantage of.  And once the doors opened, legally there was not much the community could do to protect itself.
    Everybody can keep talking about sustainable growth and all the other cute buzzwords, but what counts is the protections (through zoning and planning) the community has in place.  Trusting the city administration and the chamber of commerce to do the right thing is not enough.
    A case in point: When Alturas was initially under consideration, I attended three public meetings in which everyone vowed that Alturas was going to use tax money for one purpose and one purpose alone--to create an appealing research park environment to keep high-tech businesses in Moscow.  I trusted the city to do that, and I supported it.  Now, I feel like we all got burned, since the city has now shifted Alturas into a tax-supported office park, allowing various attorneys, accountants, and now a day care center to move there from downtown.  My guess is that nobody wanted that to happen at the inception, but through a series of errors and legalese exceptions, it did.
    Nobody wants dumb growth, but if the citizens do not care enough to say no at the beginning of the process, it will happen.
    BL
 

Jon Kimberling wrote:

SUSTAINABLE GROWTH IS SMART GROWTH FOR MOSCOW

A recent Op-Ed piece (Bill London, Daily News, June 4th, “Smart Growth, Not Dumb Growth, for Moscow”), criticizes the recent efforts of the City of Moscow, Latah County, Latah Economic Development Council, Moscow School District, University of Idaho, Gritman Medical Center and the Moscow Chamber of Commerce in developing a collaborative approach for future economic development in Moscow and Latah County.Our working assumption is to collaborate in pursuing common economic development goals and together help build and maintain a successful economy for our community.Along with this however, is a continued emphasis on managing the growth through sound, realistic, and community-based land use planning.

<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" />

Sustainable land use planning and collaborative growth management will help us provide greater certainty and predictability about where, when, and how much development will occur in our community; how it will be serviced, as well as the type and style of development.Lacking a strategic economic development plan creates unpredictability about future growth and development of a community, and often leads to costly struggles that pit local governments, developers and concerned citizens against each other.Successful sustainable planning will produce community consensus, political strength, sound development, manageable public infrastructure, and effective stewardship and protection of the resources.This is what we all want – smart, sustainable growth.No one ever stands up at a Planning and Zoning Commission meeting and argues for “dumb” growth.

Moscow is an attractive, livable community which we all value for the many of the same reasons.We live here because it offers a high quality of life that affords us the ability to raise our families and conduct our businesses without the threat of crime, congestion or exorbitant taxes.By properly planning for growth and economic development, we can maintain our character and appearance – that makes us distinctive and creates a high degree of civic pride.People are attracted to communities like Moscow for this very reason; we care about managing our resources whether its water, farmland or downtown.

Our attractiveness will not go unnoticed however.People will seek to move to places that value their communities and protect their resources and their economies.Communities active in promoting economic development will be more attractive if they equally value and protect their resources and manage how new growth is addressed.We must also be mindful of the degree of regulations and costs associated with developing and maintaining a business here in Moscow.Regulations must be compatible with the need to earn a profit and provide a sustainable, realistic business environment.Healthy communities are those that recognize the balance between these two equally important priorities.Growth needs to occur carefully, guided by considerations of property tax impacts, burdens on public infrastructure and community values.

Our attempt to help forge a vision for future economic development is not occurring in a vacuum or with a wanton disregard for community values.We are all mindful of our community, its strengths and assets. However, we are also mindful of the perception of outsiders that Moscow is perceived as “anti-business”. We will continue to fight this notion. All of this will factor into any economic development plan we create and will include an active, healthy dialogue with all facets of our community.We all agree that there is a clear need to improve dialogue between stakeholders and enhance collaborations so that economic development efforts are strategic, consistent, effective and well designed. A strategic economic development plan is needed to guide such efforts.

There continues to be broad support for the commitment the City has made toward developing such a plan. On behalf of the Board of Directors of the Moscow Chamber of Commerce, I want to thank the City for the commitment they have made and we believe these efforts will produce long term, sustainable benefits for our community.

Jon Kimberling, President

Moscow Chamber of Commerce

--------------8F7BB90C1373936A606D8CB6-- From scooke@uidaho.edu Mon Jun 9 20:53:56 2003 From: scooke@uidaho.edu (Stephen Cooke) Date: Mon, 09 Jun 2003 12:53:56 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] On-line small business newsletter Message-ID: FYI Steve Cooke Subject: On-line small business newsletter Colleagues: Let's Talk Business is a newsletter put out by the Center for Community Economic Development here at UW-Extension that some of you may find of interest. Please feel free to share with as many who might be interested as possible. http://www.uwex.edu/ces/cced/publicat/letstalk.html ********************************************************************** Steven C. Deller Professor and Community Development Economist Department of Agricultural and Applied Economics 521 Taylor Hall -- 427 Lorch St. University of Wisconsin-Madison Madison, WI 53706 608-263-6251 608-262-4376 (fax) deller@aae.wisc.edu "I think, therefore I am, I think." George Carlin From ted_moffett@hotmail.com Tue Jun 10 00:38:13 2003 From: ted_moffett@hotmail.com (Ted Moffett) Date: Mon, 09 Jun 2003 23:38:13 +0000 Subject: [Vision2020] Sustainable Growth Message-ID: Bill et. al. Anyone who has lived in Moscow for decades can attest to the reduction in the quality of life in downtown Moscow in terms of traffic congestion and air quality. A friend of mine who lived in Moscow 30 years ago, and has recently returned, noticed how bad the air has become in downtown Moscow during rush hour. You don't need the EPA to figure this out. Your nose and lungs tell you plainly. Well, we are told this is the price of progress! Along with all the armored tanks, um, I mean SUVs, now appearing in greater numbers on Moscow's streets, adding their contribution to the "progress" towards fresh air and lessening dependence on foreign oil. Anyways, as you stated, the devil is in the details (my wording) of the planning and zoning laws and regulations, etc. If they are changed to be more "business friendly" (what a cheery sounding phrase!) rather than "anti-growth" (bad, bad anti-growth people!) in a manner disregarding or downplaying other values of quality of life, developers will take advantage of this as certainly as air, um, I mean, exhaust, fills a vacuum! Ted _________________________________________________________________ Add photos to your messages with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail From thansen@moscow.com Tue Jun 10 00:57:04 2003 From: thansen@moscow.com (Tom Hansen) Date: Mon, 9 Jun 2003 16:57:04 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] Sustainable Growth In-Reply-To: Message-ID: And your solution, Mr. Moffett, is . . . ? Tom Hansen > -----Original Message----- > From: vision2020-admin@moscow.com [mailto:vision2020-admin@moscow.com]On > Behalf Of Ted Moffett > Sent: Monday, June 09, 2003 4:38 PM > To: london@moscow.com > Cc: vision2020@moscow.com > Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Sustainable Growth > > > > Bill et. al. > > Anyone who has lived in Moscow for decades can attest to the reduction in > the quality of life in downtown Moscow in terms of traffic congestion and > air quality. A friend of mine who lived in Moscow 30 years ago, and has > recently returned, noticed how bad the air has become in downtown Moscow > during rush hour. You don't need the EPA to figure this out. > Your nose and > lungs tell you plainly. > > Well, we are told this is the price of progress! Along with all > the armored > tanks, um, I mean SUVs, now appearing in greater numbers on Moscow's > streets, adding their contribution to the "progress" towards > fresh air and > lessening dependence on foreign oil. > > Anyways, as you stated, the devil is in the details (my wording) of the > planning and zoning laws and regulations, etc. If they are changed to be > more "business friendly" (what a cheery sounding phrase!) rather than > "anti-growth" (bad, bad anti-growth people!) in a manner disregarding or > downplaying other values of quality of life, developers will take > advantage > of this as certainly as air, um, I mean, exhaust, fills a vacuum! > > Ted > > _________________________________________________________________ > Add photos to your messages with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. > http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail > > _____________________________________________________ > List services made available by First Step Internet, > serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994. > http://www.fsr.net > mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com > ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ > From ted_moffett@hotmail.com Tue Jun 10 01:40:09 2003 From: ted_moffett@hotmail.com (Ted Moffett) Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2003 00:40:09 +0000 Subject: [Vision2020] Sustainable Growth Message-ID: Tom: I have supported, through attempts to contact legislators, an effort to dramatically increase the fuel efficiency requirements for the US fleet of automobiles and trucks. The current political/business climate in the USA of course renders such an idea unpopular. And of course the personal choices people make to buy gas guzzling polluting vehicles are hard to influence. In terms of Moscow's growth, and the impact on traffic congestion and air quality, the sale of farmland and/or re-zoning of this land for development, should perhaps be evaluated more in terms of how the new residents of these outlying areas will add to traffic etc. But I admit I have not been much of a local activist to directly influence the legal machinations of development in Moscow or Latah County. These are questions of value judgments over which there is obviously much disagreement. I am a walker, runner and bicyclist, when weather allows, sometimes even when it doesn't, so I often see cars and trucks and SUVs as a blight on the landscape, noisy and air polluting devices that people could often avoid using to the betterment of their health, and the enjoyment of the city, by riding a bike to work, class or to pick up some groceries, etc. One spring and summer I commuted on my bike 20 miles a day to work and back home, for four months straight, putting in over 2000 miles. At least for that summer, you had my solution. The solution could start with each person's behavior libertarian style, rather than trying to legislate a solution, though sometimes laws are what is required. That is why I am not totally a libertarian, though I like the political philosophy of libertarianism. Ted >From: "Tom Hansen" >Reply-To: >To: "Ted Moffett" , >CC: >Subject: RE: [Vision2020] Sustainable Growth >Date: Mon, 9 Jun 2003 16:57:04 -0700 > >And your solution, Mr. Moffett, is . . . ? > >Tom Hansen > > > _________________________________________________________________ STOP MORE SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From stopchristchurch@yahoo.com Tue Jun 10 01:57:13 2003 From: stopchristchurch@yahoo.com (Nicholas Van Orton) Date: Mon, 9 Jun 2003 17:57:13 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Vision2020] Comstock, Wilson, Kimmel: STOP THE CORRUPTION! Message-ID: <20030610005713.63604.qmail@web20501.mail.yahoo.com> --0-1099229383-1055206633=:63432 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Comstock, Wilson, Kimmel: STOP THE CORRUPTION! --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Free online calendar with sync to Outlook(TM). --0-1099229383-1055206633=:63432 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Comstock, Wilson, Kimmel: STOP THE CORRUPTION!

Do you Yahoo!?
Free online calendar with sync to Outlook(TM). --0-1099229383-1055206633=:63432-- From thansen@moscow.com Tue Jun 10 02:28:24 2003 From: thansen@moscow.com (Tom Hansen) Date: Mon, 9 Jun 2003 18:28:24 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] Comstock, Wilson, Kimmel: STOP THE CORRUPTION! In-Reply-To: <20030610005713.63604.qmail@web20501.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Gee. This is a tough one. Who else uses the e-mail address stopchristchurch@yahoo.com? Could They be one-in-the-same person? I think so. Tom Hansen -----Original Message----- From: vision2020-admin@moscow.com [mailto:vision2020-admin@moscow.com]On Behalf Of Nicholas Van Orton Sent: Monday, June 09, 2003 5:57 PM To: vision2020@moscow.com Subject: [Vision2020] Comstock, Wilson, Kimmel: STOP THE CORRUPTION! Comstock, Wilson, Kimmel: STOP THE CORRUPTION! Do you Yahoo!? Free online calendar with sync to Outlook(TM). From stopchristchurch@yahoo.com Tue Jun 10 02:35:56 2003 From: stopchristchurch@yahoo.com (A Doubting Thomas) Date: Mon, 9 Jun 2003 18:35:56 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Vision2020] CORRUPTION ALERT: STOP KIMMEL; STOP WILSON; STOP COMSTOCK!! Message-ID: <20030610013556.89898.qmail@web20509.mail.yahoo.com> --0-1462579657-1055208956=:89216 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Free online calendar with sync to Outlook(TM). --0-1462579657-1055208956=:89216 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii

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Free online calendar with sync to Outlook(TM). --0-1462579657-1055208956=:89216-- From stopchristchurch@yahoo.com Tue Jun 10 02:38:30 2003 From: stopchristchurch@yahoo.com (London's Burnt Bridges) Date: Mon, 9 Jun 2003 18:38:30 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Vision2020] I HEREBY DENOUNCE THE MOSCOW CIVIC ASSOCIATION!! Message-ID: <20030610013830.94491.qmail@web20508.mail.yahoo.com> --0-2068893062-1055209110=:94435 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Free online calendar with sync to Outlook(TM). --0-2068893062-1055209110=:94435 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii

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Free online calendar with sync to Outlook(TM). --0-2068893062-1055209110=:94435-- From storlar@turbonet.com Tue Jun 10 02:45:12 2003 From: storlar@turbonet.com (storlar@turbonet.com) Date: Mon, 9 Jun 2003 21:45:12 -0400 Subject: [Vision2020] Comstock, Wilson, Kimmel: STOP THE CORRUPTION! Message-ID: <265000-22003621014512543@M2W045.mail2web.com> hum, cracks me up! how many AKA's does this guy have??????? Original Message: ----------------- From: Nicholas Van Orton stopchristchurch@yahoo.com Date: Mon, 9 Jun 2003 17:57:13 -0700 (PDT) To: vision2020@moscow.com Subject: [Vision2020] Comstock, Wilson, Kimmel: STOP THE CORRUPTION! Comstock, Wilson, Kimmel: STOP THE CORRUPTION! --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Free online calendar with sync to Outlook(TM). -------------------------------------------------------------------- mail2web - Check your email from the web at http://mail2web.com/ . From lukenieuwsma@softhome.net Tue Jun 10 04:22:24 2003 From: lukenieuwsma@softhome.net (Luke) Date: Mon, 9 Jun 2003 20:22:24 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] Re: Religious Diversity Education References: Message-ID: <007c01c32eff$b8b120a0$2f00a8c0@MOBILELUKE> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0064_01C32EC4.D6CA8490 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello, Mr. Arnold: >If the western world conception of God is so correct, and the Bible has = all the anwers >then humor me with the answer to these questions? What you're doing is using a logical fallacy called contradictory terms. = It's like saying, "Can God make something black without it being black?" = It doesn't prove anything except that it's possible for people to = contradict themselves. In regard to your shot at God, He is infinite, not some lost old geezer = sitting up in space wringing His hands because things are going so bad = in the universe. Best, Luke Nieuwsma ------=_NextPart_000_0064_01C32EC4.D6CA8490 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hello, Mr.=20 Arnold:
 
 
 
>If the western world conception of God is so correct, and the = Bible has=20 all the anwers >then humor me with the answer to these = questions?
 
What you're doing is using a logical = fallacy called=20 contradictory terms. It's like saying, "Can God make something black = without it=20 being black?" It doesn't prove anything except that it's possible for = people to=20 contradict themselves.
 
In regard to your shot at God, He is = infinite, not=20 some lost old geezer sitting up in space wringing His hands because = things are=20 going so bad in the universe.
 
Best,
Luke = Nieuwsma
------=_NextPart_000_0064_01C32EC4.D6CA8490-- From lukenieuwsma@softhome.net Tue Jun 10 02:54:13 2003 From: lukenieuwsma@softhome.net (Luke) Date: Mon, 9 Jun 2003 18:54:13 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] Religious Diversity Education References: Message-ID: <007b01c32eff$b7f857f0$2f00a8c0@MOBILELUKE> Hello, Mr. Arnold: >Hitler was thrown into jail for his political activism. Therefore, to say that a book he >wrote after the time he choose to enter the arena of politics makes this as evidence of >his "true thoughts" argument mute. Even if Hitler didn't believe what he told Germany (which he did), the Germans did. They really believed that they had become the superior race, and this is Darwinism applied to politics and society. The idea of the highest race came about simultaneously with biological Darwinism. And what did it bring us? 40-50 million dead throughout the world. > Other churches pick some guy up off the street that completed bible study, ordain >him, and he says whatever he thinks to the church followers. Not a good idea. I agree. And that is not what the denominations I have been in have done. >The Catholic Church is centered around the teachings of Christ. Mainly the four >gospels of Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John, but also other books of the Bible like the >Letters to the Romans. It emphasizes the sacraments as a way to build a personal >relationship with Christ, such as communion and reconciliation. Also, all Catholic >Churches have the same Mass all over the world, with the exception of the Hominy. Maybe modern Catholicism has swerved to this position, but the Catholics of the Medieval Ages thru the 1800's centered liturgy and belief around the priests, Rome, and particularly the Pope. Why do you think the greatest R.C. cathedral is named after Peter? >You must first be holy then preach holiness. You can't be >the most wicked and cause >the most damage and then say "we are holy follow us!" >This does not work, sorry. >You shall know them by the fruit they bare. There is no country that officially professes Christianity at the moment, so you have no fruit to judge. > However, I don't think you are trained enough to read it as >it is suppose to be read >just as you can't pick up a copy of the Bible and say >"Christians believe in the bible, >the Bible says to stone anyone that commits adult[ery], I >am going to go stone my >neighbor so I can please God!" Actually, if everyone did that, the problem would disappear rather quickly. In regard to your rather extensive attack on Christianity and its history, none of those events were done by an exclusively Christian nation, by a country which nation-wide reads the Bible, goes to church, and lives like Christ died for it. So no, it is not Christianity being lived out, and no, I am not clueless of these events. What you did in effect was to point to every major event in the last 1000 years that involved bloodshed, and to blame them all on the Christians. That's not the same thing as showing what Christianity is like when you live it out. As I stated above, there are no openly and officially Christian nations today, but there are openly and officially Muslim nations today, and they're known as the Middle East. >Perhaps if you stopped talking for bit, and listen, you would find out that god loves >other people besides the wealthiest, fattest, greediest, murderous, white people that >have a special need to interfere with the internal affairs and customs of people around >the world that just trying to eek of an existence for themselves and their families. Why so much bitterness? It doesn't sound like there is a lot of love in your life. >Or is the only people saved living in a little church in Idaho or >Washington with less >then 2000 followers as you presume? Like Hello! Are >you for real Luke? You still try to dodge absolute truth when you say "Oh, they're all saying the same thing," because they're not. They cannot all be true at once; they all have their own moral values, their own ceremonies, their own exclusive truths. Anyone who believes the gospel will be saved, both in and out of Moscow. But that doesn't include false religions. Only one key will open the lock on the door of salvation. You can make or buy all the keys you want, but only one will open it. Sincerely and respectfully, Luke Nieuwsma From billk@moscow.com Tue Jun 10 05:15:01 2003 From: billk@moscow.com (Bill Kerr) Date: Mon, 09 Jun 2003 21:15:01 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] Comstock, Wilson, Kimmel: STOP THE CORRUPTION! In-Reply-To: References: <20030610005713.63604.qmail@web20501.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20030609211406.009f8a60@mail.moscow.com> Looks like somebody must have lost his Scrabble board, or maybe he had no takers on the Scrabble club. At 06:28 PM 06/09/2003 -0700, Tom Hansen wrote: >Gee. This is a tough one. Who else uses the e-mail address >stopchristchurch@yahoo.com? > >Could They be one-in-the-same person? I think so. > >Tom Hansen > >-----Original Message----- >From: vision2020-admin@moscow.com [mailto:vision2020-admin@moscow.com]On >Behalf Of Nicholas Van Orton >Sent: Monday, June 09, 2003 5:57 PM >To: vision2020@moscow.com >Subject: [Vision2020] Comstock, Wilson, Kimmel: STOP THE CORRUPTION! > > >Comstock, Wilson, Kimmel: STOP THE CORRUPTION! > > >Do you Yahoo!? >Free online calendar with sync to Outlook(TM). > >_____________________________________________________ > List services made available by First Step Internet, > serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994. > http://www.fsr.net > mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com >ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ Bill Kerr billk@moscow.com billk@drseuss.lib.uidaho.edu From lukenieuwsma@softhome.net Tue Jun 10 05:25:14 2003 From: lukenieuwsma@softhome.net (Luke) Date: Mon, 9 Jun 2003 21:25:14 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] Re: Religious Diversity Education References: Message-ID: <010201c32f08$c34f3de0$2f00a8c0@MOBILELUKE> Mr. Moffett: > A quick reply on one point: the "Problem of Evil" is well known and studied > and the solutions you offer are a bit glib. God allowed man to sin so that > he could glorify himself and make man more glorious? What am I missing > here? If he allows man to sin, and could stop this sin, is not God partly > responsible for the sin, and therefore no longer all Good? Not at all. Like I said, evil exists as simply the opposite of good. It's like turning on a light bulb in a room; the moment the light is on, darkness exists as wherever the light isn't. If you take the light out of the room, there is instant blackness without it being the light's fault. God draws straight with crooked lines, working His will even through those who rebel against Him. > And further, if God is all powerful, why not just make man as glorious as > possible from the start and skip the existence of evil in any form? Frankly, I cannot answer that question. I don't know the full mind and reasoning of God, and neither can you or anyone. Many things are revealed to us in the Scriptures, but not all. It may be that the way He chose would bring Him more glory than any other way, but we can't know that. What we do know is that God is perfect, and all men are born in sin, and that there is a sacrifice for the guilt that the sin brings, the death of Christ. But it is not for us sinners to question God's motives. They are just. Cheers, Luke From Cjsnightclub@aol.com Tue Jun 10 05:42:52 2003 From: Cjsnightclub@aol.com (Cjsnightclub@aol.com) Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2003 00:42:52 EDT Subject: [Vision2020] Re: Religious Diversity Education Message-ID: <79.12d8fb01.2c16bbcc@aol.com> --part1_79.12d8fb01.2c16bbcc_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Since God is The Creator, and we all agree on that, since He created all things, did He not create all first original thought? Phil Roderick --part1_79.12d8fb01.2c16bbcc_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Since God is The Creator, and we all agree on that, si= nce He created all things, did He not create all first original thought?

Phil Roderick --part1_79.12d8fb01.2c16bbcc_boundary-- From donovanarnold@hotmail.com Tue Jun 10 08:03:04 2003 From: donovanarnold@hotmail.com (Donovan Arnold) Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2003 00:03:04 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] Religious Diversity Education Message-ID:

Hi Luke,
 

"They really believed that they had become the superior race,
>and this is Darwinism applied to politics and society. The idea of the highest race came about simultaneously with biological Darwinism."

First, they didn't believe they BECAME the superior race, they thought they always were.

Second, the idea of a group of people being a superior race existed long before that of "social or biological Darwinism."  Social Darwinism was a justification and explanation, not a cause. The Egyptians and Romans believed that they were superior as well. If you read the Bible like you said you did you would know the Jews were treated as an inferior race in the Egyptian Empire and were enslaved. You would also know that racism existed between the Hebrews and the Gentiles in Christ's time as well. The Japanese during the time of WWII were also under the delusion that they were superior to all other races as well. The were not at all connected to Western theology and beliefs. Racism has been around since the beginning of time and still exists today. > >

>"Maybe modern Catholicism has swerved to this position, but the Catholics
>of the Medieval Ages thru the 1800's centered liturgy and belief around the
>priests, Rome, and particularly the Pope. Why do you think the greatest R.C. cathedral is named after Peter?"

Well, maybe if we were in the 1800's or before then you would be right, however, what year are we in now? 

"There is no country that officially professes Christianity at the moment, so

>you have no fruit to judge."

First, You are wrong there. The Vatican professes Christianity, and is the official religion of the City, and is a recognized, independent and sovereign country.

Second, the official church of England is the Church of England, which also professes Christianity.

Third, my position was not what nation officially recognized but what nation who's majority practiced it. 

>
>
>
>"You still try to dodge absolute truth when you say "Oh, they're all
>saying the same thing," because they're not. They cannot all be true at
>once; they all have their own moral values, their own ceremonies, their own exclusive truths."

If two people see a house, one from the back, and one from the front. Then they describe the house to each other and they disagree, who is right and who is wrong? You think you know all sides and everything about God? I claim you don't, and that others are describing the same God from different points of view. Muslims, Jews, and Christians, all worship the God of Abraham, the God of David, the God the Moses. You better respect that fact, and not be so self righteous. That is if you mind paying the price in this world and the next for causing other to doubt their faith in the one true God. We are all going to disagree on laws, rules, regulations, which is the better prophet, how to worship, and how often, but then again, didn't Christ's death place us above that law?

Thanks!

Donovan J Arnold

>

The new MSN 8: smart spam protection and 2 months FREE* From carlwestberg846@hotmail.com Tue Jun 10 15:24:05 2003 From: carlwestberg846@hotmail.com (Carl Westberg) Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2003 07:24:05 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] Comstock, Wilson, Kimmel: STOP THE CORRUPTION! Message-ID: I was looking forward to playing Scrabble, though. I wonder how many points I would have gotten for hepaticocholangiocholecystenterostomies? I've never managed to get enough squares to use that word. Carl Westberg Jr. >From: Bill Kerr >To: >Subject: RE: [Vision2020] Comstock, Wilson, Kimmel: STOP THE CORRUPTION! >Date: Mon, 09 Jun 2003 21:15:01 -0700 > >Looks like somebody must have lost his Scrabble board, or maybe he had no >takers on the Scrabble club. > >At 06:28 PM 06/09/2003 -0700, Tom Hansen wrote: >>Gee. This is a tough one. Who else uses the e-mail address >>stopchristchurch@yahoo.com? >> >>Could They be one-in-the-same person? I think so. >> >>Tom Hansen >> >>-----Original Message----- >>From: vision2020-admin@moscow.com [mailto:vision2020-admin@moscow.com]On >>Behalf Of Nicholas Van Orton >>Sent: Monday, June 09, 2003 5:57 PM >>To: vision2020@moscow.com >>Subject: [Vision2020] Comstock, Wilson, Kimmel: STOP THE CORRUPTION! >> >> >>Comstock, Wilson, Kimmel: STOP THE CORRUPTION! >> >> >>Do you Yahoo!? >>Free online calendar with sync to Outlook(TM). >> >>_____________________________________________________ >> List services made available by First Step Internet, >> serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994. >> http://www.fsr.net >> mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com >>ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ > >Bill Kerr >billk@moscow.com >billk@drseuss.lib.uidaho.edu > > >_____________________________________________________ >List services made available by First Step Internet, serving the >communities of the Palouse since 1994. http://www.fsr.net > mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com >ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ _________________________________________________________________ STOP MORE SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From stopchristchurch@yahoo.com Tue Jun 10 18:04:31 2003 From: stopchristchurch@yahoo.com (Verily "White") Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2003 10:04:31 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Vision2020] I PROMISE TO STOP SLANDERING OTHERS IN THE INKSTER!! Message-ID: <20030610170431.72116.qmail@web20510.mail.yahoo.com> --0-1589369638-1055264671=:71935 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Free online calendar with sync to Outlook(TM). --0-1589369638-1055264671=:71935 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii

Do you Yahoo!?
Free online calendar with sync to Outlook(TM). --0-1589369638-1055264671=:71935-- From stopchristchurch@yahoo.com Tue Jun 10 18:06:02 2003 From: stopchristchurch@yahoo.com (Nicholas Van Orton) Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2003 10:06:02 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Vision2020] Does Christ Church Pray Against People Who Leave Their "Church"? Message-ID: <20030610170602.15648.qmail@web20508.mail.yahoo.com> --0-2123739136-1055264762=:14347 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Free online calendar with sync to Outlook(TM). --0-2123739136-1055264762=:14347 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii

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Free online calendar with sync to Outlook(TM). --0-2123739136-1055264762=:14347-- From stopchristchurch@yahoo.com Tue Jun 10 18:58:33 2003 From: stopchristchurch@yahoo.com (Heil Kimmel) Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2003 10:58:33 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Vision2020] The "Puttin' On The Ritz" Auction: The Arrogance of Paul Kimmel!! Message-ID: <20030610175833.68885.qmail@web20506.mail.yahoo.com> --0-1639079753-1055267913=:68412 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Free online calendar with sync to Outlook(TM). --0-1639079753-1055267913=:68412 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii

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Free online calendar with sync to Outlook(TM). --0-1639079753-1055267913=:68412-- From stopchristchurch@yahoo.com Tue Jun 10 18:59:34 2003 From: stopchristchurch@yahoo.com (The Con-Stocks) Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2003 10:59:34 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Vision2020] We Are Swindling The Town And You All KNOW It!! Message-ID: <20030610175934.27296.qmail@web20509.mail.yahoo.com> --0-1855465240-1055267974=:25709 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Free online calendar with sync to Outlook(TM). --0-1855465240-1055267974=:25709 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii

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Free online calendar with sync to Outlook(TM). --0-1855465240-1055267974=:25709-- From stopchristchurch@yahoo.com Tue Jun 10 19:00:41 2003 From: stopchristchurch@yahoo.com (Isaiah Lyre) Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2003 11:00:41 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Vision2020] Doug Wilson Does Not Worship Satan!! Message-ID: <20030610180041.6463.qmail@web20511.mail.yahoo.com> --0-362671213-1055268041=:6425 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Free online calendar with sync to Outlook(TM). --0-362671213-1055268041=:6425 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii

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Free online calendar with sync to Outlook(TM). --0-362671213-1055268041=:6425-- From tomh@FNA.fsn.uidaho.edu Tue Jun 10 22:30:19 2003 From: tomh@FNA.fsn.uidaho.edu (Thomas Hansen) Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2003 14:30:19 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] The Perfect Husband (Humor) Message-ID: <165F697BE456F14EA4529F6B7BB6D4FC1F6F9B@daffy.dfm.uidaho.edu> THE PERFECT HUSBAND There are several men in the locker room of a private club after exercising. Suddenly a cell phone that was on one of the benches rings. A man picks it up and the following conversation ensues: "Hello?" "Honey, It's me." "Sugar!" "Are you at the club?" "Yes." "Great! I am at the mall 2 blocks from where you are. I saw a beautiful mink coat...It is absolutely gorgeous!! Can I buy it?" "What's the price?" "Only $1,500.00" "Well, OK, go ahead and get, if you like it that much..." "Ahhh and I also stopped by the Mercedes dealership and saw the 2001 models. I saw one I really liked. I spoke with the salesman and he gave me a really good price ...and since we need to exchange the BMW that we bought last year..." "What price did he quote you?" "Only $60,000..." "OK, but for that price I want it with all the options." "Great!, before we hang up, something else..." "What?" "It might look like a lot, but I was reconciling your bank account and...I stopped by the real estate agent this morning and I saw the house we had looked at last year ... it's on sale!! Remember? The one with a pool, English Garden, acre of park area, beachfront property..." "How much are they asking?" "Only $450,000... a magnificent price, and I see that we have that much in the bank to cover..." "Well, than go ahead and buy it, but just bid $420,000. OK?" "OK, sweetie... Thanks! I'll see you later!! I love you!!!" "Bye... I do too..." The man hangs up, closes the phone's flap and raises his hand while holding the phone and asks to all those present: "Does anyone know who's phone this belongs to?" From peterson@moscow.com Tue Jun 10 23:49:19 2003 From: peterson@moscow.com (peterson@moscow.com) Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2003 15:49:19 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] Moscow's choice on Sprawl Message-ID: <3EE5FDFF.3667.10B28068@localhost> Hi, I'm going to the Moscow Planning and Zoning Commission meeting on Wed. night in the City Council Chambers...why? Cause they've got sprawl on the agenda! There's an application to take 12 virgin acres out of farmland and plat it for up to 262 units of high density apts....that's MORE apts. than we already are dealing with on West A Street. The land owner is in Lewiston and he just wants to sell this land at the highest price but we're going to have to live with more students congested into the NW corner of town, on the deadend of an extension of Baker Street, funneling out onto the pathetically narrow West A Street and crossing West Pullman Road down by Wendy's without a thought on the City's part to pedestrian safety. The 12 acres in question has moving surface water with hundreds of geese in the winter who stop to bond and graze. But they're not tax payers! Hey, but I am, why doesn't my opinion matter. I don't live in Lewiston; I live in Moscow! What do you think? Can you come over to the hearing at 6:40pm on Wed. night? Pam Peterson 882-1349 From london@moscow.com Wed Jun 11 16:40:19 2003 From: london@moscow.com (Bill London) Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2003 08:40:19 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] our aquifer References: <3EC7D5CB.A120D358@moscow.com> Message-ID: <3EE74D63.C3750971@moscow.com> Moscow has another chance to live up to its responsibilities. I hope the City Council finds the courage to make the necessary hard choices. It's easy to dismiss the fact that we are mining the water in our aquifer (dropping the water level an astounding 18 inches annually). After all we can't see the aquifer. And there is still water in it. It's also easy to ignore the fact that of the major players here on the Palouse (both universities and the cities of Pullman and Moscow) only Moscow has continued to exceed its pumping targets. Moscow is the only one to violate the existing agreement by sucking more and more water from the aquifer. The time has come to stop ignoring this problem. Moscow is violating state law with its continuing water mining. The Council has continued to welcome more and more new homes with no controls on water usage. It's time for the Council to make the decisions that will effectively limit that extravagence. Whatever sacrifices we make individually are irrelevant if the rules set by the city encourage wasting of water. An article in today's (Wed June 11) Lewiston Tribune, page 4A, reminds us that other communities are facing these same issues--and setting limits on their own water use. In the Palm Springs area, landscaping ordinances require cuts of 25% in water use and rates are increasing to meet the targets those communities have set to control their water wasting. It's time for the Council to do the right thing. BL From thansen@moscow.com Wed Jun 11 17:35:25 2003 From: thansen@moscow.com (thansen@moscow.com) Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2003 16:35:25 GMT Subject: [Vision2020] Doilies (Humor) Message-ID: <200306111607.h5BG77QU068719@whale2.fsr.net> Just a little humor to clean up the air. --------------------- As a new bride, Edna moved into the small home on her husband's ranch. She put a shoe box on a shelf in her closet and asked her husband never to touch it. For fifty years Jack left the box alone, until Edna was old and dying. One day when he was putting their affairs in order, he found the box again and thought it might hold something important. Opening it, he found two doilies and $82,500 in cash. He took the box to Edna and asked about the contents. "My mother gave me that box the day we married," she explained. "She told me to make a doily to help ease my frustrations every time I got mad at you." Jack was very touched that in 50 years she'd only been mad at him twice. "What's the $82,500 for?" he asked. "Oh, that's the money I made selling the doilies." Take care, Tom Hansen SFC, US Army (Retired) UI '96 Moscow, Idaho --------------------------------------------- This message was sent by First Step Internet. http://www.fsr.net/ From agrosse@wsu.edu Wed Jun 11 23:05:30 2003 From: agrosse@wsu.edu (Ashley Grosse) Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2003 15:05:30 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] our aquifer In-Reply-To: <20030611190002.84219.29010.Mailman@whale2.fsr.net> Message-ID: Sometimes I get the uncomfortable feeling that the City Council is hostile to local democracy. Their principled refusal to respond to environmental pressure is not only amazingly shortsighted, it smacks of their complete insulation from the citizens of Moscow. The "pressure" as they identify it, comes from the citizens of Moscow. I'd like to remind the council that organized interests are made up of citizens who care enough to be good citizens and make their informed preferences known to elected leaders. Personally, I can hardly wait until election day. Ashley Grosse From carlwestberg846@hotmail.com Thu Jun 12 16:10:16 2003 From: carlwestberg846@hotmail.com (Carl Westberg) Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2003 08:10:16 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] David Brinkley Message-ID: I just heard on NPR that David Brinkley died last night. Does anyone remember when Huntley-Brinkley was only 15 minutes long, and it was regarded as a big gamble to expand a newscast to a whopping 30 minutes? Broadcasters and advertisers thought no one would want to sit through a full half hour of news. Does remembering this make me officially old? Carl Westberg Jr. _________________________________________________________________ Tired of spam? Get advanced junk mail protection with MSN 8. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From vision2020@moscow.com Thu Jun 12 16:46:43 2003 From: vision2020@moscow.com (vision2020@moscow.com) Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2003 08:46:43 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] Latah County Zoning Commission Agenda Message-ID: <000301c330f9$d6389c10$3464000a@latah.id.us> The Latah County Zoning Commission will not meet Wednesday, June 18, 2003. http://www.latah.id.us/Comm/PlanZone_Main.htm From rforce@moscow.com Thu Jun 12 17:31:45 2003 From: rforce@moscow.com (Ron Force) Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2003 09:31:45 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] David Brinkley In-Reply-To: Message-ID: CNN, CNBC and Fox News have now conclusively proved this-- 24/7, news-free. ******************************************** Ron Force rforce@moscow.com Moscow Idaho USA ******************************************** Broadcasters and advertisers thought no one would want to sit through a full > half hour of news. From johncronin@moscow.com Thu Jun 12 18:24:57 2003 From: johncronin@moscow.com (John Cronin) Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2003 10:24:57 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] lost dog Message-ID: <000a01c33107$8c9d5880$acf2f5c7@Lewis> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0007_01C330CC.DF572DC0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Our little 10 lb. Yorkshire Terrier named Gizmo left his fenced yard = this morning at 7:15am. Gizmo's hair is black with brown markings. He = lives at 415 E. Lewis. (Lewis and Adams). If you seen him, please give = us a call at 883-4825. Thanks. John ------=_NextPart_000_0007_01C330CC.DF572DC0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Our little 10 lb. Yorkshire = Terrier named=20 Gizmo left his fenced yard this morning at 7:15am.  Gizmo's hair is = black=20 with brown markings. He lives at 415 E. Lewis. (Lewis and Adams). = If you=20 seen him, please give us a call at  883-4825. Thanks.
 
John
------=_NextPart_000_0007_01C330CC.DF572DC0-- From lmelina@moscow.com Thu Jun 12 18:37:59 2003 From: lmelina@moscow.com (Lois Melina) Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2003 10:37:59 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] lost dog References: <000a01c33107$8c9d5880$acf2f5c7@Lewis> Message-ID: <001701c33109$5e813aa0$cb5bfea9@i0v6o9> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0014_01C330CE.B1716220 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable And our two yellow dogs took off yesterday while our backs were turned. = (They run loose only when we are out in the yard.) That's what we get = for treating the one dog's arthritis! They've been spotted in the past = on Randall Flat Road. We live about halfway between Moscow and Troy. One = dog has a tag, but he's chewed the collar off his fellow traveler. Please let me know if you see one or both. They usually find their way = home, but we are worried that the one dog is so arthritic that he took = off when he felt good, but will have difficulty making it home. Thanks, Lois ----- Original Message -----=20 From: John Cronin=20 To: Vision 2020=20 Sent: Thursday, June 12, 2003 10:24 AM Subject: [Vision2020] lost dog Our little 10 lb. Yorkshire Terrier named Gizmo left his fenced yard = this morning at 7:15am. Gizmo's hair is black with brown markings. He = lives at 415 E. Lewis. (Lewis and Adams). If you seen him, please give = us a call at 883-4825. Thanks. John ------=_NextPart_000_0014_01C330CE.B1716220 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
And our two yellow dogs took off = yesterday while=20 our backs were turned. (They run loose only when we are out in the = yard.) That's=20 what we get for treating the one dog's arthritis! They've been = spotted=20 in the past on Randall Flat Road. We live about halfway between Moscow = and Troy.=20 One dog has a tag, but he's chewed the collar off his fellow=20 traveler.
 
Please let me know if you see one or = both. They=20 usually find their way home, but we are worried that the one dog is so = arthritic=20 that he took off when he felt good, but will have difficulty making it=20 home.
 
Thanks,
Lois
 
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 John=20 Cronin
Sent: Thursday, June 12, 2003 = 10:24=20 AM
Subject: [Vision2020] lost = dog

Our little 10 lb. Yorkshire = Terrier named=20 Gizmo left his fenced yard this morning at 7:15am.  Gizmo's hair = is black=20 with brown markings. He lives at 415 E. Lewis. (Lewis and Adams). = If you=20 seen him, please give us a call at  883-4825. = Thanks.
 
John
------=_NextPart_000_0014_01C330CE.B1716220-- From dale@courtneys.us Thu Jun 12 19:14:25 2003 From: dale@courtneys.us (Dale Courtney) Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2003 11:14:25 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] MSD Teacher Salaries Message-ID: <008601c3310e$750c7640$c801a8c0@home> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0087_01C330D3.C8AD9E40 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Visionaries,=20 I have completed my analysis of the actual MSD teacher salaries. Here's = a quick look at the summary:=20 =20 77% of all MSD teachers are making over $40k per year. In fact, the vast majority (66%) make between $40-$50k per year range. =20 The graph above only tells part of the story. Teachers are further compensated in at least three significant ways: significant benefits, a 10-month school year, and extra pay.=20 *=09 Benefits: Teacher benefits account for an additional 28.6% of their = salary.=20 *=09 Note: in the private sector, fringe benefits are about 15.8% of salary. Teachers' benefits are significantly better than what most American's receive or can ever expect.=20 *=09 Annualized Pay: There is also an annualized compensation for the 3 = months of opportunity costs during the Summer.=20 *=09 MSD Teachers instruct 168 to 170 days per year for the salary shown = above (note: the national average is 180 teaching days per year; MSD teachers teach 10 days less than the national average).=20 *=09 Having a 10 month school year is a significant benefit. They have the opportunity to teach Summer School, go on vacations, take other = employment opportunities, etc.=20 *=09 Note 1: the average American works 240 days per year -- nearly 30 = percent more days than government school teachers for the salary shown above.=20 *=09 Note 2: to compare MSD teacher salaries to the rest of the nation's salaries, the teacher salaries must be "annualized" -- converted from a school year to a 12 month scale.=20 *=09 Extra Pay: These salary figures also don't include extra pay for = coaching sports, knowledge bowl, directing jazz band, etc.=20 *=09 This extra compensation can be significant (48% again the teacher's base salary!).=20 *=09 Note: I've not taken into consideration this "extra pay" in the = compensated calculations below. It has been next to impossible to get that data from MSD; but it is significant.=20 Because of their shorter work year and shorter workday, teachers earn = more than many other educated professionals: Figure 1 When you include the 28.6% benefits, other "opportunity costs" (teaching Summer School; other work/vacation opportunities), the corrected salary = grid looks as follows: =20 So what we really have is the following: Average MSD teacher = compensation package (including benefits, annualized salary, bonuses, etc): $63,663. And the distribution looks like this:=20 =20 Despite protestations by the NEA, neither US nor Idaho teachers are = poverty stricken. The annualized adjustment, including compensation, show that = 76% of MSD government school teachers are making between $65,000 and $90,000 = per year. Compare this to the fact that the per capita personal = income for Idaho was $25,057; for Latah County it was $21,716 (in 1991). Finally -- why is it important that we deal with teachers' salaries? = Because those salaries account for the largest portion of the government school budget. If we are to get a handle on spending, we have to deal with the largest contributor to spending -- teachers' salaries. Jack Wenders (Professor or Economics, University of Idaho) explains the effects that we see above: _____ =20 Dear Dale: Thank you for sending me your observations about Moscow School = District's (MSD) teachers' pay. It is well done. I have a few comments that may = help your readers understand what is going on here.=20 1.=09 It is important to understand how teachers' salaries are determined. MSD = has a salary grid which rewards only college degrees and credits (in eight steps) and longevity (in ten steps). Amazingly, teacher classroom performance and teaching field have nothing to do with how well a = teacher is paid. After a very short probationary period, teachers progress up the = grid automatically with longevity, even if the grid remains constant. This is = in stark contrast to how pay is determined in the private sector, and at = the university level, including UI, where there are no grids, and pay = differs by teaching field and performance. The bottom end of the 2002-03 MSD salary grid is $25,000 ($32,150 with benefits) for a first year beginning = teacher w/ a BA/BS. There are 80 cells in the grid, and the single top cell is $48,835 ($62,802 with benefits). =20 2.=09 In MSD, there are 165 teachers at or above the bottom cell in 2002-03. Seventy-four, or 44.8%, of MSD's teachers are in the single top cell--$48,835 ($62,802 with benefits). Further, 123, or 74.5%, of the teachers have topped-out in the longevity dimension of the grid and are located in the top five longevity cells (out of 180). The average salary = is $42,842 ($55,094 with benefits), and the median (83rd) salary is $44,634 ($57,399 with benefits). The range on the grid is $25k to $48.8k, but = both the mean and median are much closer to the top. In an even, or = rectangular, distribution, the mean and median salary would be about $36.9k ($47.5k = with benefits). What really stands out is the degree to which teachers are = packed at the top end of the grid. =20 3.=09 In MSD, 89.7% of the teachers making at least $25k in base salary are tenured. As I read the relevant statute [Idaho Code 33-514], teachers receive tenure after two years' probation. In most universities, tenure = is not achieved until after seven years probation, and there are many non-tenure track positions. Aside from teachers' aides, there are almost = no non-tenure track teaching positions in public education or at MSD. In my view, achieving a life-time appointment after only a couple of years is = a much too short probationary period. =20 4.=09 In MSD, 46.1% of the teachers have a MA/MS/MEd degree or more. This is actually down from 1993-94 when 61.9% of the teachers had a MA/MS/MEd = degree or more. For the state as a whole, the comparable number is 19.2% for 2002-03. (MSD's pay grid has a "BA/BS + 30 credits" step where there are quite a few teachers: 39 teachers are at the top of this step alone. = Many apparently take this route up the grid rather than the MA/MS/MEd route.) =20 5.=09 In MSD, 35.9% of the teachers are older than fifty. For the state as a whole, the comparable number is 33.0%. For both MSD and the state, this percentage has grown by over 70% in the past ten years--up 72% for MSD = and up 78% for the state as a whole. =20 6.=09 In MSD, 30.2% of the teachers had longevity over 20 years. For the state = as a whole, the comparable figure is 26.4%. Over the past ten years, for = MSD this figure has grown almost twice as fast as for the state as a = whole--up 28% as compared to up 16% for the state as a whole. =20 7.=09 The upward trend in both age and longevity is understated somewhat for = both MSD and the state since teacher numbers have been growing over the past = ten years--up 8.3% for MSD and up 15.4% for the state. =20 8.=09 What is going on here is roughly the following. Over the past decade or = so, with steep gradients in the salary grid, MSD teachers started near the bottom of the grid, attained tenure quickly, and then rode the steep longevity and education gradients to the top salary in no more than ten years. The result has been very low teacher turnover and a bloated, top-heavy, pay structure. For example, a grid that had top-pay reached = in, say, 20 longevity steps instead of 10 would have increased turnover and saved a lot of salary money over the years, without any loss in teacher performance. And teachers would have been more evenly distributed over = the pay grid. Put another way, no private business, or organization, would = have most employees at the top end of the pay scale the way MSD does. Recall = that 123, or 74.5%, of the teachers are in the top five (out of 80) longevity cells. It is all the more irrational since the criteria for pay raises--longevity and additional college credits--have almost nothing to = do with improved student performance. =20 9.=09 Regarding the longevity dimension of teacher pay. It is often argued = that teacher performance improves with experience. This is true, up to a = point. Research shows that only the first four or five years of teacher = experience has a payoff in student performance. After that, additional experience doesn't matter, and there is also evidence that some teachers burn-out = later in their careers when their performance declines. This also means that tenure is awarded well before teachers reach their potential. So tenure = is rewarded before administrators know how a teacher is going to turn out. (Again, note that tenure in universities is typically awarded only after seven years experience when much more is known about how the teacher = will turn out, and after that pay can be adjusted to reflect performance, = unlike in the public schools.) Think of how absurd it is to have tenure and pay policies where an employee at age 25 receives tenure for life with no possibility of being rewarded or penalized for good or bad performance. Where in the private sector does this happen? Tenure, in and of itself, = is not that bad. In Universities, tenured professors who go to sleep can go = for years without pay raises. Not so in public education. There, tenure in combination with an inflexible pay grid locks in and rewards teachers irrespective of performance. Such a system of pay determination is = simply irrational from the standpoint of human resource management. =20 10.=09 Regarding pedagogy education. There is a lot of evidence that shows that education courses, credits, and degrees have nothing to do with teacher performance, and thus it makes no sense to have pay determined by such factors. The most important teacher characteristics, from the standpoint = of student performance, are: brains (verbal cognitive ability), a few years experience, and a MA degree (or concentration) in one's teaching field = at the secondary level. Teachers themselves regularly cite student teaching = as the most important education course they've taken. All the rest is off = the radar screen as a determinant of student performance. Yet the way in = which teachers are rewarded has almost no connection with these = characteristics. Further, many MEd degrees are given in the field of education administration, a degree which, by design, is not relevant to classroom teaching, yet it counts on the salary grid. Almost all higher degrees in education are pursued purely to climb the salary grid, not to improve teaching--because they don't. =20 11.=09 While it is often instructive to annualize teachers' pay for the purpose = of comparing it with other kinds of performance, as you have done, in my = view the best way to get a handle on public school teachers' relative pay is = to compare it to comparable private schools' teachers' pay. This is what is commonly done in other areas of government employment where the Bureau = of Labor Statistics regularly gathers private sector pay for determining government pay for accountants, computer programmers, engineers, etc. = Note that the NEA, IEA, etc, never make comparisons with private sector = teachers' pay, for fear of what will be found. The trick used by the teachers' = unions in Idaho and elsewhere is to compare public school teachers' pay with = that of public school teachers in other states where pay is similarly bloated = and top-heavy. Since labor markets are invariably determined by local market conditions, market pay differentials within the same profession vary = widely across regions. While Idaho's teacher pay ranks about 37th among the states--this rises about 10 places when relative pension match and cost = of living are considered, Idaho's per capita personal income ranks about 43-44th among the states. Thus, relative to Idaho's regional personal incomes, Idaho's teachers on the whole are paid relatively well.)=20 When public/private teachers' pay comparisons are made, here is what = is found. Using data from the 1987-88 National Center for Educational = Statistics (NCES) Schools and Staffing survey, Ballou and Podgursky found average public and private school teacher salaries to be $26,458 and $17,434 respectively. In these data, an adjustment was made for teachers who = were members of religious orders by excluding all Catholic teachers who were never married. This shows that private salaries are on the average 65.9% = of those in public schools. Similarly, in 1993-94 another study found = private school salaries to be 64% of public school teachers'. Both these data sets ignore benefits, such as health insurance and retirement contributions, which are much higher in the public school = sector. Benefits are about 31.3% of salary in the public sector as a whole and = 15.8% in the private sector. A study for Pennsylvania found that teachers' benefits as a percentage of total salary to be 36.1%, and for comparable employees in the private sector benefits were 23%. Benefits averaged = 26.2% of salary for US public school teachers from 1994-995. Public school teachers' benefits are higher than in private schools. These observations raise the issue of the = optimal--cost-minimizing--mix of teachers. Apparently, because private schools are under competitive pressure in their retail markets, they do a better job of choosing the optimal structural mix of teachers, thus producing an average salary = well below those of public schools. Michael Podgursky has addressed the issue = of pay comparability between public and private school teachers. Using a = sample of non-sectarian, non-specialized, private schools, and controlling for = sex, experience, education level, region and rural/urban status, he found = that across longevity "pay in private schools begins at 78 percent of public schools, rises to 92 percent of public school pay by a teacher's twelfth year, and declines thereafter." Truncating the public school sample to include only suburban schools with very low poverty rates, which are comparable to private schools in general, he found that "private schools teachers now start at 76 percent of their public school counterparts. = This rises to 87 percent by their twelfth year and declines thereafter. . . . [T]he shape of the pay function [over longevity] remains the same but = simply shifts downward." The fact that private schools have a teacher turnover = and attrition rate about twice that of the public schools indicates that = private schools use both teacher "churn" and a much flatter longevity dimension = in salary structure to keep average pay down. In contrast, early tenure and = a back-loaded salary grid virtually guarantee that the public schools will have low turnover and attrition and a much higher concentration of = faculty at the top of their higher salary grid, exactly like the MSD data show. Aside from the fact that public schools pay comparable faculty more, = this structural difference adds to the higher average pay in public schools. Simply put, private schools have an inter-temporal, cost-minimizing longevity mix of teachers than the public schools, including MSD.=20 For those interested in reading further, you can look at:=20 *=09 Dale Ballou and Michael Podgursky, Teacher Pay and Teacher Quality (Kalamazoo, MI: W.E. Upjohn Institute for Employment Research, 1997), = Table 6.1, p. 131.=20 *=09 Donald H. McLaughlin and Stephen Broughman, Private Schools in the = United States: A Statistical Profile (National Center for Education Statistics: Working Paper NCES 97-459, 1997), Table 3.12, p. 93.=20 *=09 David J. Wynne and Charles W. Watters, "Teacher Compensation: How it Compares with the Private Sector" Government Union Review 12, No. 3 = (Summer 1991), Table 2, p. 39.=20 *=09 Michael Podgursky, "Fringe Benefits" Education Next, Vol 3, No. 3 = (Summer 2003), pp. 71-76. (http://www.educationnext.org/20033/71.html)=20 The bottom line is the MDS teachers' pay is both bloated and top-end loaded. This is due to two factors: (1) paying most teachers well above their private counterparts in comparable schools, and (2) having a = top-end loaded distribution of teachers. For years, the MSD school board has mismanaged both the level and structure of teachers' pay by its failure = to resist the demands of the MEA. Teachers' unions are dominated by senior members who bargain primarily for their own benefit. The flip side of = this is that beginning teachers are largely ignored by union negotiators. In = the MSD salary grid, a beginning teacher does not receive any annual raise = until the fourth year of longevity. Any way you cut it, MSD's teachers are very well paid, and there are = far too many at the very top of the salary grid.=20 I hope these comments help clarify your data and some of the = underlying issues. I would be pleased to answer any questions you might have at: jwenders@uidaho.edu.=20 Regards, Jack=20 --=20 John T. Wenders Professor of Economics, University of Idaho Senior Fellow, The Commonwealth Foundation =20 _____ =20 More things to discuss in our ongoing conversations about how to best improve education for Moscow's youth. Throwing more money at the problem certainly is not the solution.=20 Best, Dale Courtney Moscow, Idaho ------=_NextPart_000_0087_01C330D3.C8AD9E40 Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message
Visionaries,

I have completed my analysis of = the=20 actual MSD teacher salaries. Here's a quick look at the summary:=20

77% of all MSD teachers are = making over=20 $40k per year. In fact, the vast majority (66%) make between = $40-$50k per=20 year range.

The graph above only tells = part of=20 the story. Teachers are further compensated in at least three = significant ways:=20 significant benefits, a 10-month school year, and extra pay. =

  • Benefits: Teacher = benefits account=20 for an additional 28.6% of their salary.=20

    • Note: in the private = sector, fringe=20 benefits are about 15.8% of salary. Teachers' benefits are = significantly=20 better than what most American's receive or can ever expect.=20

  • Annualized Pay: There = is also an=20 annualized compensation for the 3 months of opportunity costs during = the=20 Summer.

    • MSD Teachers instruct 168 = to 170 days=20 per year for the salary shown above (note: the national average is = 180=20 teaching days per year; MSD teachers teach 10 days less than the = national=20 average).

    • Having a 10 month school = year is a=20 significant benefit. They have the opportunity to teach = Summer=20 School, go on vacations, take other employment opportunities, = etc.=20

    • Note 1: the average = American works 240=20 days per year -- nearly 30 percent more days than government school = teachers=20 for the salary shown above.

    • Note 2: to compare MSD = teacher salaries=20 to the rest of the nation's salaries, the teacher salaries must be=20 "annualized" -- converted from a school year to a 12 month = scale.=20

  • Extra Pay: These = salary figures=20 also don't include extra pay for coaching sports, knowledge bowl, = directing=20 jazz band, etc.

    • This extra compensation can = be=20 significant (48% again the teacher's base salary!).

    • Note: I've not taken = into=20 consideration this "extra pay" in the compensated calculations = below. It has=20 been next to impossible to get that data from MSD; but it is=20 significant.

Because of their shorter work = year and=20 shorter workday,  teachers earn more than many other educated=20 professionals:

When you include the 28.6% = benefits, other=20 "opportunity costs" (teaching Summer School; other work/vacation = opportunities),=20 the corrected salary grid looks as follows:

So what we really have is the = following:=20 Average MSD teacher compensation package (including benefits, annualized = salary,=20 bonuses, etc): $63,663.

And the distribution looks like = this:=20

Despite protestations by the = NEA, neither=20 US nor Idaho teachers are poverty stricken. The annualized adjustment, = including=20 compensation, show that 76% of MSD government school teachers are making = between=20 $65,000 and $90,000 per year. Compare this to the fact that the per = capita=20 personal income for Idaho was $25,057; for Latah County it was = $21,716 (in=20 1991).

Finally -- why is it important = that we deal=20 with teachers' salaries? Because those salaries account for the largest = portion=20 of the government school budget. If we are to get a handle on spending, = we have=20 to deal with the largest contributor to spending -- teachers'=20 salaries.

Jack Wenders (Professor or = Economics,=20 University of Idaho) explains the effects that we see above:

Dear Dale:

Thank you for = sending me=20 your observations about Moscow School District's (MSD) teachers' pay. It = is well=20 done. I have a few comments that may help your readers understand what = is going=20 on here.=20

  1. It is important to understand = how=20 teachers' salaries are determined. MSD has a salary grid which rewards = only=20 college degrees and credits (in eight steps) and longevity (in ten = steps).=20 Amazingly, teacher classroom performance and teaching field have = nothing to do=20 with how well a teacher is paid. After a very short probationary = period,=20 teachers progress up the grid automatically with longevity, even if = the grid=20 remains constant. This is in stark contrast to how pay is determined = in the=20 private sector, and at the university level, including UI, where there = are no=20 grids, and pay differs by teaching field and performance. The bottom = end of=20 the 2002-03 MSD salary grid is $25,000 ($32,150 with benefits) for a = first=20 year beginning teacher w/ a BA/BS. There are 80 cells in the grid, and = the=20 single top cell is $48,835 ($62,802 with benefits).
          =

  2. In MSD, there are 165 = teachers at or=20 above the bottom cell in 2002-03. Seventy-four, or 44.8%, of MSD's = teachers=20 are in the single top cell--$48,835 ($62,802 with benefits). Further, = 123, or=20 74.5%, of the teachers have topped-out in the longevity dimension of = the grid=20 and are located in the top five longevity cells (out of 180). The = average=20 salary is $42,842 ($55,094 with benefits), and the median (83rd) = salary is=20 $44,634 ($57,399 with benefits). The range on the grid is $25k to = $48.8k, but=20 both the mean and median are much closer to the top. In an even, or=20 rectangular, distribution, the mean and median salary would be about = $36.9k=20 ($47.5k with benefits). What really stands out is the degree to which = teachers=20 are packed at the top end of the grid.
     

  3. In MSD, 89.7% of the teachers = making at=20 least $25k in base salary are tenured. As I read the relevant statute = [Idaho=20 Code 33-514], teachers receive tenure after two years' probation. In = most=20 universities, tenure is not achieved until after seven years = probation, and=20 there are many non-tenure track positions. Aside from teachers' aides, = there=20 are almost no non-tenure track teaching positions in public education = or at=20 MSD. In my view, achieving a life-time appointment after only a couple = of=20 years is a much too short probationary period.
     

  4. In MSD, 46.1% of the teachers = have a=20 MA/MS/MEd degree or more. This is actually down from 1993-94 when = 61.9% of the=20 teachers had a MA/MS/MEd degree or more. For the state as a whole, the = comparable number is 19.2% for 2002-03. (MSD's pay grid has a "BA/BS + = 30=20 credits" step where there are quite a few teachers: 39 teachers are at = the top=20 of this step alone. Many apparently take this route up the grid rather = than=20 the MA/MS/MEd route.)
     

  5. In MSD, 35.9% of the teachers = are older=20 than fifty. For the state as a whole, the comparable number is 33.0%. = For both=20 MSD and the state, this percentage has grown by over 70% in the past = ten=20 years--up 72% for MSD and up 78% for the state as a = whole.
         =20

  6. In MSD, 30.2% of the teachers = had=20 longevity over 20 years. For the state as a whole, the comparable = figure is=20 26.4%. Over the past ten years, for MSD this figure has grown almost = twice as=20 fast as for the state as a whole--up 28% as compared to up 16% for the = state=20 as a whole.
     

  7. The upward trend in both age = and=20 longevity is understated somewhat for both MSD and the state since = teacher=20 numbers have been growing over the past ten years--up 8.3% for MSD and = up=20 15.4% for the state.
     

  8. What is going on here is = roughly the=20 following. Over the past decade or so, with steep gradients in the = salary=20 grid, MSD teachers started near the bottom of the grid, attained = tenure=20 quickly, and then rode the steep longevity and education gradients to = the top=20 salary in no more than ten years. The result has been very low teacher = turnover and a bloated, top-heavy, pay structure. For example, a grid = that had=20 top-pay reached in, say, 20 longevity steps instead of 10 would have = increased=20 turnover and saved a lot of salary money over the years, without any = loss in=20 teacher performance. And teachers would have been more evenly = distributed over=20 the pay grid. Put another way, no private business, or organization, = would=20 have most employees at the top end of the pay scale the way MSD does. = Recall=20 that 123, or 74.5%, of the teachers are in the top five (out of 80) = longevity=20 cells. It is all the more irrational since the criteria for pay=20 raises--longevity and additional college credits--have almost nothing = to do=20 with improved student performance.
     

  9. Regarding the longevity = dimension of=20 teacher pay. It is often argued that teacher performance improves with = experience. This is true, up to a point. Research shows that only the = first=20 four or five years of teacher experience has a payoff in student = performance.=20 After that, additional experience doesn't matter, and there is also = evidence=20 that some teachers burn-out later in their careers when their = performance=20 declines. This also means that tenure is awarded well before teachers = reach=20 their potential. So tenure is rewarded before administrators know how = a=20 teacher is going to turn out. (Again, note that tenure in universities = is=20 typically awarded only after seven years experience when much more is = known=20 about how the teacher will turn out, and after that pay can be = adjusted to=20 reflect performance, unlike in the public schools.) Think of how = absurd it is=20 to have tenure and pay policies where an employee at age 25 receives = tenure=20 for life with no possibility of being rewarded or penalized for good = or bad=20 performance. Where in the private sector does this happen? Tenure, in = and of=20 itself, is not that bad. In Universities, tenured professors who go to = sleep=20 can go for years without pay raises. Not so in public education. = There, tenure=20 in combination with an inflexible pay grid locks in and rewards = teachers=20 irrespective of performance. Such a system of pay determination is = simply=20 irrational from the standpoint of human resource = management.
         =20

  10. Regarding pedagogy education. = There is a=20 lot of evidence that shows that education courses, credits, and = degrees have=20 nothing to do with teacher performance, and thus it makes no sense to = have pay=20 determined by such factors. The most important teacher = characteristics, from=20 the standpoint of student performance, are: brains (verbal cognitive = ability),=20 a few years experience, and a MA degree (or concentration) in one's = teaching=20 field at the secondary level. Teachers themselves regularly cite = student=20 teaching as the most important education course they've taken. All the = rest is=20 off the radar screen as a determinant of student performance. Yet the = way in=20 which teachers are rewarded has almost no connection with these=20 characteristics. Further, many MEd degrees are given in the field of = education=20 administration, a degree which, by design, is not relevant to = classroom=20 teaching, yet it counts on the salary grid. Almost all higher degrees = in=20 education are pursued purely to climb the salary grid, not to improve=20 teaching--because they don't.
     

  11. While it is often instructive = to=20 annualize teachers' pay for the purpose of comparing it with other = kinds of=20 performance, as you have done, in my view the best way to get a handle = on=20 public school teachers' relative pay is to compare it to comparable = private=20 schools' teachers' pay. This is what is commonly done in other areas = of=20 government employment where the Bureau of Labor Statistics regularly = gathers=20 private sector pay for determining government pay for accountants, = computer=20 programmers, engineers, etc. Note that the NEA, IEA, etc, never make=20 comparisons with private sector teachers' pay, for fear of what will = be found.=20 The trick used by the teachers' unions in Idaho and elsewhere is to = compare=20 public school teachers' pay with that of public school teachers in = other=20 states where pay is similarly bloated and top-heavy. Since labor = markets are=20 invariably determined by local market conditions, market pay = differentials=20 within the same profession vary widely across regions. While Idaho's = teacher=20 pay ranks about 37th among the states--this rises about 10 places when = relative pension match and cost of living are considered, Idaho's per = capita=20 personal income ranks about 43-44th among the states. Thus, relative = to=20 Idaho's regional personal incomes, Idaho's teachers on the whole are = paid=20 relatively well.)

    When = public/private=20 teachers' pay comparisons are made, here is what is=20 found.

    Using data from the 1987-88 National = Center for=20 Educational Statistics (NCES) Schools and Staffing survey, Ballou and = Podgursky=20 found average public and private school teacher salaries to be $26,458 = and=20 $17,434 respectively. In these data, an adjustment was made for teachers = who=20 were members of religious orders by excluding all Catholic teachers who = were=20 never married. This shows that private salaries are on the average 65.9% = of=20 those in public schools. Similarly, in 1993-94 another study found = private=20 school salaries to be 64% of public school = teachers'.
    Both=20 these data sets ignore benefits, such as health insurance and retirement = contributions, which are much higher in the public school sector. = Benefits are=20 about 31.3% of salary in the public sector as a whole and 15.8% in the = private=20 sector. A study for Pennsylvania found that teachers' benefits as a = percentage=20 of total salary to be 36.1%, and for comparable employees in the private = sector=20 benefits were 23%. Benefits averaged 26.2% of salary for US public = school=20 teachers from 1994-995. Public school teachers' benefits are higher than = in=20 private schools.
    These observations raise the = issue of the=20 optimal--cost-minimizing--mix of teachers. Apparently, because private = schools=20 are under competitive pressure in their retail markets, they do a better = job of=20 choosing the optimal structural mix of teachers, thus producing an = average=20 salary well below those of public schools. Michael Podgursky has = addressed the=20 issue of pay comparability between public and private school teachers. = Using a=20 sample of non-sectarian, non-specialized, private schools, and = controlling for=20 sex, experience, education level, region and rural/urban status, he = found that=20 across longevity "pay in private schools begins at 78 percent of public = schools,=20 rises to 92 percent of public school pay by a teacher's twelfth year, = and=20 declines thereafter." Truncating the public school sample to include = only=20 suburban schools with very low poverty rates, which are comparable to = private=20 schools in general, he found that "private schools teachers now start at = 76=20 percent of their public school counterparts. This rises to 87 percent by = their=20 twelfth year and declines thereafter. . . . [T]he shape of the pay = function=20 [over longevity] remains the same but simply shifts downward." The fact = that=20 private schools have a teacher turnover and attrition rate about twice = that of=20 the public schools indicates that private schools use both teacher = "churn" and a=20 much flatter longevity dimension in salary structure to keep average pay = down.=20 In contrast, early tenure and a back-loaded salary grid virtually = guarantee that=20 the public schools will have low turnover and attrition and a much = higher=20 concentration of faculty at the top of their higher salary grid, exactly = like=20 the MSD data show. Aside from the fact that public schools pay = comparable=20 faculty more, this structural difference adds to the higher average pay = in=20 public schools. Simply put, private schools have an inter-temporal,=20 cost-minimizing longevity mix of teachers than the public schools, = including=20 MSD.=20

    For those = interested in=20 reading further, you can look at:=20

  • Dale Ballou and Michael = Podgursky,=20 Teacher Pay and Teacher Quality (Kalamazoo, MI: W.E. Upjohn = Institute=20 for Employment Research, 1997), Table 6.1, p. 131.

  • Donald H. McLaughlin and = Stephen=20 Broughman, Private Schools in the United States: A Statistical = Profile=20 (National Center for Education Statistics: Working Paper NCES 97-459, = 1997),=20 Table 3.12, p. 93.

  • David J. Wynne and Charles W. = Watters,=20 "Teacher Compensation: How it Compares with the Private Sector" = Government=20 Union Review 12, No. 3 (Summer 1991), Table 2, p. 39.

  • Michael Podgursky, "Fringe = Benefits"=20 Education Next, Vol 3, No. 3 (Summer 2003), pp. 71-76.
    (http://www.educationn= ext.org/20033/71.html)    =20

    The bottom line is the MDS = teachers'=20 pay is both bloated and top-end loaded. This is due to two factors: (1) = paying=20 most teachers well above their private counterparts in comparable = schools, and=20 (2) having a top-end loaded distribution of teachers. For years, the MSD = school=20 board has mismanaged both the level and structure of teachers' pay by = its=20 failure to resist the demands of the MEA. Teachers' unions are dominated = by=20 senior members who bargain primarily for their own benefit. The flip = side of=20 this is that beginning teachers are largely ignored by union = negotiators. In the=20 MSD salary grid, a beginning teacher does not receive any annual raise = until the=20 fourth year of longevity.
    Any way you cut it, = MSD's=20 teachers are very well paid, and there are far too many at the very top = of the=20 salary grid.=20

    I hope these comments help = clarify=20 your data and some of the underlying issues. I would be pleased to = answer any=20 questions you might have at: jwenders@uidaho.edu.=20

Regards,
Jack
--

John T.=20 Wenders
Professor of Economics, University of Idaho
Senior Fellow, = The=20 Commonwealth Foundation 

More things to discuss in our ongoing = conversations about=20 how to best improve education for Moscow's youth. Throwing more money at = the=20 problem certainly is not the solution.

Best,
Dale Courtney
Moscow,=20 Idaho

------=_NextPart_000_0087_01C330D3.C8AD9E40-- From vision2020@moscow.com Thu Jun 12 20:14:11 2003 From: vision2020@moscow.com (vision2020@moscow.com) Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2003 12:14:11 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] Latah Co. Planning Commission Agenda Message-ID: <000501c33116$ce3c0f70$3464000a@latah.id.us> The Latah County Planning Commission agenda for Tuesday, June 17, 2003, is available at http://www.latah.id.us/Comm/PlanZone_Main.htm. From dunadhaigh@hotmail.com Thu Jun 12 21:32:29 2003 From: dunadhaigh@hotmail.com (Jeremy Downey) Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2003 13:32:29 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] Doug Wilson Does Not Worship Satan!! Message-ID:

Now that's a shocking statement.  Where's your proof?

What's the world coming to if Doug Wilson is giving up Satanism?


Jeremy Downey
 
>From: Isaiah Lyre
>To: vision2020@moscow.com
>Subject: [Vision2020] Doug Wilson Does Not Worship Satan!!
>Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2003 11:00:41 -0700 (PDT)
>
>
>
>---------------------------------
>Do you Yahoo!?
>Free online calendar with sync to Outlook(TM).

Protect your PC - Click here for McAfee.com VirusScan Online From johncronin@moscow.com Thu Jun 12 21:52:12 2003 From: johncronin@moscow.com (John Cronin) Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2003 13:52:12 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] lost dog References: <000a01c33107$8c9d5880$acf2f5c7@Lewis> <001701c33109$5e813aa0$cb5bfea9@i0v6o9> Message-ID: <001601c33124$8043b350$84f2f5c7@Lewis> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0013_01C330E9.D3668390 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I am happy to report that Gizmo was found by a neighbor lady who took = him in and showered him with doggie treats. It's a wonder he was willing = to come home with me. Once back in his fenced area at home, Gizmo = promptly demonstrated how he made his escape. Dogs never laugh at = humans....right? Repairs were made and all is well.=20 Now let's get the Melina's dogs home. My thanks to Bill Venosdel for = his call. John ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Lois Melina=20 To: Vision 2020=20 Sent: Thursday, June 12, 2003 10:37 AM Subject: Re: [Vision2020] lost dog And our two yellow dogs took off yesterday while our backs were = turned. (They run loose only when we are out in the yard.) That's what = we get for treating the one dog's arthritis! They've been spotted in the = past on Randall Flat Road. We live about halfway between Moscow and = Troy. One dog has a tag, but he's chewed the collar off his fellow = traveler. Please let me know if you see one or both. They usually find their way = home, but we are worried that the one dog is so arthritic that he took = off when he felt good, but will have difficulty making it home. Thanks, Lois ----- Original Message -----=20 From: John Cronin=20 To: Vision 2020=20 Sent: Thursday, June 12, 2003 10:24 AM Subject: [Vision2020] lost dog Our little 10 lb. Yorkshire Terrier named Gizmo left his fenced yard = this morning at 7:15am. Gizmo's hair is black with brown markings. He = lives at 415 E. Lewis. (Lewis and Adams). If you seen him, please give = us a call at 883-4825. Thanks. John ------=_NextPart_000_0013_01C330E9.D3668390 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I am happy to report that Gizmo was = found by a=20 neighbor lady who took him in and showered him with doggie treats. It's = a wonder=20 he was willing to come home with me. Once back in his fenced area = at home,=20 Gizmo promptly demonstrated how he made his escape. Dogs never = laugh=20 at humans....right? Repairs were made and all is well. =
 
Now let's get the Melina's dogs home. =  My=20 thanks to Bill Venosdel for his call.
 
John
 
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Lois = Melina=20
Sent: Thursday, June 12, 2003 = 10:37=20 AM
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] lost = dog

And our two yellow dogs took off = yesterday while=20 our backs were turned. (They run loose only when we are out in the = yard.)=20 That's what we get for treating the one dog's arthritis! = They've=20 been spotted in the past on Randall Flat Road. We live about halfway = between=20 Moscow and Troy. One dog has a tag, but he's chewed the collar off his = fellow=20 traveler.
 
Please let me know if you see one or = both. They=20 usually find their way home, but we are worried that the one dog is so = arthritic that he took off when he felt good, but will have difficulty = making=20 it home.
 
Thanks,
Lois
 
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 John=20 Cronin
Sent: Thursday, June 12, 2003 = 10:24=20 AM
Subject: [Vision2020] lost = dog

Our little 10 lb. Yorkshire = Terrier named=20 Gizmo left his fenced yard this morning at 7:15am.  Gizmo's = hair is=20 black with brown markings. He lives at 415 E. Lewis. (Lewis and = Adams).=20 If you seen him, please give us a call at  883-4825.=20 Thanks.
 
John
------=_NextPart_000_0013_01C330E9.D3668390-- From stopchristchurch@yahoo.com Fri Jun 13 01:51:33 2003 From: stopchristchurch@yahoo.com (Nicholas Van Orton) Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2003 17:51:33 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Vision2020] STOP BILL FRENCH!! - HE'S A TOTAL LIAR!! Message-ID: <20030613005133.13038.qmail@web20514.mail.yahoo.com> --0-1355691699-1055465493=:12562 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii STOP BILL FRENCH!! - HE'S A TOTAL LIAR!! --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Free online calendar with sync to Outlook(TM). --0-1355691699-1055465493=:12562 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii STOP BILL FRENCH!! - HE'S A TOTAL LIAR!!

Do you Yahoo!?
Free online calendar with sync to Outlook(TM). --0-1355691699-1055465493=:12562-- From announcements@radiofreemoscow.com Fri Jun 13 05:35:44 2003 From: announcements@radiofreemoscow.com (Radio Free Moscow) Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2003 21:35:44 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] Radio Free Moscow Receives Construction Permit Message-ID: <7F59A090-9D58-11D7-A44A-00039394DAA8@radiofreemoscow.com> --Apple-Mail-7--137666289 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Contact Garrett Clevenger, 883-7965 =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 Leigh Robartes, 892-9299 =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 Bob Hoffmann, 883-0642 Date: 6/12/03 Radio Free Moscow, Inc. has announced a significant milestone in its=20 effort to bring a locally produced, nonprofit community radio station=20 to the airwaves.=A0 On May 30, the Federal Communications Commission=20 awarded the local group a permit to construct the station.=A0 According=20= to RFM board member Leigh Robartes, "The permit to construct allows us=20= to physically build the radio station and begin test broadcasts.=A0 We=20= have 18 months to begin broadcasting and request final licensing from=20 the FCC.=A0 The sooner we raise enough money to cover our start-up = costs,=20 though, the sooner we can begin broadcasting ." The local grassroots group has been organizing and fundraising for over=20= two years, and is now preparing a major fundraising drive to pay for=20 start-up expenses and the first year's operating costs.=A0 "We have=20 $13,000 dollars in the bank already," stated RFM treasurer Garrett=20 Clevenger.=A0 "Our budget through the first year of operation is between=20= $20,000 and $30,000, so we are well on our way.=A0 In addition to=20 traditional fundraisers and grant applications, we are launching our=20 $100 Founders' Club drive.=A0 Anyone who donates $100 or more during our=20= construction phase will receive special recognition as being a Founder=20= of Radio Free Moscow." Robartes says the radio station will be located in downtown Moscow,=20 providing a boost to revitalization efforts.=A0 With a frequency of 92.5=20= FM, the station should easily reach most residents of Moscow, and will=20= also extend to outlying areas, including Pullman. Board member Bob Hoffmann notes the benefits that the new station will=20= bring to the area.=A0 "In this day of unprecedented media consolidation,=20= Moscow will have its own community radio station, a station that cannot=20= be bought or sold by the new media empires.=A0 We will provide access to=20= local groups and citizens who have no voice on the major networks." Radio Free Moscow is a nonprofit, listener-supported community radio=20 station serving Moscow, Idaho. Radio Free Moscow is dedicated to=20 broadcasting progressive news and opinions, civic affairs, diverse=20 music and other programming not normally available from mainstream=20 media outlets.=A0 Radio Free Moscow is characterized by volunteer=20 involvement in all aspects of station operation. All donations to Radio Free Moscow are tax-deductible. Radio Free Moscow has received grants from Foundation Northwest, the=20 Latah County Community Foundation, and the Moscow Food Co-op. For more information, visit the Radio Free Moscow Web site,=20 www.radiofreemoscow.com.=A0 You can read more about the project, see the=20= FCC permit, and stream audio content that RFM has already produced. --Apple-Mail-7--137666289 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/enriched; charset=ISO-8859-1 Contact Garrett Clevenger, = 883-7965 =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 Leigh Robartes, = 892-9299 =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 Bob Hoffmann, = 883-0642 Date: 6/12/03 Radio Free Moscow, Inc. has announced a significant milestone in its effort to bring a locally produced, nonprofit community radio station to the airwaves.=A0 On May 30, the Federal Communications Commission awarded the local group a permit to construct the station.=A0 According to RFM board member Leigh Robartes, "The permit to construct allows us to physically build the radio station and begin test broadcasts.=A0 We have 18 months to begin broadcasting and request final licensing from the FCC.=A0 The sooner we raise enough money to cover our start-up costs, though, the sooner we can begin broadcasting ." The local grassroots group has been organizing and fundraising for over two years, and is now preparing a major fundraising drive to pay for start-up expenses and the first year's operating costs.=A0 "We have $13,000 dollars in the bank already," stated RFM treasurer Garrett Clevenger.=A0 "Our budget through the first year of operation is between $20,000 and $30,000, so we are well on our way.=A0 In addition to traditional fundraisers and grant applications, we are launching our $100 Founders' Club drive.=A0 Anyone who donates $100 or more during our construction phase will receive special recognition as being a Founder of Radio Free Moscow." Robartes says the radio station will be located in downtown Moscow, providing a boost to revitalization efforts.=A0 With a frequency of 92.5 FM, the station should easily reach most residents of Moscow, and will also extend to outlying areas, including = Pullman. Board member Bob Hoffmann notes the benefits that the new station will bring to the area.=A0 "In this day of unprecedented media consolidation, Moscow will have its own community radio station, a station that cannot be bought or sold by the new media empires.=A0 We will provide access to local groups and citizens who have no voice on the major networks." Radio Free Moscow is a nonprofit, listener-supported community radio station serving Moscow, Idaho. Radio Free Moscow is dedicated to broadcasting progressive news and opinions, civic affairs, diverse music and other programming not normally available from mainstream media outlets.=A0 Radio Free Moscow is characterized by volunteer involvement in all aspects of station operation. All donations to Radio Free Moscow are tax-deductible. Radio Free Moscow has received grants from Foundation Northwest, the Latah County Community Foundation, and the Moscow Food Co-op. For more information, visit the Radio Free Moscow Web site,1A1A,1A1A,FFFF = www.radiofreemoscow.com.=A0 You can read more about the project, see the FCC permit, and stream audio content that RFM has already produced. --Apple-Mail-7--137666289-- From dale@courtneys.us Fri Jun 13 16:22:58 2003 From: dale@courtneys.us (Dale Courtney) Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2003 08:22:58 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] MSD Teacher Salaries Message-ID: <009b01c331bf$acf49310$c901a8c0@DMCLAPTOP2> I have been told that some could not see the graphs that I embedded in my last email. To see the graphs (which really tell the story), please link to: http://courtneys.us/MSD/Teacher_Salaries.htm Best, Dale Courtney Moscow, ID From stopchristchurch@yahoo.com Fri Jun 13 17:12:34 2003 From: stopchristchurch@yahoo.com (Free RADIO Moscow) Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2003 09:12:34 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Vision2020] Radio Free Moscow Was Stolen From Peter Basoa - GIVE IT BACK Message-ID: <20030613161234.15656.qmail@web20514.mail.yahoo.com> --0-965924570-1055520754=:15400 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Radio Free Moscow Was Stolen From Peter Basoa - GIVE IT BACK --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Free online calendar with sync to Outlook(TM). --0-965924570-1055520754=:15400 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
Radio Free Moscow Was Stolen From Peter Basoa - GIVE IT BACK

Do you Yahoo!?
Free online calendar with sync to Outlook(TM). --0-965924570-1055520754=:15400-- From thansen@moscow.com Fri Jun 13 17:49:52 2003 From: thansen@moscow.com (thansen@moscow.com) Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2003 16:49:52 GMT Subject: [Vision2020] Radio Free Moscow Was Stolen From Peter Basoa - GIVE IT BACK Message-ID: <200306131621.h5DGLBQU059039@whale2.fsr.net> Whether or not there is any truth at all in the babble below, it is really insignificant. I for one totally support the concept and develppment of Radio Free Moscow. Where do I send my contribution, Garrett? Tom Hansen Moscow, Idaho > Radio Free Moscow Was Stolen From Peter Basoa - GIVE IT BACK > > > --------------------------------- > Do you Yahoo!? > Free online calendar with sync to Outlook(TM). --------------------------------------------- This message was sent by First Step Internet. http://www.fsr.net/ From announcements@radiofreemoscow.com Sat Jun 14 01:00:25 2003 From: announcements@radiofreemoscow.com (Radio Free Moscow) Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2003 17:00:25 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] Donations to Radio Free Moscow In-Reply-To: <20030613190003.45304.81536.Mailman@whale2.fsr.net> Message-ID: <338FB02C-9DFB-11D7-A44A-00039394DAA8@radiofreemoscow.com> For those wishing to donate to Radio Free Moscow, please send checks to Radio Free Moscow, PO Box 8203, Moscow, Idaho 83843. $25 is the basic yearly membership, $15 for students. All those who donate $100 or more during our construction phase will be included in the Founders' Club and will receive special recognition as such. Thank you for your support. Radio Free Moscow is a nonprofit, listener-supported community radio station serving Moscow, Idaho. Radio Free Moscow is dedicated to broadcasting progressive news and opinions, civic affairs, diverse music and other programming not normally available from mainstream media outlets.  Radio Free Moscow is characterized by volunteer involvement in all aspects of station operation. From stopchristchurch@yahoo.com Sat Jun 14 20:03:28 2003 From: stopchristchurch@yahoo.com (STOP RFM!!) Date: Sat, 14 Jun 2003 12:03:28 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Vision2020] Every Penny To Radio Free Moscow Supports Elitism!! Message-ID: <20030614190328.72381.qmail@web20504.mail.yahoo.com> --0-929851216-1055617408=:71628 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! --0-929851216-1055617408=:71628 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii

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SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! --0-929851216-1055617408=:71628-- From london@moscow.com Sat Jun 14 20:57:05 2003 From: london@moscow.com (Bill London) Date: Sat, 14 Jun 2003 12:57:05 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] Moscow is hiring water conservation spokesperson Message-ID: <3EEB7E10.3B7FD6A@moscow.com> Maybe the message has gotten through to the Moscow city administration. Perhaps the city will finally take seriously their responsibility to stop mining water from our aquifer. In the Daily News (weekend edition, 6/14, page 8B) is a help wanted ad from the city for a PR person to design and complete a public education plan for water conservation in Moscow. I hope lots of people apply and that the city hires a talented person. BL From ted_moffett@hotmail.com Sat Jun 14 21:47:40 2003 From: ted_moffett@hotmail.com (Ted Moffett) Date: Sat, 14 Jun 2003 20:47:40 +0000 Subject: [Vision2020] White House Silenced Experts On Iraq etc. Message-ID: White House Silenced Experts who Questioned Iraq Intel Info Six Months before War by Jason Leopold http://globalresearch.ca/articles/LEO306D.html 70 killed; scores of weapons seized http://www.msnbc.com/news/870749.asp?vts=061220031955&cp1=1 Covert Unit Hunted for Iraqi Arms http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A52505-2003Jun12.html?nav=hptop_tb Leading Iraqi paints grim picture of Iraq http://interestalert.com/brand/siteia.shtml?Story=st/sn/06120000aaa01202.upi&Sys=siteia&Fid=LATEBRKN&Type=News&Filter=Late%20Breaking After Saddam Fall, Iraqis Buying Weapons http://www.optonline.net/Article/Feeds/0,4003,channel%3D32%26article%3D8409190,00.html US pushes for early privatization in Iraq US plans to privatize first of Iraq's 100 state-owned firms within year as soon as interim administration is in place. By Shino Yuasa - BAGHDAD http://www.middle-east-online.com/english/?id=5937 Allies 'delaying return of Iraqi refugees' http://www.ananova.com/news/story/sm_789993.html?menu=news.latestheadlines.worldnews _________________________________________________________________ STOP MORE SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From lukenieuwsma@softhome.net Sun Jun 15 05:05:33 2003 From: lukenieuwsma@softhome.net (Luke) Date: Sat, 14 Jun 2003 21:05:33 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] Religious Diversity Education References: Message-ID: <00a001c332f5$7591eda0$2f00a8c0@MOBILELUKE> Hi, Mr. Arnold: >Second, the idea of a group of people being a superior race existed long before that of >"social or biological Darwinism." Social Darwinism was a justification and >explanation, not a cause. Ah, but it was a cause. That's why millions and millions of Germans were willing to follow Hitler; science had shown that the blond-haired, blue-eyed Germanic Arian had reached the top of the ladder. Hitler truly considered other races almost subhuman; he hardly wished to talk about the Africans. Surely you can see how racism is a logical conclusion from Darwinism. If we're all evolving all the time, with chance and the environment deciding how different species develop over time, then some are better and some are worse. Some are a strong race, and some are weak. And according to the law of Darwinism, the fittest are to survive. Therefore, considering that we all supposedly came from ape-like origins, those less evolved among us are more animal-like and closer to the monkey than the rest of us. And following nature, they should be dominated by the stronger of the human genus. Now when you put this stuff into the hands of a charismatic, very skilled rhetorician/politician, you get Nazi Germany. >The Egyptians and Romans believed that they were superior as well. If you read the >Bible like you said you did you would know the Jews were treated as an inferior race >in the Egyptian Empire and were enslaved. The Jews were treated with hatred and fear, but not as though they were simply a lesser evolved species of humans, which is what happened in WWII as a direct result of Darwinian thought. >>"Maybe modern Catholicism has swerved to this position, but the Catholics >>of the Medieval Ages thru the 1800's centered liturgy and belief around the >>priests, Rome, and particularly the Pope. Why do you think the greatest <Well, maybe if we were in the 1800's or before then you would be right, >however, >what year are we in now? To trace this trail back to the origin, we were discussing Napoleon's Catholicism, not modern Catholicism. You blamed Christianity for Napoleon's actions; I pointed out the difference between his Catholicism and true Christianity. You now agree that I am correct regarding 1800's Catholicism; therefore Napoleon cannot be called a mar on Christian history. >Third, my position was not what nation officially recognized but what nation who's >majority practiced it. Well in that case, England is not Christian because the majority of English are atheists. And Europe and the US are not Christian either, because the majority of the nations don't practice Christianity. There is so much moral filth today; the majority of America sat calmly through the term of a president who was an adulterer, murderer, and liar. They didn't care. Now if that's Christian behavior, I'm a duck. >If two people see a house, one from the back, and one from the front. Then they >describe the house to each other and they disagree, who is right and who is wrong? Good one, but if two people see a blue house from the front and the back, and one says it is a blue house and the other says it is green, one of them is very wrong. >You think you know all sides and everything about God? I claim you don't, and that >others are describing the same God from different points of view. Muslims, Jews, and >Christians, all worship the God of Abraham, the God of David, the God the Moses. I don't claim I know everything about God. However, He has revealed what we need to know in the Scriptures. And when He says, "You shall have no other gods before Me," and "If you love Me you will obey My commandments," that means that we worship Him, not Allah, and that we obey His commandments, not Allah's. >We are all going to disagree on laws, rules, regulations, which is the better prophet, >how to worship, and how often, but then again, didn't Christ's death place us above >that law? He placed us under grace so that we might fulfill and obey the law, being spotless and pure before Him. And we cannot all obey the law unless there is only one correct law. Adultery cannot be right and wrong at the same time; neither can bigamy. Therefore, it is necessary that we eventually all believe the same thing, which someday we will. Take care, and God bless, Luke Nieuwsma From lukenieuwsma@softhome.net Wed Jun 11 02:44:28 2003 From: lukenieuwsma@softhome.net (Luke) Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2003 18:44:28 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] Re: Religious Diversity Education References: <79.12d8fb01.2c16bbcc@aol.com> Message-ID: <009e01c332f5$747be9c0$2f00a8c0@MOBILELUKE> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0077_01C32F80.53520770 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Well, He was the One who first had original thought, so He didn't need = to create it. Luke ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Cjsnightclub@aol.com=20 To: lukenieuwsma@softhome.net ; vision2020@moscow.com=20 Sent: Monday, June 09, 2003 9:42 PM Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Re: Religious Diversity Education Since God is The Creator, and we all agree on that, since He created = all things, did He not create all first original thought? Phil Roderick ------=_NextPart_000_0077_01C32F80.53520770 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Well, He was the One who first had = original=20 thought, so He didn't need to create it.
Luke
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Cjsnightclub@aol.com
To: lukenieuwsma@softhome.net = ; vision2020@moscow.com
Sent: Monday, June 09, 2003 = 9:42 PM
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Re: = Religious=20 Diversity Education

Since God is The Creator, and we all agree on = that, since=20 He created all things, did He not create all first original=20 thought?

Phil Roderick = ------=_NextPart_000_0077_01C32F80.53520770-- From thansen@moscow.com Sun Jun 15 12:38:30 2003 From: thansen@moscow.com (Tom Hansen) Date: Sun, 15 Jun 2003 04:38:30 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] Religious Diversity Education In-Reply-To: <00a001c332f5$7591eda0$2f00a8c0@MOBILELUKE> Message-ID: Luke Nieuwsma stated: " . . . That's why millions and millions of Germans were willing to follow Hitler . . . " If you are implying that all Germans were willing to follow Hitler, you are VERY mistaken, Mr. Nieuwsma. Having served three tours in Germany while in the Army (and having befriended several German families), I have found (and it is written) that a vast majority of the German people were forced to follow Hitler. Mr. Nieuwsma further stated: " . . . but if two people see a blue house from the front and the back, and one says it is a blue house and the other says it is green, one of them is very wrong." The question then becomes "Which one?". In their own ways, each of them are right. Or is Mr. Nieuwsma the sole evaluator of who is right and who is wrong? Take care, Tom Hansen Moscow, Idaho From DonaldH675@aol.com Sun Jun 15 16:43:30 2003 From: DonaldH675@aol.com (DonaldH675@aol.com) Date: Sun, 15 Jun 2003 11:43:30 EDT Subject: [Vision2020] Hitler's Germany Message-ID: <6.1323a554.2c1dee22@aol.com> --part1_6.1323a554.2c1dee22_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dear Tom and Visionaries, I have what amounts to a second undergraduate major in German history betwee= n=20 1919 and 1945 and Holocaust studies.=A0 I am certain that your experience wi= th=20 German nationals was positive and that when/if you discussed that time with=20 them very few would have positive things to say about Hitler or his regime.= =A0=20 However, to accept their statements that they were forced to follow the dict= ates=20 of the 3rd Reich is an oversimplification.=A0 Hitler was voted into office b= y=20 the same people who later disavowed any involvement or willing cooperation w= ith=20 his hateful government. Hitler's policies, including his anti-Semitism, were= =20 well known and endorsed by the German populace prior to 1932=A0(and yes, I k= now=20 the number of popular votes for fascist candidates was declining). =20 Nonetheless, without the tacit, if not enthusiastic support, of the majority= of German=20 people it would have been impossible for the horrors of the Holocaust and Wo= rld=20 War II to have taken place.=A0 That is not to say that decent folks who spok= e=20 out were not imprisoned or killed -- they were often were.=A0 There is no do= ubt=20 that fear of retaliation shaped many responses to individual situations.=A0=20= But,=20 the reality is that the surviving generation of World War II Germans often=20 retell their story in a way that denies their contributions to Hitler's agen= da.=A0=20 This denial that is self-serving and not supported by factual analysis. Sorry to sound so strident but the role of German people, and their eager=20 collaborators in Poland, France, the Ukraine, and especially the Croatians,=20 cannot be excused or forgotten. Rose Huskey --part1_6.1323a554.2c1dee22_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dear Tom and Visionaries,
I have what amounts to a second undergraduate major in German history betwee= n 1919 and 1945 and Holocaust studies.=A0 I am certain that your experience=20= with German nationals was positive and that when/if you discussed that time=20= with them very few would have positive things to say about Hitler or his reg= ime.=A0 However, to accept their statements that they were forced to follow=20= the dictates of the 3rd Reich is an oversimplification.=A0 Hitler was voted=20= into office by the same people who later disavowed any involvement or willin= g cooperation with his hateful government. Hitler's policies, including his=20= anti-Semitism, were well known and endorsed by the German populace prior to=20= 1932=A0(and yes, I know the number of popular votes for fascist candidates w= as declining).  Nonetheless, without the tacit, if not enthusiastic sup= port, of the majority of German people it would have been impossible for the= horrors of the Holocaust and World War II to have taken place.=A0 That is n= ot to say that decent folks who spoke out were not imprisoned or killed -- t= hey were often were.=A0 There is no doubt that fear of retaliation shaped ma= ny responses to individual situations.=A0 But, the reality is that the survi= ving generation of World War II Germans often retell their story in a way th= at denies their contributions to Hitler's agenda.=A0 This denial that is sel= f-serving and not supported by factual analysis.
Sorry to sound so strident but the role of German people, and their eager co= llaborators in Poland, France, the Ukraine, and especially the Croatians, ca= nnot be excused or forgotten.
Rose Huskey
 --part1_6.1323a554.2c1dee22_boundary-- From JoeH@turbonet.com Sun Jun 15 17:27:46 2003 From: JoeH@turbonet.com (Joe Huffman) Date: Sun, 15 Jun 2003 09:27:46 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] Hitler's Germany In-Reply-To: <6.1323a554.2c1dee22@aol.com> Message-ID: <007201c3335b$0df13d20$6501a8c0@Voyager> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0073_01C33320.61926520 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit See also: Hitler's Willing Executioners: Ordinary Germans and the Holocaust by Daniel Jonah Goldhagen http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0679772685/qid=1055693561/sr=2-1/ ref=sr_2_1/104-3226486-2192766 And a little bit on the other side of the story: Plotting Hitler's Death: The Story of the German Resistance by Joachim C. Fest, Bruce Little (Translator) http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0805056483/qid=1055693645/ sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_1/104-3226486-2192766?v=glance &s=books I don't have a degree or even any formal study in the subject but it has been a hobby of mine for a while. My impression is that while there were some people that did take a part in actively resisting the policies that were put in place and the control of the media made it very difficult to resist and that with the right kind of peer pressure and approval it became possible, acceptable, even praiseworthy to exterminate the Jews and other 'subhumans'. The police squads that followed up behind the German army as they went across central Europe sent postcards home of themselves smiling, next to piles of bodies they had killed. Some officers brought their families along and would sometimes watch them as they 'worked'. And don't think it couldn't happen here. There have been sociological and psychological experiments that pretty conclusively show that a person in authority can convince someone to inflict torture and fatal injury to an human without much difficulty. And with something like 60+ million people killed by their own governments in the last century I think the issue is pretty much settled that it happens way too easily. The question is how to prevent it and how to stop it once it begins. So far there are no universally accepted answers. -joe- ---- http://www.joehuffman.org http://www.modernballistics.com http://www.boomershoot.org mailto:JoeH@joehuffman.org mailto:phone@joehuffman.org (Cell phone text message 110 chars max) -----Original Message----- From: vision2020-admin@moscow.com [mailto:vision2020-admin@moscow.com] On Behalf Of DonaldH675@aol.com Sent: Sunday, June 15, 2003 8:44 AM To: vision2020@moscow.com Subject: [Vision2020] Hitler's Germany Dear Tom and Visionaries, I have what amounts to a second undergraduate major in German history between 1919 and 1945 and Holocaust studies. I am certain that your experience with German nationals was positive and that when/if you discussed that time with them very few would have positive things to say about Hitler or his regime. However, to accept their statements that they were forced to follow the dictates of the 3rd Reich is an oversimplification. Hitler was voted into office by the same people who later disavowed any involvement or willing cooperation with his hateful government. Hitler's policies, including his anti-Semitism, were well known and endorsed by the German populace prior to 1932 (and yes, I know the number of popular votes for fascist candidates was declining). Nonetheless, without the tacit, if not enthusiastic support, of the majority of German people it would have been impossible for the horrors of the Holocaust and World War II to have taken place. That is not to say that decent folks who spoke out were not imprisoned or killed -- they were often were. There is no doubt that fear of retaliation shaped many responses to individual situations. But, the reality is that the surviving generation of World War II Germans often retell their story in a way that denies their contributions to Hitler's agenda. This denial that is self-serving and not supported by factual analysis. Sorry to sound so strident but the role of German people, and their eager collaborators in Poland, France, the Ukraine, and especially the Croatians, cannot be excused or forgotten. Rose Huskey ------=_NextPart_000_0073_01C33320.61926520 Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message
See=20 also:
 
Hitler's Willing Executioners: Ordinary Germans and the = Holocaust
by=20 Daniel Jonah Goldhagen
http://www.amazon.com/exec/o= bidos/ASIN/0679772685/qid=3D1055693561/sr=3D2-1/ref=3Dsr_2_1/104-3226486-= 2192766
 
And a=20 little bit on the other side of the story:
 
Plotting Hitler's Death: The Story of the German = Resistance
by Joachim=20 C. Fest, Bruce Little (Translator)
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0805056483/qid=3D105569= 3645/sr=3D1-1/ref=3Dsr_1_1/104-3226486-2192766?v=3Dglance&s=3Dbooks
 
 
I=20 don't have a degree or even any formal study in the subject but it has = been a=20 hobby of mine for a while.  My impression is that while there were = some=20 people that did take a part in actively resisting the policies that were = put in=20 place and the control of the media made it very difficult to resist and = that=20 with the right kind of peer pressure and approval it became possible,=20 acceptable, even praiseworthy to exterminate the Jews and other=20 'subhumans'.  The police squads that followed up behind the German = army as=20 they went across central Europe sent postcards home of themselves = smiling, next=20 to piles of bodies they had killed.  Some officers brought their = families=20 along and would sometimes watch them as they = 'worked'.
 
And don't think it couldn't happen = here.  There=20 have been sociological and psychological experiments that pretty = conclusively=20 show that a person in authority can convince someone to inflict torture = and=20 fatal injury to an human without much difficulty.  And with something like 60+ million people = killed by=20 their own governments in the last century I think the issue is pretty = much=20 settled that it happens way too easily.  The question is how to = prevent it=20 and how to stop it once it begins.  So far there are no universally = accepted answers.
 
 
-joe-
----
<= A=20 href=3D"http://www.joehuffman.org/">http://www.joehuffman.org
http://www.modernballistics.com
http://www.boomershoot.org
mailto:JoeH@joehuffman.org
mailto:phone@joehuffman.org (Cell = phone text=20 message 110 chars max)
 
-----Original Message-----
From:=20 vision2020-admin@moscow.com [mailto:vision2020-admin@moscow.com] On = Behalf=20 Of DonaldH675@aol.com
Sent: Sunday, June 15, 2003 8:44=20 AM
To: vision2020@moscow.com
Subject: [Vision2020] = Hitler's Germany

Dear Tom and = Visionaries,
I have what=20 amounts to a second undergraduate major in German history between 1919 = and=20 1945 and Holocaust studies.  I am certain that your experience = with=20 German nationals was positive and that when/if you discussed that time = with=20 them very few would have positive things to say about Hitler or his=20 regime.  However, to accept their statements that they were = forced to=20 follow the dictates of the 3rd Reich is an oversimplification.  = Hitler=20 was voted into office by the same people who later disavowed any = involvement=20 or willing cooperation with his hateful government. Hitler's policies, = including his anti-Semitism, were well known and endorsed by the = German=20 populace prior to 1932 (and yes, I know the number of popular = votes for=20 fascist candidates was declining).  Nonetheless, without the = tacit, if=20 not enthusiastic support, of the majority of German people it would = have been=20 impossible for the horrors of the Holocaust and World War II to have = taken=20 place.  That is not to say that decent folks who spoke out were = not=20 imprisoned or killed -- they were often were.  There is no doubt = that=20 fear of retaliation shaped many responses to individual = situations.  But,=20 the reality is that the surviving generation of World War II Germans = often=20 retell their story in a way that denies their contributions to = Hitler's=20 agenda.  This denial that is self-serving and not supported by = factual=20 analysis.
Sorry to sound so strident but the role of German people, = and=20 their eager collaborators in Poland, France, the Ukraine, and = especially the=20 Croatians, cannot be excused or forgotten.
Rose=20 Huskey
------=_NextPart_000_0073_01C33320.61926520-- From DonaldH675@aol.com Sun Jun 15 18:38:02 2003 From: DonaldH675@aol.com (DonaldH675@aol.com) Date: Sun, 15 Jun 2003 13:38:02 EDT Subject: [Vision2020] (no subject) Message-ID: <173.1bc4b75f.2c1e08fa@aol.com> --part1_173.1bc4b75f.2c1e08fa_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dear Visionaries, Joe's thoughtful answer expressed the dilemma of civilians under a totalitarian regime far better than my email. Tom's experience reflects a facet of the story too. Although Goldhagen's book is controversial, I find both his thesis and arguments compelling. Another interesting source is the great German film The Nasty Girl, (schreckliche Maedchen, Das) A review from the Baltimore City Paper: "Where were you from 1939 to 1945? Where are you now?" reads the German graffiti scrawled along a wall under the opening credits of Michael Verhoeven's fact-based black comedy The Nasty Girl. The girl of the title is headstrong, determined Sonja Rosenberger (an animated Lena Stolze), who goes from a whistling pig-tailed model schoolgirl to a yodeling town pariah when she takes up a national essay contest whose theme is "My Town in the Third Reich." As the essay develops into a university Ph.D. topic and then a book, Sonja battles her entire town to gain access to critical files that reveal the town's history in a shrewdly farcical tale whose humor only heightens its abruptly shocking and frightening turns. Verhoeven's imaginative staging, creative use of backdrops, energetic cutting, and blend of black and white and color create a provocative scrutiny of the ever-sensitive subject of Germany's 20th-century past." http://www.citypaper.com/1999-09-13/rewind39.html For those interested I'm sure a local video store would have it. It was nominated for both a Golden Globe and an Academy Award in 1990. Take care, Rose Huskey --part1_173.1bc4b75f.2c1e08fa_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dear Visionaries,
Joe's thoughtful answer expressed the dilemma of civilians under a totalitar= ian regime far better than my email.  Tom's experience reflects a facet= of the story too.  Although Goldhagen's book is controversial, I find=20= both his thesis and arguments compelling.  Another interesting source i= s the great German film The Nasty Girl,  (schreckliche Maedchen, Das) =20= A review from the Baltimore City Paper:
"Where were you from 1939 to 1945? Where are you now?" reads the German graf= fiti scrawled along a wall under the opening credits of Michael Verhoeven's=20= fact-based black comedy The Nasty Girl. The girl of the title is head= strong, determined Sonja Rosenberger (an animated Lena Stolze), who goes fro= m a whistling pig-tailed model schoolgirl to a yodeling town pariah when she= takes up a national essay contest whose theme is "My Town in the Third Reic= h." As the essay develops into a university Ph.D. topic and then a book, Son= ja battles her entire town to gain access to critical files that reveal the=20= town's history in a shrewdly farcical tale whose humor only heightens its ab= ruptly shocking and frightening turns. Verhoeven's imaginative staging, crea= tive use of backdrops, energetic cutting, and blend of black and white and c= olor create a provocative scrutiny of the ever-sensitive subject of Germany'= s 20th-century past."  http://www.citypaper.com/1999-09-13/rewind39.html
For those interested I'm sure a local video store would have it.  It wa= s nominated for both a Golden Globe and an Academy Award in 1990.
Take care,
Rose Huskey --part1_173.1bc4b75f.2c1e08fa_boundary-- From ted_moffett@hotmail.com Sun Jun 15 22:07:10 2003 From: ted_moffett@hotmail.com (Ted Moffett) Date: Sun, 15 Jun 2003 21:07:10 +0000 Subject: [Vision2020] Fraud Alert! Fwd: Dear PayPal Customer Message-ID: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_3b82_4ed9_e80 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed All: I got this e-mail requesting credit card # and pin # etc! Someone must fall for this. I think the e-mail should forward to vision2020. If it does not, I apologize in advance. Ted >From: 51kodymzah <51kodymzah@paypal.com> >To: Ted_moffett >Subject: Dear PayPal Customer >Date: Sun, 15 Jun 2003 18:15:05 +0000 > _________________________________________________________________ Add photos to your e-mail with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail ------=_NextPart_000_3b82_4ed9_e80 Content-Type: message/rfc822 X-Message-Info: JGTYoYF78jEHjJx36Oi8+Q1OJDRSDidP Received: from compuserve.com ([68.119.104.68]) by mc3-f5.law16.hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.5600); Sun, 15 Jun 2003 12:08:35 -0700 Date: Sun, 15 Jun 2003 18:15:05 +0000 From: 51kodymzah <51kodymzah@paypal.com> Subject: Dear PayPal Customer To: Ted_moffett References: <239JGG4G97JIGJAG@hotmail.com> In-Reply-To: <239JGG4G97JIGJAG@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <7EHCI57IFC8E7H67@paypal.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Return-Path: 51kodymzah@paypal.com X-OriginalArrivalTime: 15 Jun 2003 19:08:36.0186 (UTC) FILETIME=[859373A0:01C33371] PayPal
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------=_NextPart_000_3b82_4ed9_e80-- From ted_moffett@hotmail.com Sun Jun 15 23:00:25 2003 From: ted_moffett@hotmail.com (Ted Moffett) Date: Sun, 15 Jun 2003 22:00:25 +0000 Subject: [Vision2020] Religious Diversity Education Message-ID: All: I would rather rewrite Luke's comment to read: "SHE was the One who first had original thought, so SHE didn't need to create it." The female sex certainly is more connected to creation, don't you think? After all, we all were given birth from the body of a women. Of course men were so jealous of and awed by this fact, they had to force male dominated religion upon us, to assert their control over the miracle of creation that women represented. But I wonder, why does "original thought" have to have a start? Perhaps "thought" has always been and will always be? If so, there has been no "first original thought." Why did God have to create the universe at a point in time? Perhaps God has always been, and our universe has always been, because of course a universe that is not infinite in time is limited, and God in his infinite capacities would not create something limited. Time is such a human concept. God could be "outside" time, and his creation of the universe was infinitely long ago, "outside" of time, in effect meaning it had no start, as we understand this. Ted >From: "Luke" >To: Cjsnightclub@aol.com, vision2020@moscow.com >Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Re: Religious Diversity Education >Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2003 18:44:28 -0700 > >Well, He was the One who first had original thought, so He didn't need to >create it. >Luke > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Cjsnightclub@aol.com > To: lukenieuwsma@softhome.net ; vision2020@moscow.com > Sent: Monday, June 09, 2003 9:42 PM > Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Re: Religious Diversity Education > > > Since God is The Creator, and we all agree on that, since He created all >things, did He not create all first original thought? > > Phil Roderick _________________________________________________________________ Add photos to your e-mail with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail From bjcraw@uidaho.edu Sun Jun 15 23:10:19 2003 From: bjcraw@uidaho.edu (bjcraw@uidaho.edu) Date: Sun, 15 Jun 2003 15:10:19 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] RE: Fraud Alert! Fwd: Dear PayPal Customer Message-ID: <196fcf19c10a.19c10a196fcf@uidaho.edu> Quote: All: I got this e-mail requesting credit card # and pin # etc! Someone must fall for this. I think the e-mail should forward to vision2020. If it does not, I apologize in advance. Ted Unquote I got this the other day on my Yahoo email account. There is also a variation using Ebay instead of PayPal. I have sent a copy of the one I got to PayPal with full headers so they can hopefully track down the scammers before they steal too many peoples account info. Jean C "No one can make you feel inferior without your consent" Eleanor Roosevelt http://www.uidaho.edu/~bjcraw/ From thansen@moscow.com Sun Jun 15 23:29:47 2003 From: thansen@moscow.com (Tom Hansen) Date: Sun, 15 Jun 2003 15:29:47 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] RE: Fraud Alert! Fwd: Dear PayPal Customer In-Reply-To: <196fcf19c10a.19c10a196fcf@uidaho.edu> Message-ID: This is most definitely a scam. I have been dealing with Ebay and PayPal for a couple years. NEither Ebay nor PayPal send e-mails requesting account verification. Account holders (with Ebay and PayPal) verify their accounts, passwords, etc. utilizing an active server page (.asp) from within their domain. You DO NOT e-mail this info to them. Take care, Tom Hansen > -----Original Message----- > From: vision2020-admin@moscow.com [mailto:vision2020-admin@moscow.com]On > Behalf Of bjcraw@uidaho.edu > Sent: Sunday, June 15, 2003 3:10 PM > To: vision2020@moscow.com > Subject: [Vision2020] RE: Fraud Alert! Fwd: Dear PayPal Customer > > > Quote: > > All: > > I got this e-mail requesting credit card # and pin # etc! > Someone must fall > for this. I think the e-mail should forward to vision2020. If > it does not, > I apologize in advance. > > Ted > > Unquote > > I got this the other day on my Yahoo email account. There is also > a variation using Ebay instead of PayPal. I have sent a copy of > the one I got to PayPal with full headers so they can hopefully > track down the scammers before they steal too many peoples account info. > > Jean C > "No one can make you feel inferior without your consent" > Eleanor Roosevelt > http://www.uidaho.edu/~bjcraw/ > > _____________________________________________________ > List services made available by First Step Internet, > serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994. > http://www.fsr.net > mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com > ///////////////////////////////////////////////////// > From escape@alt-escape.com Mon Jun 16 01:59:11 2003 From: escape@alt-escape.com (Bob Hoffmann) Date: Sun, 15 Jun 2003 17:59:11 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] Food Co-op syndicates Web site headlines Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.2.20030615174054.0169ec48@mail.turbonet.com> The Moscow Food Co-op Web site is now syndicating its articles, free of cost. Web site owners can now easily display Food Co-op headlines on their Web sites. By inserting a short JavaScript into a Web page's source code, the 10 most recent Food Co-op headlines will always appear on that page. Included are headlines, short article descriptions, and links to the articles on the Co-op Web site. Instructions for using this feature are available at http://www.moscowfood.coop/rss.html Dedicated news reader programs can also display the headlines by using the RSS file at http://www.moscowfood.coop/headlines.xml Questions/comments? Contact me! Bob Hoffmann 820 S. Logan St. Moscow, ID 83843 Tel: 208 883-0642 From lmelina@moscow.com Mon Jun 16 17:32:06 2003 From: lmelina@moscow.com (Lois Melina) Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2003 09:32:06 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] re: lost dogs Message-ID: <001c01c33424$d3dc4100$988dfea9@i0v6o9> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0019_01C333EA.26C4C760 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Our dogs were found...in the pound. Thanks to all of you who responded. Lois ------=_NextPart_000_0019_01C333EA.26C4C760 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Our dogs were found...in the pound. = Thanks to all=20 of you who responded.
 
Lois
------=_NextPart_000_0019_01C333EA.26C4C760-- From dale@courtneys.us Mon Jun 16 18:07:24 2003 From: dale@courtneys.us (Dale Courtney) Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2003 10:07:24 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] Server Down Message-ID: <019d01c33429$c2668cf0$6400a8c0@DMCLAPTOP2> Visionaries, My apologies, my server was down for 2 days. The URL to the MSD teacher salary figures can be found at: http://courtneys.us/MSD/Teacher_Salaries.htm Feedback/comments appreciated. Best, Dale Courtney Moscow, Idaho From stopchristchurch@yahoo.com Tue Jun 17 01:14:13 2003 From: stopchristchurch@yahoo.com (Douglas Stambler) Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2003 17:14:13 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Vision2020] Christ Church to close by January 2004 - thank you all Message-ID: <20030617001413.1052.qmail@web20507.mail.yahoo.com> --0-82442379-1055808853=:98609 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Christ Church to close by January 2004 - thank you all --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! --0-82442379-1055808853=:98609 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Christ Church to close by January 2004 - thank you all

Do you Yahoo!?
SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! --0-82442379-1055808853=:98609-- From dale@courtneys.us Tue Jun 17 01:17:13 2003 From: dale@courtneys.us (Dale Courtney) Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2003 17:17:13 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] Christ Church to close by January 2004 - thank you all References: <20030617001413.1052.qmail@web20507.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <03a101c33465$cec7fce0$6400a8c0@DMCLAPTOP2> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_039E_01C3342B.20FF0D90 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable We'll see if the "Prophet of the World" becomes mute and has his mouth = shut on 1 Feb 2004.=20 Bets?=20 Best, Dale Courtney Moscow, Idaho ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Douglas Stambler=20 To: vision2020@moscow.com=20 Sent: Monday, June 16, 2003 17:14 Subject: [Vision2020] Christ Church to close by January 2004 - thank = you all Christ Church to close by January 2004 - thank you all=20 -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ----- Do you Yahoo!? SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! ------=_NextPart_000_039E_01C3342B.20FF0D90 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
We'll see if the "Prophet of the World" becomes mute = and has=20 his mouth shut on 1 Feb 2004.
 
Bets?
 
Best,
Dale Courtney
Moscow, Idaho
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Douglas Stambler
Sent: Monday, June 16, 2003 = 17:14
Subject: [Vision2020] Christ = Church to=20 close by January 2004 - thank you all

Christ Church to close by January 2004 - thank you all=20

Do you Yahoo!?
SBC=20 Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! ------=_NextPart_000_039E_01C3342B.20FF0D90-- From donovanarnold@hotmail.com Tue Jun 17 04:04:02 2003 From: donovanarnold@hotmail.com (Donovan Arnold) Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2003 20:04:02 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] Douglas Stambler's slanderous emails Message-ID:

Well,

At least we all now know for sure it was Douglas Stambler who was sending and flooding Vision2020 with all those stupid one liners on here and attacking everyone. For once, me and Dale agree on something. : ) Mr. Stambler was caught a while back trying to unsubscribe everyone he didn't like from Vision2020.

Donovan J Arnold

 

>From: "Dale Courtney"

>To:
>Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Christ Church to close by January 2004 - thank you all
>Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2003 17:17:13 -0700
>
>We'll see if the "Prophet of the World" becomes mute and has his mouth shut on 1 Feb 2004.
>
>Bets?
>
>Best,
>Dale Courtney
>Moscow, Idaho
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Douglas Stambler
> To: vision2020@moscow.com
> Sent: Monday, June 16, 2003 17:14
> Subject: [Vision2020] Christ Church to close by January 2004 - thank you all
>
>
> Christ Church to close by January 2004 - thank you all
>
>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Do you Yahoo!?
> SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month!

Add photos to your e-mail with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. From donovanarnold@hotmail.com Tue Jun 17 04:33:27 2003 From: donovanarnold@hotmail.com (Donovan Arnold) Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2003 20:33:27 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] FOX Bogus News Message-ID: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_3351_44a1_7d41 Content-Type: text/html



I don't know about all of you but I have been thinking that FOX News has become a bit of a tabloid news station. Someone emailed this to me and I thought you might want to look it over as proof that FOX reports false news with incompetent reporters. Read below and judge for yourself. FOX NEWS "Gore wins Florida" FOX NEWS: Nov. 7th 2000"

Donovan J Arnold

~~for educational purposes only~~
[Title 17 U.S.C. section 107]

Fibbing It Up at Fox
by Dale Steinreich

  Flat out lies should be confronted
  ~ Bill O'Reilly; Fox News Channel; May 22, 2003

Since the Iraq conflict began on March 20, Fox News
has been on a mission to legitimize it.One problem
for Fox's protracted apologia is that despite promises
of evidence of current weapons of mass destruction
(WMDs) by the Bush Administration, the evidence has
been ambiguous at best. Unfortunately for the
network, I've been keeping a scratch diary of their
reports since the war began.

Keep in mind that in the first three weeks of March,
before the bombs started officially dropping, Fox
was spreading all sorts of Pentagon propaganda.
Iraq had "drones" that it could quickly dispatch to
major U.S. metropolitan areas to spread biological
agents.Saddam was handing out chemical weapons
to the Republican ! guard to use against coalition
troops in a last-ditch red-zone ring around
Baghdad.Given what we now know about Iraq,
these reports seem to be laughable fantasies, but
they were effective in securing public backing for
the war.The following is a short chronicle of lies,
propagation of lies, exaggerations, distortions, spin,
and conjecture presented as fact. My comments are
in brackets [ ]s.

March 14:On The Fox Report anchor Shepard
Smith reports that Saddam is planning to use flood
water as a weapon by blowing up dams and causing
severe flood damage.

March 19:Fox anchor Shepard Smith reports that
Iraqis are planning to detonate large stores of
napalm buried deep below the earth to scorch
coalition forces. Fox Military Analyst Major Bob
Bevelacqua states that coalition forces will drop a
MOAB on Saddam's bunker [!!] and give him the
"Mother of All Sunburns."

[After my last article, one sniveling neocon a! fter
another wrote me to tell me I was unqualified to
assess def ense matters because I wasn't a "defense
analyst" (never mind that the article wasn't on the
war, and the "real" defense experts made one wrong
prediction after another on this war).It's interesting
how these sniveling Frumsters cheer on the
college-uneducated Hannity and Limbaugh when
they make defense analyses supporting the neocon
view.I do know enough to say that the informed
Bevelacqua's suggestion that a MOAB would be
used on a bunker was puzzling to say the least
(given the reports of less-than-dazzling performance
of daisy cutters outside caves in Tora Bora).
Anyway, later reports confirmed that GBU-28
bunker busters were used during The Decapitation
That Apparently Failed.]

March 23: The network begins 2 days of
unequivocal assertions that a 100-acre facility
discovered by coalition forces at An Najaf is a
chemical weapons plant. Much is made about the
fact that it was booby trapped.A former UN
weapons ! inspector interviewed on camera over the
phone downplays the WMD allegations and says
that booby-trapping is common.His points are
ignored as unequivocal charges of a chemical
weapons facility are made on Fox for yet another
day (March 24).Only weeks later is it briefly
conceded that the chemicals definitively detected at
the facility were pesticides.

[Jennifer Eccleston has to be the worst reporter
employed by any network.She began one segment
with a "Hi there!"  in no response to any segue
from the relaying anchor at Fox headquarters in
New York.Her bangs are long and constantly
blowing in her face in the wind.Her head wobbles
from side to side with her nose tracing out a figure
8 all the while arbitrarily syncopating a monotone
voice with overemphasis on the last syllables of
different words (e.g., Bagh-DAD').The old,
white-haired flag-waving yahoos like her not for
her professionalism  she has none&n! bsp; but because of
her innocent Britney Spearsesque beauty; i.e., she's
a typical young piece of meat which dirty old men
with too much time on their hands fantasize about.]

March 24:Oliver North reports that the staff at the
French embassy in Baghdad are destroying
documents.[How could he know this?]

March 24: Fox and Friends. Anchor Juliet Huddy
asks Colonel David hunt why coalition forces don't
"blow up" Al Jazeera TV. [The context of the
discussion makes it clear that she doesn't know the
difference between Al Jazeera and Iraqi TV!!!!
Juliet Huddy is a beautiful woman but not very
bright.]

March 28:Repeated assertions by Fox News
anchors of a red ring around Baghdad in which
Republican Guard forces were planning to use
chemical weapons on coalition forces.A Fox
"Breaking News" flash reports that Iraqi soldiers
were seen by coalition forces moving 55-gallon
drums almost certainly containing chemical agents.

April 7:Fox, echoing NPR, reports that U.S. forces
n! ear Baghdad have discovered a weapons cache of
20 medium-range missiles containing sarin and
mustard gas. Initial tests show that the deadly
chemicals are not "trace elements."

[In the coming weeks, this embarrassing
non-discovery is quickly stomped down the
Memory Hole.The missiles were never mentioned
again.]

April 9:The crowd around coalition troops
toppling the Saddam statue in Baghdad looks
strangely sparse despite the network's assertions to
the contrary.The perspective is always in close
and even then there is no mob storming the statue to
hit it with their shoes. Just a handful of people.It's
constantly asserted that there's a huge crowd.[I'm
perplexed.Where's the huge crowd?!]

April 10:Fox "Breaking News" report of
weapons-grade plutonium found at Al Tuwaitha.
[In the coming weeks this "discovery" was
expeditiously shoved down the Memory Hole as
well.]

April 10 (2:59 EDT):A report noting! with surprise
"how little" the Iraqis were celebrating the
coal ition invasion.[An interesting contradiction of
the allegations of widespread celebration just the
day before with the toppling of the Saddam statue.]

April 10 (3 p.m. EDT: Reporter Rick Leventhal)
Fox "Breaking News" report:A mobile
bioweapons lab is found.Video of a tiny tan
truckabout the size of the smallest truck that
U-Haul rents  which had its cargo bed and fuel
tank shot up with bullets after a looter tried to drive
it away. Repeated assertions that this is most
definitely a "bioweapons" lab.A graphic sequence
is shown of a large Winnebago-type vehicle that is
massive compared to the tiny truck found.The
irony of this escapes the Fox newscasters and
defense "experts."

[This was the first "bioweapons lab" found, not the
larger one later found in Mosul.A week later it is
briefly conceded that the tiny truck was probably
never a bio weapons lab, but promises that real
ones will pour forth from the lan! dscape continue.
The second phantom lab, a large tractor-trailer
truck was discovered around May 2 by Kurdish
fighters.]

April 10:To show that France is in bed with
Saddam Hussein, Fox begins running old footage of
Saddam Hussein's September 1975 trip to Paris to
meet with Jacques Chirac and tour a nuclear power
plant.[Because Fox strives so hard to be "Fair and
Balanced," it's all the more curious how it fails to
inform its audience about another trip four years
later, this one to Baghdad on December 19, 1983
made by Reagan envoy and then former secretary of
defense Donald Rumsfeld (see pic below).The
network again, because it's so very "Fair and
Balanced," also inexplicably forgot to tell its
audience about another trip by Rummy to Baghdad,
this time on March 24, 1984, the very same day that
a U.N. team found that Iraqi forces had used
mustard gas laced with a nerve agent on Iranian
soldiers.Rummy obviously w! asn't too concerned
about the charges of gassing, as in 1986 when h e
was considering a run for the Republican
presidential nomination of 1988, he listed his
restoration of diplomatic relations with
WMD-using Iraq as one of his proudest
achievements.

But all that's an eternity ago for Imperial Conservatives
with a 20-second attention span.  The Fox newscasters
rename Jacques Chirac "Jacques Iraq"(yuk, yuk, yuk  what
a side splitter!) and keep going.]

April 7:Repeated ominous footage of barrels
buried in a below-ground shed near Karbala.The
implication is that the Iraqi landscape is replete
with these types of shelters, all of them brimming
with evidence of chemical weapons.[These were
revealed to be agricultural chemicals as well.]

April 13:Fox Graphic:"Bush:Syria Harboring
Chemical Weapons."

[My favorite Fox war commentator is definitely
Colonel David Hunt.From my canvassing of all the
cable network war coverage, it's hard to find an
analyst who is more! dogmatic.When coalition
forces weren't greeted with hugs and kisses like he
predicted and instead encountered stiff resistance
from Iraqi forces in Basra and other places, Davey
was all denial.Everything's going perfect.Rummy
is God, hallelujah and praise Dubya!There's not a
problem in Iraq that can't be solved by blowing
some Iraqi's brains out.]

April 15:Fox analyst Mansoor Ijaz claims that the
top 55 Iraqi leaders (along with the whole stash of
chemical and biological WMDs they have taken
with them) are now living it up in Latakia, Syria.
[This is the same 55 that appeared on the deck of
cards and is still being captured  far from all
living it up in Syria.]On The Fox Report anchor
Shepard Smith completely breaks with any pretense
of objectivity and openly mocks actor Tim Robbins
after playing an excerpt of Robbins' speech to the
National Press Club."Oh, that was so powerful!"
Smith mocked.[Impressive obj! ectivity there, Mr.
Smith.]

April 16:Fred Barnes on Special Report with Brit
Hume blames the looting of the Iraqi National
Museum on the museum staff.[Right now there are
so many claims and counterclaims about the looting
it's hard to tell what happened.In a Fox segment on
May 19 a coalition official asserted that 170,000
items were definitely not missing.Of course he
refused to give a ballpark estimate of what was
missing, which he'd surely have in order to
plausibly deny that the original estimate was
wrong.]

April 18:Bill O'Reilly opens his show calling
Iraqis "ungrateful."

April 21:Bill O'Reilly opens his show calling
Iraqi Shiites "ungrateful SOBs" and "fanatics."He
concludes that "[we] can't tolerate a fundamentalist
state" in Iraq.

[Whoa, O'Reilly.I thought we promised the Iraqis
that we were going to implement democracy, not
democracy that gives the U.S. the election results it
wants.That's not democracy, now, is it?By now
it's quite clear that despite! the spinning on The No
Spin Zone, Iraq is descending into chaos.]

April 22:Lt. Colonel Robert Maginnis states on
The O'Reilly Factor that the probability of finding
WMDs is a 10 out of 10.[This is the same Robert
Maginnis who predicted a double-ring defense of
Baghdad in the Washington Times on January 7.]
O'Reilly states that if no WMDs are found within
a month from today, then that spells big trouble.
O'Reilly promises to explore the issue a month
later. [Cool, let's hold his feet to the fire on that
promise.On an earlier show he said that U.S.
credibility would be "shot" if no WMDs were
found. ]

May 8: Fox News Military Analyst Major General
Paul Vallely states on The O'Reilly Factor that
"Middle East agents" have told him that Iraq's
WMDs along with 17 mobile weapons labs (1 of
which was captured around May 2) are now buried
in the Bakaa Valley in Syria 30 meters
underground.He also claims that France ! helped
Iraqi leaders escape to Europe by providing them
with tra vel papers [a charge that even the Pentagon
later denies although it's apparent that's where
Vallely got his information].

May 11:On The Fox Report with Rick Folbaum it
is conceded that the nefarious captured trailer
contains not a shred of evidence of WMDs, but
Folbaum hints that what's important is that the
trailer could have been used to make them.
  [Hmmm.I thought we went to war for actual
WMDs, not for the ability to make WMDs.]

May 16:Special Report with Brit Hume.
Muslims, citing Islam's ban of alcohol, are torching
liquor stores and threatening their Christian owners.
Under Saddam's secular regime, Christian names
were banned and schools were nationalized, but
guns and alcohol were freely available; there was
tolerance for Iraq's 1 million Catholic and
Protestant Christians.In New and Improved
Neocon Iraq, there's a letter circulating in Baghdad
threatening violence to even the families of womenwho refuse to wear the traditional Muslim head
covering.[The report is yet another interesting and
reluctant concession of unintended consequences.]


May 19:O'Reilly discusses a number of
inflammatory and bogus charges that were floated in
the U.S. media about France (e.g., France supplied
Iraq with precision switches used in nuclear
weapons, French companies sold spare parts to Iraq
for military planes and helicopters, France
possessed illegal strains of smallpox, France
helped Iraqi leaders escape to Europe by providing
them with travel papers).Recall this last charge
was made by Major General Paul Vallely on May 8
on The O'Reilly Factor.Again, the Pentagon
denies all such charges although much of the
Beltway thinks it's obvious that the Pentagon is the
source of them.O'Reilly claims that Vallely is only
irresponsible if the charges don't turn out to be true.
O'Reilly refers to documents that prove that theFrench government was briefing Saddam right until
the war started. [Briefed on what?]

May 20:O'Reilly concedes that the Private Jessica
Lynch rescue story could be a fraud, as asserted by
the BBC and Los Angeles Times columnist Robert
Scheer."Somebody is lying," he states.He says
that if the U.S. military has concocted a fraud, then
it will be a terrible scandal but if the BBC and
Scheer are wrong, nothing will happen to them.He
says he is skeptical of the BBC and Scheer.

To prove his point he brings on no other than
Colonel David Hunt.[Geez.Transcript here.]
Over and over, Hunt calls the allegations of staged
rescue an "assail on the finest soldiers in the
world."He claims that the ambulance with Lynch
in it that drove up to a Marine checkpoint was never
shot at, its drivers demanded $10,000 for
information on Jessica, Saddam Hospital was
guarded by uniformed Iraqi soldiers and Fedayeen,
Jessica's life was saved, and coalition forces didn't
trash the hospital.What were his s! ources for this
information?The special ops members on the raid,
some of whom are his friends and former
colleagues.Over and over Hunt kept saying,
"They're the best soldiers in the world, they're the
best in the world.Why would they make this up?"

[What followed next was an exchange that's
priceless and one of many that goes by far too
un-analyzed on Fox every day:]

Hunt:In my opinion it's an assault, an effrontery to
the finest men and women in our service, it's an
assault on Jessica, it's an assault on these great
guys, these great special operations guys ... at a
minimum we should no longer buy the L.A. Times,
no longer buy the Toronto Free Press, and shut the
BBC off.It's a government to government
issue...this is calling into question the veracity of
the finest soldiers in the world and it's uncalled for,
it's absolutely unbelievable."

O'Reilly:If you [Hunt] turn out to be right, nothing
will happ! en to Scheer...he'll just go along blithely
printing his lies and l iving his life and getting paid
for it.

[To the Colonel:U.S. special ops soldiers may be
the best in the world at what they do, but how does
it logically follow from that assessment that
particular actions taken during the raid were not
excessive and unjustified? How is the BBC's story
an assault on Jessica?!What do you mean when
you mention a "government to government issue"
given that the U.S. government now controls Iraq?!
Is the Pentagon the most effective check on its own
possible misdeeds? How convenient if you're
suggesting that it is.Who is your source that Iraqi
doctors were trying to ransom Jessica?Why hasn't
this allegation made its way into any other news
reports?]

[To O'Reilly:If the raid does turn out to be mostly
staged, there'll be no terrible scandal precisely
because you, Fox News, and the Pentagon will
assert just the opposite and allow yet another
embarrassment to slide into the Memory Ho! le.This
is exactly why your demand for accountability from
the BBC and L.A. Times is so hollow and
hypocritical.Instead of plumbing the U.S. military
to investigate itself, why don't you interview Iraqi
doctor Harith al-Houssona as the London Times did
on April 16 (where the story was first broken, not
by the BBC or Robert Scheer) who actually saved
Lynch's life instead of the U.S. special ops who
could have jeopardized it?The doctor testifies that
all Iraqi forces left the day before the raid and that
Jessica was delivered by an ambulance that had to
return to the hospital because it was shot at by
Marines.Why would he lie?You say you
automatically trust the Pentagon. Why, when tales
of Lynch's heroics in fighting off 500 Iraqi soldiers
with one hand while severely wounded and tales
that she had amnesia have already been proven
bogus?]

May 22 (5:54 a.m. CDT):Richard King, a military
doctor, appears on Fox and ! Friends with promises
by the show's hosts that he will verify that the
Jessica Lynch rescue wasn't staged.King doesn't
prove anything.He states that he arrived at Saddam
Hospital the day after the rescue, concedes damage
and mal-treatment of doctors at the hospital, and
that he "was told " that the hospital was guarded by
hostile forces but doesn't specify who told him.
[The testimony of the hospital staff contradicts this
last hearsay.]

May 22:O'Reilly fails to live up to his promise to
make a big stink if no WMDs are found by today.In
his Talking Points Memo he wonders why the U.S.
has caught such informed Iraqis as Dr. Germ and
Ms. Anthrax and has gotten no leads.He states that
more time is needed [contradicting what he said
more than a month ago, when he said that if no
WMDs were found after 2 months U.S. credibility
would be "shot" and there would be big trouble].
He ends his Memo saying Bush must candidly
address the situation soon.

June 2:[Unfortunately for O'Reilly,! Bush isn't
candidly explaining anything.]A video clip on Fox
and Friends is shown with Bush in Poland claiming
that "[w]e found" weapons of mass destruction.His
evidence?Two trailers found near Mosul that were
supposedly used as mobile bioweapons labs.[A
June 7 article by the Times' Judith Miller reports
serious doubts by some analysts that the two trailers
were used as mobile bioweapons labs. Said one
senior analyst about the initial CIA report, it "was a
rushed job and looks political." Yes, they violated
U.N. resolutions but this is another red herring to
suggest WMDs.]

June 4:O'Reilly's Talking Points Memo:
[Surreal.]O'Reilly says that the WMD issue has
now been politicized [!!]. The war was a just war
because there's now great progress between
Palestinians and Israelis and that alone made the
war worthwhile [?!!].Also the mass graves and
other horrors discovered add to the case for war.
The intelligence w! as either wrong or more time is
needed to find the WMDs.[Again cont radicting
what he said on and before April 22.]

June 11:Fox reports a bus blast in Jerusalem
caused by Hamas, killing 15 and wounding at least
100.[Looks like the real reason for war according
to O'Reilly (Israeli-Palestinian peace) has also
disintegrated, but don't expect O'Reilly to admit it.]



Protect your PC - Click here for McAfee.com VirusScan Online ------=_NextPart_000_3351_44a1_7d41 Content-Type: message/rfc822 X-Message-Info: cTX+9FGku41n+FzwOf3EyDRyrGhysO3u Received: from mc1-f24.law16.hotmail.com ([65.54.236.31]) by mc1-s18.law16.hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.5600); Mon, 16 Jun 2003 20:05:39 -0700 Received: from whale2.fsr.net ([207.141.26.23]) by mc1-f24.law16.hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.5600); Mon, 16 Jun 2003 20:05:38 -0700 Received: from whale2.fsr.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by whale2.fsr.net (8.12.3/8.12.3) with ESMTP id h5H356QU008641; Mon, 16 Jun 2003 20:05:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from vision2020-admin@moscow.com) Received: from psmtp.com (exprod5mx64.postini.com [12.158.34.177]) by whale2.fsr.net (8.12.3/8.12.3) with SMTP id h5H349QU007343 for ; Mon, 16 Jun 2003 20:04:09 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from donovanarnold@hotmail.com) Received: from source ([207.141.24.20]) by exprod5mx64.postini.com ([12.158.34.245]) with SMTP; Mon, 16 Jun 2003 21:04:02 MDT Received: from hotmail.com (law11-f72.law11.hotmail.com [64.4.17.72]) by fsr.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h5H346Q83191 for ; Mon, 16 Jun 2003 20:04:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from donovanarnold@hotmail.com) Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Mon, 16 Jun 2003 20:04:02 -0700 Received: from 172.195.244.136 by lw11fd.law11.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Tue, 17 Jun 2003 03:04:02 GMT X-Originating-IP: [172.195.244.136] X-Originating-Email: [donovanarnold@hotmail.com] From: "Donovan Arnold" To: dale@courtneys.us, vision2020@moscow.com Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Douglas Stambler's slanderous emails Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 17 Jun 2003 03:04:02.0296 (UTC) FILETIME=[1AE02780:01C3347D] Sender: vision2020-admin@moscow.com Errors-To: vision2020-admin@moscow.com X-BeenThere: vision2020@moscow.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.10 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Moscow/Latah county community discussion list List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2003 20:04:02 -0700 Return-Path: vision2020-admin@moscow.com

Well,

At least we all now know for sure it was Douglas Stambler who was sending and flooding Vision2020 with all those stupid one liners on here and attacking everyone. For once, me and Dale agree on something. : ) Mr. Stambler was caught a while back trying to unsubscribe everyone he didn't like from Vision2020.

Donovan J Arnold

 

>From: "Dale Courtney"

>To:
>Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Christ Church to close by January 2004 - thank you all
>Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2003 17:17:13 -0700
>
>We'll see if the "Prophet of the World" becomes mute and has his mouth shut on 1 Feb 2004.
>
>Bets?
>
>Best,
>Dale Courtney
>Moscow, Idaho
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Douglas Stambler
> To: vision2020@moscow.com
> Sent: Monday, June 16, 2003 17:14
> Subject: [Vision2020] Christ Church to close by January 2004 - thank you all
>
>
> Christ Church to close by January 2004 - thank you all
>
>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Do you Yahoo!?
> SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month!

Add photos to your e-mail with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. _____________________________________________________ List services made available by First Step Internet, serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994. http://www.fsr.net mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ ------=_NextPart_000_3351_44a1_7d41-- From stopchristchurch@yahoo.com Tue Jun 17 17:16:01 2003 From: stopchristchurch@yahoo.com (Douglas Stambler) Date: Tue, 17 Jun 2003 09:16:01 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Vision2020] Attention Bohemians: God's In Fashion Again! - thank you Message-ID: <20030617161601.1076.qmail@web20510.mail.yahoo.com> --0-137955558-1055866561=:653 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Attention Bohemians: God's In Fashion Again! - thank you --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! --0-137955558-1055866561=:653 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Attention Bohemians: God's In Fashion Again! - thank you

Do you Yahoo!?
SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! --0-137955558-1055866561=:653-- From stopchristchurch@yahoo.com Tue Jun 17 17:27:43 2003 From: stopchristchurch@yahoo.com (Moscow Fight Club) Date: Tue, 17 Jun 2003 09:27:43 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Vision2020] article: Woman Brain Dead After Boxing in Fla. Message-ID: <20030617162743.71275.qmail@web20512.mail.yahoo.com> --0-1375386787-1055867263=:69594 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Woman Brain Dead After Boxing in Fla. Police in Sarasota, Fla., Probe Toughman Amateur Boxing Contest That Left Woman Brain Dead The Associated Press SARASOTA, Fla. June 17 — A 30-year-old woman was brain dead and on life support Tuesday after being pummeled at a Toughman amateur boxing contest she had entered on the spur of the moment. Stacy Young suffered swelling and hemorrhaging in the brain from Saturday night's bout and doctors said they were no signs of activity in the brain stem, said Jodie Meyers, Young's older sister. "Everybody is consistent in giving us no hope," Meyers said. Police opened an investigation Tuesday to see if any laws were broken. Chuck Young said his wife, the mother of two, decided to compete after learning that the only woman who had signed up needed an opponent. "It's supposed to be fun," he said. "They tell us nobody's going to get hurt. The worst that could happen was to get a broken nose." At 240 pounds, Young outweighed her opponent by about 60 pounds. But in the first 30 seconds of the bout, family members knew it was an uneven match, Meyers said. Young nearly lasted all three rounds before falling the final time, Meyers said, adding that doctors told her any one of the many blows could have damaged Young's brain. The Toughman contest was started by businessman and boxing promoter Art Dore in Michigan in 1979. Paying a $50 entry fee, men and women compete in amateur boxing bouts for cash purses. At least three competitors have died in the last nine months, and some say the total number of deaths in the circuit's 24-year history is as high as nine. Several states have banned Toughman because of the dangers to untrained competitors. Dore has said he will continue staging the amateur fights, despite pressure from state regulators. Joelle English, head of public relations for AdoreAble Promotions, the event's parent company, said participants sign waivers releasing promoters from liability and have their heart rate and blood pressure checked by a doctor. Meyers said her family doubts that the woman Young fought was an amateur. Copyright 2003 The Associated Press. All rights reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten, or redistributed. --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! --0-1375386787-1055867263=:69594 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
Woman Brain Dead After Boxing in Fla.
Police in Sarasota, Fla., Probe Toughman Amateur Boxing Contest That Left Woman Brain Dead

The Associated Press


SARASOTA, Fla. June 17 —

A 30-year-old woman was brain dead and on life support Tuesday after being pummeled at a Toughman amateur boxing contest she had entered on the spur of the moment.

Stacy Young suffered swelling and hemorrhaging in the brain from Saturday night's bout and doctors said they were no signs of activity in the brain stem, said Jodie Meyers, Young's older sister.

"Everybody is consistent in giving us no hope," Meyers said.

Police opened an investigation Tuesday to see if any laws were broken.

Chuck Young said his wife, the mother of two, decided to compete after learning that the only woman who had signed up needed an opponent.

"It's supposed to be fun," he said. "They tell us nobody's going to get hurt. The worst that could happen was to get a broken nose."

At 240 pounds, Young outweighed her opponent by about 60 pounds. But in the first 30 seconds of the bout, family members knew it was an uneven match, Meyers said.

Young nearly lasted all three rounds before falling the final time, Meyers said, adding that doctors told her any one of the many blows could have damaged Young's brain.

The Toughman contest was started by businessman and boxing promoter Art Dore in Michigan in 1979. Paying a $50 entry fee, men and women compete in amateur boxing bouts for cash purses.

At least three competitors have died in the last nine months, and some say the total number of deaths in the circuit's 24-year history is as high as nine. Several states have banned Toughman because of the dangers to untrained competitors.

Dore has said he will continue staging the amateur fights, despite pressure from state regulators. Joelle English, head of public relations for AdoreAble Promotions, the event's parent company, said participants sign waivers releasing promoters from liability and have their heart rate and blood pressure checked by a doctor.

Meyers said her family doubts that the woman Young fought was an amateur.

Copyright 2003 The Associated Press. All rights reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten, or redistributed.

Do you Yahoo!?
SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! --0-1375386787-1055867263=:69594-- From donovanarnold@hotmail.com Wed Jun 18 02:18:40 2003 From: donovanarnold@hotmail.com (Donovan Arnold) Date: Tue, 17 Jun 2003 18:18:40 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] Bushenstein Cartoon Message-ID:

Hey,

Visit this site http://www.democrats.org/scotus/bushenstein.html. It is cheezy, but very funny.

Donovan J Arnold

>From: Douglas Stambler
>To: vision2020@moscow.com
>Subject: [Vision2020] Attention Bohemians: God's In Fashion Again! - thank you
>Date: Tue, 17 Jun 2003 09:16:01 -0700 (PDT)
>
>Attention Bohemians: God's In Fashion Again! - thank you
>
>
>---------------------------------
>Do you Yahoo!?
>SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month!

The new MSN 8: smart spam protection and 2 months FREE* From lukenieuwsma@softhome.net Wed Jun 18 02:36:44 2003 From: lukenieuwsma@softhome.net (Luke) Date: Tue, 17 Jun 2003 18:36:44 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] Christ Church to close by January 2004 - thank you all References: <20030617001413.1052.qmail@web20507.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <031e01c3353a$f3725ec0$2f00a8c0@MOBILELUKE> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_030C_01C334FF.673669F0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Looks like he really did lose his scrabble board, or perhaps his = marbles. Luke ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Douglas Stambler=20 To: vision2020@moscow.com=20 Sent: Monday, June 16, 2003 5:14 PM Subject: [Vision2020] Christ Church to close by January 2004 - thank = you all Christ Church to close by January 2004 - thank you all=20 -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ----- Do you Yahoo!? SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! ------=_NextPart_000_030C_01C334FF.673669F0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Looks like he really did lose his = scrabble board,=20 or perhaps his marbles.
 
Luke
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Douglas Stambler
Sent: Monday, June 16, 2003 = 5:14 PM
Subject: [Vision2020] Christ = Church to=20 close by January 2004 - thank you all

Christ Church to close by January 2004 - thank you all=20

Do you Yahoo!?
SBC=20 Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! ------=_NextPart_000_030C_01C334FF.673669F0-- From lukenieuwsma@softhome.net Wed Jun 18 02:38:51 2003 From: lukenieuwsma@softhome.net (Luke) Date: Tue, 17 Jun 2003 18:38:51 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] Religious Diversity Education References: Message-ID: <031f01c3353a$f43bf050$2f00a8c0@MOBILELUKE> Mr. Hansen: > " . . . but if two people see a blue house from the front and the back, and > one says it is a blue house and the other says it is green, one of them is > very wrong." > > The question then becomes "Which one?". In their own ways, each of them >are > right. Then the ref said, "Ok, kids, we've decided to make the game have no rules. Rules are so intolerant; they don't accept other ways of playing basketball, so we did away with them. In fact, you don't even have to put the ball through the hoop. Go to it!" Cheers, Luke Nieuwsma From stopchristchurch@yahoo.com Wed Jun 18 02:45:35 2003 From: stopchristchurch@yahoo.com (Cool Hand Luke) Date: Tue, 17 Jun 2003 18:45:35 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Vision2020] Showdown At The Christ Church Corral Message-ID: <20030618014535.48557.qmail@web20510.mail.yahoo.com> --0-1148030118-1055900735=:48278 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Showdown At The Christ Church Corral --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! --0-1148030118-1055900735=:48278 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Showdown At The Christ Church Corral

Do you Yahoo!?
SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! --0-1148030118-1055900735=:48278-- From donovanarnold@hotmail.com Wed Jun 18 03:37:20 2003 From: donovanarnold@hotmail.com (Donovan Arnold) Date: Tue, 17 Jun 2003 19:37:20 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] Religious Diversity Education Message-ID:

Luke,

You are making as much sense as led balloon. Worshiping isn't about what others think. It is not about rules. It is about recognizing and celebrating God. Who cares how you do it. Jews, Muslims, Christians, and Native Americans all worship the same God. They worship God in different ways, and they have different understandings of him. So what? We are all wrong in how we worship and how we perceive God, so is anyone worthy enough to criticize anyone else? I think not, only hypocrites do this. Do you honestly think that over a 3 billion people that call God by another name other then English translation of God or Jesus Christ would continue to do so if they got a disconnect signal? Muslims worship God 5 times a day, for about 5 hours a day. Do you leave your house and work five times a day to go worship at a temple with thousands of others? If you do, good, if not, you have zero room to complain or to preach to others about you being better and right and! them being wrong. I know that no man or women on Earth can possibly understand everything about God. So for you to presume you do and others with 3 times the education and 4 times the age, and 3 times the dedication to praying and worship, and nine times the experience don't know, it is awfully presumptuous of you. Don't you find it arrogant of God to only choose people what you think as being the only correct way? Don't you find it odd that you happen to be born in the correct faith, out of hundreds of others out there? Gee, what a coincidence. How precious of God to make sure you were saved while billions of other morons are allowed to follow false faiths. What are the odds of you being born in a nation full of Christians, hardly any Jews or Muslims, and that you would choose to become a Christian? Is this fate? Or maybe, it was the obvious outcome considering where you were born just like it is obvious conclusion that most people adopt the faiths of the nations, fa! milies, and communities they were born in. Most Muslims have parents t hat are Muslims, most Jews had parents that were Jewish, and most Christians have parents that are Christians. Wow! What are the odds of this? Please wake up Luke, you are no different that anyone else out there that is Christian, Muslim, Jewish, Hindu, Buddhist, or anything else. You were born into your faith, there is really good reason why God wants all these major faiths to last thousands of years.

Donovan J Arnold

>From: "Luke"
>To: thansen@moscow.com, "Donovan Arnold"
>CC: "vision2020"
>Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Religious Diversity Education
>Date: Tue, 17 Jun 2003 18:38:51 -0700
>
>Mr. Hansen:
>
> > " . . . but if two people see a blue house from the front and the back,
>and
> > one says it is a blue house and the other says it is green, one of them is
> > very wrong."
> >
> > The question then becomes "Which one?". In their own ways, each of them
> >are
> > right.
>
>Then the ref said, "Ok, kids, we've decided to make the game have no rules.
>Rules are so intolerant; they don't accept other ways of playing basketball,
>so we did away with them. In fact, you don't even have to put the ball
>through the hoop. Go to it!"
>
>Cheers,
>Luke Nieuwsma
>
>
>_____________________________________________________
> List services made available by First Step Internet,
> serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
> http://www.fsr.net
> mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com
>ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ

Add photos to your e-mail with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. From predator75@moscow.com Wed Jun 18 15:22:26 2003 From: predator75@moscow.com (Dan Carscallen) Date: Wed, 18 Jun 2003 07:22:26 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] Bushenstein Cartoon References: Message-ID: <006701c335a5$0b41e650$831da13f@MOSCOW1> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0064_01C3356A.5EAC1FD0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Looks like the left-wing indoctrination is still going strong in the = public schools . . . DC ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Donovan Arnold=20 To: vision2020@moscow.com=20 Sent: Tuesday, June 17, 2003 6:18 PM Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Bushenstein Cartoon Hey, Visit this site http://www.democrats.org/scotus/bushenstein.html. It is = cheezy, but very funny. Donovan J Arnold ------=_NextPart_000_0064_01C3356A.5EAC1FD0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Looks like the left-wing indoctrination is still going strong in = the public=20 schools . . .
 
DC
 
----- Original Message -----=20
From: Donovan=20 Arnold
Sent: Tuesday, June 17, 2003 6:18 PM
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Bushenstein Cartoon

Hey,

Visit this site http://www.demo= crats.org/scotus/bushenstein.html.=20 It is cheezy, but very funny.

Donovan J Arnold

------=_NextPart_000_0064_01C3356A.5EAC1FD0-- From stopchristchurch@yahoo.com Wed Jun 18 19:23:56 2003 From: stopchristchurch@yahoo.com (The Seer Speaks) Date: Wed, 18 Jun 2003 11:23:56 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Vision2020] THE REAL TRUTH ABOUT DOUGLAS STAMBLER Message-ID: <20030618182356.50682.qmail@web20512.mail.yahoo.com> --0-928456272-1055960636=:50674 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Douglas Stambler Head prophet of the world; a future President of the United States; a Christian - a pacifist; professional musician/songwriter www.stamblerdouglas.blogspot.com --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! --0-928456272-1055960636=:50674 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
Douglas Stambler
 
Head prophet of the world; a future President of the United States; a Christian - a pacifist; professional musician/songwriter
 
 

Do you Yahoo!?
SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! --0-928456272-1055960636=:50674-- From thansen@moscow.com Wed Jun 18 20:03:15 2003 From: thansen@moscow.com (thansen@moscow.com) Date: Wed, 18 Jun 2003 19:03:15 GMT Subject: [Vision2020] THE REAL TRUTH ABOUT DOUGLAS STAMBLER Message-ID: <200306181833.h5IIXdQU081920@whale2.fsr.net> Just when you thought it was safe enough to go outside. Tom Hansen Moscow, Idaho > Douglas Stambler > > Head prophet of the world; a future President of the United States; a Christian - a pacifist; professional musician/songwriter > > www.stamblerdouglas.blogspot.com > > > > > > --------------------------------- > Do you Yahoo!? > SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! --------------------------------------------- This message was sent by First Step Internet. http://www.fsr.net/ From thansen@moscow.com Wed Jun 18 20:15:37 2003 From: thansen@moscow.com (thansen@moscow.com) Date: Wed, 18 Jun 2003 19:15:37 GMT Subject: [Vision2020] Mr. Stambler for ? ? ? Message-ID: <200306181846.h5IIk1QU005081@whale2.fsr.net> Some of what Douglas Stambler claims to have done since arriving in Moscow, Idaho In April 2002: "4) Exposed ex-President Bob Hoover (University of Idaho) as a thief." And just how did you accomplish this, Mr. Stambler? "7) Spoken out against homosexuality in the Moscow-Pullman area." and "8) Organized a Christian boycott of Fred Phelps – who operates “godhatesfags.com.”" Let me see if I have this right. He spoke out against homosexuality and also spoke out against those who spoke out against homosexuality? "11) Worked as a writer and musician for a militia group in Kamiah, Idaho." That's what's missing from these anti-government militias!! A theme song. You go, girl. Tom Hansen Moscow, Idaho --------------------------------------------- This message was sent by First Step Internet. http://www.fsr.net/ From ttrail@moscow.com Wed Jun 18 23:53:00 2003 From: ttrail@moscow.com (Tom Trail) Date: Wed, 18 Jun 2003 14:53:00 -0800 Subject: [Vision2020] Moscow-Pullman Aquifer Message-ID: Visonaries: These are some thoughts that I shared with Bill London concerning our aquifer problem. The one established fact is that we are drawing the aquifer down about 18 inches a year. Former Rep. Gary Young and I obtained a $100,000 appropriation several years ago from the Idaho Legislature to help assist in studying the problem. I believe that most of the money would be used for monitoring and research studies. The budget meltdown swallowed up the appropriation. One has to take a long term view in terms of protecting our very valuable resource but short term measures must be implemented to protect against excess loss from the aquifer. When I worked with the Washington State Extension Service several years ago, I remember that the Dept. of Ecology was greatly concernedwith the number of new deep irrigation wells that farmers were putting in for irrigation. The various aquifers were going down at an alarming rate. The Department stopped all drilling for new wells and monitored all existing wells. Over a period of 10-15 years many of the aquifers were recharged and many rose 30-40 feet over the original benchmark. New permits were issued in some areas but careful monitoring continued. In several areas where the aquifer continued to decline some existing wells were shut down. This experience should be useful to us as we assess what to do to preserve our aquifer for today and future generations. There are obviously many short term strategies that can be used, ie. watering lawns on alternate days, using gray water for lawn watering, etc. We only have to look at the drought striken Southwest cities and towns to learn from their experiences. In regard to the Naylor water application--it is interesting to note that during a committee meeting during the 03 legislature, the Head of the Idaho Water Department said, "It is one thing to submit an application, and quite another thing to approve it." One can interpret that statement in different ways. Rep. Tom Trail/Dist. 6 -- Dr. Tom Trail International Trails 1375 Mt. View Rd. Moscow, Id. 83843 Tel: (208) 882-6077 Fax: (208) 882-0896 e mail ttrail@moscow.com From dale@courtneys.us Thu Jun 19 01:04:46 2003 From: dale@courtneys.us (Dale Courtney) Date: Wed, 18 Jun 2003 17:04:46 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] Moscow-Pullman Aquifer References: Message-ID: <005201c335f6$6558ef20$47147144@DMCLAPTOP2> Tom/Bill, Some quick questions/comments: 1. Who owns the aquifer? Is the aquifer a "common good" (where anyone can drill to it and pump out of it)? Or do only Moscow and Pullman have access to it? This matters, because even if you raise the price of water to $50/gal, people will drill their own wells to get to the water (or already have wells to the aquifer). 2. I investigated the use of gray water, and I'm all for it. However, until we make the laws so that it is cheaper to use gray water than it is to use city water, no one will have any incentive to do so. For instance, to use gray water in Moscow requires a complete, separate underground gray water system. I mean, it is seriously ridiculous that I can run a hose to my tub and siphon the water to the garden, but I cannot legally install a system to do the same thing! The cost to install one is so exorbitant that the payback is on the order of 10-15 years. If you *really* want to encourage the use of gray water, I would recommend some economic incentive to do so (changing the laws that ham-string those who want to; tax refunds; etc). 3. Finally, if you want to control the usage of an item, you need to control the cost of that item. But as long as people can get to the aquifer elsewhere (or others already have access to the aquifer to pump it "free"), you will only penalize those who live in the city. Best, Dale From lukenieuwsma@softhome.net Thu Jun 19 01:53:01 2003 From: lukenieuwsma@softhome.net (Luke) Date: Wed, 18 Jun 2003 17:53:01 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] Showdown At The Christ Church Corral References: <20030618014535.48557.qmail@web20510.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <03b701c335fd$33179f50$2f00a8c0@MOBILELUKE> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_03B2_01C335C2.75B8D1C0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Well, since Mr. Arnold thinks I'm made of lead, your shots will = richochet right off me, Stambler. Later, Luke ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Cool Hand Luke=20 To: vision2020@moscow.com=20 Sent: Tuesday, June 17, 2003 6:45 PM Subject: [Vision2020] Showdown At The Christ Church Corral Showdown At The Christ Church Corral=20 -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ----- Do you Yahoo!? SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! ------=_NextPart_000_03B2_01C335C2.75B8D1C0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Well, since Mr. Arnold thinks I'm made = of lead,=20 your shots will richochet right off me, Stambler.
Later,
Luke
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Cool Hand Luke
Sent: Tuesday, June 17, 2003 = 6:45=20 PM
Subject: [Vision2020] Showdown = At The=20 Christ Church Corral

Showdown At The Christ Church Corral=20

Do you Yahoo!?
SBC=20 Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! ------=_NextPart_000_03B2_01C335C2.75B8D1C0-- From london@moscow.com Thu Jun 19 15:34:13 2003 From: london@moscow.com (Bill London) Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2003 07:34:13 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] Fraud Alert References: Message-ID: <3EF1C9E5.35C15226@moscow.com> --------------4A55E2A77593272A0CAB3C0F Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I received two of these "Fraud Alerts" yesterday. They are bogus. I contacted Best Buys directly and discovered that the email system is flooded with these fake alerts. The goal of these "alerts" is to get people to submit their credit card numbers to "verify" that they did not buy the stuff mentioned in the email. The people at Best Buys said just delete the alert. BL Tomasine Eliezer wrote: > Dear customer, > > Recently we have received an order made by using your personal credit > card information. > This order was made online at our official BestBuy website on > 06/19/2003. > Our Fraud Department has some suspicions regarding this order and we > need you to visit a special Fraud Department page at our web store > where you can confirm or decline this transaction by providing us with > the correct information. > This e-mail address has been taken from National Credit Bureau. > > Click the link below to visit a special Fraud Department page to > resolve the cause of the problem. > BestBuy.com/fraud_department.html > - > ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ORDER# > 1095619 - STATUS: SUSPENDED > ITEMS PURCHASED > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Item No: 73890 > CDA-9815 In-Dash CD Player/Ai-Changer Controller > Price: $387.65 Qty: 2 Total: $775.3 > > --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > The order listed above has not yet been processed. > The reason for the delay in processing your order is: > > - UNVERIFIED SHIPPING ADDRESS > > - Information provided: > Shipping > 41 WINHAM ST > Staten Island, NY 10306 > United States > phone# 206-337-9843 > > In our effort to deter fraudulent transactions, we need your help in > providing us with the correct information. Your prompt response is > needed to avoid any unauthorized charges to your credit > card. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------Click > the link below to visit a special Fraud Department page to resolve the > cause of the problem. > BestBuy.com/fraud_department.html --------------4A55E2A77593272A0CAB3C0F Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I received two of these "Fraud Alerts" yesterday.
They are bogus.
I contacted Best Buys directly and discovered that the email system is flooded with these fake alerts.  The goal of these "alerts" is to get people to submit their credit card numbers to "verify" that they did not buy the stuff mentioned in the email.
The people at Best Buys said just delete the alert.
BL

Tomasine Eliezer wrote:

Dear customer,

Recently we have received an order made by using your personal credit card information.
This order was made online at our official BestBuy website on 06/19/2003.
Our Fraud Department has some suspicions regarding this order and we need you to visit a special Fraud Department page at our web store where you can confirm or decline this transaction by providing us with the correct information.
This e-mail address has been taken from National Credit Bureau.

Click the link below to visit a special Fraud Department page to resolve the cause of the problem.
BestBuy.com/fraud_department.html 
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ORDER# 1095619 - STATUS: SUSPENDED
ITEMS PURCHASED
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Item No: 73890
CDA-9815 In-Dash CD Player/Ai-Changer Controller
Price: $387.65   Qty: 2   Total: $775.3
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The order listed above has not yet been processed.
The reason for the delay in processing your order is:

- UNVERIFIED SHIPPING ADDRESS

- Information provided:
  Shipping
  41 WINHAM ST
  Staten Island, NY  10306
  United States
  phone# 206-337-9843

In our effort to deter fraudulent transactions, we need your help in providing us with the correct information. Your prompt response is needed to avoid any unauthorized charges to your credit card. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------Click the link below to visit a special Fraud Department page to resolve the cause of the problem.
BestBuy.com/fraud_department.html

--------------4A55E2A77593272A0CAB3C0F-- From dickow@uidaho.edu Thu Jun 19 20:55:37 2003 From: dickow@uidaho.edu (Robert Dickow) Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2003 12:55:37 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] Fraud Alert Message-ID: <002001c3369c$c1e69ca0$0100a8c0@Cosmo> About this fraud alert, my wife got one of these too. I'm a little skeptical about BestBuy.com's explanation. First of all, to whom would people respond with their information? Return mail? But the 'fraud alert' has two links to BestBuy.com's website. Most people would use the link first, since it points to a 'fraud report' page. But doing so would be the end of the line for the allegded crooks since the page does not exist, and the ruse becomes obvious. Return mail is dangerous for crooks too. So, I'm wondering if this is a devious piece of spam, designed to get people to go to the BestBuy.com website. I've heard of schemes such as this. If this turns out to be what has been happening with this mailing, it is alarming and deceptive at best. After all, in 5,000 hits, 300 or more people will actually buy something, and many of these companies just play the odds, and getting people to the site is what produces sales. BestBuy.com or an 'anonymous' agent of BestBuy.com has motive. Bob Dickow ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bill London" To: "Vision2020" Sent: Thursday, June 19, 2003 7:34 AM Subject: [Vision2020] Fraud Alert > I received two of these "Fraud Alerts" yesterday. > They are bogus. > I contacted Best Buys directly and discovered that the email system is > flooded with these fake alerts. The goal of these "alerts" is to get > people to submit their credit card numbers to "verify" that they did not > buy the stuff mentioned in the email. > The people at Best Buys said just delete the alert. > BL > > Tomasine Eliezer wrote: > > > Dear customer, > > > > Recently we have received an order made by using your personal credit > > card information. > > This order was made online at our official BestBuy website on > > 06/19/2003. > > Our Fraud Department has some suspicions regarding this order and we > > need you to visit a special Fraud Department page at our web store > > where you can confirm or decline this transaction by providing us with > > the correct information. > > This e-mail address has been taken from National Credit Bureau. > > > > Click the link below to visit a special Fraud Department page to > > resolve the cause of the problem. > > BestBuy.com/fraud_department.html > > - > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- --------------------------------------------------------------ORDER# > > 1095619 - STATUS: SUSPENDED > > ITEMS PURCHASED > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- --------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > Item No: 73890 > > CDA-9815 In-Dash CD Player/Ai-Changer Controller > > Price: $387.65 Qty: 2 Total: $775.3 > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------- > > > > The order listed above has not yet been processed. > > The reason for the delay in processing your order is: > > > > - UNVERIFIED SHIPPING ADDRESS > > > > - Information provided: > > Shipping > > 41 WINHAM ST > > Staten Island, NY 10306 > > United States > > phone# 206-337-9843 > > > > In our effort to deter fraudulent transactions, we need your help in > > providing us with the correct information. Your prompt response is > > needed to avoid any unauthorized charges to your credit > > card. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- --------------------------------------------------------------------Click > > the link below to visit a special Fraud Department page to resolve the > > cause of the problem. > > BestBuy.com/fraud_department.html > From sunilramalingam@hotmail.com Thu Jun 19 21:19:42 2003 From: sunilramalingam@hotmail.com (Sunil Ramalingam) Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2003 13:19:42 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] Fraud Alert Message-ID:

Bob,

Who cares if it's deceptive?  BestBuy has such neat fun stuff!  They really are the Best!

Sunil


Add photos to your messages with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. From rforce@moscow.com Thu Jun 19 21:42:14 2003 From: rforce@moscow.com (Ron Force) Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2003 13:42:14 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] Fraud Alert In-Reply-To: <002001c3369c$c1e69ca0$0100a8c0@Cosmo> Message-ID: The apparent link to the BestBuy page is a fraud-- it actually sends you to somewhere else: here's the expalnation from the Urban Ledgends Website: "This message is a scam designed to trick you into revealing personal information, including your home address, telephone number and credit card number, to identity thieves. Do NOT visit the site linked from the email, nor fill out any forms you find there. The "Fraud Department" page may look like it belongs to the official BestBuy.com Website, but it does not... In the present case the link as it appears in the email seems to go to www.BestBuy.com/fraud_department.html (a page which never existed in the first place), but actually sends users to a Website with a completely different domain name, not to mention a completely different agenda. ******************************************** Ron Force rforce@moscow.com Moscow Idaho USA ******************************************** > -----Original Message----- > From: vision2020-admin@moscow.com [mailto:vision2020-admin@moscow.com]On > Behalf Of Robert Dickow > Sent: Thursday, June 19, 2003 12:56 PM > To: Vision2020@moscow.com > Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Fraud Alert > > > About this fraud alert, my wife got one of these too. I'm a > little skeptical > about BestBuy.com's explanation. First of all, to whom would > people respond > with their information? Return mail? But the 'fraud alert' has > two links to > BestBuy.com's website. Most people would use the link first, > since it points > to a 'fraud report' page. But doing so would be the end of the > line for the > allegded crooks since the page does not exist, and the ruse > becomes obvious. > Return mail is dangerous for crooks too. So, I'm wondering if this is a > devious piece of spam, designed to get people to go to the BestBuy.com > website. I've heard of schemes such as this. If this turns out to be what > has been happening with this mailing, it is alarming and > deceptive at best. > After all, in 5,000 hits, 300 or more people will actually buy something, > and many of these companies just play the odds, and getting people to the > site is what produces sales. BestBuy.com or an 'anonymous' agent of > BestBuy.com has motive. > > Bob Dickow > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Bill London" > To: "Vision2020" > Sent: Thursday, June 19, 2003 7:34 AM > Subject: [Vision2020] Fraud Alert > > > > I received two of these "Fraud Alerts" yesterday. > > They are bogus. > > I contacted Best Buys directly and discovered that the email system is > > flooded with these fake alerts. The goal of these "alerts" is to get > > people to submit their credit card numbers to "verify" that they did not > > buy the stuff mentioned in the email. > > The people at Best Buys said just delete the alert. > > BL > > > > Tomasine Eliezer wrote: > > > > > Dear customer, > > > > > > Recently we have received an order made by using your personal credit > > > card information. > > > This order was made online at our official BestBuy website on > > > 06/19/2003. > > > Our Fraud Department has some suspicions regarding this order and we > > > need you to visit a special Fraud Department page at our web store > > > where you can confirm or decline this transaction by providing us with > > > the correct information. > > > This e-mail address has been taken from National Credit Bureau. > > > > > > Click the link below to visit a special Fraud Department page to > > > resolve the cause of the problem. > > > BestBuy.com/fraud_department.html > > > - > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- > --------------------------------------------------------------ORDER# > > > 1095619 - STATUS: SUSPENDED > > > ITEMS PURCHASED > > > > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- > --------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > > > Item No: 73890 > > > CDA-9815 In-Dash CD Player/Ai-Changer Controller > > > Price: $387.65 Qty: 2 Total: $775.3 > > > > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- > ------------------------- > > > > > > The order listed above has not yet been processed. > > > The reason for the delay in processing your order is: > > > > > > - UNVERIFIED SHIPPING ADDRESS > > > > > > - Information provided: > > > Shipping > > > 41 WINHAM ST > > > Staten Island, NY 10306 > > > United States > > > phone# 206-337-9843 > > > > > > In our effort to deter fraudulent transactions, we need your help in > > > providing us with the correct information. Your prompt response is > > > needed to avoid any unauthorized charges to your credit > > > > card. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > --------------------------------------------------------------------Click > > > the link below to visit a special Fraud Department page to resolve the > > > cause of the problem. > > > BestBuy.com/fraud_department.html > > > > > _____________________________________________________ > List services made available by First Step Internet, > serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994. > http://www.fsr.net > mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com > ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ > From tomh@FNA.fsn.uidaho.edu Thu Jun 19 21:44:21 2003 From: tomh@FNA.fsn.uidaho.edu (Thomas Hansen) Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2003 13:44:21 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] Fraud Alert Message-ID: <165F697BE456F14EA4529F6B7BB6D4FC1F6F9E@daffy.dfm.uidaho.edu> This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C336A3.8FC027D0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I have always been impressed with Best Buy. My wife and I do alot of internet shopping there. =20 I seriously believe that Best Buy is above such childish pranks. =20 Tom Hansen Moscow, Idaho -----Original Message----- From: Sunil Ramalingam [mailto:sunilramalingam@hotmail.com] Sent: Thursday, June 19, 2003 1:20 PM To: dickow@uidaho.edu; Vision2020@moscow.com Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Fraud Alert Bob, Who cares if it's deceptive? BestBuy has such neat fun stuff! They = really are the Best! Sunil _____ =20 Add photos to your messages with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. _____________________________________________________ List services = made available by First Step Internet, serving the communities of the = Palouse since 1994. http://www.fsr.net mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com =AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF= =AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF= =AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=20 ------_=_NextPart_001_01C336A3.8FC027D0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I have=20 always been impressed with Best Buy.  My wife and I do alot of = internet=20 shopping there.
 
I=20 seriously believe that Best Buy is above such childish=20 pranks.
 
Tom=20 Hansen
Moscow, Idaho
-----Original Message-----
From: Sunil Ramalingam=20 [mailto:sunilramalingam@hotmail.com]
Sent: Thursday, June = 19, 2003=20 1:20 PM
To: dickow@uidaho.edu;=20 Vision2020@moscow.com
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Fraud=20 Alert

Bob,

Who cares if it's deceptive?  BestBuy has such neat fun = stuff! =20 They really are the Best!

Sunil


Add photos to your messages with MSN 8. Get 2 = months FREE*.=20 _____________________________________________________ List services = made=20 available by First Step Internet, serving the communities of the = Palouse since=20 1994. http://www.fsr.net mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com=20 = =AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF= =AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF= =AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=20
------_=_NextPart_001_01C336A3.8FC027D0-- From stopchristchurch@yahoo.com Thu Jun 19 23:04:30 2003 From: stopchristchurch@yahoo.com (Christ Cherch) Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2003 15:04:30 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Vision2020] Are WE Frauds Too? Message-ID: <20030619220430.87963.qmail@web20505.mail.yahoo.com> --0-1726823750-1056060270=:86539 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Are WE Frauds Too? --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! --0-1726823750-1056060270=:86539 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
 Are WE Frauds Too?

Do you Yahoo!?
SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! --0-1726823750-1056060270=:86539-- From johnmoss@moscow.com Thu Jun 19 23:08:13 2003 From: johnmoss@moscow.com (John Moss) Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2003 15:08:13 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] Fraud Alert References: <165F697BE456F14EA4529F6B7BB6D4FC1F6F9E@daffy.dfm.uidaho.edu> Message-ID: <003801c336af$46f824b0$0f188dcf@moonfish> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0035_01C33674.9A857690 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable >From my informal depths of knowledge on scams and spams (due to many = uninitiated hours of research), I definitely agree with Tom that this is = not a BestBuy "childish prank." If anyone would have clicked on the link provided in the original = message from Bill London, they would have seen that it would have tried = to open the web address = http://www.your-instant-credit-reporter.org/fraud.html in their browser, = rather than the web address BestBuy.com/fraud_department.html. This is = a simple HTML trick, and easily explainable, for those who really care = to know. A brief WhoIS domain lookup reveals that there is no such website = http://www.your-instant-credit-reporter.org/. Other "fraud" giveaways in the email are: 1. Opening with "Dear customer" -- in our digital age, especially with = online ordering, any message from an online business to a customer would = use the customer's name in the greeting. 2. Referring to the website as the "official BestBuy" website. Not a = total giveway, but I have never seen Amazon, eBay, etc., refer to their = own websites as the "official" website. The very fact that an email has = to say that the website is official, means its authority is in question, = and so they have to put those fears out of the way. =20 (I've been to numerous scam websites which refer to their "100% = satisfaction guaranteed" policy. Sure, guys. Promise us the moon on a = silver platter.) 3. Grammatical and punctuation errors throughout the email. Any message = sent from a big online business like BestBuy or Amazon, etc., will be = highly polished and won't have glaring grammatical errors. 4. Excessive use of the word "special" when referring to the "Fraud = Department." This isn't just any fraud department; this is a *special* = fraud department. Not only that, they themselves are fraud. There are a couple of other "fraud" flags in that email, but I'll leave = it at that. John ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Thomas Hansen=20 To: 'Sunil Ramalingam' ; dickow@uidaho.edu ; Vision2020@moscow.com=20 Sent: Thursday, June 19, 2003 1:44 PM Subject: RE: [Vision2020] Fraud Alert I have always been impressed with Best Buy. My wife and I do alot of = internet shopping there. I seriously believe that Best Buy is above such childish pranks. Tom Hansen Moscow, Idaho -----Original Message----- From: Sunil Ramalingam [mailto:sunilramalingam@hotmail.com] Sent: Thursday, June 19, 2003 1:20 PM To: dickow@uidaho.edu; Vision2020@moscow.com Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Fraud Alert Bob, Who cares if it's deceptive? BestBuy has such neat fun stuff! They = really are the Best! Sunil -------------------------------------------------------------------------= --- Add photos to your messages with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. = _____________________________________________________ List services made = available by First Step Internet, serving the communities of the Palouse = since 1994. http://www.fsr.net mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com = =AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF= =AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF= =AF=AF=AF ------=_NextPart_000_0035_01C33674.9A857690 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
From my informal depths of knowledge on = scams and=20 spams (due to many uninitiated hours of research), I = definitely=20 agree with Tom that this is not a BestBuy "childish prank."
 
If anyone would have clicked on the = link provided=20 in the original message from Bill London, they would have seen that it = would=20 have tried to open the web address http://ww= w.your-instant-credit-reporter.org/fraud.html in=20 their browser, rather than the web address BestBuy.c= om/fraud_department.html. =20 This is a simple HTML trick, and easily explainable, for those who = really care=20 to know.
A brief WhoIS domain lookup reveals = that there is=20 no such website http://www.your-ins= tant-credit-reporter.org/.
 
Other "fraud" giveaways in the email=20 are:
 
1. Opening with "Dear customer" -- in = our digital=20 age, especially with online ordering, any message from an online = business to a=20 customer would use the customer's name in the greeting.
 
2. Referring to the website as the = "official=20 BestBuy" website.  Not a total giveway, but I have never seen = Amazon, eBay,=20 etc., refer to their own websites as the "official" website.  The = very fact=20 that an email has to say that the website is official, means its = authority is in=20 question, and so they have to put those fears out of the way. =20
 
(I've been to numerous scam websites=20 which refer to their "100% satisfaction guaranteed" policy.  = Sure,=20 guys.  Promise us the moon on a silver platter.)
 
3. Grammatical and punctuation = errors=20 throughout the email.  Any message sent from a big online business = like=20 BestBuy or Amazon, etc., will be highly polished and won't have glaring=20 grammatical errors.
 
4. Excessive use of the word "special" = when=20 referring to the "Fraud Department."  This isn't just any fraud = department;=20 this is a *special* fraud department.  Not only that, they = themselves are=20 fraud.
 
There are a couple of other "fraud" = flags in that=20 email, but I'll leave it at that.
 
John
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Thomas=20 Hansen
To: 'Sunil Ramalingam' ; = dickow@uidaho.edu=20 ; Vision2020@moscow.com
Sent: Thursday, June 19, 2003 = 1:44=20 PM
Subject: RE: [Vision2020] Fraud = Alert

I=20 have always been impressed with Best Buy.  My wife and I do alot = of=20 internet shopping there.
 
I=20 seriously believe that Best Buy is above such childish=20 pranks.
 
Tom=20 Hansen
Moscow, Idaho
-----Original Message-----
From: Sunil Ramalingam = [mailto:sunilramalingam@hotmail.com]
Sent: Thursday, June = 19, 2003=20 1:20 PM
To: dickow@uidaho.edu; Vision2020@moscow.com
Sub= ject:=20 Re: [Vision2020] Fraud Alert

Bob,

Who cares if it's deceptive?  BestBuy has such neat fun = stuff! =20 They really are the Best!

Sunil


Add photos to your messages with MSN 8. Get 2 = months FREE*.=20 _____________________________________________________ List services = made=20 available by First Step Internet, serving the communities of the = Palouse=20 since 1994. http://www.fsr.net mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com=20 = =AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF= =AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF= =AF=AF=AF=20
------=_NextPart_000_0035_01C33674.9A857690-- From johnmoss@moscow.com Thu Jun 19 23:14:47 2003 From: johnmoss@moscow.com (John Moss) Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2003 15:14:47 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] Fraud Alert - shopping for a digital camera? References: <3EF1C9E5.35C15226@moscow.com> Message-ID: <004001c336b0$31c16dd0$0f188dcf@moonfish> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_003D_01C33675.855660D0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable As a word of note and caution to any of you out there who also do = significant Internet shopping, I recently became aware of a huge digital = camera scam. There are about 300 digital camera shops on the net, who = offer great prices and promise customer satisfaction, but are seriously = bad news. Most of these camera shops are based out of Brooklyn, New York. They = generally have a 7-day return policy (which starts from the date of = purchase), terrible customer service, and rude pushy salespeople. They = are also documented for shipping the wrong product, shipping no product, = or shipping broken products. I would use extreme caution in ordering from any online camera site, = unless you know it is reputable or do a ResellerRatings.com or Better = Business Bureau check beforehand. Some examples of these camera shops = are ExpressCameras.com, DigitalNetShop.com, BWayPhoto.com. And there = are about 300 hundred of them. John ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Bill London=20 To: Vision2020=20 Sent: Thursday, June 19, 2003 7:34 AM Subject: [Vision2020] Fraud Alert I received two of these "Fraud Alerts" yesterday.=20 They are bogus.=20 I contacted Best Buys directly and discovered that the email system is = flooded with these fake alerts. The goal of these "alerts" is to get = people to submit their credit card numbers to "verify" that they did not = buy the stuff mentioned in the email.=20 The people at Best Buys said just delete the alert.=20 BL=20 Tomasine Eliezer wrote:=20 Dear customer,=20 Recently we have received an order made by using your personal = credit card information.=20 This order was made online at our official BestBuy website on = 06/19/2003.=20 Our Fraud Department has some suspicions regarding this order and we = need you to visit a special Fraud Department page at our web store where = you can confirm or decline this transaction by providing us with the = correct information.=20 This e-mail address has been taken from National Credit Bureau.=20 Click the link below to visit a special Fraud Department page to = resolve the cause of the problem.=20 BestBuy.com/fraud_department.html =20 = -------------------------------------------------------------------------= -----------------------------------------------------------------ORDER# = 1095619 - STATUS: SUSPENDED=20 ITEMS PURCHASED=20 = -------------------------------------------------------------------------= -----------------------------------------------------------------=20 Item No: 73890=20 CDA-9815 In-Dash CD Player/Ai-Changer Controller=20 Price: $387.65 Qty: 2 Total: $775.3=20 = -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ---------------------------=20 The order listed above has not yet been processed.=20 The reason for the delay in processing your order is:=20 - UNVERIFIED SHIPPING ADDRESS=20 - Information provided:=20 Shipping=20 41 WINHAM ST=20 Staten Island, NY 10306=20 United States=20 phone# 206-337-9843=20 In our effort to deter fraudulent transactions, we need your help in = providing us with the correct information. Your prompt response is = needed to avoid any unauthorized charges to your credit card. = -------------------------------------------------------------------------= -----------------------------------------------------------------Click = the link below to visit a special Fraud Department page to resolve the = cause of the problem.=20 BestBuy.com/fraud_department.html ------=_NextPart_000_003D_01C33675.855660D0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
As a word of note and caution to any of = you out=20 there who also do significant Internet shopping, I recently became aware = of a=20 huge digital camera scam.  There are about 300 digital camera shops = on the=20 net, who offer great prices and promise customer satisfaction, but are = seriously=20 bad news.
 
Most of these camera shops are based = out of=20 Brooklyn, New York.  They generally have a 7-day return policy = (which=20 starts from the date of purchase), terrible customer service, and rude = pushy=20 salespeople.  They are also documented for shipping the wrong = product,=20 shipping no product, or shipping broken products.
 
I would use extreme caution in ordering = from any=20 online camera site, unless you know it is reputable or do a=20 ResellerRatings.com or Better Business Bureau check beforehand.  = Some=20 examples of these camera shops are ExpressCameras.com, = DigitalNetShop.com,=20 BWayPhoto.com.  And there are about 300 hundred of = them.
 
John
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Bill = London=20
Sent: Thursday, June 19, 2003 = 7:34=20 AM
Subject: [Vision2020] Fraud = Alert

I received two of these "Fraud Alerts" yesterday. =
They are=20 bogus.
I contacted Best Buys directly and discovered that the = email system=20 is flooded with these fake alerts.  The goal of these "alerts" is = to get=20 people to submit their credit card numbers to "verify" that they did = not buy=20 the stuff mentioned in the email.
The people at Best Buys said = just delete=20 the alert.
BL=20

Tomasine Eliezer wrote:=20

Dear customer,=20

Recently we have received an = order made by=20 using your personal credit card information.
This order was made online at our = official BestBuy=20 website on 06/19/2003.
Our=20 Fraud Department has some suspicions regarding this order and we = need you to=20 visit a special Fraud Department page at our web store where you can = confirm=20 or decline this transaction by providing us with the correct=20 information.
This e-mail=20 address has been taken from National Credit Bureau.=20

Click the link below to visit = a special=20 Fraud Department page to resolve the cause of the = problem.=20
BestBuy.c= om/fraud_department.html =20
---------------------------------------------------------------= -------------------------------------------------------------------------= --ORDER# 1095619 - STATUS: = SUSPENDED=20
ITEMS PURCHASED =
---------------------------------------------------------------= -------------------------------------------------------------------------= --=20
Item No: 73890 =
CDA-9815 In-Dash CD Player/Ai-Changer=20 Controller
Price:=20 $387.65   Qty: 2   Total: $775.3 =
---------------------------------------------------------------= -------------------------------------=20
The order listed above has = not yet been=20 processed.
The = reason for=20 the delay in processing your order is:=20

- UNVERIFIED SHIPPING=20 ADDRESS=20

- Information = provided:=20
  Shipping =
  41 WINHAM ST =
  Staten Island, NY  = 10306=20
  United = States=20
  phone# = 206-337-9843=20

In our effort to deter = fraudulent=20 transactions, we need your help in providing us with the correct=20 information. Your prompt response is needed to avoid any = unauthorized=20 charges to your credit card. ---------------------------------------------------------------= -------------------------------------------------------------------------= --Click the link below to visit a special = Fraud=20 Department page to resolve the cause of the problem. =
BestBuy.c= om/fraud_department.html

<= /BODY> ------=_NextPart_000_003D_01C33675.855660D0-- From thansen@moscow.com Fri Jun 20 00:01:40 2003 From: thansen@moscow.com (thansen@moscow.com) Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2003 23:01:40 GMT Subject: [Vision2020] Fraud Alert - shopping for a digital camera? Message-ID: <200306192231.h5JMVrQU096485@whale2.fsr.net> Good warning, Mr. Moss. When it comes to digital cameras (and other neat to have stuff), I deal over the internet with reputable outlets. For instance, I bought my digital camera thru www.sony.com. A very basic website address to an internationally known company (coupled with a thorough visit to that website) pretty much nails it for me. I also require that items I purchase be shipped via UPS or FEDEX. I like the idea of a chain of receipts. Take care, Tom Hansen Moscow, Idaho --------------------------------------------- This message was sent by First Step Internet. http://www.fsr.net/ From lukenieuwsma@softhome.net Fri Jun 20 00:52:04 2003 From: lukenieuwsma@softhome.net (Luke) Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2003 16:52:04 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] Religious Diversity Education References: Message-ID: <043d01c336bf$10c141a0$2f00a8c0@MOBILELUKE> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_041F_01C33683.1C8D8C00 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Mr. Arnold: The position you are taking is known as relativism; everyone's = right, no one is really wrong, you can believe what you believe, and = I'll believe what I want to. The problem with this is that it avoids all = the real questions in life; what is right, and what is wrong? If every = religion is acceptable, then how can you avoid the conflictions between = belief and belief when people live out what they believe? We're not all = saying the same thing; everyone is singing to a different tune, and it = sounds rather dissonant. You essentially stated that it was wrong to claim absolute certainty = of your religion. However, you claim absolute certainty that I am wrong. = You're not considering the possibility that I may be right. I think = there's a contradiction here. Best, Luke Nieuwsma ------=_NextPart_000_041F_01C33683.1C8D8C00 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Mr. Arnold:
    The position you are = taking is=20 known as relativism; everyone's right, no one is really wrong, you can = believe=20 what you believe, and I'll believe what I want to. The problem with this = is that=20 it avoids all the real questions in life; what is right, and what is = wrong? If=20 every religion is acceptable, then how can you avoid the conflictions = between=20 belief and belief when people live out what they = believe? We're not all saying the same thing; everyone is = singing to a=20 different tune, and it sounds rather dissonant.
    You essentially = stated that it=20 was wrong to claim absolute certainty of your religion. However, you = claim=20 absolute certainty that I am wrong. You're not considering the = possibility that=20 I may be right. I think there's a contradiction here.
 
Best,
Luke = Nieuwsma
------=_NextPart_000_041F_01C33683.1C8D8C00-- From thansen@moscow.com Fri Jun 20 02:33:20 2003 From: thansen@moscow.com (Tom Hansen) Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2003 18:33:20 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] Religious Diversity Education In-Reply-To: <043d01c336bf$10c141a0$2f00a8c0@MOBILELUKE> Message-ID: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_002A_01C33691.423763F0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit What would you have to say about the U.S. military. Each of the branches of the armed forces provide services for many religions. This strongly implies that the U.S. armed forces promotes diversity. If you are right (and I seriously doubt it from ALL angles) and there is only one "right" denomination (realizing that Christianity is divided into denominations), what does this say about the military? Tom Hansen Moscow, Idaho -----Original Message----- From: vision2020-admin@moscow.com [mailto:vision2020-admin@moscow.com]On Behalf Of Luke Sent: Thursday, June 19, 2003 4:52 PM To: Donovan Arnold; thansen@moscow.com Cc: vision2020 Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Religious Diversity Education Mr. Arnold: The position you are taking is known as relativism; everyone's right, no one is really wrong, you can believe what you believe, and I'll believe what I want to. The problem with this is that it avoids all the real questions in life; what is right, and what is wrong? If every religion is acceptable, then how can you avoid the conflictions between belief and belief when people live out what they believe? We're not all saying the same thing; everyone is singing to a different tune, and it sounds rather dissonant. You essentially stated that it was wrong to claim absolute certainty of your religion. However, you claim absolute certainty that I am wrong. You're not considering the possibility that I may be right. I think there's a contradiction here. Best, Luke Nieuwsma ------=_NextPart_000_002A_01C33691.423763F0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
What would you=20 have to say about the U.S. military.  Each of the branches of the = armed=20 forces provide services for many religions.  This strongly implies = that the=20 U.S. armed forces promotes diversity. 
 
If = you are right=20 (and I seriously doubt it from ALL angles) and there is only one "right" = denomination (realizing that Christianity is divided into = denominations), what=20 does this say about the military?
 
Tom = Hansen
Moscow,=20 Idaho
-----Original Message-----
From: = vision2020-admin@moscow.com=20 [mailto:vision2020-admin@moscow.com]On Behalf Of = Luke
Sent:=20 Thursday, June 19, 2003 4:52 PM
To: Donovan Arnold;=20 thansen@moscow.com
Cc: vision2020
Subject: Re:=20 [Vision2020] Religious Diversity Education

Mr. Arnold:
    The position you = are taking is=20 known as relativism; everyone's right, no one is really wrong, you can = believe=20 what you believe, and I'll believe what I want to. The problem with = this is=20 that it avoids all the real questions in life; what is right, and what = is=20 wrong? If every religion is acceptable, then how can you avoid the=20 conflictions between belief and belief when people live out what they=20 believe? We're not all saying = the same=20 thing; everyone is singing to a different tune, and it sounds rather=20 dissonant.
    You essentially = stated that it=20 was wrong to claim absolute certainty of your religion. However, you = claim=20 absolute certainty that I am wrong. You're not considering the = possibility=20 that I may be right. I think there's a contradiction = here.
 
Best,
Luke=20 Nieuwsma
------=_NextPart_000_002A_01C33691.423763F0-- From donovanarnold@hotmail.com Fri Jun 20 04:28:54 2003 From: donovanarnold@hotmail.com (Donovan Arnold) Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2003 20:28:54 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] Religious Diversity Education Message-ID:

Luke,

You wrote, "The position you are taking is known as relativism; everyone's right, no one is really wrong."

This is not the position I am taking. I saying everyone is wrong, nobody is right. So who is to judge? That is different then saying everyone is right. They are all only correct in their attempts to worship God.

"how can you avoid the conflictions between belief and belief when people live out what they believe?"

I know of no person that is able to follow through fully on what they believe. If they could, they wouldn't be human.  The conflict happens when people are unwilling to accept that the other person may be correct at least some of the time and they are wrong some of the time.

"You essentially stated that it was wrong to claim absolute certainty of your religion"

Closed mindedness is a bad thing and a true follower would keep their mind, heart, and soul open to the fact that they could be doing some things wrong and leave doors open to help them make those corrections. If you knew other religions you would know that  most concepts about religion are the same. Believe in God. Worship God. Follow God's rules. It is only the perception of God that is different. Who has a mind great enough to fully comprehend all aspects of God?

"However, you claim absolute certainty that I am wrong. You're not considering the possibility that I may be right. I think there's a contradiction here."

Lets think about this for a minute. Assuming that there was a single human on earth that understood fully all religions, and truly understood God and everything he did and all of his plans that would be phenomenal to began with. But let us pretend this one person exists. There are 6 billion people on Earth. So the chances of it being you would be 1 in 6 billion or .00000000016 %.  Now considering over a life time I am able to talk to 10,000 people that means that I would talk to .0000016 % of the human population. Times those together that this is the probability that I would ever be talking to that person. So yes, I have a .000000000000000256% chance of actually talking to that person and it being you. So I haven't ruled this out but I would not bet on those odds. This of course is assuming that this person really does exist, if they don't then the odds would be 0. So the odds of me talking to a person that knows everything God wants us to k! now about him is between .0000000000000000256 and 0. Not good odds.

Now lets consider that you know as much information as you can. The average current age of a person is about 35 worldwide. The average brain can only hold about 210 years worth of memory information (forget about recalling information at this point) gathered by a human through all of their senses, touch, sight, smell, hearing, and taste. That would be about 6 peoples worth of knowledge. Considering that there are 6 billion people on earth, at most  your brain could hold only .000000001 % of the total human knowledge. I would hedge my bets on the 99.99999999% rather then on the .000000001% that you would contain even if you knew as much as you possibly could.

I suggest that considering that you know very little, as do I,  in comparison to what the rest of the world knows that you listen more then you talk, or at least consider that others know as much or more then you and try to learn from it rather then assuming you know more then any 1 billion people do in any religion, in yours or not.

Donovan J Arnold 

 

>To: "Donovan Arnold" , thansen@moscow.com

>CC: "vision2020"
>Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Religious Diversity Education
>Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2003 16:52:04 -0700
>
>Mr. Arnold:
> you can believe what you believe, and I'll believe what I want to. The problem with this is that it avoids all the real questions in life; what is right, and what is wrong? If every religion is acceptable, then how can you avoid the conflictions between belief and belief when people live out what they believe? We're not all saying the same thing; everyone is singing to a different tune, and it sounds rather dissonant.
> You essentially stated that it was wrong to claim absolute certainty of your religion. However, you claim absolute certainty that I am wrong. You're not considering the possibility that I may be right. I think there's a contradiction here.
>
>Best,
>Luke Nieuwsma

MSN 8 helps ELIMINATE E-MAIL VIRUSES. Get 2 months FREE*. From donovanarnold@hotmail.com Fri Jun 20 07:33:04 2003 From: donovanarnold@hotmail.com (Donovan Arnold) Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2003 23:33:04 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] Are WE Frauds Too? Message-ID:

Yes you are a FRAUD Douglas! You stole the "u" from the word church and replaced it with an "e". How dare you steal from a CHURCH! But we are clever enough to catch onto your secret plan of fraudulently misspelling words and will stop your evil conspiracy of spreading illiteracy around the world. 

Donovan J Arnold


MSN 8 helps ELIMINATE E-MAIL VIRUSES. Get 2 months FREE*. From cbainbridge@ci.moscow.id.us Fri Jun 20 23:02:26 2003 From: cbainbridge@ci.moscow.id.us (Chris Bainbridge) Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2003 15:02:26 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] FW: Monday Agendas Message-ID: <93812436F60FD511A83A0002B3029EFC7B7C81@DCFS01> This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_000_01C33777.A28E3350 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C33777.A28E3350" ------_=_NextPart_001_01C33777.A28E3350 Content-Type: text/plain PLEASE NOTE THAT THE PUBLIC WORKS/FINANCE MEETING HAS BEEN CANCELLED. AGENDA CITY OF MOSCOW ADMINISTRATIVE COMMITTEE Monday, June 23, 2003 4:00 p.m. CITY HALL COUNCIL CHAMBERS 206 East 3rd Street, Second Floor 1. Approval of Minutes of June 2, 2003 - Stephanie Kalasz Reports: A. Update on BDPA/Pay-for-Performance Process - Leslie Moss B. Utzman Court Decision/Area of City Impact - Joel Plaskon C. Area of City Impact P&Z Subcommittee Report - Joel Plaskon D. Report of Economic Development Strategic Plan - Joel Plaskon E. COPS Presentation for Scenario of Pulling Monies in Year 3 and Higher Investment Returns - Don Palmer CITY OF MOSCOW PUBLIC WORKS/FINANCE COMMITTEE NO MEETING NOTICE THERE WILL BE NO PUBLIC WORKS/FINANCE COMMITTEE MEETING MONDAY, JUNE 23, 2003 THE NEXT SCHEDULED PUBLIC WORKS/FINANCE COMMITTEE WILL BE MONDAY, JUNE 30, 2003, AT 5:00 P.M. IN THE CITY HALL COUNCIL CHAMBERS AGENDA MOSCOW CITY COUNCIL SPECIAL MEETING Monday, June 23, 2003 7:00 p.m. City Hall Council Chambers - 206 East Third Street; Second Floor ************************************************************************ OPENING COMMENTS - Marshall Comstock 1. CRITICAL GROUNDWATER MANAGEMENT DISCUSSION - Gary J. Riedner On June 9, 2003, on behalf of a coalition of citizens, Mark Solomon addressed the City Council to discuss the potential of designating the Palouse aquifer as a critical groundwater management area. The group requested that the Council enact a moratorium on hook-ups of new water meters until the development and implementation of a city-wide water conservation plan. Due to time limitations, Council asked for a separate workshop meeting to discuss possible conservation options. Staff will discuss recent meetings with the group others interested in water conservation for Moscow and possible solutions. ACTION: Adopt Staff's recommendations to (1) Implement significant pumpage reduction strategies (2) Setting specific targets and benchmarking success towards meeting those targets (3) Commit fiscal resources for consultant support of the Health and Environment Commission's conservation planning efforts and implementing aquifer stabilization measures. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C33777.A28E3350 Content-Type: text/html Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message
 
PLEASE=20 NOTE THAT THE PUBLIC WORKS/FINANCE MEETING HAS BEEN=20 CANCELLED.
 
 

AGENDA

CITY OF=20 MOSCOW

ADMINISTRATIVE COMMITTEE =

Monday, June 23, 2003           &nb= sp;           &nb= sp;           &nb= sp;           &nb= sp;         =20     =            &nb= sp;       =20            &= nbsp;               &nb= sp;       =20               &= nbsp;                       &= nbsp;4:00 p.m.

CITY=20 HALL COUNCIL CHAMBERS

206=20 East 3rd Street, Second=20 Floor

1.        =20 Approval of Minutes of June=20 2, 2003=20 - Stephanie Kalasz

 

Reports:=20

 

A.       =20 Update on BDPA/Pay-for-Performance Process -=20 Leslie=20 Moss

 

B.       =20 Utzman Court Decision/Area of City Impact - = Joel=20 Plaskon

 

C.        = Area=20 of City Impact P&Z Subcommittee Report - = Joel=20 Plaskon

 

D.       =20 Report of Economic Development Strategic Plan -=20 Joel=20 Plaskon

 

E.   C= OPS=20 Presentation for Scenario of Pulling Monies in Year 3 and Higher = Investment=20 Returns - Don=20 Palmer

 

 

CITY OF=20 MOSCOW

 

PUBLIC WORKS/FINANCE=20 COMMITTEE

NO MEETING=20 NOTICE

THERE WILL BE NO PUBLIC=20 WORKS/FINANCE
COMMITTEE = MEETING

MONDAY, JUNE 23,=20 2003 

THE NEXT SCHEDULED PUBLIC=20 WORKS/FINANCE
COMMITTEE WILL = BE

MONDAY, JUNE 30, 2003, AT 5:00=20 P.M.

IN THE CITY HALL COUNCIL=20 CHAMBERS

 

AGENDA

MOSCOW CITY=20 COUNCIL

SPECIAL MEETING=20

 

Monday, June 23,=20 2003           &nb= sp;           &nb= sp;                    &nb= sp;           &nb= sp;                  7:00 = p.m.=20

 

City Hall Council Chambers -=20 206 East=20 Third Street; Second=20 Floor

***************************************************************= *********

OPENING=20 COMMENTS - Marshall Comstock

 

1.      =20 CRITICAL = GROUNDWATER=20 MANAGEMENT DISCUSSION - Gary J. = Riedner

 

     On June 9, 2003, on behalf of a = coalition of=20 citizens, Mark Solomon addressed the City Council to discuss the = potential of=20 designating the Palouse aquifer as a critical groundwater management = area.  The group requested that the = Council=20 enact a moratorium on hook-ups of new water meters until the = development and=20 implementation of a city-wide water conservation plan.  Due to time limitations, = Council asked=20 for a separate workshop meeting to discuss possible conservation = options.  Staff will discuss recent = meetings with=20 the group others interested in water conservation for=20 Moscow and possible=20 solutions.

 

     ACTION: = Adopt Staff's=20 recommendations to (1) Implement significant pumpage reduction = strategies (2)=20 Setting specific targets and benchmarking success towards meeting those = targets=20 (3) Commit fiscal resources for consultant support of the Health and = Environment=20 Commission's conservation planning efforts and implementing aquifer=20 stabilization measures.

 

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Your analogy of religion being like basketball degenerating into chaos with no rules to play the game when you take a view that having rules is so intolerant of other ways of playing basketball, demonstrates the extreme thinking you have adopted. We are to assume from this analogy that if we do not agree that one religion must be the correct and true religion, and reject the "relativistic" view that accepts that many religions may have truth with no one can knowing with absolute certainty what view of God or religion is the one true view, that we will be in the fix of trying to play the game of life with no rules, like a basketball game played without even a rule that the ball must go through the hoop. However, look at how basketball is really played. The NBA has changed the rules in recent years, bringing the three point line closer to the basket, and altering the rules on how much an offensive player may be impeded in progress to the basket without a foul call. Chaos did not result from these rule changes. People still enjoy basketball and follow rules of the game. NCAA rules are different than NBA rules, but does this result in the chaos you imply? Of course no one is going to abandon the rule about the ball going in the hoop. That would be absurd. Likewise, look at how religions really operate. Rules have changed. Some branches of Christianity allow women in positions of spiritual power that previously they did not. Some churches have stopped persecuting gays. But certain core beliefs in these religions have not changed. Murder and theft and fraud are still regarded as sins. Your insistence that if we all do not follow exactly one view of religion, and declare the others false, that ethical chaos results, does not hold up to the evidence of how people live their lives. You and I can disagree on many issues, yet we can live together in peace. In fact, I can be an atheist, and you can follow the Bible, and if we agree that murder, theft, fraud and violence are not good for society, we can get along just fine, unless one of us starts insisting that the other one must follow their beliefs down to the last detail, or they are doomed to hell, from the bible believer's point of view, or doomed to dogmatic superstitious nonsense, from the atheist's point of view. Acceptance of differing religious points of view, coupled with the humility derived from realizing that the ultimate truth may be beyond anyone's understanding, is not what creates evil in our world. Much of the evil comes from people who think they have the ultimate truth which gives them the right to violently impose this on other people, and kill or imprison them if they do not agree. I asked you in a previous vision2020 post if the men who carried out the 9/11 attacks had been given a diverse religious education when they grew up, that taught them to respect other religious points of view, and to be humble about asserting that their religion had to be the only true religion, would they have been as likely to carry out the 9/11 attacks? Well? Ted >From: "Donovan Arnold" >To: lukenieuwsma@softhome.net, thansen@moscow.com >CC: vision2020@moscow.com >Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Religious Diversity Education >Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2003 20:28:54 -0700 > _________________________________________________________________ MSN 8 helps eliminate e-mail viruses. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus From ltrwritr@moscow.com Fri Jun 20 23:55:46 2003 From: ltrwritr@moscow.com (Mark Rounds) Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2003 15:55:46 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Vision2020] Free Concert Message-ID: <200306202255.h5KMtjQW085087@whale2.fsr.net> Hi Folks This is an unabashed plug for the choir I sing with so if that is an issue please delete. The Galadrigals Madrigal Choir will be putting on a free concert at the Lionel Hampton School of Music Recital Hall on Sunday, June 22nd at 1:30 pm. There is no political agenda, just some folks who like to make music. The program runs from the 1300's to modern and jazz so there is probably something for everyone (Sorry, no Rap ;-) Mark Rounds From timlohr@yahoo.com Sat Jun 21 00:17:25 2003 From: timlohr@yahoo.com (Tim Lohrmann) Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2003 16:17:25 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Vision2020] Talk Show 6/22/03: Glenda Marie Rock-clairvoyant healer/esotericist Message-ID: <20030620231725.74915.qmail@web10902.mail.yahoo.com> Visionaries, On Sunday 6/22/03 MOSCOW MORNING VIEWS, a talk show on KUOI 89.3 FM in Moscow(web audio on KUOI.org) will feature the following guest: --In the first hour (9-10 am) Glenda Marie Rock, a local clairvoyant healer,esotericist will be in the studio. Glenda will discuss her psychic gifts of clairvoyance and their uses in everyday life. --In the second hour (10-11 am) we will finish up the discussion with Glenda and possibly have time for open-line phone calls. MOSCOW MORNING VIEWS is aired live every Sunday Morning from 9-11 am on KUOI 89.3 FM and streamed live on the internet on KUOI's website(KUOI.org) Call in phone #'s: 885-6392 or 885-6393 Anyone with comments, questions or suggestions for guests can send e-mail to: timlohr@yahoo.com OR call the studio after the show at the numbers above. __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! http://sbc.yahoo.com From london@moscow.com Sat Jun 21 01:28:48 2003 From: london@moscow.com (Bill London) Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2003 17:28:48 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] MCA meeting on June 9 References: <000301c3376e$54d3c200$4471e4ce@lblackburn> Message-ID: <3EF3A6BF.7CA922FF@moscow.com> > General meeting of the Moscow Civic Association > Monday, June 9, 2003 > Smart Growth, envisioned as part of the future of Moscow, touches a sensitive > nerve in many members of the community. At least, it appears to, > judging by the attentiveness and active participation among the 87 citizens > who attended the June general meeting of the Moscow Civic Association. This > meeting was the first of a series entitled Smart Growth for Moscow. > Professor Vic Getz, a doctoral candidate and visiting assistant professor > in environmental sociology and gender at University of Idaho, discussed > methods of analyzing the health of a community. Getz noted that the usual > yardstick, Gross Domestic Product, measures only money changing hands. (For > example, GPI goes up when crime rate rises, necessitating the building of > more prisons.) Getz proposes using instead a new measurement system > developed in Alberta, Canada, the GPI, or Genuine Progress Indicators, in > which indicators used are elements of the quality of life in a community: > jobs, health care, sustainable growth, schools, etc. > Crysta Falcon, a University of Idaho graduate student in architecture, gave > a presentation on Moscow neighborhoods, using as examples the U of I campus, > downtown, and the area around Rosauers market. Illustrating her study with > many slide photographs of these areas, Falcon discussed such features of a > neighborhood as walkability, a range of different housing opportunities, a > neighborhood focal center, and green spaces. > Joel Plaskon, Moscow City Planner, informed the audience about the new > Economic Development Collaboration, which includes representatives from the > Economic Development Council, Moscow city government, Latah County > government, the University of Idaho, Palouse Clearwater Environmental > Institute, the Moscow Chamber of Commerce, Gritman Hospital, Moscow School > District, and Moscow Civic Association. The group has already had one > organizational meeting. Plaskon stated that the Moscow Civic Association > should be a participant in this effort, and invited the MCA to send three > representatives to the meeting on Tuesday, June 17. > Several audience members asked questions and made suggestions, including Tom > Hudson, who suggested that the studies be started with the work generated > and developed in a two-day Moscow Community Retreat in 1998, in which about > 400 people participated. Members of the audience suggested that community > brainstorming be a part of the effort, including a survey to define how > people feel about Moscow and what we value that we do not want to lose. > This will provide a context for Smart Growth planning. > The next general meeting of the Moscow Civic Association will be Monday, > July 14, at 7:30 PM at the 1912 Building. The subject will be Smart Growth > in Moscow: the Role of the Arts. The Association invites all interested > community members to attend. > > _____________________________________________________ > List services made available by First Step Internet, > serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994. > http://www.fsr.net > mailto:MCABoard@moscow.com > ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ From jporter@moscow.com Sat Jun 21 04:07:21 2003 From: jporter@moscow.com (Jack Porter) Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2003 20:07:21 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] 1912 virus? Message-ID: <4.3.1.2.20030620194656.00b775e0@mail.moscow.com> It has been brought to my attention that an email titled "1912 plaza" has been circulating with my name on it. It does contain text I wrote for a 2020 posting over two years ago, but I assure you I didn't send it this time, and the one I did send at that time had no attachment. And I have an alibi -- I've been away on vacation with my computer turned off, so the trouble could not have originated here. Perhaps a virus has infected an old item sitting in someone else's in-box and is generating messages through that person's address book. Jack Porter From lukenieuwsma@softhome.net Sat Jun 21 06:24:18 2003 From: lukenieuwsma@softhome.net (Luke) Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2003 22:24:18 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] Religious Diversity Education References: Message-ID: <053501c337b5$67c0c240$2f00a8c0@MOBILELUKE> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0532_01C3377A.B07289A0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello, Mr. Hansen: What would I have to say about the military, given this discussion? = It needs reform, like the rest of the world. It will come. Luke P.S. Though there are indeed many different denominations in the church = today, most of them agree on the essential point of the gospel: Christ = died for sinners, that they might forsake a life of sin (sin being = defined, for the most part, as what the Bible says is sin). ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Tom Hansen=20 To: Luke ; Donovan Arnold=20 Cc: vision2020=20 Sent: Thursday, June 19, 2003 6:33 PM Subject: RE: [Vision2020] Religious Diversity Education What would you have to say about the U.S. military. Each of the = branches of the armed forces provide services for many religions. This = strongly implies that the U.S. armed forces promotes diversity. =20 If you are right (and I seriously doubt it from ALL angles) and there = is only one "right" denomination (realizing that Christianity is divided = into denominations), what does this say about the military? Tom Hansen Moscow, Idaho -----Original Message----- From: vision2020-admin@moscow.com = [mailto:vision2020-admin@moscow.com]On Behalf Of Luke Sent: Thursday, June 19, 2003 4:52 PM To: Donovan Arnold; thansen@moscow.com Cc: vision2020 Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Religious Diversity Education Mr. Arnold: The position you are taking is known as relativism; everyone's = right, no one is really wrong, you can believe what you believe, and = I'll believe what I want to. The problem with this is that it avoids all = the real questions in life; what is right, and what is wrong? If every = religion is acceptable, then how can you avoid the conflictions between = belief and belief when people live out what they believe? We're not all = saying the same thing; everyone is singing to a different tune, and it = sounds rather dissonant. You essentially stated that it was wrong to claim absolute = certainty of your religion. However, you claim absolute certainty that I = am wrong. You're not considering the possibility that I may be right. I = think there's a contradiction here. Best, Luke Nieuwsma ------=_NextPart_000_0532_01C3377A.B07289A0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hello, Mr. Hansen:
 
    What would I have to = say about=20 the military, given this discussion? It needs reform, like the rest of = the=20 world. It will come.
Luke
 
P.S. Though there are indeed many = different=20 denominations in the church today, most of them agree on the essential = point of=20 the gospel: Christ died for sinners, that they might forsake a life of = sin (sin=20 being defined, for the most part, as what the Bible says is = sin).
----- Original Message -----
 
From:=20 Tom = Hansen=20
To: Luke ; Donovan Arnold
Sent: Thursday, June 19, 2003 = 6:33=20 PM
Subject: RE: [Vision2020] = Religious=20 Diversity Education

What would you=20 have to say about the U.S. military.  Each of the branches of the = armed=20 forces provide services for many religions.  This strongly = implies that=20 the U.S. armed forces promotes diversity. 
 
If you are=20 right (and I seriously doubt it from ALL angles) and there is only one = "right"=20 denomination (realizing that Christianity is divided into = denominations), what=20 does this say about the military?
 
Tom=20 Hansen
Moscow,=20 Idaho
-----Original Message-----
From: vision2020-admin@moscow.com=20 [mailto:vision2020-admin@moscow.com]On Behalf Of = Luke
Sent:=20 Thursday, June 19, 2003 4:52 PM
To: Donovan Arnold;=20 thansen@moscow.com
Cc: vision2020
Subject: Re:=20 [Vision2020] Religious Diversity Education

Mr. Arnold:
    The position you = are taking=20 is known as relativism; everyone's right, no one is really wrong, = you can=20 believe what you believe, and I'll believe what I want to. The = problem with=20 this is that it avoids all the real questions in life; what is = right, and=20 what is wrong? If every religion is acceptable, then how can you = avoid the=20 conflictions between belief and belief when people live out what = they=20 believe? We're not all = saying the same=20 thing; everyone is singing to a different tune, and it sounds rather = dissonant.
    You essentially = stated that=20 it was wrong to claim absolute certainty of your religion. However, = you=20 claim absolute certainty that I am wrong. You're not considering the = possibility that I may be right. I think there's a contradiction=20 here.
 
Best,
Luke=20 Nieuwsma
------=_NextPart_000_0532_01C3377A.B07289A0-- From sslund@moscow.com Sat Jun 21 06:42:24 2003 From: sslund@moscow.com (Saundra Lund) Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2003 22:42:24 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] FW: Official Notification from Best Buy (re: Fraud Alert) Message-ID: <004a01c337b7$e45abac0$6501a8c0@pooh> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_004B_01C3377D.37FBE2C0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit For those interested, here's the real deal on the Best Buy fraud alert / email hoax we were discussing earlier this week. The same information is now also available via the BestBuy.com Web site. HTH, Saundra Lund Moscow, Idaho The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good people to do nothing. Edmund Burke -----Original Message----- From: Best Buy [mailto:bestbuysecurityinfo@postfuture.com] Sent: Friday, June 20, 2003 4:19 PM To: sslund@moscow.com Subject: Official Notification from Best Buy IMPORTANT: E-MAIL HOAX NOTIFICATION Late Wednesday afternoon, June 18, 2003, Best Buy became aware of an unauthorized and deceptive e-mail to consumers titled "Fraud Alert." That e-mail message, which requested personal information (i.e., social security and credit card numbers), claimed to come from the BestBuy.com Fraud Department. That message was NOT from Best Buy or any of our affiliates. Best Buy is working with the appropriate law enforcement authorities to quickly resolve the situation. We are working to shut down sites affiliated with that unauthorized e-mail and Best Buy will work with law enforcement authorities to prosecute any perpetrators involved in this illegal act to the fullest extent of the law. If you replied to the fraudulent e-mail in any way, contact your bank and/or credit card companies immediately. No Best Buy systems have been compromised, and our online business is secure. The privacy of your personal information is of the utmost importance to Best Buy and any information you provide to us is handled according to our Privacy Policy. As part of the preparation for the relaunch of BestBuy.com, online purchasing will be temporarily unavailable beginning Friday, June 20; however, our product information and helpful resource articles will still be available. Rest assured, the fraudulent e-mail will not affect the launch of our redesigned Web site. If you have any questions, call Customer Care at 1-888-BEST BUY (237-8289) or visit our Online Pressroom. To find out more about protecting your information, visit the Federal Trade Commission's Identity Theft Web site at www.consumer.gov/idtheft . Thank you for being a valued Best Buy customer. _____ If you've opted out of Best Buy promotional e-mails, don't worry: you haven't been signed up again. We just wanted to make sure you knew about this situation, regardless of whether you receive Best Buy promotional e-mails. You will NOT continue to receive Best Buy promotional e-mails. Thank you. ------=_NextPart_000_004B_01C3377D.37FBE2C0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message
For those = interested,=20 here's the real deal on the Best Buy fraud alert / email hoax we were = discussing=20 earlier this week.  The same information is now also available via = the=20 BestBuy.com Web site.
 
 
HTH,
Saundra Lund
Moscow, Idaho

The only = thing=20 necessary for the triumph of evil is for good people to do = nothing.
Edmund=20 Burke

-----Original = Message-----
From: Best Buy=20 [mailto:bestbuysecurityinfo@postfuture.com]
Sent: Friday, = June 20,=20 2003 4:19 PM
To: sslund@moscow.com
Subject: Official = Notification from Best Buy


=

IMPORTANT: E-MAIL HOAX=20 NOTIFICATION

Late Wednesday afternoon, June 18, = 2003,=20 Best Buy became aware of an unauthorized and deceptive e-mail to = consumers=20 titled "Fraud Alert." That e-mail message, which requested = personal=20 information (i.e., social security and credit card numbers), = claimed to=20 come from the BestBuy.com Fraud Department. That message was = NOT=20 from Best Buy or any of our affiliates.

Best Buy is = working with=20 the appropriate law enforcement authorities to quickly resolve the = situation. We are working to shut down sites affiliated with that=20 unauthorized e-mail and Best Buy will work with law enforcement=20 authorities to prosecute any perpetrators involved in this illegal = act to=20 the fullest extent of the law. If you replied to the = fraudulent
e-mail=20 in any way, contact your bank and/or credit card companies = immediately.=20

No Best Buy systems have been compromised, and our online = business=20 is secure. The privacy of your personal information is of the = utmost=20 importance to Best Buy and any information you provide to us is = handled=20 according to our Privacy=20 Policy.

As part of the preparation for the relaunch of = BestBuy.com, online purchasing will be temporarily unavailable = beginning=20 Friday, June 20; however, our product information and helpful = resource=20 articles will still be available. Rest assured, the fraudulent = e-mail will=20 not affect the launch of our redesigned Web site.

If you = have any=20 questions, call Customer Care at 1-888-BEST BUY (237-8289) or = visit our Online=20 Pressroom.

To find out more about protecting your = information,=20 visit the Federal Trade Commission's Identity Theft Web site at www.consumer.gov/idtheft.=20

Thank you for being a valued Best Buy customer.

If you've opted out of Best Buy promotional e-mails, don't = worry: you=20 haven't been signed up again. We just wanted to make sure you knew = about=20 this situation, regardless of whether you receive Best Buy = promotional=20 e-mails. You will NOT continue to receive Best Buy promotional = e-mails.=20 Thank you.
3D""=20
  3D""=20

 

------=_NextPart_000_004B_01C3377D.37FBE2C0-- From ted_moffett@hotmail.com Sat Jun 21 08:13:19 2003 From: ted_moffett@hotmail.com (Ted Moffett) Date: Sat, 21 Jun 2003 07:13:19 +0000 Subject: [Vision2020] Religious Diversity Education Message-ID: Luke et. al. Are you listening to what you are saying? You imply the US military is somehow amiss in offering a religiously diverse support system for the men and women who fight to defend us? So a man or women who is risking their life for us who happens to be Islamic or Jewish or Hindu should not receive this religiously diverse support? What "reforms" are you suggesting? Ted >From: "Luke" >To: thansen@moscow.com, "Donovan Arnold" >CC: "vision2020" >Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Religious Diversity Education >Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2003 22:24:18 -0700 > >Hello, Mr. Hansen: > > What would I have to say about the military, given this discussion? It >needs reform, like the rest of the world. It will come. >Luke > >P.S. Though there are indeed many different denominations in the church >today, most of them agree on the essential point of the gospel: Christ died >for sinners, that they might forsake a life of sin (sin being defined, for >the most part, as what the Bible says is sin). > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: Tom Hansen > To: Luke ; Donovan Arnold > Cc: vision2020 > Sent: Thursday, June 19, 2003 6:33 PM > Subject: RE: [Vision2020] Religious Diversity Education > > > What would you have to say about the U.S. military. Each of the >branches of the armed forces provide services for many religions. This >strongly implies that the U.S. armed forces promotes diversity. > > If you are right (and I seriously doubt it from ALL angles) and there is >only one "right" denomination (realizing that Christianity is divided into >denominations), what does this say about the military? > > Tom Hansen > Moscow, Idaho > -----Original Message----- > From: vision2020-admin@moscow.com >[mailto:vision2020-admin@moscow.com]On Behalf Of Luke > Sent: Thursday, June 19, 2003 4:52 PM > To: Donovan Arnold; thansen@moscow.com > Cc: vision2020 > Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Religious Diversity Education > > > Mr. Arnold: > The position you are taking is known as relativism; everyone's >right, no one is really wrong, you can believe what you believe, and I'll >believe what I want to. The problem with this is that it avoids all the >real questions in life; what is right, and what is wrong? If every religion >is acceptable, then how can you avoid the conflictions between belief and >belief when people live out what they believe? We're not all saying the >same thing; everyone is singing to a different tune, and it sounds rather >dissonant. > You essentially stated that it was wrong to claim absolute >certainty of your religion. However, you claim absolute certainty that I am >wrong. You're not considering the possibility that I may be right. I think >there's a contradiction here. > > Best, > Luke Nieuwsma _________________________________________________________________ The new MSN 8: smart spam protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From dale@courtneys.us Sat Jun 21 20:08:53 2003 From: dale@courtneys.us (Dale Courtney) Date: Sat, 21 Jun 2003 12:08:53 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] Killing Homeschooling in Idaho Message-ID: <000e01c33828$a1671300$15317883@DMCLAPTOP2> Forced registration and mandatory testing for every Idaho home schooled student are on the table. If the measures are enacted, any student who fails to register or who fails to score at grade level on the Idaho Standard Achievement Test (ISAT) could be forced to attend public school. The following is a summary of the primary elements of the Idaho State Education Committee's "Draft Recommendation on Home Education": -Mandatory registration and oversight of all home schoolers with their local school districts; -Required testing of all home schoolers on the Idaho Standard Achievement Test (ISAT); -Forced remediation and reassessment of any home school student failing to score at grade level as required of public school students; and -Truancy and juvenile criminal prosecution of students and parents failing to comply with these requirements. It would be better if the proposal were amended to read: "The parents of any Idaho government school student performing below grade level will be given a voucher equal to the per pupil cost of that student's government school, and which can be used to attend a private school of the parent's choice." But what's the chances of that? Best, Dale Courtney Moscow, Idaho From donovanarnold@hotmail.com Sun Jun 22 03:06:12 2003 From: donovanarnold@hotmail.com (Donovan Arnold) Date: Sat, 21 Jun 2003 19:06:12 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] Killing Homeschooling in Idaho Message-ID:

Dale,

No disrespect, but you seem to not think through all your viewpoints.

You wrote: "Forced registration and mandatory testing for every Idaho home schooled student are on the table. If the measures are enacted, any student who fails to register or who fails to score at grade level on the Idaho Standard Achievement Test (ISAT) could be forced to attend public school." 

I would tend to think that you would think this is a GOOD thing. If a child who stays at home is not even meeting the minimum standards of a grade level that you think is very low, why should a child stay in an environment that gives him/her no advantages? Do you not care about the quality of education a child is receiving? Second, why would this even be considered a threat if you think that home schooling is better then public run schools? You claim it is so much better and we should tap the public schools of funding with vouchers to help pay for this. Is your argument to better education of children in Idaho or to simply drain the school system of funding?

Next you stated the law should read:

"The parents of any Idaho government school student performing below grade level will be given a voucher equal to the per pupil cost of that student's government school, and which can be used to attend a private school of the parent's choice."

This is based on many false assumptions. I will only name a few.

First, you assume that if a child is doing poorly in school it is not connected to the parents or the child themselves. Often times this is the case and cause, not teachers that don't know how to teach.

Second, you assume that another school would want to take a student that can't even do well in a public school that has lower standards then the private school. A private school keeps its grades high not by taking failing students but by taking the highest achievers it can. Private schools are businesses and if they take poor performing students their test scores go down and they fail to attract new students. They are not going to allow this to happen.

Third, you assume that another school has the room and capacity to take more children. Most public schools are over filled to capacity and under funded so will not take any more children unless they are absolutely required to do so, which they are not unless your child lives in that school district.

Fourth, you assume that if you put the child in a school that tests well your child will test well. This is like saying if I put my child on a soccer team that is number 1 my child will be a number 1 soccer ball player. The situation is far more complicated then this.

Next you state: "be given a voucher equal to the per pupil cost of that student's government school"

Two points against this notion:

First, you assume that there is an exact per pupil cost. Not all children cost the same. Some children cost very little because they are average students, their parents are well enough off, and they live next to the school so they don't need transportation to and from the school. Other students have disabilities, need vouchers for school lunch and breakfast, or live considerable distances away. Other kids have talents or special situations that cost the school more money. Your plan would increase the cost of education by sucking money away from these students who need these things that are required by law. Yes, it is required by law that they transport children and meet ADA regulations. I guess feeding children is a state law you can fight against and I wouldn't be surprised if you thought free lunch for poor children was a program we could slash for your voucher program.

Second point. You assume that parents are entitled to control an amount of money equal to the number of children they have. Where do you get this idea from? Don't people that pay into the system have a say in where the money should go to? How about adults that don't have children, should they be required to pay teachers in another county, or fund some church that teaches them to dislike people of another religion, or fuel more bible thumpers to come knocking on your door on Saturday mourning to tell you if you don't read this book you are going to hell? Or fund some neo-nazi preacher? I don't want to fund that, either does millions of other people. Under your plan Bob Jones would have been funded. People also don't want funds going out of the city. Why do I want to fund tax dollars to go to Lewiston or Pullman? Teachers should buy their homes here, buy stuff here, and invest here as much as possible. Pumping millions of dollars outside the county or city is a bad ide! a that destroys the community and eventually would weaken the economy and thus reduce the amount of voucher money you would get to spend in other counties. People also wouldn't be able to vote on school or bond issues, and wouldn't vote for them here either because their children would not go to school here. People would not want to fund education here because their children would not go to school here, they would being attending school in a different district where they would not benefit from the system. They would have zero say in the crime, laws, and the community their child was attending school in. All this because you think that it is the school and not anything else that is hurting the education attainment of the child.

I feel that if we have problems with our educational system we should stay and work them out not flee and hide or pass them on to another school district like cowards would do. We need to face the problems and teach our children to take responsibility for our messes and problems, not run away when things get a little tuff to work on and figure out. What kind of principles are those to teach children?

Thanks!

Donovan J Arnold

>From: "Dale Courtney"

>To:
>Subject: [Vision2020] Killing Homeschooling in Idaho
>Date: Sat, 21 Jun 2003 12:08:53 -0700
>
>Forced registration and mandatory testing for every Idaho home schooled
>student are on the table. If the measures are enacted, any student who
>fails to register or who fails to score at grade level on the Idaho Standard
>Achievement Test (ISAT) could be forced to attend public school.
>
>The following is a summary of the primary elements of the Idaho State
>Education Committee's "Draft Recommendation on Home Education":
>
>-Mandatory registration and oversight of all home schoolers with their local
>school districts;
>-Required testing of all home schoolers on the Idaho Standard Achievement
>Test (ISAT);
>-Forced remediation and reassessment of any home school student failing to
>score at grade level as required of public school students; and
>-Truancy and juvenile criminal prosecution of students and parents failing
>to comply with these requirements.
>
>It would be better if the proposal were amended to read:
>
>"The parents of any Idaho government school student performing below grade
>level will be given a voucher equal to the per pupil cost of that student's
>government school, and which can be used to attend a private school of the
>parent's choice."
>
>But what's the chances of that?
>
>Best,
>Dale Courtney
>Moscow, Idaho
>
>_____________________________________________________
> List services made available by First Step Internet,
> serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
> http://www.fsr.net
> mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com
>ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ

STOP MORE SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* From jeanlivingston@turbonet.com Sun Jun 22 21:20:32 2003 From: jeanlivingston@turbonet.com (Bruce and Jean Livingston) Date: Sun, 22 Jun 2003 13:20:32 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] Latah Trail Message-ID: <004b01c338fb$d9b54c30$0100007f@momanddad> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_003D_01C338C1.0F4DB3E0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_003E_01C338C1.0F4DB3E0" ------=_NextPart_001_003E_01C338C1.0F4DB3E0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable BlankKudos to Latah County Commisisoners Kimmell, Nelson and Stroschein = for acquiring the easement rights to the Latah Trail expansion between = Moscow and Troy this past week without using eminent domain. People = complain about government authorities making development choices that = seem unwise, and we should applaud when good decisions are made. It = seems to me that the Latah Trail development is a "Smart Growth" move = that has great potential for providing a fabulous recreational = opportunity that preserves the rural character of this area that we all = love. Now, we need more private support for the trail to help the Latah Trail = Foundation speed this project toward completion. Bruce Livingston ------=_NextPart_001_003E_01C338C1.0F4DB3E0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Blank
Kudos to Latah County Commisisoners Kimmell, Nelson and Stroschein = for=20 acquiring the easement rights to the Latah Trail expansion between = Moscow and=20 Troy this past week without using eminent domain.  People complain = about=20 government authorities making development choices that seem unwise, and = we=20 should applaud when good decisions are made.  It seems to me that = the Latah=20 Trail development is a "Smart Growth" move that has great potential for=20 providing a fabulous recreational opportunity that preserves the rural = character=20 of this area that we all love.
 
Now, we need more private support for the trail to help the Latah = Trail=20 Foundation speed this project toward completion.

Bruce Livingston

------=_NextPart_001_003E_01C338C1.0F4DB3E0-- ------=_NextPart_000_003D_01C338C1.0F4DB3E0 Content-Type: image/gif; name="Blank Bkgrd.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: <003c01c338fb$bb7cf060$0100007f@momanddad> R0lGODlhLQAtAID/AP////f39ywAAAAALQAtAEACcAxup8vtvxKQsFon6d02898pGkgiYoCm6sq2 7iqWcmzOsmeXeA7uPJd5CYdD2g9oPF58ygqz+XhCG9JpJGmlYrPXGlfr/Yo/VW45e7amp2tou/lW xo/zX513z+Vt+1n/tiX2pxP4NUhy2FM4xtjIUQAAOw== ------=_NextPart_000_003D_01C338C1.0F4DB3E0-- From ted_moffett@hotmail.com Sun Jun 22 22:37:55 2003 From: ted_moffett@hotmail.com (Ted Moffett) Date: Sun, 22 Jun 2003 21:37:55 +0000 Subject: [Vision2020] Imperial Over-Stretch Message-ID: http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Central_Asia/EF21Ag01.html _________________________________________________________________ The new MSN 8: advanced junk mail protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From ted_moffett@hotmail.com Sun Jun 22 23:00:52 2003 From: ted_moffett@hotmail.com (Ted Moffett) Date: Sun, 22 Jun 2003 22:00:52 +0000 Subject: [Vision2020] Spirit of Capitalism Message-ID: http://slate.msn.com/id/2084686/ _________________________________________________________________ The new MSN 8: advanced junk mail protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From dkaag@turbonet.com Mon Jun 23 15:57:37 2003 From: dkaag@turbonet.com (Don Kaag) Date: Mon, 23 Jun 2003 07:57:37 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] Fraud Alert In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <076D7448-A58B-11D7-A712-000393B120B6@turbonet.com> --Apple-Mail-4-763646145 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Visionaries: Sorry if my response to this thread is a bit overdue, but I just did a=20= 16 hour "iron butt" marathon back to Moscow from the annual Red Rocks=20 BMW Motorcycle Rally in southern Utah, and am plodding through my email=20= (...and sitting gingerly upon my chair...). I got one of the fraudulent emails purportedly from Best Buy, too. I=20 called them. They were very helpful. I think Bob is wrong about them=20= trying to stimulate business, given that the netsite allowing you to=20 order items via the web is currently down, assumedly so that Best Buy=20 can work the hacking problem. I was completely satisfied with their explanation, and impressed that=20 they were able to track the hacking and shut down the site within two=20 hours. Although I have not purchased much from them, I am impressed with their=20= customer service... I had a live person on the phone within three=20 minutes of calling them, she was up-to-speed on the problem, courteous,=20= and efficient. Regards, Don Kaag On Thursday, June 19, 2003, at 01:19 PM, Sunil Ramalingam wrote: > Bob, > > Who cares if it's deceptive?=A0 BestBuy has such neat fun stuff!=A0 = They=20 > really are the Best! > > Sunil > > > > Add photos to your messages with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*.= --Apple-Mail-4-763646145 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/enriched; charset=ISO-8859-1 Visionaries: Sorry if my response to this thread is a bit overdue, but I just did a 16 hour "iron butt" marathon back to Moscow from the annual Red Rocks BMW Motorcycle Rally in southern Utah, and am plodding through my email (...and sitting gingerly upon my chair...). I got one of the fraudulent emails purportedly from Best Buy, too. I called them. They were very helpful. I think Bob is wrong about them trying to stimulate business, given that the netsite allowing you to order items via the web is currently down, assumedly so that Best Buy can work the hacking problem. =20 I was completely satisfied with their explanation, and impressed that they were able to track the hacking and shut down the site within two hours. Although I have not purchased much from them, I am impressed with their customer service... I had a live person on the phone within three minutes of calling them, she was up-to-speed on the problem, courteous, and efficient. Regards, Don Kaag On Thursday, June 19, 2003, at 01:19 PM, Sunil Ramalingam wrote: Bob, Who cares if it's deceptive?=A0 BestBuy has such neat fun stuff!=A0 They really are the Best! Sunil =20 < Add photos to your messages with 1999,1999,FFFFMSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*.= --Apple-Mail-4-763646145-- From stopchristchurch@yahoo.com Mon Jun 23 21:24:47 2003 From: stopchristchurch@yahoo.com (Douglas Stambler) Date: Mon, 23 Jun 2003 13:24:47 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Vision2020] Is Doug Wilson An Adulterer? - thank you Message-ID: <20030623202447.78771.qmail@web20506.mail.yahoo.com> --0-1387813200-1056399887=:78454 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Is Doug Wilson An Adulterer? - thank you --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! --0-1387813200-1056399887=:78454 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
Is Doug Wilson An Adulterer? - thank you

Do you Yahoo!?
SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! --0-1387813200-1056399887=:78454-- From jack@wsu.edu Mon Jun 23 21:43:43 2003 From: jack@wsu.edu (Van Deventer, Jack) Date: Mon, 23 Jun 2003 13:43:43 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] enough already Message-ID: <98444CB31FE6BD4F969495E78B94DDB3287B34@mail.cbe.wsu.edu> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C339C8.22B04E5E Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dear V2020 participants, I've had enough of Douglas Stambler's verbal manure, especially with Vision 2020 his favorite spot to unload this filth. =20 I would like to move that Douglas Stambler be dismissed from this list. Jack =20 __________________________________ Jack Van Deventer jack@wsu.edu -----Original Message----- From: Douglas Stambler [mailto:stopchristchurch@yahoo.com]=20 Sent: Monday, June 23, 2003 12:25 PM To: vision2020@moscow.com Subject: [Vision2020] Is Doug Wilson An Adulterer? - thank you =20 Is Doug Wilson An Adulterer? - thank you _____ =20 Do you Yahoo!? SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! ------_=_NextPart_001_01C339C8.22B04E5E Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Dear V2020 = participants,

I’ve had enough of Douglas = Stambler’s verbal manure, especially with Vision 2020 his favorite spot to unload = this filth. 

I would like to move that Douglas = Stambler be dismissed from this list.

Jack

 

__________________________________

Jack Van Deventer

jack@wsu.edu

-----Original = Message-----
From: Douglas Stambler = [mailto:stopchristchurch@yahoo.com]
Sent: Monday, June 23, 2003 12:25 = PM
To: vision2020@moscow.com
Subject: [Vision2020] Is = Doug Wilson An Adulterer? - thank you

 

Is Doug Wilson An Adulterer? - thank = you

Do you Yahoo!?
SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month!

=00 ------_=_NextPart_001_01C339C8.22B04E5E-- From ddjames@moscow.com Mon Jun 23 21:51:03 2003 From: ddjames@moscow.com (Deacon James) Date: Mon, 23 Jun 2003 13:51:03 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] enough already References: <98444CB31FE6BD4F969495E78B94DDB3287B34@mail.cbe.wsu.edu> Message-ID: <002301c339c9$2901f630$6a01a8c0@telus> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0020_01C3398E.7C8AB430 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I second the motion. I am tired of him and his ridiculous emails. Deacon James ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Van Deventer, Jack=20 To: vision2020@moscow.com=20 Sent: Monday, June 23, 2003 1:43 PM Subject: [Vision2020] enough already Dear V2020 participants, I've had enough of Douglas Stambler's verbal manure, especially with = Vision 2020 his favorite spot to unload this filth. =20 I would like to move that Douglas Stambler be dismissed from this = list. Jack __________________________________ Jack Van Deventer jack@wsu.edu -----Original Message----- From: Douglas Stambler [mailto:stopchristchurch@yahoo.com]=20 Sent: Monday, June 23, 2003 12:25 PM To: vision2020@moscow.com Subject: [Vision2020] Is Doug Wilson An Adulterer? - thank you Is Doug Wilson An Adulterer? - thank you -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ----- Do you Yahoo!? SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! ------=_NextPart_000_0020_01C3398E.7C8AB430 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I second the motion. I am tired of him = and his=20 ridiculous emails.
 
Deacon James
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Van Deventer, = Jack
Sent: Monday, June 23, 2003 = 1:43 PM
Subject: [Vision2020] enough=20 already

Dear V2020=20 participants,

I=92ve had enough of Douglas = Stambler=92s=20 verbal manure, especially with Vision 2020 his favorite spot to unload = this=20 filth. 

I would like to move that = Douglas=20 Stambler be dismissed from this list.

Jack

 

__________________________________

Jack Van=20 Deventer

jack@wsu.edu

-----Original=20 Message-----
From: = Douglas=20 Stambler [mailto:stopchristchurch@yahoo.com]
Sent: Monday, = June 23,=20 2003 12:25=20 PM
To: vision2020@moscow.com
Subject: [Vision2020] Is Doug = Wilson An=20 Adulterer? - thank you

 

Is Doug Wilson An Adulterer? = - thank=20 you

Do you Yahoo!?
SBC=20 Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per=20 month!

------=_NextPart_000_0020_01C3398E.7C8AB430-- From sunilramalingam@hotmail.com Mon Jun 23 22:04:43 2003 From: sunilramalingam@hotmail.com (Sunil Ramalingam) Date: Mon, 23 Jun 2003 14:04:43 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] enough already Message-ID:

I've seen plenty of silly emails from Doug Stambler, but I haven't seen any I thought were 'filthy.'

Sunil

>From: "Van Deventer, Jack"
>To:
>Subject: [Vision2020] enough already
>Date: Mon, 23 Jun 2003 13:43:43 -0700
>
>Dear V2020 participants,
>
>I've had enough of Douglas Stambler's verbal manure, especially with
>Vision 2020 his favorite spot to unload this filth.
>
>I would like to move that Douglas Stambler be dismissed from this list.
>
>Jack
>
>
>
>__________________________________
>
>Jack Van Deventer
>
>jack@wsu.edu
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Douglas Stambler [mailto:stopchristchurch@yahoo.com]
>Sent: Monday, June 23, 2003 12:25 PM
>To: vision2020@moscow.com
>Subject: [Vision2020] Is Doug Wilson An Adulterer? - thank you
>
>
>
>Is Doug Wilson An Adulterer? - thank you
>
> _____
>
>Do you Yahoo!?
>SBC Yahoo! DSL
>>/sbc/> - Now only $29.95 per month!
>

Help STOP SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* From donovanarnold@hotmail.com Mon Jun 23 22:05:31 2003 From: donovanarnold@hotmail.com (Donovan Arnold) Date: Mon, 23 Jun 2003 14:05:31 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] enough already Message-ID:

I agree Jack!

It is one thing to make a decent argument as to why you hold a certain opinion about someone or something. But Doug Stambler has gone WAY overboard with slanderous statements such as calling a member of this community an "adulterer". This is borderline libel. This forum is not to be used to harass and slander individual members of the community regardless of what they may or may not did or do. I suggest that we do the following:

1) Ban Doug from the forum if he sends one more post slandering someone

2) Allow no new members to the group unless they have a paying or university account.

This allows people that already exist using free accounts not to have to re-subscribe and allows keeps Doug out.

Donovan J Arnold 

>From: "Van Deventer, Jack"
>To:
>Subject: [Vision2020] enough already
>Date: Mon, 23 Jun 2003 13:43:43 -0700
>
>Dear V2020 participants,
>
>I've had enough of Douglas Stambler's verbal manure, especially with
>Vision 2020 his favorite spot to unload this filth.
>
>I would like to move that Douglas Stambler be dismissed from this list.
>
>Jack
>
>
>
>__________________________________
>
>Jack Van Deventer
>
>jack@wsu.edu
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Douglas Stambler [mailto:stopchristchurch@yahoo.com]
>Sent: Monday, June 23, 2003 12:25 PM
>To: vision2020@moscow.com
>Subject: [Vision2020] Is Doug Wilson An Adulterer? - thank you
>
>
>
>Is Doug Wilson An Adulterer? - thank you
>
> _____
>
>Do you Yahoo!?
>SBC Yahoo! DSL
>>/sbc/> - Now only $29.95 per month!
>

MSN 8 helps ELIMINATE E-MAIL VIRUSES. Get 2 months FREE*. From tomh@FNA.fsn.uidaho.edu Mon Jun 23 22:10:51 2003 From: tomh@FNA.fsn.uidaho.edu (Thomas Hansen) Date: Mon, 23 Jun 2003 14:10:51 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] enough already Message-ID: <165F697BE456F14EA4529F6B7BB6D4FC1F6F9F@daffy.dfm.uidaho.edu> This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C339CB.ECFFFE90 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I tend to strongly agree with dismissing Mr. Stambler. He abuses the privilege of being ignorant. =20 Bye Douglas, =20 Tom Hansen -----Original Message----- From: Donovan Arnold [mailto:donovanarnold@hotmail.com] Sent: Monday, June 23, 2003 2:06 PM To: jack@wsu.edu; vision2020@moscow.com Subject: Re: [Vision2020] enough already I agree Jack! It is one thing to make a decent argument as to why you hold a certain opinion about someone or something. But Doug Stambler has gone WAY = overboard with slanderous statements such as calling a member of this community = an "adulterer". This is borderline libel. This forum is not to be used to harass and slander individual members of the community regardless of = what they may or may not did or do. I suggest that we do the following: 1) Ban Doug from the forum if he sends one more post slandering someone 2) Allow no new members to the group unless they have a paying or = university account. This allows people that already exist using free accounts not to have = to re-subscribe and allows keeps Doug out.=20 Donovan J Arnold=20 >From: "Van Deventer, Jack"=20 >To:=20 >Subject: [Vision2020] enough already=20 >Date: Mon, 23 Jun 2003 13:43:43 -0700=20 >=20 >Dear V2020 participants,=20 >=20 >I've had enough of Douglas Stambler's verbal manure, especially with=20 >Vision 2020 his favorite spot to unload this filth.=20 >=20 >I would like to move that Douglas Stambler be dismissed from this = list.=20 >=20 >Jack=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >__________________________________=20 >=20 >Jack Van Deventer=20 >=20 >jack@wsu.edu=20 >=20 >-----Original Message-----=20 >From: Douglas Stambler [mailto:stopchristchurch@yahoo.com]=20 >Sent: Monday, June 23, 2003 12:25 PM=20 >To: vision2020@moscow.com=20 >Subject: [Vision2020] Is Doug Wilson An Adulterer? - thank you=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >Is Doug Wilson An Adulterer? - thank you=20 >=20 > _____=20 >=20 >Do you Yahoo!?=20 >SBC Yahoo! DSL=20 >>/sbc/> - Now only $29.95 per month!=20 >=20 _____ =20 MSN 8 helps ELIMINATE E-MAIL = VIRUSES. Get 2 months FREE*. = _____________________________________________________ List services made available by First Step Internet, serving the = communities of the Palouse since 1994. http://www.fsr.net = mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com =AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF= =AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF= =AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=20 ------_=_NextPart_001_01C339CB.ECFFFE90 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1"
I tend to strongly agree with dismissing Mr. Stambler.  He abuses the privilege of being ignorant.
 
Bye Douglas,
 
Tom Hansen
-----Original Message-----
From: Donovan Arnold [mailto:donovanarnold@hotmail.com]
Sent: Monday, June 23, 2003 2:06 PM
To: jack@wsu.edu; vision2020@moscow.com
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] enough already

I agree Jack!

It is one thing to make a decent argument as to why you hold a certain opinion about someone or something. But Doug Stambler has gone WAY overboard with slanderous statements such as calling a member of this community an "adulterer". This is borderline libel. This forum is not to be used to harass and slander individual members of the community regardless of what they may or may not did or do. I suggest that we do the following:

1) Ban Doug from the forum if he sends one more post slandering someone

2) Allow no new members to the group unless they have a paying or university account.

This allows people that already exist using free accounts not to have to re-subscribe and allows keeps Doug out.

Donovan J Arnold 

>From: "Van Deventer, Jack"
>To:
>Subject: [Vision2020] enough already
>Date: Mon, 23 Jun 2003 13:43:43 -0700
>
>Dear V2020 participants,
>
>I've had enough of Douglas Stambler's verbal manure, especially with
>Vision 2020 his favorite spot to unload this filth.
>
>I would like to move that Douglas Stambler be dismissed from this list.
>
>Jack
>
>
>
>__________________________________
>
>Jack Van Deventer
>
>jack@wsu.edu
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Douglas Stambler [mailto:stopchristchurch@yahoo.com]
>Sent: Monday, June 23, 2003 12:25 PM
>To: vision2020@moscow.com
>Subject: [Vision2020] Is Doug Wilson An Adulterer? - thank you
>
>
>
>Is Doug Wilson An Adulterer? - thank you
>
> _____
>
>Do you Yahoo!?
>SBC Yahoo! DSL
>>/sbc/> - Now only $29.95 per month!
>

MSN 8 helps ELIMINATE E-MAIL VIRUSES. Get 2 months FREE*. _____________________________________________________ List services made available by First Step Internet, serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994. http://www.fsr.net mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ
------_=_NextPart_001_01C339CB.ECFFFE90-- From ddjames@moscow.com Mon Jun 23 22:13:54 2003 From: ddjames@moscow.com (Deacon James) Date: Mon, 23 Jun 2003 14:13:54 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] enough already References: <98444CB31FE6BD4F969495E78B94DDB3287B34@mail.cbe.wsu.edu> <002301c339c9$2901f630$6a01a8c0@telus> <00f301c339cb$cca89350$831da13f@MOSCOW1> Message-ID: <003901c339cc$5a908c40$6a01a8c0@telus> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0036_01C33991.AE0FFB70 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I would say that we should ban him, and if he signs up again and = continues his silliness, it won't be that hard to spot him. Then we can = do it again. Deacon James ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Dan Carscallen=20 To: Deacon James=20 Sent: Monday, June 23, 2003 2:09 PM Subject: Re: [Vision2020] enough already Jack said: >Dear V2020 participants, >I've had enough of Douglas Stambler's verbal manure, especially with = Vision 2020 his favorite spot to unload this filth. =20 >I would like to move that Douglas Stambler be dismissed from this = list. Then Deacon agreed with: >I second the motion. I am tired of him and his ridiculous emails. As long as anyone with an email is allowed in, he'll be able to spread = his demon seed. There is probably a way to keep him off by not allowing = "freebie" email (aol, hotmail, yahoo, etc.), but there are too many = people who use that as their main avenue into V2020. It isn't that hard = to delete them when they show up, and I don't think anyone is taking it = seriously. =20 DC ------=_NextPart_000_0036_01C33991.AE0FFB70 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I would say that we should ban him, and = if he signs=20 up again and continues his silliness, it won't be that hard to spot him. = Then we=20 can do it again.
 
Deacon James
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Dan=20 Carscallen
Sent: Monday, June 23, 2003 = 2:09 PM
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] = enough=20 already

Jack = said:
 

>Dear V2020=20 participants,

>I=92ve had enough of = Douglas Stambler=92s=20 verbal manure, especially with Vision 2020 his favorite spot to unload = this=20 filth. 

>I would like to move that = Douglas=20 Stambler be dismissed from this = list.

 
Then Deacon = agreed=20 with:
 
>I second the = motion. I am tired=20 of him and his ridiculous emails.
 
As long as = anyone with an=20 email is allowed in, he'll be able to spread his demon seed.  = There is=20 probably a way to keep him off by not allowing "freebie" email (aol, = hotmail,=20 yahoo, etc.), but there are too many people who use that as their main = avenue=20 into V2020.  It=20 isn't that hard to delete them when they show up, and I don't think = anyone is=20 taking it seriously. 
 
DC
------=_NextPart_000_0036_01C33991.AE0FFB70-- From scooke@uidaho.edu Mon Jun 23 22:51:40 2003 From: scooke@uidaho.edu (Stephen Cooke) Date: Mon, 23 Jun 2003 14:51:40 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] Effects of State Economic Development Incentives Message-ID: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --Boundary_(ID_0cU2l+v/p2giwhMWg48ANA) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT FYI from Dave Kraybill at Ohio State Univ. Steve Cooke "The Effects of State Economic Development Incentives on Employment Growth of Establishments," Vol. 42, No. 4, 2002, pp. 703-730. With permission from Blackwell Publishers, I've posted a pdf file containing this article on my website at http://aede.osu.edu/people/kraybill.1/public/incentives.htm . Our research was nicely summarized in non-technical language in an economic development column in Governing magazine, June 2003. It is available on-line at http://www.governing.com/articles/6econ.htm . Dave Kraybill Professor Dept. of Agricultural, Environmental, and Development Economics Ohio State University, Columbus, OH 43210 Email: kraybill.1@osu.edu Web: http://aede.osu.edu/people/display.cfm?User_ID=kraybill1 Voice: 614-292-8721. Fax: 614-292-0078 --Boundary_(ID_0cU2l+v/p2giwhMWg48ANA) Content-type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT
FYI from Dave Kraybill at Ohio State Univ.
Steve Cooke
"The Effects of State Economic Development Incentives on Employment Growth of Establishments," Vol. 42, No. 4, 2002, pp. 703-730.  With permission from Blackwell Publishers, I've posted a pdf file containing this article on my website at

http://aede.osu.edu/people/kraybill.1/public/incentives.htm .

Our research was nicely summarized in non-technical language in an economic development column in Governing magazine, June 2003.  It is available on-line at

http://www.governing.com/articles/6econ.htm .


Dave Kraybill
Professor
Dept. of Agricultural, Environmental, and Development Economics
Ohio State University, Columbus, OH 43210

Email: kraybill.1@osu.edu
Web: http://aede.osu.edu/people/display.cfm?User_ID=kraybill1
Voice: 614-292-8721.  Fax: 614-292-0078

--Boundary_(ID_0cU2l+v/p2giwhMWg48ANA)-- From stopchristchurch@yahoo.com Mon Jun 23 22:58:11 2003 From: stopchristchurch@yahoo.com (Douglas Stambler) Date: Mon, 23 Jun 2003 14:58:11 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Vision2020] PRIVATE LETTER TO SUNIL In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030623215811.96996.qmail@web20512.mail.yahoo.com> --0-400369626-1056405491=:96856 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sunil: I have evidence to back that assertion. I also know that there is child abuse, both physical and sexual at Logos School; I know that Doug Wilson is molesting young men at Christ Church. Within 48 hours, I will be able to demonstrate concrete proof of all of this. You have my word. Do you have any idea what kind of a man Doug Wilson is, and how much evil he is putting down in this town? Do you know that I have been lied about basically since I got off the bus in Moscow last year? If no one stops Doug Wilson, then I will bring the evidence forth, and his career here will be but a punctuation mark in the town's history. In Christ, Douglas Stambler Sunil Ramalingam wrote: Douglas, This is over the line. When I posted to Vision 2020 earlier today, I hadn't seen this. While generally I don't think anyone should tell you what to post, or try to 'ban' you, I think you've gone too far on this one. This is just to you, not over V2020. Sunil Ramalingam >From: Douglas Stambler >To: vision2020@moscow.com >Subject: [Vision2020] Is Doug Wilson An Adulterer? - thank you >Date: Mon, 23 Jun 2003 13:24:47 -0700 (PDT) > >Is Doug Wilson An Adulterer? - thank you > > >--------------------------------- >Do you Yahoo!? >SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! --------------------------------- Add photos to your e-mail with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! --0-400369626-1056405491=:96856 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
Sunil:
 
I have evidence to back that assertion.  I also know that there is child abuse, both physical and sexual at Logos School; I know that Doug Wilson is molesting young men at Christ Church.
 
Within 48 hours, I will be able to demonstrate concrete proof of all of this.  You have my word.
 
Do you have any idea what kind of a man Doug Wilson is, and how much evil he is putting down in this town?  Do you know that I have been lied about basically since I got off the bus in Moscow last year?  If no one stops Doug Wilson, then I will bring the evidence forth, and his career here will be but a punctuation mark in the town's history.
 
In Christ,
Douglas Stambler

Sunil Ramalingam <sunilramalingam@hotmail.com> wrote:

Douglas,

This is over the line.  When I posted to Vision 2020 earlier today, I hadn't seen this.  While generally I don't think anyone should tell you what to post, or try to 'ban' you, I think you've gone too far on this one. 

This is just to you, not over V2020.

Sunil Ramalingam

>From: Douglas Stambler
>To: vision2020@moscow.com
>Subject: [Vision2020] Is Doug Wilson An Adulterer? - thank you
>Date: Mon, 23 Jun 2003 13:24:47 -0700 (PDT)
>
>Is Doug Wilson An Adulterer? - thank you
>
>
>---------------------------------
>Do you Yahoo!?
>SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month!

Add photos to your e-mail with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*.

Do you Yahoo!?
SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! --0-400369626-1056405491=:96856-- From hayman@moscow.com Tue Jun 24 00:08:34 2003 From: hayman@moscow.com (hayman@moscow.com) Date: Mon, 23 Jun 2003 23:08:34 GMT Subject: [Vision2020] enough already Message-ID: <200306232238.h5NMc3QU080803@whale2.fsr.net> Hello people, I agree with the public disdain of a certain individual's perceived lack of taste, morality, intelligence and perspective. However, like the TV, turn it off. The delete key works. He will not quit posting; he was never "cleared" of attempted account deletion as he promised, for example. By virtue of the web, this forum is global, not only local. Our lives and perspectives are made larger through discourse. Libel and slander lie within the realm of the courts. Do we really want to exclude submissions on the basis of paying or university accounts? So much for much intra- and intercommunication. As well, the attention lavished upon such a misguided (in postings) individual simply ontologizes his ranting, which amounts to an almost tacit acceptance of idiocy. In homage to the delete key, libel laws and free speech, Warren Hayman >
>

I agree Jack!

>

It is one thing to make a decent argument as to why you hold a certain opinion about someone or something. But Doug Stambler has gone WAY overboard with slanderous statements such as calling a member of this community an "adulterer". This is borderline libel. This forum is not to be used to harass and slander individual members of the community regardless of what they may or may not did or do. I suggest that we do the following:

>

1) Ban Doug from the forum if he sends one more post slandering someone

>
>

2) Allow no new members to the group unless they have a paying or university account.

>
>

This allows people that already exist using free accounts not to have to re-subscribe and allows keeps Doug out.

>
>

Donovan J Arnold 

>
>
>
>From: "Van Deventer, Jack" >
>
>To: >
>
>Subject: [Vision2020] enough already >
>
>Date: Mon, 23 Jun 2003 13:43:43 -0700 >
>
> >
>
>Dear V2020 participants, >
>
> >
>
>I've had enough of Douglas Stambler's verbal manure, especially with >
>
>Vision 2020 his favorite spot to unload this filth. >
>
> >
>
>I would like to move that Douglas Stambler be dismissed from this list. >
>
> >
>
>Jack >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
>__________________________________ >
>
> >
>
>Jack Van Deventer >
>
> >
>
>jack@wsu.edu >
>
> >
>
>-----Original Message----- >
>
>From: Douglas Stambler [mailto:stopchristchurch@yahoo.com] >
>
>Sent: Monday, June 23, 2003 12:25 PM >
>
>To: vision2020@moscow.com >
>
>Subject: [Vision2020] Is Doug Wilson An Adulterer? - thank you >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
>Is Doug Wilson An Adulterer? - thank you >
>
> >
>
> _____ >
>
> >
>
>Do you Yahoo!? >
>
>SBC Yahoo! DSL >
>
>>/sbc/> - Now only $29.95 per month! >
>
> >
>
>

MSN 8 helps ELIMINATE E-MAIL VIRUSES. Get 2 months FREE*. > > _____________________________________________________ > List services made available by First Step Internet, > serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994. > http://www.fsr.net > mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com > ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ > --------------------------------------------- This message was sent by First Step Internet. http://www.fsr.net/ From dkaag@turbonet.com Mon Jun 23 23:52:06 2003 From: dkaag@turbonet.com (Don Kaag) Date: Mon, 23 Jun 2003 15:52:06 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] Little Dougie Stambler runs off at the brain yet again... Message-ID: <50133014-A5CD-11D7-A442-000393B120B6@turbonet.com> --Apple-Mail-6-792114812 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Visionaries: I am reluctant to waste your time with this, but here he goes again. Yes, ban him. Don Kaag IS IT LIBEL TO TELL THE TRUTH?=A0 I HAVE BEEN ASKED BY A WELL-RESPECTED=20= COMMUNITY MEMBER TO PROVIDE INFORMATION ABOUT DOUG WILSON AND CHRIST=20 CHURCH FOR AN UPCOMING CLASS ACTION LAWSUIT AGAINST THE CHURCH. =A0 I WILL NOT BE LIED ABOUT WITHOUT DEFENDING MYSELF WITH THE TRUTH, YOU=20 CAN COUNT ON THAT. =A0 AS FOR YOUR ATTEMPT TO SCARE ME WITH VIOLENCE, GO PEEL AN EGG. =A0 YOU'RE A HOSER. =A0 IN CHRIST, DOUGLAS STAMBLER Don Kaag wrote: All right Mr. Stambler, I generally ignore you, but your silly games are beginning to get on my nerves. It has been obvious for a long time that your elevator doesn't go all the way to the top of whatever edifice you delusionally think you are building, but direct slander is way over the line of polite discourse on this or any other forum. I am not a member of Christ Church, but I have friends who are. Doug Wilson, when we have run across each other here in Moscow or at either of the two universities, has been personable and polite. He has a well-developed sense of humor, which generally endears someone to me. I have met his wife and daughter, and they are lovely women. Where does your weasely tiny mind get off posting such scurrilous garbage about him, and by extension, his family and his marriage? If you had posted your latest about me, someone of our mutual acquaintance would be contacting you to set up a satisfactory place to meet so that I could teach you some manners. Given your past performances, I suspect that is the only way you are ever going to learn any. Go away. Stop antagonizing people. No one likes you, or your juvenile postings. Get a life. Get out of town. Get lost. Go bother someone else. Grow up. Get therapy. Start a third party campaign for president. Just quit being such a painfully inept, whiny, twit on Vision2020. Don Kaag On Monday, June 23, 2003, at 01:24 PM, Douglas Stambler wrote: > Is Doug Wilson An Adulterer? - thank you --Apple-Mail-6-792114812 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/enriched; charset=ISO-8859-1 Visionaries: I am reluctant to waste your time with this, but here he goes again. Yes, ban him. Don Kaag IS IT LIBEL TO TELL THE TRUTH?=A0 I HAVE BEEN ASKED BY A WELL-RESPECTED COMMUNITY MEMBER TO PROVIDE INFORMATION ABOUT DOUG WILSON AND CHRIST CHURCH FOR AN UPCOMING CLASS ACTION LAWSUIT AGAINST THE CHURCH. =A0 I WILL NOT BE LIED ABOUT WITHOUT DEFENDING MYSELF WITH THE TRUTH, YOU CAN COUNT ON THAT. =A0 AS FOR YOUR ATTEMPT TO SCARE ME WITH VIOLENCE, GO PEEL AN EGG. =A0 YOU'RE A HOSER. =A0 IN CHRIST, DOUGLAS STAMBLER Don Kaag < wrote: All right Mr. Stambler, I generally ignore you, but your silly games are beginning to get on my nerves. It has been obvious for a long time that your elevator doesn't go all the way to the top of whatever edifice you delusionally think you are building, but direct slander is way over the line of polite discourse on this or any other forum. I am not a member of Christ Church, but I have friends who are. Doug Wilson, when we have run across each other here in Moscow or at either of the two universities, has been personable and polite. He has a well-developed sense of humor, which generally endears someone to me. I have met his wife and daughter, and they are lovely women. Where does your weasely tiny mind get off posting such scurrilous garbage about him, and by extension, his family and his marriage? If you had posted your latest about me, someone of our mutual acquaintance would be contacting you to set up a satisfactory place to meet so that I could teach you some manners. Given your past performances, I suspect that is the only way you are ever going to learn any. Go away. Stop antagonizing people. No one likes you, or your juvenile postings. Get a life. Get out of town. Get lost. Go bother someone else. Grow up. Get therapy. Start a third party campaign for president. Just quit being such a painfully inept, whiny, twit on Vision2020. Don Kaag On Monday, June 23, 2003, at 01:24 PM, Douglas Stambler wrote: > Is Doug Wilson An Adulterer? - thank you --Apple-Mail-6-792114812-- From dkaag@turbonet.com Mon Jun 23 23:36:03 2003 From: dkaag@turbonet.com (Don Kaag) Date: Mon, 23 Jun 2003 15:36:03 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] "Is Doug Wilson an Adulterer?" Message-ID: <125E8176-A5CB-11D7-A442-000393B120B6@turbonet.com> All right Mr. Stambler, I generally ignore you, but your silly games are beginning to get on my nerves. It has been obvious for a long time that your elevator doesn't go all the way to the top of whatever edifice you delusionally think you are building, but direct slander is way over the line of polite discourse on this or any other forum. I am not a member of Christ Church, but I have friends who are. Doug Wilson, when we have run across each other here in Moscow or at either of the two universities, has been personable and polite. He has a well-developed sense of humor, which generally endears someone to me. I have met his wife and daughter, and they are lovely women. Where does your weasely tiny mind get off posting such scurrilous garbage about him, and by extension, his family and his marriage? If you had posted your latest about me, someone of our mutual acquaintance would be contacting you to set up a satisfactory place to meet so that I could teach you some manners. Given your past performances, I suspect that is the only way you are ever going to learn any. Go away. Stop antagonizing people. No one likes you, or your juvenile postings. Get a life. Get out of town. Get lost. Go bother someone else. Grow up. Get therapy. Start a third party campaign for president. Just quit being such a painfully inept, whiny, twit on Vision2020. Don Kaag On Monday, June 23, 2003, at 01:24 PM, Douglas Stambler wrote: > Is Doug Wilson An Adulterer? - thank you > From jack@wsu.edu Tue Jun 24 00:07:33 2003 From: jack@wsu.edu (Van Deventer, Jack) Date: Mon, 23 Jun 2003 16:07:33 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] enough already Message-ID: <98444CB31FE6BD4F969495E78B94DDB3287B3C@mail.cbe.wsu.edu> Warren, V2020 shouldn't be used as a weapon. Moscow is a wonderful place to live and V2020 has been a great place to exchange ideas. You rightly noted that Stambler "lack[s] taste, morality, intelligence and perspective." In Moscow, we don't have an open sewer running through downtown; neither should we allow raw sewage on V2020. Jack __________________________________ Jack Van Deventer jack@wsu.edu -----Original Message----- From: hayman@moscow.com [mailto:hayman@moscow.com] Sent: Monday, June 23, 2003 3:09 PM To: Donovan Arnold; Van Deventer, Jack; vision2020@moscow.com Subject: Re: [Vision2020] enough already Hello people, I agree with the public disdain of a certain individual's perceived lack of taste, morality, intelligence and perspective. However, like the TV, turn it off. The delete key works. He will not quit posting; he was never "cleared" of attempted account deletion as he promised, for example. By virtue of the web, this forum is global, not only local. Our lives and perspectives are made larger through discourse. Libel and slander lie within the realm of the courts. Do we really want to exclude submissions on the basis of paying or university accounts? So much for much intra- and intercommunication. As well, the attention lavished upon such a misguided (in postings) individual simply ontologizes his ranting, which amounts to an almost tacit acceptance of idiocy. In homage to the delete key, libel laws and free speech, Warren Hayman >
>

I agree Jack!

>

It is one thing to make a decent argument as to why you hold a certain opinion about someone or something. But Doug Stambler has gone WAY overboard with slanderous statements such as calling a member of this community an "adulterer". This is borderline libel. This forum is not to be used to harass and slander individual members of the community regardless of what they may or may not did or do. I suggest that we do the following:

>

1) Ban Doug from the forum if he sends one more post slandering someone

>
>

2) Allow no new members to the group unless they have a paying or university account.

>
>

This allows people that already exist using free accounts not to have to re-subscribe and allows keeps Doug out.

>
>

Donovan J Arnold 

>
>
>
>From: "Van Deventer, Jack" >
>
>To: >
>
>Subject: [Vision2020] enough already >
>
>Date: Mon, 23 Jun 2003 13:43:43 -0700 >
>
> >
>
>Dear V2020 participants, >
>
> >
>
>I've had enough of Douglas Stambler's verbal manure, especially with >
>
>Vision 2020 his favorite spot to unload this filth. >
>
> >
>
>I would like to move that Douglas Stambler be dismissed from this list. >
>
> >
>
>Jack >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
>__________________________________ >
>
> >
>
>Jack Van Deventer >
>
> >
>
>jack@wsu.edu >
>
> >
>
>-----Original Message----- >
>
>From: Douglas Stambler [mailto:stopchristchurch@yahoo.com] >
>
>Sent: Monday, June 23, 2003 12:25 PM >
>
>To: vision2020@moscow.com >
>
>Subject: [Vision2020] Is Doug Wilson An Adulterer? - thank you >
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>Is Doug Wilson An Adulterer? - thank you >
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MSN 8 helps ELIMINATE E-MAIL VIRUSES. Get 2 months FREE*. > > _____________________________________________________ > List services made available by First Step Internet, > serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994. > http://www.fsr.net > mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com > ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ > --------------------------------------------- This message was sent by First Step Internet. http://www.fsr.net/ From stopchristchurch@yahoo.com Tue Jun 24 00:08:31 2003 From: stopchristchurch@yahoo.com (Douglas Stambler) Date: Mon, 23 Jun 2003 16:08:31 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Vision2020] WHY IS THE EVIL DOUG WILSON STANDS FOR ACCEPTABLE IN MOSCOW? Message-ID: <20030623230831.49112.qmail@web20510.mail.yahoo.com> --0-1159061552-1056409711=:48446 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii WHY IS THE EVIL DOUG WILSON STANDS FOR ACCEPTABLE IN MOSCOW? --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! --0-1159061552-1056409711=:48446 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii WHY IS THE EVIL DOUG WILSON STANDS FOR ACCEPTABLE IN MOSCOW?

Do you Yahoo!?
SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! --0-1159061552-1056409711=:48446-- From london@moscow.com Tue Jun 24 00:21:53 2003 From: london@moscow.com (Bill London) Date: Mon, 23 Jun 2003 16:21:53 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] economic development Message-ID: <3EF78B90.85154DCC@moscow.com> My thanks to Steve Cooke for suggesting to V2020 that we should read the article (text below) at Governing.com. This article summarizes research done in Ohio on the efficacy of that state's economic development effort (giving various tax breaks and incentives to businesses to expand). The researchers discovered that the incentives did not work--"on average, businesses accepting financial assistance created fewer jobs than they would have created if they had not accepted financial assistance." The researchers also found that the economic development establishment inflated the number of jobs they created--"businesses taking state money announced much more ambitious plans to add workers but came in at about the same level as the businesses that didn’t take state money." The article summarizes: "their conclusions certainly fit into a long line of research suggesting that money — whether financial incentives or tax breaks — is not the most important factor in determining where businesses locate and whether they expand. Availability of labor, quality of life, proximity to certain pieces of big-ticket infrastructure such as airports — all these things matter far more than money." This article is available at http://www.governing.com/articles/6econ.htm I hope that the new economic development strategic planning group considers this kind of research. For too long, economic development has been a sacred cow here, and too many are looking for ways to create tax breaks, weaken zoning laws and throw away money on illusive job creation dreams. BL -------------- >From Governing’s June 2003 issue ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT COLUMN WILLIAM FULTON Making Work A new study suggests that state and local tax incentives for existing businesses don’t create new jobs. he torrent of announcements, press releases and gubernatorial statements on economic development keeps coming: companies expanding, companies arriving, jobs being created, tax revenue being increased — all, we’re told, because of carefully crafted economic development programs and the wise use of tax dollars to encourage business investment. Skeptics have always questioned the job-creation statistics in this gush of press releases and reports, and now there is at least one piece of evidence suggesting that the skeptics are right. A new article in the Journal of Regional Science — written by Todd Gabe of the University of Maine and David Kraybill of Ohio State University — takes a critical look at the effect of one state-level economic development program. Gabe and Kraybill did a statistical analysis of 366 Ohio companies — existing companies, not new companies — that expanded between 1993 and 1995. Some of them received financial assistance from the state economic development program; some did not. And the results are both remarkable and remarkably clear: Providing financial incentives to existing businesses makes little difference in creating jobs. In fact, based on a regression analysis, the two professors found that, on average, businesses accepting financial assistance created fewer jobs than they would have created if they had not accepted financial assistance. This is not news that economic development professionals want to hear, of course, and the study has been roundly criticized by state officials. But Kraybill says he also has heard from a number of economic development people who don’t like the incentive game and are reassured by evidence that subsidies don’t matter much. And that’s not surprising, either, because the study highlighted another unfortunate reality in the economic development business: the tremendous pressure to justify one’s existence by pumping up job-creation numbers. Gabe and Kraybill not only looked at the number of jobs actually created but also compared that with the number of jobs estimated at the time the business expansion was announced. What they found was telling. The businesses that did not accept economic development incentives announced expansions averaging 45 workers — and hit the target exactly. But the businesses accepting incentives announced expansions averaging 91 workers — and expanded by only 51 workers. In other words, the businesses taking state money announced much more ambitious plans to add workers but came in at about the same level as the businesses that didn’t take state money. This is a finding that ought to send a chill down the back of every state economic development director, because it calls into question all those job-creation numbers contained in all those press releases and gubernatorial announcements and thick state reports on economic growth. Whenever State X or Governor Y announces that the state has created 10,000 or 40,000 or 100,000 jobs, those numbers are usually based on the announced estimates — not actual results. At a time when state budget directors are looking for every dollar they can, we’re beginning to see big fights over whether economic development programs are vital to restoring economic health or expendable because they don’t do anything. In California, for example, the Trade, Technology and Commerce Agency has taken a 70 percent budget cut, and most economic development functions have been transferred to a tiny research section of the governor’s office. There’s also talk of demoting it from a Cabinet-level department. This kind of battle will go on in statehouses across the nation this year and next. Placing job creation numbers in serious question is likely to empower the budget directors in their search for more items to redline. Gabe and Kraybill are careful to clarify that their study dealt only with Ohio, and only with expansions of existing businesses — not new businesses that have been lured to a state through economic development incentives. The results might be different in other states and might have been different for new businesses. But their conclusions certainly fit into a long line of research suggesting that money — whether financial incentives or tax breaks — is not the most important factor in determining where businesses locate and whether they expand. Availability of labor, quality of life, proximity to certain pieces of big-ticket infrastructure such as airports — all these things matter far more than money. But they are much more difficult to quantify and much less fun for politicians to deal with. In politics, pork is a currency that everybody understands, and a well-respected measurement of whether or not you are “delivering” for your constituents. Based on Gabe and Kraybill’s study, however, it would behoove our governors to focus less on delivering pork directly to the factory owners, and more on putting the pork into labor training, infrastructure and the other things that businesses really need to thrive. From stopchristchurch@yahoo.com Tue Jun 24 00:32:23 2003 From: stopchristchurch@yahoo.com (Douglas Stambler) Date: Mon, 23 Jun 2003 16:32:23 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Vision2020] listen good... In-Reply-To: <200306232326.h5NNQFQU057970@whale2.fsr.net> Message-ID: <20030623233223.63138.qmail@web20501.mail.yahoo.com> --0-1613309960-1056411143=:62509 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii now listen up for a change... if my assertion that child abuse is going on at Christ Church is true, then maybe SOMEBODY like you should do something publicly to help those kids instead of just listening to the noise Doug Wilson has created about how much of a great debater he is. i have spoken with nick gier, a former professor of Doug Wilson's: nick told me that doug wilson is essentially a perpetual liar (not those words, but the sentiment). Doug Wilson has kept appearances going for years, but now there is tangible evidence that the Calvinism he infuses into the curriculum at Logos is resulting in child abuse by the staff there against the children. THINK ABOUT THE KIDS!! so, if i'm right, i stay and do my work here...if i'm right, i'm gonna ask you to leave this town, because you haven't made a constructive contribution in all your time in moscow. remember the notice i put online about who i'll ask to leave when i get back? one has already packed his bags: MARK COOK. i think Doug Wilson and his sour brood should be next, but i'm going to leave that up to God. i think you're a poser... In Christ, Douglas Stambler hayman@moscow.com wrote: I made a request, not an assertion. Where is the "wrong" in my question? > SURE: if i'm wrong, i'll go away, if you're wrong, you leave town... > > hayman@moscow.com wrote:Could you please shut up and stop posting? > > > WHY IS THE EVIL DOUG WILSON STANDS FOR ACCEPTABLE IN > MOSCOW? > > > > > > --------------------------------- > > Do you Yahoo!? > > SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! > > > --------------------------------------------- > This message was sent by First Step Internet. > http://www.fsr.net/ > > > > > --------------------------------- > Do you Yahoo!? > SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! --------------------------------------------- This message was sent by First Step Internet. http://www.fsr.net/ --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! --0-1613309960-1056411143=:62509 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
now listen up for a change...
 
if my assertion that child abuse is going on at Christ Church is true, then maybe SOMEBODY like you should do something publicly to help those kids instead of just listening to the noise Doug Wilson has created about how much of a great debater he is.
 
i have spoken with nick gier, a former professor of Doug Wilson's: nick told me that doug wilson is essentially a perpetual liar (not those words, but the sentiment).  Doug Wilson has kept appearances going for years, but now there is tangible evidence that the Calvinism he infuses into the curriculum at Logos is resulting in child abuse by the staff there against the children.  THINK ABOUT THE KIDS!!
 
so, if i'm right, i stay and do my work here...if i'm right, i'm gonna ask you to leave this town, because you haven't made a constructive contribution in all your time in moscow.
 
remember the notice i put online about who i'll ask to leave when i get back?  one has already packed his bags: MARK COOK.
 
i think Doug Wilson and his sour brood should be next, but i'm going to leave that up to God.
 
i think you're a poser...
 
In Christ,
Douglas Stambler

hayman@moscow.com wrote:
I made a request, not an assertion. Where is the "wrong" in my question?

> SURE: if i'm wrong, i'll go away, if you're wrong, you leave town...
>
> hayman@moscow.com wrote:Could you please shut up and stop
posting?
>
> > WHY IS THE EVIL DOUG WILSON STANDS FOR ACCEPTABLE IN
> MOSCOW?
> >
> >
> > ---------------------------------
> > Do you Yahoo!?
> > SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month!
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------
> This message was sent by First Step Internet.
> http://www.fsr.net/
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>
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> ---------------------------------
> Do you Yahoo!?
> SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month!


---------------------------------------------
This message was sent by First Step Internet.
http://www.fsr.net/

Do you Yahoo!?
SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! --0-1613309960-1056411143=:62509-- From dale@courtneys.us Tue Jun 24 00:36:47 2003 From: dale@courtneys.us (Dale Courtney) Date: Mon, 23 Jun 2003 16:36:47 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] enough already References: <98444CB31FE6BD4F969495E78B94DDB3287B34@mail.cbe.wsu.edu> <002301c339c9$2901f630$6a01a8c0@telus> <00f301c339cb$cca89350$831da13f@MOSCOW1> <003901c339cc$5a908c40$6a01a8c0@telus> Message-ID: <028701c339e0$509deb10$12317883@DMCLAPTOP2> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0284_01C339A5.A3893090 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable At what point is FSR and perhaps Bill London and the other moderators = liable for providing a forum for libelous and slanderous statements?=20 The Daily News is libel for any Editorials that they print that are = slanderous/liable. There have been legal findings that show that ISP's = are libel for any slanderous/libel statements posted on their system.=20 I'm going to mention this to the FSR bubbas. We may well find ourselves = shut-down until this is resolved; otherwise, FSR may find themselves up = to their ears in legal brouhaha. Best, Dale ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Deacon James=20 To: vision2020@moscow.com=20 Sent: Monday, June 23, 2003 14:13 Subject: Re: [Vision2020] enough already I would say that we should ban him, and if he signs up again and = continues his silliness, it won't be that hard to spot him. Then we can = do it again. Deacon James ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Dan Carscallen=20 To: Deacon James=20 Sent: Monday, June 23, 2003 2:09 PM Subject: Re: [Vision2020] enough already Jack said: >Dear V2020 participants, >I've had enough of Douglas Stambler's verbal manure, especially = with Vision 2020 his favorite spot to unload this filth. =20 >I would like to move that Douglas Stambler be dismissed from this = list. Then Deacon agreed with: >I second the motion. I am tired of him and his ridiculous emails. As long as anyone with an email is allowed in, he'll be able to = spread his demon seed. There is probably a way to keep him off by not = allowing "freebie" email (aol, hotmail, yahoo, etc.), but there are too = many people who use that as their main avenue into V2020. It isn't that = hard to delete them when they show up, and I don't think anyone is = taking it seriously. =20 DC ------=_NextPart_000_0284_01C339A5.A3893090 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
At what point is FSR and perhaps Bill London and the = other=20 moderators liable for providing a forum for libelous and slanderous = statements?
 
The Daily News is libel for any Editorials that they = print=20 that are slanderous/liable. There have been legal findings that show = that ISP's=20 are libel for any slanderous/libel statements posted on their system.=20
 
I'm going to mention this to the FSR bubbas. We may = well find=20 ourselves shut-down until this is resolved; otherwise, FSR may find = themselves=20 up to their ears in legal brouhaha.
 
Best,
Dale
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Deacon James=20
Sent: Monday, June 23, 2003 = 14:13
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] = enough=20 already

I would say that we should ban him, = and if he=20 signs up again and continues his silliness, it won't be that hard to = spot him.=20 Then we can do it again.
 
Deacon James
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Dan=20 Carscallen
Sent: Monday, June 23, 2003 = 2:09=20 PM
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] = enough=20 already

Jack = said:
 

>Dear V2020=20 participants,

>I=92ve had enough of = Douglas=20 Stambler=92s verbal manure, especially with Vision 2020 his favorite = spot to=20 unload this filth. 

>I would like to move that = Douglas=20 Stambler be dismissed from this = list.

 
Then = Deacon agreed=20 with:
 
>I second the = motion. I am=20 tired of him and his ridiculous emails.
 
As long = as anyone with=20 an email is allowed in, he'll be able to spread his demon = seed.  There=20 is probably a way to keep him off by not allowing "freebie" email = (aol,=20 hotmail, yahoo, etc.), but there are too many people who use that as = their=20 main avenue into V2020.  It isn't that hard to delete them when they = show up,=20 and I don't think anyone is taking it seriously. 
 
DC
------=_NextPart_000_0284_01C339A5.A3893090-- From jdanahy@turbonet.com Tue Jun 24 00:48:14 2003 From: jdanahy@turbonet.com (John Danahy) Date: Mon, 23 Jun 2003 16:48:14 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] Water and Moscow Message-ID: <000001c339e1$ece34cd0$e274e4ce@laurie3zo89bgq> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0001_01C339A7.408474D0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I will be unable to attend tonight's meeting, and hope some who will attend could answer a few questions I have. I am in favor of conservation, even going so far as to promoting laws to require conservation. I was happy to see that I do many of the things suggested in the recent water survey already, and can easily do more. How many households and businesses in our community purchase "bottled water" from private businesses because the water from the tap is undrinkable? (I work in the Federal Building and yes, we must buy bottled water) I recently saw where it is claimed that water pumped from the aquifer doubles from May to June. I think the amount is 2 million to 4 million gallons per day. How is that amount divided between civic institutions, (city, county, etc) business interests, (Culligan) and private home owners? If it is a good idea for me to water my grass in the early hours of the morning using an irrigation system, why does the city water the grass around City Hall at eleven in the morning using a leaky hose and air delivered sprinklers moved around by hand? How much water exits our water treatment facility and where does it go? Can it be recycled? Do Moscow's building codes promote efficient use of low flush toilets? It does no good to install low flush toilets if the plumbing design requires two flushes to work! What exactly is the city going to do to promote conservation of water by city employees, departments, and administrators? It is good to remember that the "water system" here is open ended, we pump it out, use it once, and send it to treatment and its gone, Should we try to close that system? John Danahy jdanahy@turbonet.com ------=_NextPart_000_0001_01C339A7.408474D0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

I will be unable to attend tonight’s meeting, = and hope some who will attend could answer a few questions I have.  I am in = favor of conservation, even going so far as to promoting laws to require = conservation.  I was happy to see that I do many of the things suggested in the recent = water survey already, and can easily do more.

 

How many households and businesses in our community = purchase “bottled water” from private businesses because the water = from the tap is undrinkable?  (I work in the Federal Building and yes, we must buy bottled = water)

 

I recently saw where it is claimed that water pumped = from the aquifer doubles from May to June.  I think the amount is 2 = million to 4 million gallons per day.  How is that amount divided between = civic institutions, (city, county, etc) business interests, (Culligan) and = private home owners?

 

If it is a good idea for me to water my grass in the = early hours of the morning using an irrigation system, why does the city water = the grass around City Hall at eleven in the morning using a leaky hose and = air delivered sprinklers moved around by hand?

 

How much water exits our water treatment facility and = where does it go?  Can it be recycled?

 

Do Moscow’s building codes promote efficient use of low flush toilets?  It does = no good to install low flush toilets if the plumbing design requires two = flushes to work!

 

What exactly is the city going to do to promote = conservation of water by city employees, departments, and = administrators?

 

It is good to remember that the “water = system” here is open ended, we pump it out, use it once, and send it to = treatment and its gone,  Should we try to close that system?

 

John Danahy

jdanahy@turbonet.com

 

------=_NextPart_000_0001_01C339A7.408474D0-- From dale@courtneys.us Tue Jun 24 00:53:06 2003 From: dale@courtneys.us (Dale Courtney) Date: Mon, 23 Jun 2003 16:53:06 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] enough already References: <98444CB31FE6BD4F969495E78B94DDB3287B34@mail.cbe.wsu.edu> <002301c339c9$2901f630$6a01a8c0@telus> <00f301c339cb$cca89350$831da13f@MOSCOW1> <003901c339cc$5a908c40$6a01a8c0@telus> <028701c339e0$509deb10$12317883@DMCLAPTOP2> Message-ID: <030f01c339e2$98901f40$12317883@DMCLAPTOP2> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_030A_01C339A7.EAFE1E70 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Visionaries, I wrote the Email below and was asked off-line if I was threatening a = law-suite.=20 No, I'm not threatening a lawsuit; That's not what I was trying to = convey.=20 However, FSR needs to be aware that it is hosting a website where = libelous statements are being made and hosted (see: = http://lists2.fsr.net/pipermail/vision2020/2003-June/002698.html).=20 When people can find libelous material on the internet, the ISP is often = libel for hosting it.=20 That was my only point.=20 Best, Dale Courtney=20 ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Dale Courtney=20 To: vision2020@moscow.com=20 Sent: Monday, June 23, 2003 16:36 Subject: Re: [Vision2020] enough already At what point is FSR and perhaps Bill London and the other moderators = liable for providing a forum for libelous and slanderous statements?=20 The Daily News is libel for any Editorials that they print that are = slanderous/liable. There have been legal findings that show that ISP's = are libel for any slanderous/libel statements posted on their system.=20 I'm going to mention this to the FSR bubbas. We may well find = ourselves shut-down until this is resolved; otherwise, FSR may find = themselves up to their ears in legal brouhaha. Best, Dale ------=_NextPart_000_030A_01C339A7.EAFE1E70 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Visionaries,
 
I wrote the Email below and was asked = off-line if=20 I was threatening a law-suite.
 
No, I'm not threatening a lawsuit; That's not what I = was=20 trying to convey.
 
However, FSR needs to be aware that it is hosting a = website=20 where libelous statements are being made and hosted (see: http://lists2.fsr.net/pipermail/vision2020/2003-June/002698.html).=20
 
When people can find libelous material on the = internet, the=20 ISP is often libel for hosting it.
 
That was my only point.
 
Best,
Dale Courtney 
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Dale = Courtney=20
Sent: Monday, June 23, 2003 = 16:36
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] = enough=20 already

At what point is FSR and perhaps Bill London and = the other=20 moderators liable for providing a forum for libelous and = slanderous=20 statements?
 
The Daily News is libel for any Editorials that = they print=20 that are slanderous/liable. There have been legal findings that show = that=20 ISP's are libel for any slanderous/libel statements posted on their = system.=20
 
I'm going to mention this to the FSR bubbas. We = may well=20 find ourselves shut-down until this is resolved; otherwise, FSR may = find=20 themselves up to their ears in legal brouhaha.
 
Best,
Dale
------=_NextPart_000_030A_01C339A7.EAFE1E70-- From stopchristchurch@yahoo.com Tue Jun 24 00:58:46 2003 From: stopchristchurch@yahoo.com (Remember This??) Date: Mon, 23 Jun 2003 16:58:46 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Vision2020] REMEMBER THIS GREAT POST? - thank you Message-ID: <20030623235846.21185.qmail@web20512.mail.yahoo.com> --0-1225986378-1056412726=:21156 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Fellow Visionaries: Jello for breakfast! Watch Moscow's favorite man of God slither, slip, and slide. Hey Wilson, according to the Bible, is it ever acceptable to knowingly make false statements about another man, even if you think he has wronged you? Please show us your "fixed" standard. Cordially, Thomas Bartnick --0-1225986378-1056412726=:21156 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
Fellow Visionaries:

Jello for breakfast! Watch Moscow's favorite man of God slither, slip, and slide.

Hey Wilson, according to the Bible, is it ever acceptable to knowingly make false
statements about another man, even if you think he has wronged you? Please show us
your "fixed" standard.

Cordially,

Thomas Bartnick

--0-1225986378-1056412726=:21156-- From FCS@Moscow.com Tue Jun 24 00:58:14 2003 From: FCS@Moscow.com (Mark Seman) Date: Mon, 23 Jun 2003 16:58:14 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] enough already In-Reply-To: <028701c339e0$509deb10$12317883@DMCLAPTOP2> Message-ID: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_011F_01C339A8.A2C58B10 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Vision2020 is 1% news/info and 99% entertainment/spam. The 1% that post daily seem to take it 99% too seriously. Mark *** ***** *** Mark & Heather Seman Full Circle Studios 828 South Washington, Suite B Moscow, Idaho 83843 v 208-883-3276 f 208-883-0112 FCS@Moscow.com ------=_NextPart_000_011F_01C339A8.A2C58B10 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Vision2020 is 1% news/info and 99%=20 entertainment/spam.  The 1% that post daily seem to take it 99% too = seriously.
 
Mark
*** ***** ***
Mark & Heather Seman
Full Circle Studios
828 South Washington, Suite B
Moscow, Idaho 83843
v 208-883-3276
f 208-883-0112
FCS@Moscow.com
 
------=_NextPart_000_011F_01C339A8.A2C58B10-- From stopchristchurch@yahoo.com Tue Jun 24 01:03:21 2003 From: stopchristchurch@yahoo.com (Remember This??) Date: Mon, 23 Jun 2003 17:03:21 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Vision2020] How About This Great Post From R. Huskey? Message-ID: <20030624000321.94757.qmail@web20511.mail.yahoo.com> --0-1797874357-1056413001=:93661 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii FROM AUGUST 21, 2002 DonaldH675@aol.com wrote: > Dear Visionaries, > Just to clarify my understanding of Doug Wilson et al.'s understanding of the > noble nature of keeping slaves I extended my research today. The following > web address deals with the issue of "theonomy' or 'christian > reconstructionism', " which is, as nearly as I can tell, the operational > nature of christian government, family management etc. The article can be > found at the website below. > http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&ie=ISO-8859-1&q=theonomists+%2B+roche > > The article, written by Dr. Thomas P. Roche, appears in Religion and Politics > Digest, an on-line Calvinistic-style journal. Dr. Roche is an academically > trained scholar, with a specialty in classics, who it appears, is a > traditional Presbyterian, with a trained researchers interest in exposing > self promoting ministers and their crackpot world views. Although the > article is very long, and the terminology obtuse at times, Christ Church, its > growth, development and leadership does get plenty of exposure. > Among many interesting statements, I found the following to be especially > germane to recent discussions. > "Perhaps the most common of these is that held by myriads of would-be Col. > Culpepers, men who believe that the ante-bellum American south was the > greatest, godliest, paradise in the history of the World, and the north was a > bastion of wickedness utterly subsumed to Unitarianism and proto-marxism, > etc. Slavery gets barely a mention and, when pressed, many of these dudes > defend the refusal of Christian masters to teach their slaves to read, to > give them freedom on voluntary acceptance of baptism, as was centuries-old > church practice.... > Yet, somehow, acceptance of a growing list of myths associated with the old > south and corresponding north, seems to be de rigeur in the movement, and > those evincing pro-Union views tend to receive harsh treatments not mollified > by facts. Add this to a wistful and delusional nostalgia for old-style > agrarianism (made the more pathetic when argued for on electronic mail > mailing lists!), and one finds many of these guys just laughable... those, > that is, who are not actually in power to make their vision perhaps come > true. Many of these guys are young, impressionable fellows who are > nonetheless likely quite harmless, but there are scarier advocates, > nonetheless. One especially unctious individual comes to mind, the Rev. J. > Steven Wilkins, currently a PCA pastor in Monroe, Louisiana. Holding an MA in > history, Wilkins is perhaps the leading revisionist neo-confederate and > Yankee-hater (these people turn 'Yankee' into a smear term meaning > 'Big-Brother unitarian and ignore the fact that millions of New Englanders > own the term as one of ethnic pride) in theonomic circles today. In addition > to being a promoter of the paedocommuionist heresy, he sponsors an annual > 'Confederate Heritage Conference' AT HIS CHURCH, where mostly true-believer > guests learn all about dem damnyankees, how great ante-bellum Mississippi was > (for massa), etc., all recorded for posterity on tape. On one of his 'History > of America' tapes, Wilkins actually claimed that, although we were going to > hear a different version of US history from him than we had heard from our > 'atheistic professors', we should accept his version of reality, since it > came from a Christian (hint to brethren from the State of Rhode Island and > Providence Plantations, pass on his 'Roger Williams' and "Rhode Island" tapes > unless you've a strong constitution and have not eaten recently). On one > 'Confederate Heritage' tape he notes the work of southern scholar Grady > McWhiney, 'Cracker Culture', which gives a detailed warts-and-all treatment > of ante-bellum Scotch-Irish southern frontiersmen. I read the book on this > notation from Wilkins; methinks he had not read it when he mentioned it, but > when I tried to call him on the less than idyllic portrayal of southern > history McWhiney offers (as opposed to Wilkins' halcyon one), Wilkins > initially denied mentioning the book but later blathered on something about > McWhiney getting it wrong, not appreciating the great role of 'Calvininsm' in > the ante-bellum south, etc. Now this would be a mere quirk of one fringe > pastor, were Wilkins not increasingly very successful at getting converts to > his new way of looking at reality. I know one young man who qualifies as such > hook, line, and sinker, and there is another such convert, who is in a much > greater position to let Wilkins make real trouble... Doug Wilson. Simply put, > Wilkins is Wilson's intellectual superior, and in recent years, the two men's > association has grown quite close, with all the signs pointing to a > wholesale, uncritical acceptance by Wilson, of Wilkinsism. Wilson is already > co-hosting Wilkinsite "American History" conferences in Moscow/elsewhere, > heavily promoted to his CA/Canon Press as well as his "Classical Christian > School" clienteles. Speaking as one Yankee who also cares about history and > reality, this does not, in my opinion, bode at all well for the future, both > in and out of the theonomy movement." > I would urge all interested persons to take a look at this website. If you > are not interested in reading all of it, scroll down about 1/2 through the > article and learn about the history, background and attraction between the > defense of slavery and Christ Church. By the way, Canon Press will be > releasing another of Steve Wilkin's noble Confederacy "books" in September. > > Enjoy the reading, > Rose Huskey > --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! --0-1797874357-1056413001=:93661 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii

FROM AUGUST 21, 2002

DonaldH675@aol.com wrote:

> Dear Visionaries,
> Just to clarify my understanding of Doug Wilson et al.'s understanding of the
> noble nature of keeping slaves I extended my research today.  The following
> web address deals with the issue of "theonomy' or 'christian
> reconstructionism', " which is, as nearly as I can tell, the operational
> nature of christian government, family management etc.  The article can be
> found at the website below.
> http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&ie=ISO-8859-1&q=theonomists+%2B+roche
>
> The article, written by Dr. Thomas P. Roche, appears in Religion and Politics
> Digest, an on-line Calvinistic-style journal.  Dr. Roche is an academically
> trained scholar, with a specialty in classics, who it appears, is a
> traditional Presbyterian, with a trained researchers interest in exposing
> self ! promoting ministers and their crackpot world views.  Although the
> article is very long, and the terminology obtuse at times, Christ Church, its
> growth, development and leadership does get plenty of exposure.
> Among many interesting statements, I found the following to be especially
> germane to recent discussions.
> "Perhaps the most common of these is that held by myriads of would-be Col.
> Culpepers, men who believe that the ante-bellum American south was the
> greatest, godliest, paradise in the history of the World, and the north was a
> bastion of wickedness utterly subsumed to Unitarianism and proto-marxism,
> etc. Slavery gets barely a mention and, when pressed, many of these dudes
> defend the refusal of Christian masters to teach their slaves to read, to
> give them freedom on voluntary acceptance of baptism, as was centuries-old
> church practice....
> Yet, somehow, acceptance ! of a growing list of myths associated with the old
> south and corresponding north, seems to be de rigeur in the movement, and
> those evincing pro-Union views tend to receive harsh treatments not mollified
> by facts. Add this to a wistful and delusional nostalgia for old-style
> agrarianism (made the more pathetic when argued for on electronic mail
> mailing lists!), and one finds many of these guys just laughable... those,
> that is, who are not actually in power to make their vision perhaps come
> true. Many of these guys are young, impressionable fellows who are
> nonetheless likely quite harmless, but there are scarier advocates,
> nonetheless. One especially unctious individual comes to mind, the Rev. J.
> Steven Wilkins, currently a PCA pas! tor in Monroe, Louisiana. Holding an MA in
> history, Wilkins is perhaps the leading revisionist neo-confederate and
> Yankee-hater (these people turn 'Yankee' into a smear term meaning
> 'Big-Brother unitarian and ignore the fact that millions of New Englanders
> own the term as one of ethnic pride) in theonomic circles today. In addition
> to being a promoter of the paedocommuionist heresy, he sponsors an annual
> 'Confederate Heritage Conference' AT HIS CHURCH, where mostly true-believer
> guests learn all about dem damnyankees, how great ante-bellum Mississippi was
> (for massa), etc., all recorded for posterity on tape. On one of his 'History
> of America' tapes, Wilkins actually claimed that, although we were going to
> hear a different version of US history from him than we had heard from our
! > 'atheistic professors', we should accept his version of reality, since it
> came from a Christian (hint to brethren from the State of Rhode Island and
> Providence Plantations, pass on his 'Roger Williams' and "Rhode Island" tapes
> unless you've a strong constitution and have not eaten recently). On one
> 'Confederate Heritage' tape he notes the work of southern scholar Grady
> McWhiney, 'Cracker Culture', which gives a detailed warts-and-all treatment
> of ante-bellum Scotch-Irish southern frontiersmen. I read the book on this
> notation from Wilkins; methinks he had not read it when he mentioned it, but
> when I tried to call him on the less than idyllic portrayal of southern
> history McWhiney offers (as opposed to Wilkins' halcyon one), Wilkins !
> initially denied mentioning the book but later blathered on something about
> McWhiney getting it wrong, not appreciating the great role of 'Calvininsm' in
> the ante-bellum south, etc. Now this would be a mere quirk of one fringe
> pastor, were Wilkins not increasingly very successful at getting converts to
> his new way of looking at reality. I know one young man who qualifies as such
> hook, line, and sinker, and there is another such convert, who is in a much
> greater position to let Wilkins make real trouble... Doug Wilson. Simply put,
> Wilkins is Wilson's intellectual superior, and in recent years, the two men's
> association has grown quite close, with all the signs pointing to a
> wholesale, uncritical acceptance by Wilson, of Wilkinsism. W! ilson is already
> co-hosting Wilkinsite "American History" conferences in Moscow/elsewhere,
> heavily promoted to his CA/Canon Press as well as his "Classical Christian
> School" clienteles. Speaking as one Yankee who also cares about history and
> reality, this does not, in my opinion, bode at all well for the future, both
> in and out of the theonomy movement."
> I would urge all interested persons to take a look at this website. If you
> are not interested in reading all of it, scroll down about 1/2 through the
> article and learn about the history, background and attraction between the
> defense of slavery and Christ Church.  By the way, Canon Press will be
> releasing another of Steve Wilkin's noble Confederacy "books" in September.  
>  
> Enjoy the reading,
> Rose Huskey
>

Do you Yahoo!?
SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! --0-1797874357-1056413001=:93661-- From credenda@moscow.com Mon Jun 23 22:05:38 2003 From: credenda@moscow.com (Doug Jones) Date: Mon, 23 Jun 2003 17:05:38 -0400 Subject: [Vision2020] listen good... In-Reply-To: <20030623233223.63138.qmail@web20501.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <009a01c339cb$32955e60$880aa8c0@credenda.org> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_009B_01C339A9.AB83BE60 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Douglas Stambler wrote: =20 i have spoken with nick gier, a former professor of Doug Wilson's: nick told me that doug wilson is essentially a perpetual liar=20 =20 =20 Nick Gier and Doug Stambler are strategizing together? I=92m sure = that=92s news to Nick. Philosophers never fall for that kind of stuff. =20 Doug Jones =20 ------=_NextPart_000_009B_01C339A9.AB83BE60 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Douglas Stambler wrote:

 

i have spoken with nick = gier, a former professor of Doug Wilson's: nick told me that doug = wilson is essentially a perpetual liar

 

 

Nick = Gier and Doug Stambler are strategizing together? I’m sure that’s = news to Nick. Philosophers never fall for that kind of = stuff.

 

Doug = Jones

 

------=_NextPart_000_009B_01C339A9.AB83BE60-- From stopchristchurch@yahoo.com Tue Jun 24 01:09:28 2003 From: stopchristchurch@yahoo.com (from Edmund Burke) Date: Mon, 23 Jun 2003 17:09:28 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Vision2020] Regarding The Evil That Is Doug Wilson - (quote from Burke) Message-ID: <20030624000928.58284.qmail@web20503.mail.yahoo.com> --0-328926882-1056413368=:57893 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii "The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing." -Edmund Burke. ********************************************************************************************* YOU HAVE LET DOUG WILSON PERPETUATE EVIL IN MOSCOW, AND NOW YOU REFUSE TO HELP CLEAN IT UP!! GET ON THE BALL, PEOPLE!! DOUG WILSON IS A THREAT TO DEMOCRACY; A THREAT TO CHILDREN; A THREAT TO CHRISTIANS; A THREAT TO HOMOSEXUALS; A THREAT TO AFRICAN-AMERICANS. ********************************************************************************************** "who cares if i'm a threat to common courtesy, when this man (Doug Wilson) is allowed to smile on the exterior and plot against this town (Moscow, Idaho) on the inside of his evil-self?" -douglas stambler --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! --0-328926882-1056413368=:57893 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing."
 
-Edmund Burke.
 
*********************************************************************************************
YOU HAVE LET DOUG WILSON PERPETUATE EVIL IN MOSCOW, AND NOW YOU REFUSE TO HELP CLEAN IT UP!!  GET ON THE BALL, PEOPLE!!  DOUG WILSON IS A THREAT TO DEMOCRACY; A THREAT TO CHILDREN; A THREAT TO CHRISTIANS; A THREAT TO HOMOSEXUALS; A THREAT TO AFRICAN-AMERICANS.
 
**********************************************************************************************
 
"who cares if i'm a threat to common courtesy, when this man (Doug Wilson) is allowed to smile on the exterior and plot against this town (Moscow, Idaho) on the inside of his evil-self?"
 
-douglas stambler

Do you Yahoo!?
SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! --0-328926882-1056413368=:57893-- From thansen@moscow.com Tue Jun 24 01:11:06 2003 From: thansen@moscow.com (Tom Hansen) Date: Mon, 23 Jun 2003 17:11:06 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] enough already In-Reply-To: <030f01c339e2$98901f40$12317883@DMCLAPTOP2> Message-ID: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000B_01C339AA.6ECC4450 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I definitely agree that Mr. Stambler should be removed from this listserve. He was "ignorable" earlier. But now that he mentions names, it has gone a bit past the ignoring stage. Also, I seriously doubt that FSR can be held liable for comments made on this listserve. If ISP's could be held liable for comments made on their listserve, could you even begin to imagine the potential law suits originating in chat rooms? If I were a "damaged" party from any of these comments by Mr. Stambler, I wouldn't bring action against FSR. Why?? I would seek legal counsel and pursue Mr. Stambler. It is just that simple. Take care, Tom Hansen -----Original Message----- From: vision2020-admin@moscow.com [mailto:vision2020-admin@moscow.com]On Behalf Of Dale Courtney Sent: Monday, June 23, 2003 4:53 PM To: vision2020@moscow.com Subject: Re: [Vision2020] enough already Visionaries, I wrote the Email below and was asked off-line if I was threatening a law-suite. No, I'm not threatening a lawsuit; That's not what I was trying to convey. However, FSR needs to be aware that it is hosting a website where libelous statements are being made and hosted (see: http://lists2.fsr.net/pipermail/vision2020/2003-June/002698.html). When people can find libelous material on the internet, the ISP is often libel for hosting it. That was my only point. Best, Dale Courtney ----- Original Message ----- From: Dale Courtney To: vision2020@moscow.com Sent: Monday, June 23, 2003 16:36 Subject: Re: [Vision2020] enough already At what point is FSR and perhaps Bill London and the other moderators liable for providing a forum for libelous and slanderous statements? The Daily News is libel for any Editorials that they print that are slanderous/liable. There have been legal findings that show that ISP's are libel for any slanderous/libel statements posted on their system. I'm going to mention this to the FSR bubbas. We may well find ourselves shut-down until this is resolved; otherwise, FSR may find themselves up to their ears in legal brouhaha. Best, Dale ------=_NextPart_000_000B_01C339AA.6ECC4450 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I = definitely=20 agree that Mr. Stambler should be removed from this listserve.  He = was=20 "ignorable" earlier.  But now that he mentions names, it has gone a = bit=20 past the ignoring stage.
 
Also, I seriously=20 doubt that FSR can be held liable for comments made on this = listserve.  If=20 ISP's could be held liable for comments made on their listserve, could = you even=20 begin to imagine the potential law suits originating in chat=20 rooms?
 
If = I were a=20 "damaged" party from any of these comments by Mr. Stambler, I wouldn't = bring=20 action against FSR.  Why??  I would seek legal counsel and = pursue Mr.=20 Stambler.
 
It = is just that=20 simple.
 
Take=20 care,
 
Tom = Hansen
-----Original Message-----
From: = vision2020-admin@moscow.com=20 [mailto:vision2020-admin@moscow.com]On Behalf Of Dale=20 Courtney
Sent: Monday, June 23, 2003 4:53 PM
To:=20 vision2020@moscow.com
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] enough=20 already

Visionaries,
 
I wrote the Email below and was asked = off-line if=20 I was threatening a law-suite.
 
No, I'm not threatening a lawsuit; That's not what = I was=20 trying to convey.
 
However, FSR needs to be aware that it is hosting = a website=20 where libelous statements are being made and hosted (see: http://lists2.fsr.net/pipermail/vision2020/2003-June/002698.html).=20
 
When people can find libelous material on the = internet, the=20 ISP is often libel for hosting it.
 
That was my only point.
 
Best,
Dale Courtney 
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Dale = Courtney=20
To: vision2020@moscow.com
Sent: Monday, June 23, 2003 = 16:36
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] = enough=20 already

At what point is FSR and perhaps Bill London and = the other=20 moderators liable for providing a forum for libelous and = slanderous=20 statements?
 
The Daily News is libel for any Editorials that = they print=20 that are slanderous/liable. There have been legal findings that show = that=20 ISP's are libel for any slanderous/libel statements posted on their = system.=20
 
I'm going to mention this to the FSR bubbas. We = may well=20 find ourselves shut-down until this is resolved; otherwise, FSR may = find=20 themselves up to their ears in legal brouhaha.
 
Best,
Dale
------=_NextPart_000_000B_01C339AA.6ECC4450-- From donovanarnold@hotmail.com Tue Jun 24 01:14:02 2003 From: donovanarnold@hotmail.com (Donovan Arnold) Date: Mon, 23 Jun 2003 17:14:02 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] enough already Message-ID:

Mr. Hayman,

I agree with you to the extent that slander and libel lie in the courts. I also agree with you on the issue of freedom of speech. However, when someone accuses someone else in the community of being a "pedophile" or an "adulterer" or "rapist" or being "criminal", this extends the lines of most community standards beyond acceptable reason. You also assume that people that visit this site are aware of Mr. Stambler's long string of idiotic and unfounded posts. I believe that when you accuse people of such things that cost them their job, and in some cases, spark vigilantism justice and someone's life. Everything has limits. If I were to tell your neighbors that you were a sexual predator, would that not impact your life? Would not the least of sane mother's take this accusation seriously? Their are some things you can say, like "I think you are a jerk" or "I think you are an idiot" or "I wouldn't doubt it if you slept with your mother." But claiming someone sexually pre! ys on juveniles, or is stealing money from you, or is cheating on you, are highly emotion issues that should not be toyed with, they can and do cost people's lives. I don't think Vision2020 should be used as a catalyst to spread financial and social ruin for individual members of the Moscow-Pullman community. I am strongly opposed to this. Stambler's accusation could result in someone getting hurting or even killing someone. This is no longer funny, it is sick and must be stopped before it goes to far and someone gets seriously hurt. If he was ever was correct about anything he said he would first present evidence then let people draw their own conclusion, not make accusations and then say he will produce evidence, and never does. This is McCarthyism, and it must stop NOW!

Donovan J Arnold 

>From: hayman@moscow.com
>To: "Donovan Arnold" , jack@wsu.edu, vision2020@moscow.com
>Subject: Re: [Vision2020] enough already
>Date: Mon, 23 Jun 2003 23:08:34 GMT
>
>Hello people,
>
>I agree with the public disdain of a certain individual's perceived lack of
>taste, morality, intelligence and perspective.
>
>However, like the TV, turn it off. The delete key works. He will not quit
>posting; he was never "cleared" of attempted account deletion as he
>promised, for example.
>
>By virtue of the web, this forum is global, not only local. Our lives and
>perspectives are made larger through discourse. Libel and slander lie
>within the realm of the courts. Do we really want to exclude submissions
>on the basis of paying or university accounts? So much for much intra-
>and intercommunication.
>
>As well, the attention lavished upon such a misguided (in postings)
>individual simply ontologizes his ranting, which amounts to an almost
>tacit acceptance of idiocy.
>
>In homage to the delete key, libel laws and free speech,
>
>Warren Hayman
>
> >
> >

I agree Jack!

> >

It is one thing to make a decent argument as to why you hold a

>certain opinion about
>someone or something. But Doug Stambler has gone WAY overboard
>with slanderous statements
>such as calling a member of this community an "adulterer". This is
>borderline libel. This
>forum is not to be used to harass and slander individual members of the
>community
>regardless of what they may or may not did or do. I suggest that we do the
>following:

> >

1) Ban Doug from the forum if he sends one more post slandering

>someone

> >
> >

2) Allow no new members to the group unless they have a paying or

>university
>account.

> >
> >

This allows people that already exist using free accounts not

>to have to
>re-subscribe and allows keeps Doug out.

> >
> >

Donovan J Arnold 

> >
> >
> >
>From: "Van Deventer, Jack"
> >
> >
>To:
> >
> >
>Subject: [Vision2020] enough already
> >
> >
>Date: Mon, 23 Jun 2003 13:43:43 -0700
> >
> >
>
> >
> >
>Dear V2020 participants,
> >
> >
>
> >
> >
>I've had enough of Douglas Stambler's verbal manure,
>especially with
> >
> >
>Vision 2020 his favorite spot to unload this filth.
> >
> >
>
> >
> >
>I would like to move that Douglas Stambler be
>dismissed from this list.
> >
> >
>
> >
> >
>Jack
> >
> >
>
> >
> >
>
> >
> >
>
> >
> >
>__________________________________
> >
> >
>
> >
> >
>Jack Van Deventer
> >
> >
>
> >
> >
>jack@wsu.edu
> >
> >
>
> >
> >
>-----Original Message-----
> >
> >
>From: Douglas Stambler
>[mailto:stopchristchurch@yahoo.com]
> >
> >
>Sent: Monday, June 23, 2003 12:25 PM
> >
> >
>To: vision2020@moscow.com
> >
> >
>Subject: [Vision2020] Is Doug Wilson An Adulterer? -
>thank you
> >
> >
>
> >
> >
>
> >
> >
>
> >
> >
>Is Doug Wilson An Adulterer? - thank you
> >
> >
>
> >
> >
> _____
> >
> >
>
> >
> >
>Do you Yahoo!?
> >
> >
>SBC Yahoo! DSL
> >
> >
>>/sbc/> - Now only $29.95 per month!
> >
> >
>
> >
> >
> >

MSN 8 helps >href="http://g.msn.com/8HMNENUS/2752??PS=">ELIMINATE E-MAIL
>VIRUSES. Get 2 months
>FREE*.
> >
> > _____________________________________________________
> > List services made available by First Step Internet,
> > serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
> > http://www.fsr.net
> > mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com
> > ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ
> >
>
>
>---------------------------------------------
>This message was sent by First Step Internet.
> http://www.fsr.net/
>
>

STOP MORE SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* From dale@courtneys.us Tue Jun 24 01:15:56 2003 From: dale@courtneys.us (Dale Courtney) Date: Mon, 23 Jun 2003 17:15:56 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] enough already References: Message-ID: <039b01c339e5$c91de720$12317883@DMCLAPTOP2> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0397_01C339AB.1BF6DD20 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Tom, You may want to review some recent court cases where ISPs (in both the = USA and UK) have been held liable.=20 a.. http://www.vnunet.com/Features/80998 b.. = http://abcnews.go.com/sections/tech/DailyNews/demon000331_segan.html I can provide more if you are interested.=20 I'm not saying that an ISP should be responsible for what is hosted on = their hardware. However, the courts are thinking that ISPs are more like = newspapers.=20 Best, Dale Courtney ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Tom Hansen=20 To: Dale Courtney ; vision2020@moscow.com=20 Sent: Monday, June 23, 2003 17:11 Subject: RE: [Vision2020] enough already I definitely agree that Mr. Stambler should be removed from this = listserve. He was "ignorable" earlier. But now that he mentions names, = it has gone a bit past the ignoring stage. Also, I seriously doubt that FSR can be held liable for comments made = on this listserve. If ISP's could be held liable for comments made on = their listserve, could you even begin to imagine the potential law suits = originating in chat rooms? If I were a "damaged" party from any of these comments by Mr. = Stambler, I wouldn't bring action against FSR. Why?? I would seek = legal counsel and pursue Mr. Stambler. It is just that simple. Take care, Tom Hansen ------=_NextPart_000_0397_01C339AB.1BF6DD20 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Tom,
 
You may want to review some recent court cases where = ISPs (in=20 both the USA and UK) have been held liable.
  • http://www.vnunet.com/Featu= res/80998
  • http://abcnews.go.com/sections/tech/DailyNews/demon000331_segan.html=
I can provide more if you are interested. =
 
I'm not saying that an ISP should be = responsible for=20 what is hosted on their hardware. However, the courts are thinking that = ISPs are=20 more like newspapers.
 
Best,
Dale Courtney
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Tom = Hansen=20
To: Dale Courtney ; vision2020@moscow.com
Sent: Monday, June 23, 2003 = 17:11
Subject: RE: [Vision2020] = enough=20 already

I = definitely=20 agree that Mr. Stambler should be removed from this listserve.  = He was=20 "ignorable" earlier.  But now that he mentions names, it has gone = a bit=20 past the ignoring stage.
 
Also, I=20 seriously doubt that FSR can be held liable for comments made on this=20 listserve.  If ISP's could be held liable for comments made on = their=20 listserve, could you even begin to imagine the potential law suits = originating=20 in chat rooms?
 
If I were a=20 "damaged" party from any of these comments by Mr. Stambler, I wouldn't = bring=20 action against FSR.  Why??  I would seek legal counsel and = pursue=20 Mr. Stambler.
 
It is just that=20 simple.
 
Take=20 care,
 
Tom=20 Hansen
------=_NextPart_000_0397_01C339AB.1BF6DD20-- From london@moscow.com Tue Jun 24 01:28:31 2003 From: london@moscow.com (Bill London) Date: Mon, 23 Jun 2003 17:28:31 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] the rantings Message-ID: <3EF79B2F.AC551BD3@moscow.com> Open letter to Doug Wilson: I want to apologize for the rantings you have endured as postings to the Vision 2020 list. I am truly sorry that your name and reputation is being attacked in this reprehensible manner. A number of V2020 members have suggested that the author of those messages be dropped from the V2020 list. While I certainly understand why they want to eliminate those postings, I disagree with that tactic. I am writing you to explain why, in hopes that you will agree that allowing such postings is not evidence of agreement or support by Vision 2020 or any of the list's subscribers. And I want to make it clear that I totally reject the vile and malicious nature of those messages. I just feel that the values of open discussion, free speech and an unmoderated list are paramount. Vision 2020 is ten years old. Throughout that decade, at least four or five times, the list was bombarded with some variety of potentially-libelous postings by some disgruntled person who saw the list as an opportunity to rant. In each case, the V2020 subscriber/members were polled with the question: should this list stop being an open vehicle for free speech and become a moderated discussion? Every time the answer has been "no--let's just use our delete keys." Plenty of related issues were discussed each time. Most dealt with the question of who would become the moderator, and what would be the criteria for elimination of a posting or a poster. Nobody wanted that responsibility. And I think legally, there is plenty of reason for everyone to reject that responsibility. My understanding is that any public communication system (Daily News, ISP list manager, etc) that manages the information in any way (allows some and not others, etc) can be held responsible for libelous material. However, if that system does not manage the information in any way (much like the soap box in Hyde Park), then there is no legal responsibility for the libelous material. I don't think that is just a legalese distinction. I think it is the essence of our right of free speech. I guess I just think that the V2020 subscribers are able to recognize the source of the rantings and reject them. While those posted accusations are certainly uncomfortable for you, I do not think anyone believes the source of those accusations. BL From london@moscow.com Tue Jun 24 01:47:05 2003 From: london@moscow.com (Bill London) Date: Mon, 23 Jun 2003 17:47:05 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] enough already References: <039b01c339e5$c91de720$12317883@DMCLAPTOP2> Message-ID: <3EF79F89.A343A8CE@moscow.com> --------------7D57BA8B72D9F496F8CA4BB7 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Regarding the court case both your citations referred to (Laurence Godfrey's suit against an ISP called Demon for not removing a posting he thought was defamatory): I really do not think this is relevant to a suit against V2020 or FSR. Primarily because the case was in England, which has very different libel laws and no free speech first amendment right. As the ABC news report notes: A case like Godfrey’s could never happen in the US, Balkin said. That’s because the Telecom Act of 1996 established a “safe harbor” for Internet providers where they are not responsible for the contents of their services. “The whole idea was to relieve the liability pressure on Internet service providers so they wouldn’t be squeezed into removing things from newsgroups,” as has happened in the Demon case, Balkin said. I still think the core issue is free speech. BL Dale Courtney wrote: > Tom, You may want to review some recent court cases where ISPs (in > both the USA and UK) have been held liable. > > * http://www.vnunet.com/Features/80998 > * http://abcnews.go.com/sections/tech/DailyNews/demon000331_segan.html > > I can provide more if you are interested. I'm not saying that an ISP > should be responsible for what is hosted on their hardware. However, > the courts are thinking that ISPs are more like newspapers. Best,Dale > Courtney > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Tom Hansen > To: Dale Courtney ; vision2020@moscow.com > Sent: Monday, June 23, 2003 17:11 > Subject: RE: [Vision2020] enough already > I definitely agree that Mr. Stambler should be removed from > this listserve. He was "ignorable" earlier. But now that > he mentions names, it has gone a bit past the ignoring > stage.Also, I seriously doubt that FSR can be held liable > for comments made on this listserve. If ISP's could be held > liable for comments made on their listserve, could you even > begin to imagine the potential law suits originating in chat > rooms?If I were a "damaged" party from any of these comments > by Mr. Stambler, I wouldn't bring action against FSR. > Why?? I would seek legal counsel and pursue Mr. Stambler.It > is just that simple.Take care,Tom Hansen > --------------7D57BA8B72D9F496F8CA4BB7 Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Regarding the court case both your citations referred to (Laurence Godfrey's suit against an ISP called Demon for not removing a posting he thought was defamatory):
I really do not think this is relevant to a suit against V2020 or FSR.  Primarily because the case was in England, which has very different libel laws and no free speech first amendment right.
As the ABC news report notes:
A case like Godfrey’s could never happen in the US, Balkin
                 said. That’s because the Telecom Act of 1996 established
                 a “safe harbor” for Internet providers where they are not
                 responsible for the contents of their services.
                      “The whole idea was to relieve the liability pressure on
                 Internet service providers so they wouldn’t be squeezed
                 into removing things from newsgroups,” as has happened in
                 the Demon case, Balkin said.
I still think the core issue is free speech.
BL

Dale Courtney wrote:

Tom, You may want to review some recent court cases where ISPs (in both the USA and UK) have been held liable. I can provide more if you are interested. I'm not saying that an ISP should be responsible for what is hosted on their hardware. However, the courts are thinking that ISPs are more like newspapers. Best,Dale Courtney
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Monday, June 23, 2003 17:11
Subject: RE: [Vision2020] enough already
 I definitely agree that Mr. Stambler should be removed from this listserve.  He was "ignorable" earlier.  But now that he mentions names, it has gone a bit past the ignoring stage.Also, I seriously doubt that FSR can be held liable for comments made on this listserve.  If ISP's could be held liable for comments made on their listserve, could you even begin to imagine the potential law suits originating in chat rooms?If I were a "damaged" party from any of these comments by Mr. Stambler, I wouldn't bring action against FSR.  Why??  I would seek legal counsel and pursue Mr. Stambler.It is just that simple.Take care,Tom Hansen
--------------7D57BA8B72D9F496F8CA4BB7-- From ted_moffett@hotmail.com Tue Jun 24 02:08:50 2003 From: ted_moffett@hotmail.com (Ted Moffett) Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2003 01:08:50 +0000 Subject: [Vision2020] enough... MSD Pay and Tenure Message-ID: Dale et. al. I think there are numerous issues that render legal action against First Step for V2020 content problematic. 1) All content is sent to private computer accounts when posted via a non-commercial discussion group, not presented in public like a newspaper on the newsstands, or even on a commercial web site making money off the content where the site is intended for view by any and all people with a huge audience. 2) The account holders voluntarily choose to receive the content, and can stop the content at any time. No one should be surprised by what may be posted on a free public discussion group where content is offered freely by individuals. 3) A person who goes to the V2020 archives on the web must go through numerous steps to read the content, that is presented with no pretension from First Step that they are providing pre-screened factual news or information. 4) V2020 is NOT moderated! I'm not sure why you mentioned Bill London as a "moderator." 5) If a web site can be sued and shut down for libel for content offered freely by individuals in a discussion format, Google would be shut down NOW, because Google hosts Usenet newsgroups, where you can find the most astonishing lies and profanity about any and all subjects and persons, along with mostly sincere and honest offerings, posted freely by individuals on Usenet. Vision2020 is similar to a Usenet newsgroup in some respects I have been slammed on Usenet newsgroups before, and I got all steamed up over it, till I found out that the individual doing it had been at his evil task for a long time, targeting numerous other Usenet users. I just ignored him after that, knowing that those following the newsgroup knew he was a crank. This is the best approach, as Janesta Sullivan indicated on vision2020 today. The solution might be to have a moderator for V2020, like many Usenet newsgroups. I am not sure if this idea is possible. BTW, I carefully read your analysis of MSD teacher pay, promotion process, tenure award, etc. I agree that it appears from what you presented that public school teachers should not be offered tenure so quickly, and pay raises should be more tied to performance. But I do not agree that the problems with public education prove that more money could not help public education. More money spent in the right way might help improve public schools. Just because some of the money in public education is not spent wisely does not prove that any future increases in spending are certainly to be wasted. Ted >From: "Dale Courtney" >To: >Subject: Re: [Vision2020] enough already >Date: Mon, 23 Jun 2003 16:53:06 -0700 > >Visionaries, > >I wrote the Email below and was asked off-line if I was threatening a >law-suite. > >No, I'm not threatening a lawsuit; That's not what I was trying to convey. > >However, FSR needs to be aware that it is hosting a website where libelous >statements are being made and hosted (see: >http://lists2.fsr.net/pipermail/vision2020/2003-June/002698.html). > >When people can find libelous material on the internet, the ISP is often >libel for hosting it. > >That was my only point. > >Best, >Dale Courtney > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Dale Courtney > To: vision2020@moscow.com > Sent: Monday, June 23, 2003 16:36 > Subject: Re: [Vision2020] enough already > > > At what point is FSR and perhaps Bill London and the other moderators >liable for providing a forum for libelous and slanderous statements? > > The Daily News is libel for any Editorials that they print that are >slanderous/liable. There have been legal findings that show that ISP's are >libel for any slanderous/libel statements posted on their system. > > I'm going to mention this to the FSR bubbas. We may well find ourselves >shut-down until this is resolved; otherwise, FSR may find themselves up to >their ears in legal brouhaha. > > Best, > Dale _________________________________________________________________ MSN 8 helps eliminate e-mail viruses. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus From ddjames@moscow.com Tue Jun 24 02:54:52 2003 From: ddjames@moscow.com (Deacon James) Date: Mon, 23 Jun 2003 18:54:52 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] enough... References: Message-ID: <000b01c339f3$9b205750$63f2f5c7@gladiator> Dear all, The sentiment expressed today made it clear that Douglas Stambler, by way of his ridiculous emails, has endeared himself to no one. I think that much is obvious. But I believe another thing that can be taken from the conversation today. There is another way to shut Mr. Stambler up (though I admit that by sending out this email it will be harder). Ignore him. The man is a certifiable lunatic who loves an audience, whether or not they like him; he seeks a venue, any venue, and once he knows people are listening, will babble on and on, enjoying the fact that people hear him. Notice that there was much discussion about the man today on Vision 20/20. Notice also that he was very active on the listserve today. This, I believe, is no coincidence. He knew he was on everybody's minds, and that is just what he loves. So I think the best course of action is to just delete his banter, without making any comment about it. By doing so, the man will almost certainly slither off to find another town full of people who will get themselves in a tizzy over his ramblings. Cheers, Deacon From gussie443@hotmail.com Tue Jun 24 04:00:49 2003 From: gussie443@hotmail.com (Ellen Roskovich) Date: Mon, 23 Jun 2003 20:00:49 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] enough already Message-ID:

I do not understand why D.S. is still around making crazy posts to vision2020.  Some of us have been subscribers long enough to remember back 5 years or so when FSR pulled the plug on a woman at the UI and purged the archives of all her posts.  It has been done in the past.....why can't it happen again?  Of course then it involved a local lawyer, law enforcement, the courts, etc. With that line-up I'm sure that when someone whispered "lawsuit" FSR sat up and took notice. 

E.A. Roskovich, Moscow, ID



 

>From: Bill London
>Reply-To: london@moscow.com
>To: Dale Courtney
>CC: vision2020@moscow.com, bill moore
>Subject: Re: [Vision2020] enough already
>Date: Mon, 23 Jun 2003 17:47:05 -0700
>
>Regarding the court case both your citations referred to (Laurence
>Godfrey's suit against an ISP called Demon for not removing a posting he
>thought was defamatory):
>I really do not think this is relevant to a suit against V2020 or FSR.
>Primarily because the case was in England, which has very different
>libel laws and no free speech first amendment right.
>As the ABC news report notes:
>A case like Godfrey’s could never happen in the US, Balkin
> said. That’s because the Telecom Act of 1996
>established
> a “safe harbor” for Internet providers where they are
>not
> responsible for the contents of their services.
> “The whole idea was to relieve the liability
>pressure on
> Internet service providers so they wouldn’t be squeezed
>
> into removing things from newsgroups,” as has happened
>in
> the Demon case, Balkin said.
>I still think the core issue is free speech.
>BL
>
>Dale Courtney wrote:
>
> > Tom, You may want to review some recent court cases where ISPs (in
> > both the USA and UK) have been held liable.
> >
> > * http://www.vnunet.com/Features/80998
> > * http://abcnews.go.com/sections/tech/DailyNews/demon000331_segan.html
> >
> > I can provide more if you are interested. I'm not saying that an ISP
> > should be responsible for what is hosted on their hardware. However,
> > the courts are thinking that ISPs are more like newspapers. Best,Dale
> > Courtney
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: Tom Hansen
> > To: Dale Courtney ; vision2020@moscow.com
> > Sent: Monday, June 23, 2003 17:11
> > Subject: RE: [Vision2020] enough already
> > I definitely agree that Mr. Stambler should be removed from
> > this listserve. He was "ignorable" earlier. But now that
> > he mentions names, it has gone a bit past the ignoring
> > stage.Also, I seriously doubt that FSR can be held liable
> > for comments made on this listserve. If ISP's could be held
> > liable for comments made on their listserve, could you even
> > begin to imagine the potential law suits originating in chat
> > rooms?If I were a "damaged" party from any of these comments
> > by Mr. Stambler, I wouldn't bring action against FSR.
> > Why?? I would seek legal counsel and pursue Mr. Stambler.It
> > is just that simple.Take care,Tom Hansen
> >

MSN 8 helps ELIMINATE E-MAIL VIRUSES. Get 2 months FREE*. From gussie443@hotmail.com Tue Jun 24 04:16:28 2003 From: gussie443@hotmail.com (Ellen Roskovich) Date: Mon, 23 Jun 2003 20:16:28 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] the rantings Message-ID:

Dear Mr. Wilson:

You should not have to put up with this.  Your family should not be made to suffer.  First Step Research CAN and HAS pulled the plug in the past.  Those new to the list don't realize this because everything was purged from the archives.  Let's not make a mockery of free speech.....this is TRASH.

E.A. Roskovich, Moscow, ID

>From: Bill London
>Reply-To: london@moscow.com
>To: Douglas , Vision2020
>Subject: [Vision2020] the rantings
>Date: Mon, 23 Jun 2003 17:28:31 -0700
>
>Open letter to Doug Wilson:
>
>I want to apologize for the rantings you have endured as postings to the
>Vision 2020 list. I am truly sorry that your name and reputation is
>being attacked in this reprehensible manner.
>
>A number of V2020 members have suggested that the author of those
>messages be dropped from the V2020 list. While I certainly understand
>why they want to eliminate those postings, I disagree with that tactic.
>
>I am writing you to explain why, in hopes that you will agree that
>allowing such postings is not evidence of agreement or support by Vision
>2020 or any of the list's subscribers. And I want to make it clear that
>I totally reject the vile and malicious nature of those messages. I
>just feel that the values of open discussion, free speech and an
>unmoderated list are paramount.
>
>Vision 2020 is ten years old. Throughout that decade, at least four or
>five times, the list was bombarded with some variety of
>potentially-libelous postings by some disgruntled person who saw the
>list as an opportunity to rant. In each case, the V2020
>subscriber/members were polled with the question: should this list stop
>being an open vehicle for free speech and become a moderated
>discussion? Every time the answer has been "no--let's just use our
>delete keys."
>
>Plenty of related issues were discussed each time. Most dealt with the
>question of who would become the moderator, and what would be the
>criteria for elimination of a posting or a poster. Nobody wanted that
>responsibility.
>
>And I think legally, there is plenty of reason for everyone to reject
>that responsibility. My understanding is that any public communication
>system (Daily News, ISP list manager, etc) that manages the information
>in any way (allows some and not others, etc) can be held responsible for
>libelous material. However, if that system does not manage the
>information in any way (much like the soap box in Hyde Park), then there
>is no legal responsibility for the libelous material.
>I don't think that is just a legalese distinction. I think it is the
>essence of our right of free speech.
>
>I guess I just think that the V2020 subscribers are able to recognize
>the source of the rantings and reject them. While those posted
>accusations are certainly uncomfortable for you, I do not think anyone
>believes the source of those accusations.
>
>BL
>
>_____________________________________________________
> List services made available by First Step Internet,
> serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
> http://www.fsr.net
> mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com
>ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ

MSN 8 with e-mail virus protection service: 2 months FREE* From lukenieuwsma@softhome.net Tue Jun 24 04:25:22 2003 From: lukenieuwsma@softhome.net (Luke) Date: Mon, 23 Jun 2003 20:25:22 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] enough... References: <000b01c339f3$9b205750$63f2f5c7@gladiator> Message-ID: <084801c33a00$4ad15670$2f00a8c0@MOBILELUKE> Dear Visionaries: I heartily concur with Deacon. The way to stop the slander spray is to act like it is not going on. If we remove a writer from the system this time, it will be more likely that it will be done again, and perhaps at a time less appropriate. Considering the massive amount of debating we go through, it isn't likely that we could all agree on a set standard. Sincerely, Luke Nieuwsma ----- Original Message ----- From: "Deacon James" To: Sent: Monday, June 23, 2003 6:54 PM Subject: Re: [Vision2020] enough... > Dear all, > > The sentiment expressed today made it clear that Douglas Stambler, by way of > his ridiculous emails, has endeared himself to no one. I think that much is > obvious. But I believe another thing that can be taken from the conversation > today. There is another way to shut Mr. Stambler up (though I admit that by > sending out this email it will be harder). Ignore him. The man is a > certifiable lunatic who loves an audience, whether or not they like him; he > seeks a venue, any venue, and once he knows people are listening, will > babble on and on, enjoying the fact that people hear him. Notice that there > was much discussion about the man today on Vision 20/20. Notice also that he > was very active on the listserve today. This, I believe, is no coincidence. > He knew he was on everybody's minds, and that is just what he loves. So I > think the best course of action is to just delete his banter, without making > any comment about it. By doing so, the man will almost certainly slither off > to find another town full of people who will get themselves in a tizzy over > his ramblings. > > Cheers, > Deacon > > _____________________________________________________ > List services made available by First Step Internet, > serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994. > http://www.fsr.net > mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com > ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ > From Cjsnightclub@aol.com Tue Jun 24 04:28:49 2003 From: Cjsnightclub@aol.com (Cjsnightclub@aol.com) Date: Mon, 23 Jun 2003 23:28:49 EDT Subject: [Vision2020] Is it a right....... Message-ID: <1d5.c57733e.2c291f71@aol.com> --part1_1d5.c57733e.2c291f71_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Is it a right.........??? Or a privilege to post on V2020??? Phil Roderick --part1_1d5.c57733e.2c291f71_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Is it a right.........??? Or a privilege to post on V2= 020???

Phil Roderick --part1_1d5.c57733e.2c291f71_boundary-- From gussie443@hotmail.com Tue Jun 24 04:40:20 2003 From: gussie443@hotmail.com (Ellen Roskovich) Date: Mon, 23 Jun 2003 20:40:20 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] enough... Message-ID:

Vision2020 Subscribers:  According to the dictionary, "PRECEDENT, an act or instance that may be used  as an example in dealing with subsequent similar instances." 

It has already been done 5 years ago....... FSR can do it again.....PULL THE PLUG!

Ellen Roskovich, Moscow, ID

>From: "Luke"
>To: "Deacon James" , vision2020@moscow.com
>Subject: Re: [Vision2020] enough...
>Date: Mon, 23 Jun 2003 20:25:22 -0700
>
>Dear Visionaries:
> I heartily concur with Deacon. The way to stop the slander spray is to
>act like it is not going on. If we remove a writer from the system this
>time, it will be more likely that it will be done again, and perhaps at a
>time less appropriate. Considering the massive amount of debating we go
>through, it isn't likely that we could all agree on a set standard.
> Sincerely,
>Luke Nieuwsma
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Deacon James"
>To:
>Sent: Monday, June 23, 2003 6:54 PM
>Subject: Re: [Vision2020] enough...
>
>
> > Dear all,
> >
> > The sentiment expressed today made it clear that Douglas Stambler, by way
>of
> > his ridiculous emails, has endeared himself to no one. I think that much
>is
> > obvious. But I believe another thing that can be taken from the
>conversation
> > today. There is another way to shut Mr. Stambler up (though I admit that
>by
> > sending out this email it will be harder). Ignore him. The man is a
> > certifiable lunatic who loves an audience, whether or not they like him;
>he
> > seeks a venue, any venue, and once he knows people are listening, will
> > babble on and on, enjoying the fact that people hear him. Notice that
>there
> > was much discussion about the man today on Vision 20/20. Notice also that
>he
> > was very active on the listserve today. This, I believe, is no
>coincidence.
> > He knew he was on everybody's minds, and that is just what he loves. So I
> > think the best course of action is to just delete his banter, without
>making
> > any comment about it. By doing so, the man will almost certainly slither
>off
> > to find another town full of people who will get themselves in a tizzy
>over
> > his ramblings.
> >
> > Cheers,
> > Deacon
> >
> > _____________________________________________________
> > List services made available by First Step Internet,
> > serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
> > http://www.fsr.net
> > mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com
> > ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ
> >
>
>
>_____________________________________________________
> List services made available by First Step Internet,
> serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
> http://www.fsr.net
> mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com
>ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ

STOP MORE SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* From thansen@moscow.com Tue Jun 24 04:43:20 2003 From: thansen@moscow.com (Tom Hansen) Date: Mon, 23 Jun 2003 20:43:20 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] enough... In-Reply-To: <084801c33a00$4ad15670$2f00a8c0@MOBILELUKE> Message-ID: As much as I hate to allow Mr. Stambler's ramblings, I think that it is something we all must endure. However, if I were Doug Wilson, I might consider printing copies of Mr. Stambler's e-mails and pay a visit to the Logos School legal representative. Hopefully that would clean the stench out of the air. Take care, Tom Hansen Moscow, Idaho > -----Original Message----- > From: vision2020-admin@moscow.com [mailto:vision2020-admin@moscow.com]On > Behalf Of Luke > Sent: Monday, June 23, 2003 8:25 PM > To: Deacon James; vision2020@moscow.com > Subject: Re: [Vision2020] enough... > > > Dear Visionaries: > I heartily concur with Deacon. The way to stop the slander spray is to > act like it is not going on. If we remove a writer from the system this > time, it will be more likely that it will be done again, and perhaps at a > time less appropriate. Considering the massive amount of debating we go > through, it isn't likely that we could all agree on a set standard. > Sincerely, > Luke Nieuwsma > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Deacon James" > To: > Sent: Monday, June 23, 2003 6:54 PM > Subject: Re: [Vision2020] enough... > > > > Dear all, > > > > The sentiment expressed today made it clear that Douglas > Stambler, by way > of > > his ridiculous emails, has endeared himself to no one. I think that much > is > > obvious. But I believe another thing that can be taken from the > conversation > > today. There is another way to shut Mr. Stambler up (though I admit that > by > > sending out this email it will be harder). Ignore him. The man is a > > certifiable lunatic who loves an audience, whether or not they like him; > he > > seeks a venue, any venue, and once he knows people are listening, will > > babble on and on, enjoying the fact that people hear him. Notice that > there > > was much discussion about the man today on Vision 20/20. Notice > also that > he > > was very active on the listserve today. This, I believe, is no > coincidence. > > He knew he was on everybody's minds, and that is just what he > loves. So I > > think the best course of action is to just delete his banter, without > making > > any comment about it. By doing so, the man will almost certainly slither > off > > to find another town full of people who will get themselves in a tizzy > over > > his ramblings. > > > > Cheers, > > Deacon > > > > _____________________________________________________ > > List services made available by First Step Internet, > > serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994. > > http://www.fsr.net > > mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com > > ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ > > > > > _____________________________________________________ > List services made available by First Step Internet, > serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994. > http://www.fsr.net > mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com > ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ > From gussie443@hotmail.com Tue Jun 24 04:46:27 2003 From: gussie443@hotmail.com (Ellen Roskovich) Date: Mon, 23 Jun 2003 20:46:27 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] Is it a right....... Message-ID:

Phil:  In my opinion it will be a cold day in hell when someone has the "right" to spew venemous gossip in ANY public forum.

FSR:  PULL THE PLUG!  Last time you had to be threatened with a lawsuit......this time JUST DO IT BECAUSE IT'S THE RIGHT THING TO DO.

Ellen Roskovich, Moscow, ID

>From: Cjsnightclub@aol.com
>To: vision2020@moscow.com
>Subject: [Vision2020] Is it a right.......
>Date: Mon, 23 Jun 2003 23:28:49 EDT
>
>Is it a right.........??? Or a privilege to post on V2020???
>
>Phil Roderick

Protect your PC - Click here for McAfee.com VirusScan Online From gussie443@hotmail.com Tue Jun 24 04:55:30 2003 From: gussie443@hotmail.com (Ellen Roskovich) Date: Mon, 23 Jun 2003 20:55:30 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] Is it a right....... Message-ID:

So, when you're threatened with a lawsuit it suddenly becomes "Right"?

Ellen Roskovich, Moscow, ID

>From: "Tom Hansen"
>Reply-To:
>To: "Ellen Roskovich" , ,
>Subject: RE: [Vision2020] Is it a right.......
>Date: Mon, 23 Jun 2003 20:52:52 -0700
>
>As much as I hate virtually everything Stambler represents, "pulling the
>plug" would not be the right thing to do.
>
>Tom Hansen
> -----Original Message-----
> From: vision2020-admin@moscow.com [mailto:vision2020-admin@moscow.com]On
>Behalf Of Ellen Roskovich
> Sent: Monday, June 23, 2003 8:46 PM
> To: Cjsnightclub@aol.com; vision2020@moscow.com
> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Is it a right.......
>
>
> Phil: In my opinion it will be a cold day in hell when someone has the
>"right" to spew venemous gossip in ANY public forum.
>
> FSR: PULL THE PLUG! Last time you had to be threatened with a
>lawsuit......this time JUST DO IT BECAUSE IT'S THE RIGHT THING TO DO.
>
> Ellen Roskovich, Moscow, ID
>
>
>
> >From: Cjsnightclub@aol.com
> >To: vision2020@moscow.com
> >Subject: [Vision2020] Is it a right.......
> >Date: Mon, 23 Jun 2003 23:28:49 EDT
> >
> >Is it a right.........??? Or a privilege to post on V2020???
> >
> >Phil Roderick
>
>
>----------------------------------------------------------------------------
>--
> Protect your PC - Click here for McAfee.com VirusScan Online
>_____________________________________________________ List services made
>available by First Step Internet, serving the communities of the Palouse
>since 1994. http://www.fsr.net mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com
>ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ

Tired of spam? Get advanced junk mail protection with MSN 8. From thansen@moscow.com Tue Jun 24 04:52:52 2003 From: thansen@moscow.com (Tom Hansen) Date: Mon, 23 Jun 2003 20:52:52 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] Is it a right....... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000D_01C339C9.6A055550 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit As much as I hate virtually everything Stambler represents, "pulling the plug" would not be the right thing to do. Tom Hansen -----Original Message----- From: vision2020-admin@moscow.com [mailto:vision2020-admin@moscow.com]On Behalf Of Ellen Roskovich Sent: Monday, June 23, 2003 8:46 PM To: Cjsnightclub@aol.com; vision2020@moscow.com Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Is it a right....... Phil: In my opinion it will be a cold day in hell when someone has the "right" to spew venemous gossip in ANY public forum. FSR: PULL THE PLUG! Last time you had to be threatened with a lawsuit......this time JUST DO IT BECAUSE IT'S THE RIGHT THING TO DO. Ellen Roskovich, Moscow, ID >From: Cjsnightclub@aol.com >To: vision2020@moscow.com >Subject: [Vision2020] Is it a right....... >Date: Mon, 23 Jun 2003 23:28:49 EDT > >Is it a right.........??? Or a privilege to post on V2020??? > >Phil Roderick ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- Protect your PC - Click here for McAfee.com VirusScan Online _____________________________________________________ List services made available by First Step Internet, serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994. http://www.fsr.net mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ ------=_NextPart_000_000D_01C339C9.6A055550 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
As = much as I hate=20 virtually everything Stambler represents, "pulling the plug" would not = be the=20 right thing to do.
 
Tom = Hansen
-----Original Message-----
From: = vision2020-admin@moscow.com=20 [mailto:vision2020-admin@moscow.com]On Behalf Of Ellen=20 Roskovich
Sent: Monday, June 23, 2003 8:46 PM
To:=20 Cjsnightclub@aol.com; vision2020@moscow.com
Subject: Re:=20 [Vision2020] Is it a right.......

Phil:  In my opinion it = will be a=20 cold day in hell when someone has the "right" to spew venemous gossip = in ANY=20 public forum.

FSR:  PULL THE = PLUG!  Last=20 time you had to be threatened with a lawsuit......this time JUST DO IT = BECAUSE=20 IT'S THE RIGHT THING TO DO.

Ellen Roskovich, Moscow,=20 ID

>From: Cjsnightclub@aol.com=20
>To: vision2020@moscow.com=20
>Subject: [Vision2020] Is it a right.......=20
>Date: Mon, 23 Jun 2003 23:28:49 EDT=20
>=20
>Is it a right.........??? Or a privilege to post on = V2020???=20
>=20
>Phil Roderick=20

Protect your PC - Click here=20 for McAfee.com VirusScan Online=20 _____________________________________________________ List services = made=20 available by First Step Internet, serving the communities of the = Palouse since=20 1994. http://www.fsr.net mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com=20 = =AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF= =AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF= =AF=AF=AF=20 ------=_NextPart_000_000D_01C339C9.6A055550-- From Cjsnightclub@aol.com Tue Jun 24 05:02:04 2003 From: Cjsnightclub@aol.com (Cjsnightclub@aol.com) Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2003 00:02:04 EDT Subject: [Vision2020] Is it a right....... Message-ID: <27.4307de05.2c29273c@aol.com> --part1_27.4307de05.2c29273c_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I'm not sure that you understood my question. The Constitution gives us the right to free speech in certain forums. Driving a car is not s right. It is a privilege. Posting on this forum, I am not sure is a right. I think it is a privilege. We need an attorney to pipe up and tell us. Phil --part1_27.4307de05.2c29273c_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I'm not sure that you understood my question. The Cons= titution gives us the right to free speech in certain forums. Driving a car=20= is not s right. It is a privilege. Posting on this forum, I am not sure is a= right. I think it is a privilege. We need an attorney to pipe up and tell u= s.

Phil --part1_27.4307de05.2c29273c_boundary-- From jack@wsu.edu Tue Jun 24 05:50:02 2003 From: jack@wsu.edu (Van Deventer, Jack) Date: Mon, 23 Jun 2003 21:50:02 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] free flowing sewage Message-ID: <98444CB31FE6BD4F969495E78B94DDB329C711@mail.cbe.wsu.edu> Bill London says, "I am truly sorry that your name and reputation is being attacked in this reprehensible manner" but (paraphrasing) in the interests of openness I'm going allow the libel to continue. Ain't free speech grand? Bill, what's going on? Aren't you one of the steering committee members of this list? Are you the spokesman? Who are the others? No one seems to be able or willing to answer these questions. Why does any member of our community have to endure sewage like this? Is it because his name is Douglas Wilson? Or, are all the members potential targets because no one on the steering committee has the courage to enforce any standards of decency? Jack __________________________________ Jack Van Deventer jack@wsu.edu -----Original Message----- From: Bill London [mailto:london@moscow.com] Sent: Monday, June 23, 2003 4:29 PM To: Douglas; Vision2020 Subject: [Vision2020] the rantings Open letter to Doug Wilson: I want to apologize for the rantings you have endured as postings to the Vision 2020 list. I am truly sorry that your name and reputation is being attacked in this reprehensible manner. A number of V2020 members have suggested that the author of those messages be dropped from the V2020 list. While I certainly understand why they want to eliminate those postings, I disagree with that tactic. I am writing you to explain why, in hopes that you will agree that allowing such postings is not evidence of agreement or support by Vision 2020 or any of the list's subscribers. And I want to make it clear that I totally reject the vile and malicious nature of those messages. I just feel that the values of open discussion, free speech and an unmoderated list are paramount. Vision 2020 is ten years old. Throughout that decade, at least four or five times, the list was bombarded with some variety of potentially-libelous postings by some disgruntled person who saw the list as an opportunity to rant. In each case, the V2020 subscriber/members were polled with the question: should this list stop being an open vehicle for free speech and become a moderated discussion? Every time the answer has been "no--let's just use our delete keys." Plenty of related issues were discussed each time. Most dealt with the question of who would become the moderator, and what would be the criteria for elimination of a posting or a poster. Nobody wanted that responsibility. And I think legally, there is plenty of reason for everyone to reject that responsibility. My understanding is that any public communication system (Daily News, ISP list manager, etc) that manages the information in any way (allows some and not others, etc) can be held responsible for libelous material. However, if that system does not manage the information in any way (much like the soap box in Hyde Park), then there is no legal responsibility for the libelous material. I don't think that is just a legalese distinction. I think it is the essence of our right of free speech. I guess I just think that the V2020 subscribers are able to recognize the source of the rantings and reject them. While those posted accusations are certainly uncomfortable for you, I do not think anyone believes the source of those accusations. BL _____________________________________________________ List services made available by First Step Internet, serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994. http://www.fsr.net mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ From ted_moffett@hotmail.com Tue Jun 24 06:05:18 2003 From: ted_moffett@hotmail.com (Ted Moffett) Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2003 05:05:18 +0000 Subject: [Vision2020] Usenet USA Libel Suit? Message-ID: Dale et. al. The case you reference regarding libel for a Usenet post is from England which oddly does not provide the same legal protections for free speech as our First Amendment does here in the USA. Please do provide a court case within the USA where libel in a Usenet forum has been successfully pursued. I have seen very abusive content on Usenet newsgroups yet have yet to hear of a successful libel suit. Ted >From: "Dale Courtney" >To: >Subject: Re: [Vision2020] enough already >Date: Mon, 23 Jun 2003 17:15:56 -0700 > >Tom, > >You may want to review some recent court cases where ISPs (in both the USA >and UK) have been held liable. > a.. http://www.vnunet.com/Features/80998 > b.. http://abcnews.go.com/sections/tech/DailyNews/demon000331_segan.html >I can provide more if you are interested. > >I'm not saying that an ISP should be responsible for what is hosted on >their hardware. However, the courts are thinking that ISPs are more like >newspapers. > >Best, >Dale Courtney > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Tom Hansen > To: Dale Courtney ; vision2020@moscow.com > Sent: Monday, June 23, 2003 17:11 > Subject: RE: [Vision2020] enough already > > > I definitely agree that Mr. Stambler should be removed from this >listserve. He was "ignorable" earlier. But now that he mentions names, it >has gone a bit past the ignoring stage. > > Also, I seriously doubt that FSR can be held liable for comments made on >this listserve. If ISP's could be held liable for comments made on their >listserve, could you even begin to imagine the potential law suits >originating in chat rooms? > > If I were a "damaged" party from any of these comments by Mr. Stambler, >I wouldn't bring action against FSR. Why?? I would seek legal counsel and >pursue Mr. Stambler. > > It is just that simple. > > Take care, > > Tom Hansen _________________________________________________________________ The new MSN 8: advanced junk mail protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From johnbharrell@yahoo.com Tue Jun 24 06:43:16 2003 From: johnbharrell@yahoo.com (John Harrell) Date: Mon, 23 Jun 2003 22:43:16 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Vision2020] Little Dougie Stambler runs off at the brain yet again... In-Reply-To: <50133014-A5CD-11D7-A442-000393B120B6@turbonet.com> Message-ID: <20030624054316.90386.qmail@web13404.mail.yahoo.com> Doug Stambler, It is time for you to leave. Not just vision2020, but Moscow. Not just Moscow, but Idaho, and that includes anywhere near the Palouse. Pullman is also too close. We have grown weary of you. You need to go away. No one in Moscow likes you anymore. If seen on the streets we all smirk at you. Go get pastoral therapy somewhere; far, far away from here! Bye! And dont let the door hit your butt on the way out. John Harrell --- Don Kaag wrote: > Visionaries: > > I am reluctant to waste your time with this, but here he goes again. > > Yes, ban him. > > Don Kaag > > > > IS IT LIBEL TO TELL THE TRUTH?  I HAVE BEEN ASKED BY A WELL-RESPECTED > COMMUNITY MEMBER TO PROVIDE INFORMATION ABOUT DOUG WILSON AND CHRIST > CHURCH FOR AN UPCOMING CLASS ACTION LAWSUIT AGAINST THE CHURCH. >   > I WILL NOT BE LIED ABOUT WITHOUT DEFENDING MYSELF WITH THE TRUTH, YOU > CAN COUNT ON THAT. >   > AS FOR YOUR ATTEMPT TO SCARE ME WITH VIOLENCE, GO PEEL AN EGG. >   > YOU'RE A HOSER. >   > IN CHRIST, > DOUGLAS STAMBLER > > Don Kaag wrote: > > All right Mr. Stambler, I generally ignore you, but your silly games > are beginning to get on my nerves. It has been obvious for a long time > that your elevator doesn't go all the way to the top of whatever > edifice you delusionally think you are building, but direct slander is > way over the line of polite discourse on this or any other forum. > > I am not a member of Christ Church, but I have friends who are. Doug > Wilson, when we have run across each other here in Moscow or at either > of the two universities, has been personable and polite. He has a > well-developed sense of humor, which generally endears someone to me. > I have met his wife and daughter, and they are lovely women. Where > does your weasely tiny mind get off posting such scurrilous garbage > about him, and by extension, his family and his marriage? > > If you had posted your latest about me, someone of our mutual > acquaintance would be contacting you to set up a satisfactory place to > meet so that I could teach you some manners. Given your past > performances, I suspect that is the only way you are ever going to > learn any. > > Go away. Stop antagonizing people. No one likes you, or your juvenile > postings. Get a life. Get out of town. Get lost. Go bother someone > else. Grow up. Get therapy. Start a third party campaign for > president. Just quit being such a painfully inept, whiny, twit on > Vision2020. > > Don Kaag > > > On Monday, June 23, 2003, at 01:24 PM, Douglas Stambler wrote: > > > Is Doug Wilson An Adulterer? - thank you > __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! http://sbc.yahoo.com From ltrwritr@moscow.com Tue Jun 24 08:06:27 2003 From: ltrwritr@moscow.com (Mark Rounds) Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2003 00:06:27 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Vision2020] Is it a right....... Message-ID: <200306240706.h5O76PQW080503@whale2.fsr.net> Folks I concur with Tom. In my humble opinion, Mr. Stambler is involved in character assassination and that is wrong. He has threatened me with lawsuits and my friends with worse, but we are not Judge and Jury. I would suggest in the strongest possible terms that Doug Wilson pursue legal options as it is in the courts that one can get a court orders to cover such things. Perhaps in the bargaining that occurs during such proceedings, Mr. Stambler can be persuaded to get the help he needs. The other option to pursue is to convert this to a moderated listserve and require everyone to pass muster with a published list of requirements to join. Membership then goes from a right to a priviledge. I am a member of several groups like that and it works fine, but, if that is the way we go, don't kid yourselves that this is still a free and open forum. Then there is the technical side. We can ban all the net adresses we have for him but we can't keep him off. Net addresses are easy to get and even if you pass requirements that would cost him time or money. For all his bombast, he is smart and the tools to hack e-mail addresses and the like are on the web if you know where to look. Please remember that he is intentionally pushing our buttons. Everytime you acknowledge DS, everytime you get angry at him, speak to or at or about him, he is manipulating you to get what he wants which is attention. Please think about that before you respond to or about him. You all certainly have the right to express you opinions about him, his eating habits, and the like but each time you do, it plays into his mental illness and your aren't helping him or us. One last note, this is tame in comparision to some flame wars I have witnessed on the web. The concept of lawsuit is freely tossed around in those discussions as well as threats of physical damage, sexual assault and the like and while individuals can and have certainly been successfully prosecuted and/or sued, the ISP has always been held blameless in such instances. The only time an ISP caves is when they figure the expense of the various lawsuits becomes a financial burden. I have said too much and won't comment on this round of "ban the boob" again. Mark ROunds At 08:52 PM 6/23/2003 -0700, Tom Hansen wrote: >As much as I hate virtually everything Stambler represents, "pulling the >plug" would not be the right thing to do. > >Tom Hansen > From thansen@moscow.com Tue Jun 24 13:40:36 2003 From: thansen@moscow.com (Tom Hansen) Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2003 05:40:36 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] Is it a right....... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Ms. Boskovich - You fail to understand my posting. It simply states that Stambler has the right to post his ignorant ramblings (meaning that it is not illegal). There is no criminal law against libel or slander. It is a civil matter, Thus Doug Wilson (and possibly the Logos School) should pursue Stambler in a civil litigation. Take care, Tom Hansen Moscow, Idaho From thansen@moscow.com Tue Jun 24 13:47:16 2003 From: thansen@moscow.com (Tom Hansen) Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2003 05:47:16 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] Is it a right....... In-Reply-To: <27.4307de05.2c29273c@aol.com> Message-ID: I am not an attorney. I think that if this listserve is privately owned, membership is a matter of privilege. If the listserve is publicly owned, membership becomes a matter of right. To me, it is a matter of who is paying to maintain the Vision2020 listserve. Any attornies that can answer these questions? Tom Hansen Moscow, Idaho -----Original Message----- From: vision2020-admin@moscow.com [mailto:vision2020-admin@moscow.com]On Behalf Of Cjsnightclub@aol.com Sent: Monday, June 23, 2003 9:02 PM To: gussie443@hotmail.com; vision2020@moscow.com Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Is it a right....... I'm not sure that you understood my question. The Constitution gives us the right to free speech in certain forums. Driving a car is not s right. It is a privilege. Posting on this forum, I am not sure is a right. I think it is a privilege. We need an attorney to pipe up and tell us. Phil From london@moscow.com Tue Jun 24 17:47:01 2003 From: london@moscow.com (Bill London) Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2003 09:47:01 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] the rantings References: Message-ID: <3EF88085.A3C482C5@moscow.com> --------------3205B241251141301285A41A Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Ellen Roskovich suggests deleting Stambler from the V2020 list and says that 5 years ago the precedent was established in a similar series of libelous postings. That is not correct. Five years ago, two women did bombard the V2020 list with postings attacking a local attorney and a local judge. A similar outcry from V2020 subscribers occured. In response, those two women stopped posting voluntarily. They were NOT purged from the list. The postings to V2020 have never been moderated or controlled in any way and nobody has ever been purged from this list. However, she was correct that in response, that attorney requested that one especially disgusting post be deleted from the archives. And yes, that did happen. BL Ellen Roskovich wrote: > > > Dear Mr. Wilson: > > You should not have to put up with this. Your family should not be > made to suffer. First Step Research CAN and HAS pulled the plug in > the past. Those new to the list don't realize this because everything > was purged from the archives. Let's not make a mockery of free > speech.....this is TRASH. > > E.A. Roskovich, Moscow, ID > >From: Bill London > >Reply-To: london@moscow.com > >To: Douglas , Vision2020 > >Subject: [Vision2020] the rantings > >Date: Mon, 23 Jun 2003 17:28:31 -0700 > > > >Open letter to Doug Wilson: > > > >I want to apologize for the rantings you have endured as postings to > the > >Vision 2020 list. I am truly sorry that your name and reputation is > >being attacked in this reprehensible manner. > > > >A number of V2020 members have suggested that the author of those > >messages be dropped from the V2020 list. While I certainly understand > > >why they want to eliminate those postings, I disagree with that > tactic. > > > >I am writing you to explain why, in hopes that you will agree that > >allowing such postings is not evidence of agreement or support by > Vision > >2020 or any of the list's subscribers. And I want to make it clear > that > >I totally reject the vile and malicious nature of those messages. I > >just feel that the values of open discussion, free speech and an > >unmoderated list are paramount. > > > >Vision 2020 is ten years old. Throughout that decade, at least four > or > >five times, the list was bombarded with some variety of > >potentially-libelous postings by some disgruntled person who saw the > >list as an opportunity to rant. In each case, the V2020 > >subscriber/members were polled with the question: should this list > stop > >being an open vehicle for free speech and become a moderated > >discussion? Every time the answer has been "no--let's just use our > >delete keys." > > > >Plenty of related issues were discussed each time. Most dealt with > the > >question of who would become the moderator, and what would be the > >criteria for elimination of a posting or a poster. Nobody wanted that > > >responsibility. > > > >And I think legally, there is plenty of reason for everyone to reject > > >that responsibility. My understanding is that any public > communication > >system (Daily News, ISP list manager, etc) that manages the > information > >in any way (allows some and not others, etc) can be held responsible > for > >libelous material. However, if that system does not manage the > >information in any way (much like the soap box in Hyde Park), then > there > >is no legal responsibility for the libelous material. > >I don't think that is just a legalese distinction. I think it is the > >essence of our right of free speech. > > > >I guess I just think that the V2020 subscribers are able to recognize > > >the source of the rantings and reject them. While those posted > >accusations are certainly uncomfortable for you, I do not think > anyone > >believes the source of those accusations. > > > >BL > > > >_____________________________________________________ > > List services made available by First Step Internet, > > serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994. > > http://www.fsr.net > > mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com > >ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > MSN 8 with e-mail virus protection service: 2 months FREE* > _____________________________________________________ List services > made available by First Step Internet, serving the communities of the > Palouse since 1994. http://www.fsr.net mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com > ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ --------------3205B241251141301285A41A Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Ellen Roskovich suggests deleting Stambler from the V2020 list and says that 5 years ago the precedent was established in a similar series of libelous postings.
That is not correct.  Five years ago, two women did bombard the V2020 list with postings attacking a local attorney and a local judge.
A similar outcry from V2020 subscribers occured.
In response, those two women stopped posting voluntarily.  They were NOT purged from the list.  The postings to V2020 have never been moderated or controlled in any way and nobody has ever been purged from this list.
However, she was correct that in response, that attorney requested that one especially disgusting post be deleted from the archives.  And yes, that did happen.
BL

Ellen Roskovich wrote:

 

Dear Mr. Wilson:

You should not have to put up with this.  Your family should not be made to suffer.  First Step Research CAN and HAS pulled the plug in the past.  Those new to the list don't realize this because everything was purged from the archives.  Let's not make a mockery of free speech.....this is TRASH.

E.A. Roskovich, Moscow, ID
 >From: Bill London 
>Reply-To: london@moscow.com
>To: Douglas , Vision2020 
>Subject: [Vision2020] the rantings
>Date: Mon, 23 Jun 2003 17:28:31 -0700
>
>Open letter to Doug Wilson:
>
>I want to apologize for the rantings you have endured as postings to the
>Vision 2020 list. I am truly sorry that your name and reputation is
>being attacked in this reprehensible manner.
>
>A number of V2020 members have suggested that the author of those
>messages be dropped from the V2020 list. While I certainly understand
>why they want to eliminate those postings, I disagree with that tactic.
>
>I am writing you to explain why, in hopes that you will agree that
>allowing such postings is not evidence of agreement or support by Vision
>2020 or any of the list's subscribers. And I want to make it clear that
>I totally reject the vile and malicious nature of those messages. I
>just feel that the values of open discussion, free speech and an
>unmoderated list are paramount.
>
>Vision 2020 is ten years old. Throughout that decade, at least four or
>five times, the list was bombarded with some variety of
>potentially-libelous postings by some disgruntled person who saw the
>list as an opportunity to rant. In each case, the V2020
>subscriber/members were polled with the question: should this list stop
>being an open vehicle for free speech and become a moderated
>discussion? Every time the answer has been "no--let's just use our
>delete keys."
>
>Plenty of related issues were discussed each time. Most dealt with the
>question of who would become the moderator, and what would be the
>criteria for elimination of a posting or a poster. Nobody wanted that
>responsibility.
>
>And I think legally, there is plenty of reason for everyone to reject
>that responsibility. My understanding is that any public communication
>system (Daily News, ISP list manager, etc) that manages the information
>in any way (allows some and not others, etc) can be held responsible for
>libelous material. However, if that system does not manage the
>information in any way (much like the soap box in Hyde Park), then there
>is no legal responsibility for the libelous material.
>I don't think that is just a legalese distinction. I think it is the
>essence of our right of free speech.
>
>I guess I just think that the V2020 subscribers are able to recognize
>the source of the rantings and reject them. While those posted
>accusations are certainly uncomfortable for you, I do not think anyone
>believes the source of those accusations.
>
>BL
>
>_____________________________________________________
> List services made available by First Step Internet,
> serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
> http://www.fsr.net
> mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com
>¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯


MSN 8 with e-mail virus protection service: 2 months FREE* _____________________________________________________ List services made available by First Step Internet, serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994. http://www.fsr.net mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com ¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯
--------------3205B241251141301285A41A-- From london@moscow.com Tue Jun 24 18:25:53 2003 From: london@moscow.com (Bill London) Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2003 10:25:53 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] don't blame FSR Message-ID: <3EF889A1.45820D1@moscow.com> I am afraid that we are on the verge of alienating our benefactor. FSR provides the hosting/maintenance for the V2020 list FOR FREE, as in no charge, as in without their support this list is dead. This discussion about purging Stambler has taken a direction that threatens the relationship between V2020 and FSR. I worry that recent postings blame FSR for what have been decisions by V2020 subscribers to not move toward a moderated list. FSR does not make the decisions about whether or not to purge individuals from this list. The V2020 member/subscribers make that decision. If I were an owner of FSR, I would be very nervous now. I would not like the attacks made on FSR in this public forum. I would weigh the benefits of continuing this relationship. I would wonder if the negative publicity and bad feelings and extra hassle were really worth it. Please remember that FSR donates their support with the very sensible business reason that they want their donation to build good will. If we poison that relationship, we risk losing their support. We should be praising FSR, not blaming FSR. BL From london@moscow.com Tue Jun 24 18:37:05 2003 From: london@moscow.com (Bill London) Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2003 10:37:05 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] steering committee Message-ID: <3EF88C41.5279F9C9@moscow.com> Vision 2020 was established ten years ago by a group of Moscow residents who had lots more enthusiasm and energy than they now possess. Vision 2020 originally was engaged in a host of activities. We sponsored a community forum, an envisioning (what should Moscow be like in 20 years), and created this email forum. To organize and manage those activities, a steering committee of three persons was created. V2020 never had a budget, membership, officers, legal incorporation, or any money. As I recall the three steering committee members were Kenton Bird, Priscilla Salant, and myself. Kenton and Priscilla have taken on a host of new responsibilities and are not active in V2020 now. Several years ago, I posted a message explaining this situation and asking if anyone wanted to volunteer as a steering committee member. Nobody did. I really have no idea why V2020 would need a steering committee. What should V2020 be doing in addition to this list? The decision-making for V2020 has been done by the subscriber/members. When a major issue surfaces, the members discuss and vote. Actually, the last voting was about what to do with Stambler (sound familiar?) a year or so ago--and the decision was to keep V2020 as a non-moderated list with no controls on membership (for all the reasons we have heard again). BL From thansen@moscow.com Tue Jun 24 19:37:37 2003 From: thansen@moscow.com (thansen@moscow.com) Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2003 18:37:37 GMT Subject: [Vision2020] steering committee Message-ID: <200306241806.h5OI6tQU000505@whale2.fsr.net> I agree, Mr. London. Everybody should sit back in their chairs, take three deep breaths and thank FSR for availing this "platform" to us at no cost. Vision2020 is a very very powerful tool if used correctly. In my mind, that does not include defining what is appropriate and inappropriate behavior or "Standards of Decency" that was reflected upon earlier. Yes, I despise those comments and threats made by Mr. Stambler. But, when we decide to establish boundaries of what is considered acceptable, that is when I terminate my subscription to this listserve. I am a non-conformist and proud of it. People have considerd me to be weird. Never confuse weird with different, people! Everybody in this world has the right (No, it is not a privilege) to be themselves provided this right does not adversely impact on others' rights to be themselves. This comment should not be misconstrued to suggest in any way that I support "black listing" Mr. Stambler. If you don't like what is on televison, change the damn channel. Many thanks to First Step Internet for providing and maintaining this platform. Well done, guys. Take care of yourselves (and each other), Tom Hansen Moscow, Idaho --------------------------------------------- This message was sent by First Step Internet. http://www.fsr.net/ From ppalmer@moscow.com Tue Jun 24 21:08:30 2003 From: ppalmer@moscow.com (Pam Palmer) Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2003 13:08:30 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] Re: Latah Trail Message-ID: > This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. --B_3139305007_7989946 Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Thanks to Bruce for his comments about the Latah Trail project! Thanks, also, to the hundreds of people who have donated money to the Latah Trail and to the tireless volunteers who=B9ve helped the trail project during the past three + years. In addition to the good news about right-of-way acquisitions, here are a fe= w other updates. *The Idaho Department of Parks and Recreation approved funding ($48,000) fo= r more paving on the Troy end of the trail (scheduled for July.) That=B9s grea= t news for our 2nd annual Latah Trail Fun Run in the fall! The Latah Trail Foundation has pledged $12,000 to Latah County to be used as matching funds for that project. There are lots more opportunities for you to donate for the upcoming construction. (Last year, we were able to stretch the length of trail paved by donating extra funds to the County during construction.) *Idaho Transportation Department is preparing to pave the portion of the trail between Moscow and Eastman Acres and there are three bridges that nee= d to be completed. We need help with construction funds for the bridges. (Or= , if you have expertise in this area, we=B9d love to hear from you.) *We had ten people show up last Wednesday to plant trees and shrubs in Troy= ! Thanks to the University of Idaho tree nursery for providing us with native trees and shrubs to use on the Trail. We still have some plants left, so w= e may try to organize another planting soon. Let me know if you=B9d like to volunteer. *Be sure to visit the Latah Trail Foundation=B9s table at the Farmer=B9s Market on Saturdays. We=B9ve recently added an eye-catching new color in the adult Latah Trail short sleeve t-shirts! Also stop by to check out the new Latah Trail concept map. Members of the Latah Trail advisory committee put in many hours during the past year to complete the Latah Trail concept plan (due to be published in July.) Thanks also to the volunteers on the art an= d design subcommittee for their ongoing efforts. Your tax-deductible donation to the Latah Trail can be sent to: Latah Trail Foundation P.O. Box 9344 Moscow, Idaho 83843 Thanks for your support! ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ PAMELA PALMER Executive Director, Latah Trail Foundation Mailto:ppalmer@moscow.com 208-883-3741 Latah Trail Foundation P.O. Box 9344 Moscow, Idaho 83843 http://www.latahtrailfoundation.org LTF, Inc. is a 501(c)(3) non-profit organization. Help build the Trail with your tax-deductible donation. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~=20 --B_3139305007_7989946 Content-type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Re: Latah Trail Thanks to Bruce for his comments about the Latah Trail= project! Thanks, also, to the hundreds of people who have donated money to = the Latah Trail and to the tireless volunteers who’ve helped the trail= project during the past three + years.

In addition to the good news about right-of-way acquisitions, here are a fe= w other updates.

*The Idaho Department of Parks and Recreation approved funding ($48,000) fo= r more paving on the Troy end of the trail (scheduled for July.)  That&= #8217;s great news for our 2nd annual Latah Trail Fun Run in the fall!  = ;The Latah Trail Foundation has pledged $12,000 to Latah County to be used a= s matching funds for that project. There are lots more opportunities for you= to donate for the upcoming construction.  (Last year, we were able to = stretch the length of trail paved by donating extra funds to the County duri= ng construction.)

*Idaho Transportation Department is preparing to pave the portion of the tr= ail between Moscow and Eastman Acres and there are three bridges that need t= o be completed.  We need help with construction funds for the bridges. = (Or, if you have expertise in this area, we’d love to hear from you.)<= BR>
*We had ten people show up last Wednesday to plant trees and shrubs in Troy= !  Thanks to the University of Idaho tree nursery for providing us with= native trees and shrubs to use on the Trail.  We still have some plant= s left, so we may try to organize another planting soon.  Let me know i= f you’d like to volunteer.

*Be sure to visit the Latah Trail Foundation’s table at the Farmer= 217;s Market on Saturdays.  We’ve recently added an eye-catching = new color in the adult Latah Trail short sleeve t-shirts!  Also stop by= to check out the new Latah Trail concept map.  Members of the Latah Tr= ail advisory committee put in many hours during the past year to complete th= e Latah Trail concept plan (due to be published in July.)  Thanks also = to the volunteers on the art and design subcommittee for their ongoing effor= ts.

Your tax-deductible donation to the Latah Trail can be sent to:
Latah Trail Foundation
P.O. Box 9344
Moscow, Idaho   83843

Thanks for your support!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
PAMELA PALMER
Executive Director, Latah Trail Foundation
Mailto:ppalmer@moscow.com
208-883-3741

Latah Trail Foundation
P.O. Box 9344
Moscow, Idaho   83843
http://www.latahtrailfoundation.org
LTF, Inc. is a 501(c)(3) non-profit organization.
Help build the Trail with your tax-deductible donation.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
--B_3139305007_7989946-- From carlwestberg846@hotmail.com Tue Jun 24 22:43:12 2003 From: carlwestberg846@hotmail.com (Carl Westberg) Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2003 14:43:12 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] Kempthorne Message-ID: It appears that Idaho governor Dirk Kempthorne is the leading candidate to take over the EPA in Washington. This seems a curious choice, given Kempthorne's less than stellar environmental record during his tenure in Boise. Both this morning's Tribune and Spokesman have a story detailing his environmental track record. Of course, someone without a real concern for the environment would be a logical choice for this administration's EPA director. But an even more chilling realization hit me today. If Mr. Kempthorne does go to Washington, that leaves Lt. Governor Jim Risch in charge. Oy vey... Carl Westberg Jr. _________________________________________________________________ Tired of spam? Get advanced junk mail protection with MSN 8. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From thansen@moscow.com Wed Jun 25 00:19:06 2003 From: thansen@moscow.com (thansen@moscow.com) Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2003 23:19:06 GMT Subject: [Vision2020] Kempthorne Message-ID: <200306242248.h5OMmOQU088458@whale2.fsr.net> Maybe Kempthorne is the best the Republican party can come up with for the EPA head position. Scary, isn't it? Tom Hansen Moscow, Idaho > It appears that Idaho governor Dirk Kempthorne is the leading candidate to > take over the EPA in Washington. This seems a curious choice, given > Kempthorne's less than stellar environmental record during his tenure in > Boise. Both this morning's Tribune and Spokesman have a story detailing his > environmental track record. Of course, someone without a real concern for > the environment would be a logical choice for this administration's EPA > director. But an even more chilling realization hit me today. If Mr. > Kempthorne does go to Washington, that leaves Lt. Governor Jim Risch in > charge. Oy vey... > > > > Carl Westberg Jr. > > _________________________________________________________________ > Tired of spam? Get advanced junk mail protection with MSN 8. > http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail > > _____________________________________________________ > List services made available by First Step Internet, > serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994. > http://www.fsr.net > mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com > ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ > --------------------------------------------- This message was sent by First Step Internet. http://www.fsr.net/ From davidcb@acm.org Wed Jun 25 00:39:08 2003 From: davidcb@acm.org (David Camden-Britton) Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2003 16:39:08 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] Filtering E-mail Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.0.20030624163900.02319eb8@mail.turbonet.com> One of the neat features of modern e-mail programs is a setting known as a "filter".  It allows you to automagically route messages to various mailboxes, or the trash, based on criteria you choose.  It makes it fairly quick and painless to remove an unwanted presence from your e-mail.

Here's how to do this in the Eudora E-mail client:
On the top menu bar click:  Special --> Make Filter

A dialogue box will come up where you fill in the name of who you'd like to filter.  For instance, if you'd like to filter posts made by Douglas Stambler, enter:  Douglas Stambler <stopchristchurch@yahoo.com>   in the "From" box.

On the bottom of the dialogue box, there is a setting for where to send the filtered message.  Select "Delete Message (Send to Trash)" if you'd like.

Now, whenever you receive a message that matches that criteria, Eudora will automagically send it to the trash bin. No muss, little fuss.

If you use Yahoo to read your e-mail, it can be done by selecting "Mail Options" at the main e-mail window. Then "Block Addresses". Enter "stopchristchurch@yahoo.com ", for example, and it will be added to your blocked list. 

For Microsoft Outlook, at the top menu bar select:  Tools --> Rules Wizard

When the Rules Wizard dialogue box pops up, select "Add". 

Under "Which type of Rule do you want to create", select "Move new messages from someone".

Select the underlined "People" link and a Rule Address box will pop up.  If you don't have Douglas Stambler in your list of people, then select "Create New Contact", enter his information and e-mail address then hit OK.  Now, select his name, and click the "From->" button and it will be added to the list on the right. Hit OK.

Click the underlined "Specified folder" and select Deleted Items.

If you want to be trickier, add more conditions, but otherwise click "Next->" twice and give this rule a name. Select Finish.

Make sure the rule has a checkmark in the box, then click OK.  Ta-da!

For other e-mail clients or systems, please consult your documentation (F1 will bring up a help menu, usually. Look for "Filters" or "Rules" under the help search feature.

Hope this helps.

David Camden-Britton -=)*(=-  davidcb@acm.org From donovanarnold@hotmail.com Wed Jun 25 00:44:12 2003 From: donovanarnold@hotmail.com (Donovan Arnold) Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2003 16:44:12 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] Kempthorne Message-ID:

Good! I think the further that Kempthorne is away from Idaho, the better off Idaho will be!

As far as Jim Risch is concerned, that is the best thing that could happen to the Democrats in Idaho. His extremism on issues will destroy the Republican Party, if that is possible, in Idaho. A Democrat is sure to win in 2006 against him and fuel more Democrats campaigns in the 2004 elections. I voted for Risch, and was the only Republican I voted for on the statewide level, because I know he and Kempthorne don't like each other and I wanted to make Kempthorne as miserable as he makes the people of Idaho. Risch and Buchanan are identical twins and do wonders to help the Democrats.

Donovan J. Arnold

>From: thansen@moscow.com
>To: "Carl Westberg" , vision2020@moscow.com
>Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Kempthorne
>Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2003 23:19:06 GMT
>
>Maybe Kempthorne is the best the Republican party can come up with for the EPA
>head position. Scary, isn't it?
>
>Tom Hansen
>Moscow, Idaho
>
> > It appears that Idaho governor Dirk Kempthorne is the leading candidate to
> > take over the EPA in Washington. This seems a curious choice, given
> > Kempthorne's less than stellar environmental record during his tenure in
> > Boise. Both this morning's Tribune and Spokesman have a story detailing his
> > environmental track record. Of course, someone without a real concern for
> > the environment would be a logical choice for this administration's EPA
> > director. But an even more chilling realization hit me today. If Mr.
> > Kempthorne does go to Washington, that leaves Lt. Governor Jim Risch in
> > charge. Oy vey...
> >
> >
> >
> > Carl Westberg Jr.
> >
> > _________________________________________________________________
> > Tired of spam? Get advanced junk mail protection with MSN 8.
> > http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail
> >
> > _____________________________________________________
> > List services made available by First Step Internet,
> > serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
> > http://www.fsr.net
> > mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com
> > ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ
> >
>
>
>---------------------------------------------
>This message was sent by First Step Internet.
> http://www.fsr.net/
>
>
>_____________________________________________________
> List services made available by First Step Internet,
> serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
> http://www.fsr.net
> mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com
>ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ

Add photos to your e-mail with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. From dgray@uidaho.edu Wed Jun 25 00:51:38 2003 From: dgray@uidaho.edu (Debbie Gray) Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2003 16:51:38 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Vision2020] Kempthorne In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: That's a fairly shortsighted view. Especially since the EPA has much to do with the quality of life IN Idaho ... The Spokesman has also been discussing how Dirk wants the EPA out of the Silver Valley ASAP. Wonder what his first action would be ... It just blows me away that they would even consider someone who doesn't even have a science degree of any kind for a position such as this. Why not Julia Child? Geraldo Rivera? RuPaul? Equally qualified, in my opinion. Debbie On Tue, 24 Jun 2003, Donovan Arnold wrote: > > Good! I think the further that Kempthorne is away from Idaho, the better off Idaho will > be! Debbie %^%^%^%^%^%^%^%^%^%^%^%^%^%^%^%^%^%^%^%^%^%^%^%^%^%^%^%^%^%^%^%^%^%^%^% Debbie Gray dgray@uidaho.edu http://www.uidaho.edu/~dgray/ We must be willing to get rid of the life we've planned, so as to have the life that is waiting for us." --Joseph Campbell %^%^%^%^%^%^%^%^%^%^%^%^%^%^%^%^%^%^%^%^%^%^%^%^%^%^%^%^%^%^%^%^%^%^%^% From davidcb@acm.org Wed Jun 25 00:51:29 2003 From: davidcb@acm.org (David Camden-Britton) Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2003 16:51:29 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] Email and Libel Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.0.20030624164352.023c5bc8@mail.turbonet.com> Just so we've got the same notions, here is the dictionary.com definition for Libel:
li=B7bel 
n.=20
    1. A false publication, as in writing, print, signs, or pictures, that damages a person's reputation.=20
    2. The act of presenting such material to the public.=20
So, unless Mr. Stambler were to shout his material from the rooftops of Moscow, which might be an amusing sight if he were to wear a chimney sweeper's outfit, he is merely being somewhat libelous.

The difficulty with any such thing is to prove that his rantings have damaged anyone's reputation. As it seems no one on this list take him very seriously, proving such damages in court would be very difficult.

More to the point, the notion of holding FSR liable for such material is ridiculous. Their generosity in providing a free, public e-mail service does not make them automatically liable for the opinions expressed using said list, except in some other countries.  It is a blessing that we have the First Amendment to protect such expressions, and laws to deal with people who overstep the bounds of propriety and actually damage another's reputation.

So, as a last thought, please see my e-mail about Filtering messages, as that, or the delete key, seems the least harmful way to deal with troublemakers. Also, you can do some pretty spiffy things with filters, so they bear looking into.  For instance, I have it set so that all the Vision2020 posts are automatically forwarded to their own folder, so that my main inbox is not overwhelmed on heavy traffic days.

It's an interesting list, and worth preserving in its current incarnation. Thanks to FSR for hosting it, and in the borrowed words of movie greats, "We don't need no steenkin' moderators!"

David Camden-Britton -=3D)*(=3D-  davidcb@acm.org From dkaag@turbonet.com Wed Jun 25 01:10:46 2003 From: dkaag@turbonet.com (Don Kaag) Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2003 17:10:46 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] Kempthorne In-Reply-To: <200306242248.h5OMmOQU088458@whale2.fsr.net> Message-ID: <77FE946D-A6A1-11D7-B1B5-000393B120B6@turbonet.com> Visionaries: Sigh. Dirk Kempthorne as EPA chief. Looking on the good side of a bad plan, I suppose just having him out of Idaho is a plus. As old and jaded politically as I am, I still felt compelled to send an email to the White House last month (Which I know full well that no one will read...). It pointed out that Teddy Roosevelt was a Republican, and that if Dubya wanted to build a lasting legacy for his administration, emulating T.R. and his passionate defense of the environment for future generations and against the "Old Guard" Republicans, who were owned in fee simple by Big Business, was the smart way to go. I know that it won't do much good, given the current pro-business/anti-environment attitude in the GOP, but I had to take a shot. At least it made me feel better. And how could Jim Risch be any worse than "Old Do-Nothing"? Looks like a wash to me... Regards, Don Kaag On Tuesday, June 24, 2003, at 04:19 PM, thansen@moscow.com wrote: > Maybe Kempthorne is the best the Republican party can come up with for > the EPA > head position. Scary, isn't it? > > Tom Hansen > Moscow, Idaho > >> It appears that Idaho governor Dirk Kempthorne is the leading >> candidate to >> take over the EPA in Washington. This seems a curious choice, given >> Kempthorne's less than stellar environmental record during his tenure >> in >> Boise. Both this morning's Tribune and Spokesman have a story >> detailing his >> environmental track record. Of course, someone without a real >> concern for >> the environment would be a logical choice for this administration's >> EPA >> director. But an even more chilling realization hit me today. If Mr. >> Kempthorne does go to Washington, that leaves Lt. Governor Jim Risch >> in >> charge. Oy vey... >> >> >> >> Carl Westberg Jr. >> >> _________________________________________________________________ >> Tired of spam? Get advanced junk mail protection with MSN 8. >> http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail >> >> _____________________________________________________ >> List services made available by First Step Internet, >> serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994. >> http://www.fsr.net >> mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com >> ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ >> > > > --------------------------------------------- > This message was sent by First Step Internet. > http://www.fsr.net/ > > > _____________________________________________________ > List services made available by First Step Internet, > serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994. > http://www.fsr.net > mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com > ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ > From aphro@angelfire.com Wed Jun 25 01:20:12 2003 From: aphro@angelfire.com (aphro dite) Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2003 17:20:12 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] free speech Message-ID: Though I believe in the right to free speech even at the cost of several personally slanderous statements said or published . . . I find this list not quite what I was expecting. Whenever a topic is brought up that actually affect the future of Moscow and Idaho (actual issues i.e. the recent posting about testing homeschoolers and forcing them into the public system...) a few people find a few intelligent things to say, no solution seems to be found (which is ok.... I think discussion is the point here, right?)... And then the issue dies quickly. Yet, there are two particular (yet closely related) issues that are focused on: Religion ("I'm right, you're wrong.") And one person who feels its his religious duty to fill this list with slanderous messages. I've never even met this fellow, and I showed up on one of his "hate" lists. (Not by name, but by affiliation within one of the groups he hates.) Yet I say, YES to free speech. Let him post. Let me post. Thank you. But does anyone care about actual issues? Ignoring it has been mentioned before, but never happened. I'd much rather talk about things that make a difference. For example, the latest topic of homeschool testing. Hasn't anyone realized the rediculous waste of money and resources that standardized testing is? And forcing people into a system that doesn't fit personal needs is anything but positive and progressive. Is there anything in this proposed law accounting for homeschoolers with learning disabilities? I could go off on this one with much more issues for hours.... -Amber Montgomery ____________________________________________________________ Get 25MB of email storage with Lycos Mail Plus! Sign up today -- http://www.mail.lycos.com/brandPage.shtml?pageId=plus From thansen@moscow.com Wed Jun 25 01:23:37 2003 From: thansen@moscow.com (Tom Hansen) Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2003 17:23:37 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] Email and Libel In-Reply-To: <5.2.1.1.0.20030624164352.023c5bc8@mail.turbonet.com> Message-ID: David Camden-Britton stated: "Just so we've got the same notions, here is the dictionary.com definition for Libel: li·bel n. A false publication, as in writing, print, signs, or pictures, that damages a person's reputation. The act of presenting such material to the public." That might actually mean something in this discussion if our court system was responsible to dictionary.com. Can any attornies out there enlighten us as to the "legal" definition of libel? Thank you, Tom Hansen Moscow From aphro@angelfire.com Wed Jun 25 01:47:14 2003 From: aphro@angelfire.com (aphro dite) Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2003 17:47:14 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] Re: Kempthorne Message-ID: Kempthorne leaving Idaho good? Do you realize how much MORE damage he can do (especially in Idaho) as head of the EPA? Dear Mother Earth, I am so sorry! -Amber Montgomery ____________________________________________________________ Get 25MB of email storage with Lycos Mail Plus! Sign up today -- http://www.mail.lycos.com/brandPage.shtml?pageId=plus From davidcb@acm.org Wed Jun 25 02:00:44 2003 From: davidcb@acm.org (David Camden-Britton) Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2003 18:00:44 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] Email and Libel In-Reply-To: References: <5.2.1.1.0.20030624164352.023c5bc8@mail.turbonet.com> Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.0.20030624175046.024fdc18@mail.turbonet.com> At 05:23 PM 6/24/2003 -0700, you wrote:

That might actually mean something in this discussion if our court system
was responsible to dictionary.com.

Though I'm not an attorney, a quick visit to Google brought this up:
http://www.lawdesk.com/legal_dictionary/letter_l.htm

Libel: Published words or pictures that falsely and maliciously defame a person. Libel is published defamation; slander is spoken.
Defamation: That which tends to injure a persons reputation. Libel is published defamation, whereas slander is spoken.

More of the same can be found here: http://1st-law-website-design.com/canada/Legal-Dictionary/L.htm and here: http://www.legal-forms-kit.com/legal-dictionary/l.html and here: http://www.aa-accidentattorneys.com/legal_dictionary.html#sectL and one from the UK: http://www.wilson-nesbitt.co.uk/dictionary1.htm

However, you may be looking for more practical information on how it applies to the Internet and messaging systems such as this e-mail list. Ask, and Google provides:  http://cse.stanford.edu/class/cs201/Projects/defamation-and-the-internet/index2.html

That's a pretty nice run-down of some specific cases and how they were resolved, as well as relevant definitions and a more complete introduction to defamation and how it applies to online services.

David Camden-Britton -=)*(=-  davidcb@acm.org From thansen@moscow.com Wed Jun 25 02:25:50 2003 From: thansen@moscow.com (Tom Hansen) Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2003 18:25:50 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] Email and Libel In-Reply-To: <5.2.1.1.0.20030624175046.024fdc18@mail.turbonet.com> Message-ID: David Camden-Britton stated: "Libel: Published words or pictures that falsely and maliciously defame a person. Libel is published defamation; slander is spoken. Defamation: That which tends to injure a persons reputation. Libel is published defamation, whereas slander is spoken. " Yep. Sounds like Mr. Stambler to me. FYI, Vision2020 is a public forum. Take care, Tom Hansen Moscow, Idaho From sslund@moscow.com Wed Jun 25 02:53:35 2003 From: sslund@moscow.com (Saundra Lund) Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2003 18:53:35 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] free speech In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <001801c33abc$971b0960$6501a8c0@pooh> Ms. Montgomery wrote: "Hasn't anyone realized the rediculous waste of money and resources that standardized testing is?" I'd like to think a lot of people, especially teachers, realize this. My best friend is a teacher (in another district) and told me exactly how many teaching days he lost this past year due to standardized testing -- that was a real eye-opener. Also, I heard several teachers in this district complaining about the loss of teaching time due to the testing. I'm certainly not an expert on the topic, but I do think there are (many) problems with standardized testing, most especially the teaching time lost for the testing itself, training teachers for the testing, teaching to the testing (which is, IMHO, done far more often & intensely than most anyone admits), etc. OTOH, I do believe that schools need to be held accountable for teaching our kids, and I'm not sure how effective non-standardized-testing methods of assessing education are/would be. Thoughts? Saundra Lund Moscow, Idaho The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good people to do nothing. Edmund Burke -----Original Message----- From: vision2020-admin@moscow.com [mailto:vision2020-admin@moscow.com] On Behalf Of aphro dite Sent: Tuesday, June 24, 2003 5:20 PM To: vision2020@moscow.com Subject: [Vision2020] free speech Though I believe in the right to free speech even at the cost of several personally slanderous statements said or published . . . I find this list not quite what I was expecting. Whenever a topic is brought up that actually affect the future of Moscow and Idaho (actual issues i.e. the recent posting about testing homeschoolers and forcing them into the public system...) a few people find a few intelligent things to say, no solution seems to be found (which is ok.... I think discussion is the point here, right?)... And then the issue dies quickly. Yet, there are two particular (yet closely related) issues that are focused on: Religion ("I'm right, you're wrong.") And one person who feels its his religious duty to fill this list with slanderous messages. I've never even met this fellow, and I showed up on one of his "hate" lists. (Not by name, but by affiliation within one of the groups he hates.) Yet I say, YES to free speech. Let him post. Let me post. Thank you. But does anyone care about actual issues? Ignoring it has been mentioned before, but never happened. I'd much rather talk about things that make a difference. For example, the latest topic of homeschool testing. Hasn't anyone realized the rediculous waste of money and resources that standardized testing is? And forcing people into a system that doesn't fit personal needs is anything but positive and progressive. Is there anything in this proposed law accounting for homeschoolers with learning disabilities? I could go off on this one with much more issues for hours.... -Amber Montgomery From ted_moffett@hotmail.com Wed Jun 25 04:01:21 2003 From: ted_moffett@hotmail.com (Ted Moffett) Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2003 03:01:21 +0000 Subject: [Vision2020] free speech Message-ID: Amber et. al. Some think the topic of religion on V2020 is inappropriate. But given how religion effects the opinions of people on everything from how they view war, to educational funding, to the environment and development, to abortion rights, to justifying or rejecting greed, or respecting women's or minority rights, on and on, I find it questionable to leave out of V2020 discussion the 500 lb gorilla some seek to avoid admitting is in the room. I do not agree the religious discussions are all "I'm right, your wrong" as you put it. The goal I think is to get beyond the dogmatism of faith that many religious people take for granted to allow for more acceptance of other religious points of view. This does not mean abandoning belief or faith, as many think it must. The diversity of spiritual and religious points of view that human beings entertain are fascinating and all worthy of study and discussion. To encourage open discussion of this religious diversity I think is of immense value to lessen religious hatred and to encourage understanding of the increasingly complex multicultural international world we live in, with nuclear armed Pakistan and India at each other's throats, in part due to religious differences, or the religiously influenced fighting in Afghanistan, Iraq, Israel or N. Ireland, etc. Certainly 9/11 brought into focus the role of religiously influenced hatred in world conflict, impacting us here in Moscow, as it did in much of the entire world. What happens in the Hindu, Islamic, Christian, and Buddhist worlds etc. does effect us here in the USA, and even in little Moscow Idaho. The U of I student now in jail for allegations of certain connections that involved his faith, and the political presence of religious orientations in Moscow that seek to control local politics, are evidence of the role religion plays here in Moscow. Ted >From: "aphro dite" >Reply-To: aphro@angelfire.com >To: vision2020@moscow.com >Subject: [Vision2020] free speech >Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2003 17:20:12 -0700 > >Though I believe in the right to free speech even at the cost of several >personally slanderous statements said or published . . . > >I find this list not quite what I was expecting. > >Whenever a topic is brought up that actually affect the future of Moscow >and Idaho (actual issues i.e. the recent posting about testing >homeschoolers and forcing them into the public system...) a few people find >a few intelligent things to say, no solution seems to be found (which is >ok.... I think discussion is the point here, right?)... And then the issue >dies quickly. > >Yet, there are two particular (yet closely related) issues that are focused >on: Religion ("I'm right, you're wrong.") And one person who feels its his >religious duty to fill this list with slanderous messages. I've never even >met this fellow, and I showed up on one of his "hate" lists. (Not by name, >but by affiliation within one of the groups he hates.) Yet I say, YES to >free speech. Let him post. Let me post. Thank you. But does anyone care >about actual issues? > >Ignoring it has been mentioned before, but never happened. > >I'd much rather talk about things that make a difference. For example, the >latest topic of homeschool testing. Hasn't anyone realized the rediculous >waste of money and resources that standardized testing is? And forcing >people into a system that doesn't fit personal needs is anything but >positive and progressive. Is there anything in this proposed law >accounting for homeschoolers with learning disabilities? I could go off on >this one with much more issues for hours.... > >-Amber Montgomery > > >____________________________________________________________ >Get 25MB of email storage with Lycos Mail Plus! >Sign up today -- http://www.mail.lycos.com/brandPage.shtml?pageId=plus > >_____________________________________________________ > List services made available by First Step Internet, > serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994. > http://www.fsr.net > mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com >ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ _________________________________________________________________ Protect your PC - get McAfee.com VirusScan Online http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963 From thansen@moscow.com Wed Jun 25 04:14:11 2003 From: thansen@moscow.com (Tom Hansen) Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2003 20:14:11 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] free speech In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Ted Moffett stated: "The U of I student now in jail for allegations of certain connections that involved his faith, and the political presence of religious orientations in Moscow that seek to control local politics, are evidence of the role religion plays here in Moscow." What part of channeling hundreds of thousands of dollars to groups with a history of terrorist activities (under the guise of a charitable organization) is considered religious activity, Mr. Moffett? Do you truly believe that a website that preaches the extermination of the infidel (US) government has religious ties to Moscow? Wow!! Now there is a stretch. Tom Hansen Moscow, Idaho From mushroom@moscow.com Wed Jun 25 04:42:09 2003 From: mushroom@moscow.com (Mushroom) Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2003 20:42:09 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] free speech] Message-ID: <3EF91A11.FEFA682D@moscow.com> Tom Hansen wrote: > > What part of channeling hundreds of thousands of dollars to groups with a > history of terrorist activities (under the guise of a charitable > organization) is considered religious activity, Mr. Moffett? Do you truly > believe that a website that preaches the extermination of the infidel (US) > government has religious ties to Moscow? > > Wow!! Now there is a stretch. > Perhaps the stretch is between rumor and innuendo and what has been proven in court? I'm sure you, Tom, support the concept of innocent-until-proven-guilty. I support it even for non-citizens, and I bet you do too, based on your past postings to Vision 2020. In this particular case, it seems that the Bush administration will eventually manage to deport the man and his family, whether or not he supported terrorism -- just because deporting people makes it look like the administration is doing something. Don Coombs From ted_moffett@hotmail.com Wed Jun 25 05:23:56 2003 From: ted_moffett@hotmail.com (Ted Moffett) Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2003 04:23:56 +0000 Subject: [Vision2020] free speech Message-ID: Tom et. al. My point was simply that his involvement with certain religiously oriented activities, involving the Islamic charity and web site you mentioned, was a factor in the events surrounding his arrest. His arrest occurred in Moscow. I never specifically mentioned the web site in question. However, it is clear that this web site has the tie to Moscow that someone attending the U of I was assisting with this web site. However, his guilt has yet to be proven in court, as Don Coombs pointed out. We are not living in an island in Moscow isolated from the the rest of the world, and religious extremism can impact us here, that was my point. What is your point? Ted >From: "Tom Hansen" >Reply-To: >To: "Ted Moffett" , >CC: >Subject: RE: [Vision2020] free speech >Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2003 20:14:11 -0700 > >Ted Moffett stated: > >"The U of I student now in jail for allegations of certain connections that >involved his faith, and the political presence of religious orientations in >Moscow that seek to control local politics, are evidence of the role >religion plays here in Moscow." > >What part of channeling hundreds of thousands of dollars to groups with a >history of terrorist activities (under the guise of a charitable >organization) is considered religious activity, Mr. Moffett? Do you truly >believe that a website that preaches the extermination of the infidel (US) >government has religious ties to Moscow? > >Wow!! Now there is a stretch. > >Tom Hansen >Moscow, Idaho > >_____________________________________________________ > List services made available by First Step Internet, > serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994. > http://www.fsr.net > mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com >ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ _________________________________________________________________ STOP MORE SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From lukenieuwsma@softhome.net Wed Jun 25 06:00:30 2003 From: lukenieuwsma@softhome.net (Luke) Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2003 22:00:30 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] Religious Diversity Education References: Message-ID: <099c01c33ad6$c33fda60$2f00a8c0@MOBILELUKE> Mr. Arnold, >This is not the position I am taking. I saying everyone is wrong, nobody is right. So >who is to judge? That is different then saying everyone is right. They are all only >correct in their attempts to worship God. Wait a minute; you're saying that everyone is wrong, but you are right in saying that everyone is wrong. But if you're right that everyone is wrong, then you are wrong too, so everyone is not wrong. >"how can you avoid the conflictions between belief and belief when people live out >what they believe?" >I know of no person that is able to follow through fully on what they believe. If they >could, they wouldn't be human. The conflict happens when people are unwilling to >accept that the other person may be correct at least some of the time and they are >wrong some of the time. I am fully willing to admit that I, being human, am wrong at times. However, God's Word is not; so if I believe what it clearly says, then I am not wrong. >open to help them make those corrections. If you knew other religions you would >know that most concepts about religion are the same. Believe in God. Worship God. >Follow God's rules. It is only the perception of God that is different. Who has a mind >great enough to fully comprehend all aspects of God? You now admit that we are to follow God's rules. But what are God's rules, Mr. Arnold? What basis do you have for judging morality, for judging truth? You do a lot of both those things, so what is your foundation? >I suggest that considering that you know very little, as do I, in comparison to what the >rest of the world knows that you listen more then you talk, or at least consider that >others know as much or more then you and try to learn from it rather then assuming >you know more then any 1 billion people do in any religion, in yours or not. People may know lots of falsities, but massive amounts of knowledge don't verify anything. Simply knowing thousands of folk legends about unicorns doesn't make it any more likely that there are or were unicorns in real life. To further illustrate the point, if someone wrote down twelve volumes of mathematical numbers of the following: 1 + 0 = 2 1 + 1 = 3 1 + 2 = 4 etc... Even if you memorized all twelve volumes of false mathematics, they are still false, and it doesn't get you anywhere. Sincerely, Luke Nieuwsma From lukenieuwsma@softhome.net Wed Jun 25 06:16:24 2003 From: lukenieuwsma@softhome.net (Luke) Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2003 22:16:24 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] Religious Diversity Education References: Message-ID: <09ad01c33ad8$fa6c3bd0$2f00a8c0@MOBILELUKE> Mr. Moffet: > You and I can disagree on many issues, yet we can live together in peace. > In fact, I can be an atheist, and you can follow the Bible, and if we agree > that murder, theft, fraud and violence are not good for society, we can get > along just fine, unless one of us starts insisting that the other one must > follow their beliefs down to the last detail, or they are doomed to hell, > from the bible believer's point of view, or doomed to dogmatic superstitious > nonsense, from the atheist's point of view. That is not quite true. If you are a logical and consistent atheist, you have no reason to abstain from murder; there is no punishment anyway. You have no reason to abstain from theft; so long as no one catches you, a little money on the side can really be nice. You have no reason to keep from fraud; in a court case, someone might shove over a little dough to keep you quiet, so why not take it? You don't need to be non-violent; there is no consequence. However, a true Christian has biblical reasons, moral imperatives to not do any of these things. You don't murder 1) because of the 10 commandments, and 2) because man was created in the image of God. You don't steal because of the 10 commandments. You don't have anything to do with fraud for the same reason. You avoid violence because God says that He hates violent men. > derived from realizing that the ultimate truth may be beyond anyone's > understanding, is not what creates evil in our world. Much of the evil > comes from people who think they have the ultimate truth which gives them > the right to violently impose this on other people, and kill or imprison > them if they do not agree. Evil comes not from a man's surroundings, but from his heart. You want to see evidence of this? Watch a little kid, perhaps with a younger brother. He doesn't have to be told how to hit his little brother, or how to take away his toy, or how to lie about it afterward. No child must be taught how to be selfish, how to be mean. He does those things automatically; it's part of his nature. It doesn't wait to come out until he has grown old enough to comprehend religions. > that taught them to respect other religious points of view, and to be humble > about asserting that their religion had to be the only true religion, would > they have been as likely to carry out the 9/11 attacks? Yes, I think so, because the image that Muslims, tolerant or not, in the Middle East have of America is one of big, bad Christians who behind the scenes have a wicked culture (for example, porn, crime, and making movies full of immorality, full of nudity, full of all kinds of evil.) Even if they are taught to be unsure of their religion, they would still think of America as a hated enemy. In regard to your desire to accept every religion: Every culture, no matter how tolerant it claims to be, has a form of blasphemy, an object of hate. For example, if I asked the average American whether we should become Nazi's, and find a new Hitler, the answer would be NO WAY! Our culture and history declare Nazism to be a fell evil. One of the idols that American culture today has is feminism. Regardless of my arguments, if I spoke out on this forum against women in government, women in leadership positions, or women in the military, I would immediately be jumped upon by 50 people at once. It wouldn't matter if I argued well, or if you claimed to be tolerant of other people's ways of viewing the world. And the same thing goes for homosexuality. Even you, in all your relativistic, tolerant truths, have beliefs and ideals that you would indeed claim intolerant, absolute truth on. So the question comes down to this: what is the basis for your rules, for your blasphemies, for your moralities? Sincerely, Luke Nieuwsma From davidcb@acm.org Wed Jun 25 10:34:43 2003 From: davidcb@acm.org (David Camden-Britton) Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2003 02:34:43 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] Religious Diversity Education In-Reply-To: <09ad01c33ad8$fa6c3bd0$2f00a8c0@MOBILELUKE> References: Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.0.20030625021639.0250ee10@mail.turbonet.com> At 10:16 PM 6/24/2003 -0700, "Luke" <lukenieuwsma@softhome.net>  wrote:

    That is not quite true. If you are a logical and consistent atheist, you
have no reason to abstain from murder; there is no punishment anyway. You
have no reason to abstain from theft; so long as no one catches you,

What an interesting view of atheism you have. Perhaps you have heard of game theory, a way of looking at interactions between people as a type of game, where you have winners, losers and points. By engaging in the aforementioned activities, you profit at the expense of the other player. In a single, short-sighted game, this may be to your advantage. However, if the game is played over and over, and especially if this game has many players, then such reprehensible acts will cause you to lose, either through incarceration or termination by an angry mob.

There are the interesting ideas of Utilitarian ethics, whereby activities which benefit society as a whole are encouraged, and those that do not are discouraged or halted. For simple situations such as murder or theft, it seems pretty clear that society does not benefit, so one has an ethical duty to not engage in these acts.

You may notice that neither of these make any particular mention of a holy book or commandments handed down from on high, yet I would contend that these both are solid foundations for leading a moral and beneficial life for all concerned. Improving the lot of one's fellow man is in one's own interest due to the net gain for all concerned. Being nice to puppies and kittens and children naturally follows from these sorts of ideas.

The idea that an atheist is also amoral is particularly repugnant, as it seems to not be borne out by reality. I am curious how many self-identified atheists are currently in prison, versus the population with a religious persuasion. If it were indeed the case that atheism leads to amoral, noxious behavior, shouldn't it be clear from a quick visit to a jail who was being locked up with regularity?

Granted, these folks are hardly following the tenets of their professed faith, but it seems that amoral activities are not the sole domain of those without a religion. So, making the leap of "atheist equals murderer, thief, etc." does not follow. Just as it does not follow to say that those who do have a religion automatically commit crimes. Still, when last I checked, we weren't worried about Middle Eastern Atheist Fundamentalists committing terrorist acts, nor were doctors worried that their clinics would be blown up by fundamentalist atheists. It's a curiosity, to be sure.


David Camden-Britton -=)*(=-  davidcb@acm.org From donovanarnold@hotmail.com Wed Jun 25 11:16:39 2003 From: donovanarnold@hotmail.com (Donovan Arnold) Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2003 03:16:39 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] Religious Diversity Education Message-ID:

Luke,

You are once again backing silly logic with more silly logic.

You wrote: "Wait a minute; you're saying that everyone is wrong, but you are right in saying that everyone is wrong. But if you're right that everyone is wrong, then you are wrong too, so everyone is not wrong."

Here is another one "If 50% of all car accidents involve alcohol and 50% don't, what is the difference between being drunk and sober when driving?"

First, You are basing your argument on a false premise. I did not say I was wrong in matters of interpreting the generalized behavior of humans. I said I and all others were wrong in our full understanding of God. Second, it is entirely possible for both people in an argument to be wrong. If one person is arguing that Pluto is the closest planet to Earth and another that Jupiter is the closest planet to the Earth, it is possible that one can disprove the other's claims and still be wrong.

Luke wrote: "I am fully willing to admit that I, being human, am wrong at times. However,
>God's Word is not; so if I believe what it clearly says, then I am not wrong."

Here again Luke, if you are human, and the language you read is written by humans, it is unlikely to "clearly" understand any written word and the intention of the author. This is not saying God is flawed, this is saying the "Human language" and the "reader" are flawed.

If I ask in writing, "Would you rather have a Hippo attack you or a Lion ?" The answer to this question depends on your understanding of the question. If you interpret it to mean I am giving you the option of being attacked by a Hippo or attacked by a Lion, your answer might be that you would rather be attacked by a Hippo. On the other hand, if you interpret it to mean you would rather have a Hippo attack you as the subject of attack, or the Lion as the subject of attack, you would most likely choose to have the Lion attacked then you being attacked.

>

You wrote: "You now admit that we are to follow God's rules. But what are God's rules, Mr. Arnold? What basis do you have for judging morality, for judging truth? You do a lot of both those things, so what is your foundation?"

I never claimed their were not rules.

Two Rules:

1) Love God above all other things and  2) Love you neighbor as yourself

The foundation is understanding and love.

I don't judge the morality of someone's actions , that is God's place. I only judge actions to weigh if I think God would want me to commit those same actions.

you argue:

 "People may know lots of falsities, but massive amounts of knowledge don't verify anything. Simply knowing thousands of folk legends about unicorns doesn't make it any more likely that there are or were unicorns in real life. To further illustrate the point, if someone wrote down twelve volumes of mathematical numbers of the following:

>1 + 0 = 2
>1 + 1 = 3
>1 + 2 = 4
>etc...
>Even if you memorized all twelve volumes of false mathematics, they are

>still false, and it doesn't get you anywhere."

First off, a little history. The Unicorn is based on the visual human interpretation of a desert Gazette facing side ways. If you ever were to see one, the two horns are nearly exactly parallel. So when they stand sideways it appears that they have only one horn in the middle of their head. For an inexperienced person who views the creature getting a drink of water and then dashing off at 50 miles an hour, this can seem pretty mystical.  Almost all legends and myths are based on such instances, from seals being seen for the first time and being mistaken for mermaids, to dragons of Africa that are indeed Komodo Dragons. It is not if these things ever existed, it is the human eye and understanding of what someone is seeing that is the mistake. Illustrating my point that "humans" often misinterpret what they see, hear, and read.

Second, if there was a twelve volume collection of math equations giving "false" answers that would still be knowledge. Using deductive reasoning, having all the incorrect answers leads you to the correct one. Of course this is assuming you are able to interpret that information correctly by interpreting that all of the answers are incorrect. If you were taking a multiple choice quiz, would it not be great if knew the three wrong answers? Or would you insist that only the correct answer was useful?

Donovan J Arnold  


Help STOP SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* From donovanarnold@hotmail.com Wed Jun 25 13:02:36 2003 From: donovanarnold@hotmail.com (Donovan Arnold) Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2003 05:02:36 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] Religious Diversity Education Message-ID:



Luke,

You are hysterical! Absolutely entertaining!

You write "However, a true Christian has biblical reasons, moral imperatives to not do any of these things. You don't murder 1) because of the 10 commandments, and 2) because man was created in the image of God. You don't steal because of the 10 commandments. You don't have anything to do with fraud for the same reason. You avoid violence because God says that He hates violent men."

LOL. If the only reason that you see for not murdering is because it is written in a book, I would fear being around you. Ever hear of the world "Love". Ever hear of the term "jail". Every think of the concept of chaos. How about "revenge" or "insecurity". Or perhaps "negotiation" and "Bargaining", or "friends" and "Respect" hold less value then the benefits murder and theft.

The Bible doesn't list things as being "wrong" just for the sake of calling some things "wrong" and some things "right". There are reasons for why these things are listed. 

You claim "Watch a little kid, perhaps with a younger brother. He doesn't have to be told how to hit his little brother, or how to take away his toy, or how to lie about it afterward. No child must be taught how to be selfish, how to be mean. He does those things automatically; it's part of his nature. It doesn't wait to come out until he has grown old enough to comprehend religions."

So you must have been a rotten kid then Luke. Obviously you had toys and playmates before you understood the concepts of the Bible, or before you could even read the word "Commandments". So based on your logic, as a child you would have robbed, stole, cheated, lied, manipulated, and murdered your playmates since you did not have the ability to understand religion. I, like my siblings, and most my playmates, did not do these things. I found that the kids that bammed another kid in the head or throw sand in other kids eyes wasn't fun to play with and either did the rest of the kids. I also found that sharing toys with my friends produced opportunities to play with their toys, expanding my prospects of both toys to play with and people to play games with. I found that kids that stole other kids toys were untrustworthy and I didn't allow them around my toys and either did others. If they assaulted another kid or myself they usually found another kid larger! then them, usually the kid's that they picked on older brother or sister, pounding their butt into the ground. As a matter of fact, me and my siblings had a bit of a reputation of beating the crap out of other bullies when ever they picked on others. This one kid named Adam on my block was two years older then all the other boys on the block. He was about six, the other boys were 2-5 years old. He beat all the other kids up. So one day, my sister, being about 8, went over and beat the crap out of him in response to his actions. After that he had no friends, was beat up by a girl, and couldn't even leave his house without being afraid. His family was so hated by the neighborhood that they moved shortly after that. There was no Bible or religious understanding, it was just the laws of human behavior.

You ask: "So the question comes down to this: what is the basis for your rules, for your blasphemies, for your moralities?"

Answer: Survival and being successful based on human behavior.

I worship God because I want to, I love him. I follow rules of not stealing, lying, cheating, and murdering because I believe that they are in the best interests of myself and society. I do nice things for people because it makes me feel good to so and helps me when they do nice things for me. However, I would lie if Nazi's came to my door and asked if I had any Jews in my house and I did. I would steal a weapon from a murderer or someone if I believed the person was going to use it to murder or in the commission of a crime against humanity. I would murder Hitler, Pol Pot, or Stalin given the chance knowing what I know now. If I go to hell because it is written in a book not to murder, lie, or steal, that would asinine.

Donovan J Arnold.

>To: "Ted Moffett" , "Donovan Arnold" , thansen@moscow.com

>CC: "vision2020"
>Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Religious Diversity Education
>Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2003 22:16:24 -0700
>
>Mr. Moffet:
>
>
> > You and I can disagree on many issues, yet we can live together in peace.
> > In fact, I can be an atheist, and you can follow the Bible, and if we
>agree
> > that murder, theft, fraud and violence are not good for society, we can
>get
> > along just fine, unless one of us starts insisting that the other one must
> > follow their beliefs down to the last detail, or they are doomed to hell,
> > from the bible believer's point of view, or doomed to dogmatic
>superstitious
> > nonsense, from the atheist's point of view.
>
> That is not quite true. If you are a logical and consistent atheist, you
>have no reason to abstain from murder; there is no punishment anyway. You
>have no reason to abstain from theft; so long as no one catches you, a
>little money on the side can really be nice. You have no reason to keep from
>fraud; in a court case, someone might shove over a little dough to keep you
>quiet, so why not take it? You don't need to be non-violent; there is no
>consequence.
> However, a true Christian has biblical reasons, moral imperatives to not
>do any of these things. You don't murder 1) because of the 10 commandments,
>and 2) because man was created in the image of God. You don't steal because
>of the 10 commandments. You don't have anything to do with fraud for the
>same reason. You avoid violence because God says that He hates violent men.
>
>
> > derived from realizing that the ultimate truth may be beyond anyone's
> > understanding, is not what creates evil in our world. Much of the evil
> > comes from people who think they have the ultimate truth which gives them
> > the right to violently impose this on other people, and kill or imprison
> > them if they do not agree.
>
> Evil comes not from a man's surroundings, but from his heart. You want
>to see evidence of this? Watch a little kid, perhaps with a younger brother.
>He doesn't have to be told how to hit his little brother, or how to take
>away his toy, or how to lie about it afterward. No child must be taught how
>to be selfish, how to be mean. He does those things automatically; it's part
>of his nature. It doesn't wait to come out until he has grown old enough to
>comprehend religions.
>
>
> > that taught them to respect other religious points of view, and to be
>humble
> > about asserting that their religion had to be the only true religion,
>would
> > they have been as likely to carry out the 9/11 attacks?
>
> Yes, I think so, because the image that Muslims, tolerant or not, in the
>Middle East have of America is one of big, bad Christians who behind the
>scenes have a wicked culture (for example, porn, crime, and making movies
>full of immorality, full of nudity, full of all kinds of evil.) Even if they
>are taught to be unsure of their religion, they would still think of America
>as a hated enemy.
>
>In regard to your desire to accept every religion:
> Every culture, no matter how tolerant it claims to be, has a form of
>blasphemy, an object of hate. For example, if I asked the average American
>whether we should become Nazi's, and find a new Hitler, the answer would be
>NO WAY! Our culture and history declare Nazism to be a fell evil.
> One of the idols that American culture today has is feminism. Regardless
>of my arguments, if I spoke out on this forum against women in government,
>women in leadership positions, or women in the military, I would immediately
>be jumped upon by 50 people at once. It wouldn't matter if I argued well, or
>if you claimed to be tolerant of other people's ways of viewing the world.
>And the same thing goes for homosexuality. Even you, in all your
>relativistic, tolerant truths, have beliefs and ideals that you would indeed
>claim intolerant, absolute truth on.
> So the question comes down to this: what is the basis for your rules,
>for your blasphemies, for your moralities?
>
>Sincerely,
>Luke Nieuwsma
>
>

Tired of spam? Get advanced junk mail protection with MSN 8. From donovanarnold@hotmail.com Wed Jun 25 13:19:31 2003 From: donovanarnold@hotmail.com (Donovan Arnold) Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2003 05:19:31 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] Re: Kempthorne Message-ID:

Amber and Sandra,

Actually, the EPA can only enforce the laws that already exist. Kempthorne can only do what the laws allow and President allows. Which means that all that position does is act out the will of the President, which could be anyone. Furthermore, the Governor of Idaho has only as much control in Idaho as the EPA. I don't think Kempthorne will actually do ANYTHING, he doesn't done much as governor, or as senator, what makes you think he will do anything now?

I don't think he would be in office for long anyway. I don't think Bush will be reelected. Maybe that is just wishful thinking but if Bush is reelected we won't have an environment to protect by 2009 anyway. Would we?

I think we are better off getting rid of Kempthorne asap, and then worry about getting him out of the position of EPA later.

Donovan J Arnold

>From: "aphro dite"
>Reply-To: aphro@angelfire.com
>To: vision2020@moscow.com
>Subject: [Vision2020] Re: Kempthorne
>Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2003 17:47:14 -0700
>
> Kempthorne leaving Idaho good?
>Do you realize how much MORE damage he can do (especially in Idaho) as head of the EPA?
>Dear Mother Earth, I am so sorry!
>
>-Amber Montgomery
>
>
>
>____________________________________________________________
>Get 25MB of email storage with Lycos Mail Plus!
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>_____________________________________________________
> List services made available by First Step Internet,
> serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
> http://www.fsr.net
> mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com
>ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ

Add photos to your e-mail with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. From escape@alt-escape.com Wed Jun 25 17:11:26 2003 From: escape@alt-escape.com (Bob Hoffmann) Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2003 09:11:26 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] Email and Libel In-Reply-To: References: <5.2.1.1.0.20030624175046.024fdc18@mail.turbonet.com> Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.2.20030625085844.02d0ce30@mail.turbonet.com> At 06:25 PM 6/24/2003 -0700, Tom Hansen wrote: >"Libel: Published words or pictures that falsely and maliciously defame a >person. Libel is published defamation; slander is spoken. >Defamation: That which tends to injure a persons reputation. Libel is >published defamation, whereas slander is spoken. " I'm not a lawyer, but here's my understanding of the matter. To sustain this charge in court, you must prove: 1. The defendant knew that the statements were false (whereas the defendant in this case could probably get off with a credible insanity defense) 2. The statements were believed by the public (no sign of that here), and 3. The statements resulted in some injury, damage, or loss to the maligned party (again, no sign of that here). Of course, to sue, it helps if the defendant has property or income, and is not, as is the case at hand, a vagrant. Bob Hoffmann 820 S. Logan St. Moscow, ID 83843 Tel: 208 883-0642 From tomh@FNA.fsn.uidaho.edu Wed Jun 25 17:30:31 2003 From: tomh@FNA.fsn.uidaho.edu (Thomas Hansen) Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2003 09:30:31 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] Email and Libel Message-ID: <165F697BE456F14EA4529F6B7BB6D4FC1F6FA7@daffy.dfm.uidaho.edu> Mr. Hoffman: I did not make that statement that you credited to me. I was quoting another subscriber and rebutting his statement. Suggest that you ensure that your qotes and credits are more accurate, ok? Thank you, Tom Hansen -----Original Message----- From: Bob Hoffmann [mailto:escape@alt-escape.com] Sent: Wednesday, June 25, 2003 9:11 AM To: vision2020@moscow.com Subject: RE: [Vision2020] Email and Libel At 06:25 PM 6/24/2003 -0700, Tom Hansen wrote: >"Libel: Published words or pictures that falsely and maliciously defame a >person. Libel is published defamation; slander is spoken. >Defamation: That which tends to injure a persons reputation. Libel is >published defamation, whereas slander is spoken. " I'm not a lawyer, but here's my understanding of the matter. To sustain this charge in court, you must prove: 1. The defendant knew that the statements were false (whereas the defendant in this case could probably get off with a credible insanity defense) 2. The statements were believed by the public (no sign of that here), and 3. The statements resulted in some injury, damage, or loss to the maligned party (again, no sign of that here). Of course, to sue, it helps if the defendant has property or income, and is not, as is the case at hand, a vagrant. Bob Hoffmann 820 S. Logan St. Moscow, ID 83843 Tel: 208 883-0642 _____________________________________________________ List services made available by First Step Internet, serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994. http://www.fsr.net mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ From escape@alt-escape.com Wed Jun 25 18:08:33 2003 From: escape@alt-escape.com (Bob Hoffmann) Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2003 10:08:33 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] Email and Libel In-Reply-To: <165F697BE456F14EA4529F6B7BB6D4FC1F6FA7@daffy.dfm.uidaho.ed u> Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.2.20030625094427.02e8b7f8@mail.turbonet.com> Tom, Please accept my sincere apologies. The error was not a nefarious attempt to pin some dastardly words on you, but simply a by-product of technology, whereby you "quoted" someone and I "quoted" you "quoting" someone. The important thing in my message was the definition, and not whether you, or Doug Wilson, or Bill London, or Tony Blair supplied the definition. In fact, since it was a dictionary definition, I'd bet everyone was clear that it wasn't a direct quote from anyone on the list. But I'm not certain why I am responding to this. Obviously, you didn't address your comments to me, but to someone who merely spells his name similarly to my name. Or am I being petty with this remark? Please, someone teach me by example not to be petty. Thanks, Bob Hoffmann At 09:30 AM 6/25/2003 -0700, Thomas Hansen wrote: >Mr. Hoffman: > >I did not make that statement that you credited to me. I was quoting >another subscriber and rebutting his statement. Suggest that you ensure >that your qotes and credits are more accurate, ok? > >Thank you, > >Tom Hansen > >-----Original Message----- >From: Bob Hoffmann [mailto:escape@alt-escape.com] >Sent: Wednesday, June 25, 2003 9:11 AM >To: vision2020@moscow.com >Subject: RE: [Vision2020] Email and Libel > > >At 06:25 PM 6/24/2003 -0700, Tom Hansen wrote: > >"Libel: Published words or pictures that falsely and maliciously defame a > >person. Libel is published defamation; slander is spoken. > >Defamation: That which tends to injure a persons reputation. Libel is > >published defamation, whereas slander is spoken. " > >I'm not a lawyer, but here's my understanding of the matter. > >To sustain this charge in court, you must prove: > >1. The defendant knew that the statements were false (whereas the defendant >in this case could probably get off with a credible insanity defense) >2. The statements were believed by the public (no sign of that here), and >3. The statements resulted in some injury, damage, or loss to the maligned >party (again, no sign of that here). > >Of course, to sue, it helps if the defendant has property or income, and is >not, as is the case at hand, a vagrant. > > >Bob Hoffmann >820 S. Logan St. >Moscow, ID 83843 > >Tel: 208 883-0642 > >_____________________________________________________ > List services made available by First Step Internet, > serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994. > http://www.fsr.net > mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com >ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ > >_____________________________________________________ > List services made available by First Step Internet, > serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994. > http://www.fsr.net > mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com >ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ 820 S. Logan St. Moscow, ID 83843 Tel: 208 883-0642 From scooke@uidaho.edu Wed Jun 25 18:55:45 2003 From: scooke@uidaho.edu (Stephen Cooke) Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2003 10:55:45 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] Policy Uses of Economic Multipliers Message-ID: FYI Steve Cooke Policy Uses of Economic Multiplier and Impact Analysis Following a broad checklist of concerns and issues ensures more effective use of economic and impact analysis in policy deliberations. By David W. Hughes http://www.choicesmagazine.org/current/2003-2-06.htm From vision2020@moscow.com Wed Jun 25 19:19:39 2003 From: vision2020@moscow.com (vision2020@moscow.com) Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2003 11:19:39 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] Latah County Zoning Commission Message-ID: <001501c33b46$5a950150$3464000a@latah.id.us> The Latah County Zoning Commission will not meet Wednesday, July 2, 2003. http://www.latah.id.us/Comm/PlanZone_Main.htm From dkaag@turbonet.com Wed Jun 25 19:38:10 2003 From: dkaag@turbonet.com (Don Kaag) Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2003 11:38:10 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] High-stakes testing... Message-ID: <2BC33338-A73C-11D7-B69D-000393B120B6@turbonet.com> Saundra: I can't speak for anyone but myself on testing and the time it takes, but for what it's worth, here's the opinion of a local public high school teacher. "Nickelby" (The Federal No Child Left Behind Act) pretty much requires states to put comprehensive progress and exiting tests in place, or risk losing federal funding. Which is how the Feds get the Department of Education's nose under the state and local educational tent, responsibility and control of education being something notionally left at the state and local level by the Founding Founders. The tiny-minded solons at our beloved "Idaho Ledge" are also into the act, with mandated state testing in primary, junior high and high school, and high stakes exit testing on the edge of being mandatory for graduation from high school. They are also into putting teachers and schools on notice that if there isn't measurable improvement both overall and as individual students progress through the public school system, both schools and teachers will be penalized. Here's what I think. We work in a bureaucratized system that desperately needs something to quantify. You can quantify objective test results. But that does not really indicate that education is taking place so much as it indicates fact memorization and acquisition of test-taking skills. There is a body of essential facts in each academic discipline that kids have to know in order to be minimally competent, granted, but the most important skills they need to acquire are how to learn, how to reason, how to take disparate discrete facts and synthesize them into coherent theories and integrated ideas, how to research effectively and write persuasively and formally in their base languagein all of their classes, not just in English. These things are much more slippery than facts to objectively test. And, as the Romans said, "Custodet Quis Custodiet"("Who Will Watch the Watchers?")... who writes the tests, who determines what they measure, and if they are culture-fair and balanced, and who interprets the results? Under "Nicklelby" and the current state requirements, teachers and schools will be unfairly penalized if students fail. Why do I say that? Because teachers and schools are the only third of the three-tiered educational partnership that bureaucrats can affect. The other two-thirds are parental support of education and individual students' willingness and readiness to learn, and neither of those have handles that the system can sanction effectively. The best teacher in the world, competent and professional in their discipline, and motivated to teach kids, can't succeed if the other two factors are absent. But it is teachers who will take the hit if kids fail, because they can be penalized, and the other two facets can't. Don't misunderstand me... I think some kind of exit test is essential to assure that our high school degree is not just a meaningless piece of paper and a "social" sop to politically-correct "feel-gooders" who want to graduate illiterates because it will make them feel good about themselves. But parents and students must be held accountable for failure, too, not just teachers. As for the time required to test, yes, it does take away essential class teaching time from teachers. But honestly, it is a drop in the bucket in terms of the class interruptions we experience on a daily, weekly, monthly and yearly basis. I was frustrated enough with purloined class time last year to sit down and compute how many days I was able to teach my classes uninterrupted during the school year. After itemizing the data from the daily bulletins, which I keep in a loose-leaf binder, the answer was slightly more than half. That counts time cut from my classes for assemblies, releases for sports activities, and other distractors like half or all-day field trips for band, other classes, academic competitions, the one week Arts Fest, etc., but not the constant individual pulling out of students during class for counseling appointments, meetings with administrators, medical and dental appointments, handing out the student newspaper, tech crew prepping the auditorium for assemblies, student government, etc. It also doesn't tally the portions of periods I have to give up to hold student elections, have counselors talk to juniors about their senior year and pre-register for their classes, or anything else anyone can think up that takes my class time. If I sound frustrated, I am. I once asked my principal, "When is the last time we preempted a football game for a History class?" Sports are particularly egregious in the springtime. With kids involved in baseball, softball, golf, track and wrestling and who knows what else all being released early for sports, there have been times in afternoons in the spring when I simply cancelled class for the 4 or 5 students I had left in a section, because attempting to teach anything would be a waste of time. Given that we are in a lightly-populated area of the country, and teams routinely travel to places like Grangeville and Sand Point, the interruptions of the educational process are constant and annoying. It is a wonder that they have time to learn anything at all, given the amount of time I have to teach. Frustratedly yours, Don Kaag From jdanahy@turbonet.com Wed Jun 25 20:39:37 2003 From: jdanahy@turbonet.com (John Danahy) Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2003 12:39:37 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] High-stakes testing... In-Reply-To: <2BC33338-A73C-11D7-B69D-000393B120B6@turbonet.com> Message-ID: <000001c33b51$865234b0$e274e4ce@laurie3zo89bgq> I must say that I agree 100% with Don's comments, and would add from a slightly different point of view. The so called High Stakes Testing are called high stakes because of the don't pass, don't graduate aspect for individual students. Whether or not an individual student graduates from public HS should not be the result of a single or multiple exiting tests. Instead, it is time to forsake the deceptive impressions that have run rampant and realize that these tests are designed to test school districts first, and teachers second; on how well the basic curriculum is being delivered to students. The tests are supposed to measure student acquisition of basic levels of education. A school district where only 40% of 4th graders are proficient readers has a real problem. The test and subsequent tests are supposed to provide the district with the information needed to address the problem, and to see if changes are successful. Instead, districts trumpet that their reading scores beat some national or state average, and everybody should be grateful for the good job being done by the district. Meanwhile, those students who are not proficient continue on, grade after grade, with more and more lacking the basic skills needed to be successful in later grades, finally failing classes, dropping out, and not graduating. But still playing football!!! Moreover, the information provided should also be used to address teacher competency. We all like to think teachers are educational professionals, but unfortunately, not all are. A teacher whose math students fail basic testing, but who are passing the class, may be an indication of a lack of competency. How many more students will be subjected to this class during that teacher's career? I did get a chuckle from Don's descriptive "politically correct 'feel-gooders'," and I am amazed at how many are embedded in the public education system. The idea that it is wrong for a teacher to expect a student to do a homework assignment and turn it in on time; but okay for a student to fail the class and still play football, is an example of how far the lack of accountability in public schools has come. Why should the student bother to do the work, or to hold themselves ready and willing, when the system encourages them not to? Certainly there are damn fine teachers working in our public schools, but they are hamstrung by a bureaucracy that fears accountability. Teachers have been teaching to the test for as long as there have been teachers, and as long as they have had tests. For more that thirty years, the problems associated with the lack of curricular accountability in public schools has been known and debated by society. We have relied on the education professionals to solve the issue. Now we have turned to high stakes testing. Perhaps the education profession ought to take a good look in the mirror when trying to understand why? John jdanahy@turbonet.com ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ From donovanarnold@hotmail.com Wed Jun 25 23:19:57 2003 From: donovanarnold@hotmail.com (Donovan Arnold) Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2003 15:19:57 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] Email and Libel Message-ID:

Bob,
You Stated: 

>"To sustain this charge in court, you must prove:
>
>1. The defendant knew that the statements were false (whereas the
>defendant in this case could probably get off with a credible

>insanity defense)"

There is no insanity defense in the State of Idaho, doesn't exist. 

">2. The statements were believed by the public (no sign of that

>here), and"

It only takes one person to believe it. There is no lack of stupid people on the internet.

">3. The statements resulted in some injury, damage, or loss to the

>maligned party (again, no sign of that here)."

Actually, he accused someone who is in charge of children of using them for sexual purposes. If one parent withdraws or decides not to enlist their child under his care for fear of those charges being even slightly true, this causes him financial damage.

>
>Of course, to sue, it helps if the defendant has property or income,

>and is not, as is the case at hand, a vagrant."

This doesn't matter, you can place a lean against someone on future earnings. This means that if he ever makes money in the future he can never claim it. This guarantees him poverty for most if not all his life.

You also forgot to mention that slander doesn't usually count if it is against a "public" figure, such as a celebrity or elected or appointed public official. Which his accusations are not. We can slam on Clinton, Bush, and Michael Jackson all we want.

Donovan J Arnold

>
>
>Bob Hoffmann
>820 S. Logan St.
>Moscow, ID 83843
>
>Tel: 208 883-0642
>
>_____________________________________________________
>List services made available by First Step Internet, serving the
>communities of the Palouse since 1994.
>http://www.fsr.net
>mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com
>ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ

STOP MORE SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* From stopchristchurch@yahoo.com Thu Jun 26 00:08:44 2003 From: stopchristchurch@yahoo.com (Douglas Stambler) Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2003 16:08:44 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Vision2020] I Will Leave If Someone Gets Me A Ticket Back To Connecticut Message-ID: <20030625230844.66086.qmail@web20508.mail.yahoo.com> --0-740143410-1056582524=:65206 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii I Will Leave If Someone Gets Me A Ticket Back To Connecticut --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! --0-740143410-1056582524=:65206 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii I Will Leave If Someone Gets Me A Ticket Back To Connecticut

Do you Yahoo!?
SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! --0-740143410-1056582524=:65206-- From escape@alt-escape.com Thu Jun 26 00:16:06 2003 From: escape@alt-escape.com (Bob Hoffmann) Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2003 16:16:06 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] Email and Libel In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.2.20030625155538.02d62da8@mail.turbonet.com> Donald, I'm guessing that you're not an attorney. That's OK; I'm not either. But I'll disagree with some of your statements below. At 03:19 PM 6/25/2003 -0700, Donovan Arnold wrote: >Bob, >You Stated: > >"To sustain this charge in court, you must prove: > > > >1. The defendant knew that the statements were false (whereas the > >defendant in this case could probably get off with a credible > > >insanity defense)" > >There is no insanity defense in the State of Idaho, doesn't exist. In a civil trial, I have no doubt that insanity could be used to claim that the defendant could not be held accountable for his statements. >">2. The statements were believed by the public (no sign of that > >here), and" > >It only takes one person to believe it. There is no lack of stupid people >on the internet. Again, I'm guessing you're not an attorney, and you presume your (first) statement to be true. I presume your statement to be generally false (see exception below). We are in agreement on the second statement. >">3. The statements resulted in some injury, damage, or loss to the > >maligned party (again, no sign of that here)." > >Actually, he accused someone who is in charge of children of using them >for sexual purposes. If one parent withdraws or decides not to enlist >their child under his care for fear of those charges being even slightly >true, this causes him financial damage. Here you are presumably correct. > >Of course, to sue, it helps if the defendant has property or income, > >and is not, as is the case at hand, a vagrant." > >This doesn't matter, you can place a lean against someone on future >earnings. This means that if he ever makes money in the future he can >never claim it. This guarantees him poverty for most if not all his life. As I said, it helps. Under your scenario, someone would have to pay attorney's fees out of pocket, as there would be no hope for the attorney to recover expenses within a reasonable period of time. Given a judgement, it would also be the plaintiff's obligation to monitor the finances of the defendant. >You also forgot to mention that slander doesn't usually count if it is >against a "public" figure, such as a celebrity or elected or appointed >public official. Which his accusations are not. We can slam on Clinton, >Bush, and Michael Jackson all we want. Wrong here as well. Typically, the stature of the figure has to be evaluated against the forum in which the statements were made. The statements in question were not made on national television; they were made on a local list serve, where a local preacher has made himself a very public figure. And I assure you and him that the allegations will not likely be repeated on CNN, ABC, or MTV. I'll make a prophecy. No lawsuit will result from these utterances. No money will be collected. And if I am correct, then I will have a perfect record of prophecies, which will put me far ahead of the Rambler in question. I also hereby issue the prophecy that the madman will continue ranting, will never gather more than one disciple at a stretch, will establish no credibility in this community, will continue to make false and misleading accusations, will continue to claim that he has a direct line from God, will continue to lie to the uninitiated to obtain favors, accommodations, and sustenance, and will continue to jerk people's chains online and off, until he is fully ignored and seeks another community where he can garner attention. Or until someone buys him a ticket to Connecticut. Bob Hoffmann 820 S. Logan St. Moscow, ID 83843 Tel: 208 883-0642 From dale@courtneys.us Thu Jun 26 00:17:38 2003 From: dale@courtneys.us (Dale Courtney) Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2003 16:17:38 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] Usenet USA Libel Suit? References: Message-ID: <006401c33b6f$f828fbf0$0bb27883@DMCLAPTOP2> Ted wrote: > Please do provide a court case within the USA where libel in a Usenet forum > has been successfully pursued. I have seen very abusive content on Usenet > newsgroups yet have yet to hear of a successful libel suit. There are three cases of interest: -Cubby, Inc. vs. CompuServe Inc., 776 F.Supp. 135(S.D.N.Y. 1991) -Stratton Oakmont vs. Prodigy (1995) -Zeran vs. America Online (1996) You can read about these and subsequent cases over at: http://cse.stanford.edu/class/cs201/Projects/defamation-and-the-internet/sections/precedent/cases.html What you are *really* interested in is the liability of ISPs. See: http://cse.stanford.edu/class/cs201/Projects/defamation-and-the-internet/sections/liability/index.html Bottom line: 1. Common Carriers -- like the telephone companies. These are not liable for what is said/published. 2. Publishers -- like the Daily News. These *are* liable for what is published. 3. Distributors -- like a news stand. These are *not* liable *until they are aware that libelous material is in their distribution*. In the case of Cubby, Inc. vs. CompuServe Inc. {776 F.Supp. 135(S.D.N.Y. 1991)}, Compuserv was found not liable becuase they were unaware of the content. *However*, the judge ruled that Compuserv *would* have been liable *if* they had been made aware and had *not* acted upon it. My understanding -- FSR, as a *distributor* is liable for all libelous material once they have been made aware of it. The correct course of action is to delete it from the Vision2020 archives (as has been done in the past). I'm not a lawyer, but that's my understanding from reading the case laws that are out there. Best, Dale Courtney Moscow, Idaho From aphro@angelfire.com Thu Jun 26 00:27:54 2003 From: aphro@angelfire.com (aphro dite) Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2003 16:27:54 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] Re: free speech Message-ID: Ted, I do not feel discussion of religion is inappropriate here at all. My point was that SO MUCH TIME is focused on this one topic, when topics with more direct impact relevance are passed by or even ignored. Perhaps its just my own interests... Not saying anyone should stop writing what they are now, just saying I think just as fruitful debate could/should also be spent on other topics. :) Amber ____________________________________________________________ Get 25MB of email storage with Lycos Mail Plus! Sign up today -- http://www.mail.lycos.com/brandPage.shtml?pageId=plus From sprinkley_2000@yahoo.com Thu Jun 26 00:38:38 2003 From: sprinkley_2000@yahoo.com (sprinkley) Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2003 16:38:38 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Vision2020] Update on World AIDS Day Community Planning Meeting Message-ID: <20030625233838.3274.qmail@web14202.mail.yahoo.com> World AIDS Day Planning Committee Meeting June 19, 2003 7:00 pm – 8:00 pm Agenda: · Introductions-Brad, Amy, Spring, Jeff, Jonny, and Jim in attendance · Reminder: World AIDS Day is Monday, December 1st. Discussion for events are estimated for the 4, 5, and 6th because on the 1st people will be coming back from Thanksgiving break. · World AIDS Day theme-see http://www.unaids.org/wac/2002/index_en.html · Quick review on previous meetings-Attempting to recruit more people for meetings, trying to get Quilt to area, seeking location for Quilt, seeking funding for Quilt and events, on table is where should any funds raised go, ice skating as fund raiser, etc. · Brad bought web page to be used for World AIDS Day information/advertising at last meeting. What do we want on it????-page is palouseaids.org. Jeff has friend Brad who might be willing to work on web page (note Jeff has emailed to say that Brad will definitely work on web page). Things we want on it: Date of World AIDS Day, topics, agendas, ideas, things to get people to come to meetings and World AIDS Day events, Letter to people, email, phone, links to programs such as Ryan White, IDWA, Stonewall, PRIDE, Health Departments, link to Face to Face (pftf.com), HIV is not a gay issue but an issue that effects everyone, etc. · Update information on World AIDS Day Quilt in regards to speaking with RPC: RPC money will be going to Face to Face. We will need to raise money for Quilt, talk to IDWA, or find another funding source. · Update fairground rental information: Brad and Spring went to fairgrounds in Moscow to attempt to reserve space for Quilt. Ran into problem with person who runs grounds. She said all halls were reserved, but when looking at reservation book all dates were completely open. The woman would not work with us. Decision in meeting was to form subcommittee of Spring, Brad, Jonny to write letter to give to locations by referral of Jeff. · Project Face-to-Face update-Watched video presented by Amy. Group very excited about program coming. Please see pftf.com for more details. Amy will be making a copy of the tape to give to Spring for those interested. The project will be on display starting on World AIDS Day, Dec. 1st. The artist will come to town a week early to make a cast of local citizen’s face who is HIV positive. Group is asked for any outreach ideas to bring to next meeting. · Note for later discussion: Fundraising brainstorm, Where to donate raised money and other donations, advertising, etc. · Open: Amy said she would check 1912 building and locations on UI campus for possible spots for Quilt. Spring will send Amy information on Quilt requirements. Jeff will research non-profit status for program (just to know what requirements are, not that we are necessarily doing). Discussed possiblities of billboard and banners discussing World AIDS Day. · On Agenda for Next Meeting: Quilt, Location for Quilt, Non-profit status, Decision on How Committee Will Be Organized, etc. Please email with other agenda items. Next month’s meeting date and time Tuesday, July 15th at noon. Location will be WSU’s CUB room 232. Room reserved under WSU’s GLBTA program Email Agenda Items to stonewall@moscow.com or call 883-3438 Spring Dowse Stonewall Health Project Coordinator 627 N. Van Buren Moscow, Idaho 83843 (208) 883-3438 stonewall@moscow.com __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! http://sbc.yahoo.com From dale@courtneys.us Thu Jun 26 00:43:55 2003 From: dale@courtneys.us (Dale Courtney) Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2003 16:43:55 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] Killing Homeschooling in Idaho References: <009e01c33b70$88badf30$0bb27883@DMCLAPTOP2> Message-ID: <00f601c33b73$a405b0a0$0bb27883@DMCLAPTOP2> Don wrote: > I would tend to think that you would think this is a GOOD thing. If a child > who stays at home is not even meeting the minimum standards of a grade level > that you think is very low, why should a child stay in an environment that > gives him/her no advantages? Do you not care about the quality of education > a child is receiving? Don, I'm an educator and have been for the last 16 years. I *do* care about the quality of education. That's why I think it only fair that the same standard that's trying to be foistered upon homeschoolers (of which I am *not* one) should be applied to government schools. If a government school child also performs below the standard, then the parents should be given a voucher/tax incentive to send that child to a school where they can accel. The principle is called parity: what's good for the goose is good for the gander. Best, Dale Courtney Moscow, Idaho From thansen@moscow.com Thu Jun 26 00:51:18 2003 From: thansen@moscow.com (Tom Hansen) Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2003 16:51:18 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] I Will Leave If Someone Gets Me A Ticket Back To Connecticut In-Reply-To: <20030625230844.66086.qmail@web20508.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0028_01C33B39.FF989430 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I recommend Neely Travel Service on Main Street. If any of them subscribe to this listserve (and have read some of your postings), they might even offer you a discount. Bye, Tom Hansen -----Original Message----- From: vision2020-admin@moscow.com [mailto:vision2020-admin@moscow.com]On Behalf Of Douglas Stambler Sent: Wednesday, June 25, 2003 4:09 PM To: vision2020@moscow.com Subject: [Vision2020] I Will Leave If Someone Gets Me A Ticket Back To Connecticut I Will Leave If Someone Gets Me A Ticket Back To Connecticut ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- Do you Yahoo!? SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! ------=_NextPart_000_0028_01C33B39.FF989430 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I = recommend Neely=20 Travel Service on Main Street.  If any of them subscribe to this = listserve=20 (and have read some of your postings), they might even offer you a=20 discount.
 
Bye,
 
Tom = Hansen
 
-----Original Message-----
From: = vision2020-admin@moscow.com=20 [mailto:vision2020-admin@moscow.com]On Behalf Of Douglas=20 Stambler
Sent: Wednesday, June 25, 2003 4:09 = PM
To:=20 vision2020@moscow.com
Subject: [Vision2020] I Will Leave If = Someone=20 Gets Me A Ticket Back To Connecticut

I Will Leave = If=20 Someone Gets Me A Ticket Back To Connecticut=20

Do you Yahoo!?
SBC=20 Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! ------=_NextPart_000_0028_01C33B39.FF989430-- From dale@courtneys.us Thu Jun 26 00:50:27 2003 From: dale@courtneys.us (Dale Courtney) Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2003 16:50:27 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] Re: enough... MSD Pay and Tenure References: Message-ID: <010e01c33b74$8d9bd0f0$0bb27883@DMCLAPTOP2> Ted wrote: > I think there are numerous issues that render legal action against First > Step for V2020 content problematic. > > 1) All content is sent to private computer accounts when posted via a > non-commercial discussion group, not presented in public like a newspaper on > the newsstands, or even on a commercial web site making money off the > content where the site is intended for view by any and all people with a > huge audience. Except that it is hosted on a publically available website: http://lists2.fsr.net/pipermail/vision2020/ > 2) The account holders voluntarily choose to receive the content, and can > stop the content at any time. No one should be surprised by what may be > posted on a free public discussion group where content is offered freely by > individuals. Except that it is hosted on a publically available website: http://lists2.fsr.net/pipermail/vision2020/ > 3) A person who goes to the V2020 archives on the web must go through > numerous steps to read the content, that is presented with no pretension > from First Step that they are providing pre-screened factual news or > information. Not true. An Altavista search will send you directly to content in the archive. For example, my posts on MSD: http://www.altavista.com/web/results?pg=aq&avkw=xytx&filetype=&aqmode=b&aqb=courtney+near+vision2020+near+MSD&aqs=&kgs=0&kls=1 > 4) V2020 is NOT moderated! I'm not sure why you mentioned Bill London as a > "moderator." The list doesn't need to be moderated for the "distributor" to be libelous. > 5) If a web site can be sued and shut down for libel for content offered > freely by individuals in a discussion format, Google would be shut down NOW, > because Google hosts Usenet newsgroups, where you can find the most > astonishing lies and profanity about any and all subjects and persons, along > with mostly sincere and honest offerings, posted freely by individuals on > Usenet. Vision2020 is similar to a Usenet newsgroup in some respects That's why Yahoo! Groups has moderators who are responsible for libelous content. Best, Dale Courtney Moscow, Idaho From dale@courtneys.us Thu Jun 26 00:53:43 2003 From: dale@courtneys.us (Dale Courtney) Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2003 16:53:43 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] Re: enough... MSD Pay and Tenure References: Message-ID: <011c01c33b75$02493370$0bb27883@DMCLAPTOP2> Ted wrote: > BTW, I carefully read your analysis of MSD teacher pay, promotion process, > tenure award, etc. He's talking about: http://courtneys.us/MSD/Teacher_Salaries.htm > I agree that it appears from what you presented that > public school teachers should not be offered tenure so quickly, and pay > raises should be more tied to performance. Oh, there was a *lot* more there than just that! That's the tip of the iceberg. The bottom line: backers of the levies have been screaming that MSD teachers are underpaid; and that we need to raise their salaries to benefit the kids. That's a bunch of hooey. The teachers are paid about 3 times what the average Idahoian makes! I will agree that the teacher salary grid provides an incentive for disfunctional outcomes -- and that's what we see in spades. Best, Dale Courtney Moscow, Idaho From stopchristchurch@yahoo.com Thu Jun 26 00:54:57 2003 From: stopchristchurch@yahoo.com (Douglas Stambler) Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2003 16:54:57 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Vision2020] Am I Mentally Ill, Or Not? I Will Accept An Evaluation By A Local Doctor - thank you In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030625235457.57755.qmail@web20502.mail.yahoo.com> --0-1385701646-1056585297=:57706 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii i have no money, tom, no one will hire me because doug wilson has claimed that i'm mentally ill. that's why i'm forced to ask for a ticket if all of you really want me to leave. In Christ, Douglas Stambler Tom Hansen wrote: I recommend Neely Travel Service on Main Street. If any of them subscribe to this listserve (and have read some of your postings), they might even offer you a discount. Bye, Tom Hansen -----Original Message----- From: vision2020-admin@moscow.com [mailto:vision2020-admin@moscow.com]On Behalf Of Douglas Stambler Sent: Wednesday, June 25, 2003 4:09 PM To: vision2020@moscow.com Subject: [Vision2020] I Will Leave If Someone Gets Me A Ticket Back To Connecticut I Will Leave If Someone Gets Me A Ticket Back To Connecticut --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! --0-1385701646-1056585297=:57706 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
i have no money, tom, no one will hire me because doug wilson has claimed that i'm mentally ill.  that's why i'm forced to ask for a ticket if all of you really want me to leave.
 
In Christ,
Douglas Stambler

Tom Hansen <thansen@moscow.com> wrote:
I recommend Neely Travel Service on Main Street.  If any of them subscribe to this listserve (and have read some of your postings), they might even offer you a discount.
 
Bye,
 
Tom Hansen
 
-----Original Message-----
From: vision2020-admin@moscow.com [mailto:vision2020-admin@moscow.com]On Behalf Of Douglas Stambler
Sent: Wednesday, June 25, 2003 4:09 PM
To: vision2020@moscow.com
Subject: [Vision2020] I Will Leave If Someone Gets Me A Ticket Back To Connecticut

I Will Leave If Someone Gets Me A Ticket Back To Connecticut

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SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month!

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SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! --0-1385701646-1056585297=:57706-- From thansen@moscow.com Thu Jun 26 00:59:22 2003 From: thansen@moscow.com (Tom Hansen) Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2003 16:59:22 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] Re: enough... MSD Pay and Tenure In-Reply-To: <010e01c33b74$8d9bd0f0$0bb27883@DMCLAPTOP2> Message-ID: Mr. Courtney- Your claim that " . . . it is hosted on a publically available website" strengthens my belief that Doug Wilson can pursue civil litigation for libel/slander against Stambler since one of the requirements, posted earlier, was that the libelous/slanderous comments be made available publicly. Tom Hansen Moscow From stopchristchurch@yahoo.com Thu Jun 26 01:04:42 2003 From: stopchristchurch@yahoo.com (Douglas Stambler) Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2003 17:04:42 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Vision2020] a reach out to you Message-ID: <20030626000442.90386.qmail@web20510.mail.yahoo.com> --0-271471448-1056585882=:89155 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii wayne (fox): here's a sum up of my religious beliefs - 1) Mormons are Christians; 2) The Book of Mormon is God's prophetic word to Americans; 3) I have no intention of joining the Mormon Church; 4) and, I believe myself to be a prophet, a Seer, actually. anyway, i'm writing this to you, because the notion that i'm mentally ill came from Jim and Doug Wilson, who objected to the way i spoke and the things i have said about myself and Christianity and the way God works in the world. but last time i checked, we're all entitled to our own religious beliefs and personal convictions without having to be labeled as mentally ill. i'm not mentally ill: i'm not depressed; i'm not manic; i'm not sucidal or homicidal; i have no chemical imbalance in my brain. but i am outspoken and my religious beliefs are radically different from others. so, i'm writing to you to tell you that it's your time to reach out to Christ, Wayne. Christians are not mentally ill. we're different from agnostics, but i tell you, Wayne, God is real, and wants us to follow Christ. anyway, just thought i'd reach out to you. God Bless You. In Christ, Douglas Stambler --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! --0-271471448-1056585882=:89155 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
wayne (fox):
 
here's a sum up of my religious beliefs - 1) Mormons are Christians; 2) The Book of Mormon is God's prophetic word to Americans; 3) I have no intention of joining the Mormon Church; 4) and, I believe myself to be a prophet, a Seer, actually.
 
anyway, i'm writing this to you, because the notion that i'm mentally ill came from Jim and Doug Wilson, who objected to the way i spoke and the things i have said about myself and Christianity and the way God works in the world.  but last time i checked, we're all entitled to our own religious beliefs and personal convictions without having to be labeled as mentally ill.  i'm not mentally ill: i'm not depressed; i'm not manic; i'm not sucidal or homicidal; i have no chemical imbalance in my brain.
 
but i am outspoken and my religious beliefs are radically different from others. 
 
so, i'm writing to you to tell you that it's your time to reach out to Christ, Wayne.  Christians are not mentally ill.  we're different from agnostics, but i tell you, Wayne, God is real, and wants us to follow Christ.
 
anyway, just thought i'd reach out to you. 
 
God Bless You.
 
In Christ,
Douglas Stambler

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SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! --0-271471448-1056585882=:89155-- From stopchristchurch@yahoo.com Thu Jun 26 01:08:13 2003 From: stopchristchurch@yahoo.com (Douglas Stambler) Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2003 17:08:13 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Vision2020] Regarding The Lawsuits Against Christ Church Message-ID: <20030626000813.64083.qmail@web20513.mail.yahoo.com> --0-1859399232-1056586093=:62361 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii I kindly ask the person who asked me to help them with their lawsuit against Christ Church to come forward -in the name of Christ- and tell the forum that I am not making up these charges. I will not violate the confidence you placed in me when you e-mailed me and asked me to help you, but I refuse to take this forum's abuse about me making things up. Please come forward and air your lawsuit out in public. Thank you. In Christ, Dogulas Stambler --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! --0-1859399232-1056586093=:62361 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
I kindly ask the person who asked me to help them with their lawsuit against Christ Church to come forward -in the name of Christ- and tell the forum that I am not making up these charges.  I will not violate the confidence you placed in me when you e-mailed me and asked me to help you, but I refuse to take this forum's abuse about me making things up.  Please come forward and air your lawsuit out in public.
 
Thank you.
 
In Christ,
Dogulas Stambler

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You know folks,

At first, I despised Stambler. Now I just feel sorry for him. It is clear he is mentally ill and needs help. He has no friends, no family, and no ability to get hired, much less maintain a job. His statements that he is "the smartest guy around" a future "President of the United States" a "Prophet" and a "Sheer" is only part of the evidence of his mental delusions of self grandeur. It is sad that someone has to believe this about themselves to think they are worth something.

Making such statements about oneself in a public forum is a sure sign of mental disorder. I think Douglas needs serious professional help. Is there anyone on Vision2020 that knows how Douglas can use government services to give him the help that he needs? I think this would be of better use then giving him a ticket to Connecticut where he will continue to damage himself and others with mental delusions and false statements about others.

I don't mean to sound like a bleeding heart liberal here, but really, if someone had a physical ailment, would we ignore and mistreat them? So what is the difference between an outside disability and internal one? A brain can be just as dysfunctional as an outside appendage. Clearly Douglas does not think he is mentally ill. However, how many people do that are?

Donovan J Arnold

>From: Douglas Stambler
>To: vision2020@moscow.com
>Subject: [Vision2020] Regarding The Lawsuits Against Christ Church
>Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2003 17:08:13 -0700 (PDT)
>
>I kindly ask the person who asked me to help them with their lawsuit against Christ Church to come forward -in the name of Christ- and tell the forum that I am not making up these charges. I will not violate the confidence you placed in me when you e-mailed me and asked me to help you, but I refuse to take this forum's abuse about me making things up. Please come forward and air your lawsuit out in public.
>
>Thank you.
>
>In Christ,
>Dogulas Stambler
>
>
>---------------------------------
>Do you Yahoo!?
>SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month!

MSN 8 helps ELIMINATE E-MAIL VIRUSES. Get 2 months FREE*. From ted_moffett@hotmail.com Thu Jun 26 01:52:17 2003 From: ted_moffett@hotmail.com (Ted Moffett) Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2003 00:52:17 +0000 Subject: [Vision2020] Usenet USA Libel Suit? Message-ID: Dale et. al. So according to the facts you presented, First Step cannot be sued for the appearance of libelous material via V2020 if they are made aware of it and the material is removed from the archives. Of course the damage to reputation and livelihood may have already occurred, so basically First Step is still off the hook for this damage. This was my point about ISPs being immune from libel suit. The person who posted the libelous material on V2020 might be held legally accountable though. All First Step must do is remove the material from the archives, and no suit against them proceeds, though actionable libelous material might have been distributed via V2020. This was my understanding. Therefore a lawsuit against First Step will not prevent anyone from continuing to post potentially liable material, and First Step has no obligation to prevent potentially libelous material from being distributed, only to remove it from the archives once they are made aware of it. Perhaps if someone took out an ad in the Daily News, and informed V2020 also on the list, and directly to First Step management, that they were going to post on V2020 scandalous lies etc. about someone whose reputation and livelihood would be likely damaged by the distribution of this info. And if they also gave the e-mail address and name under which they were going to register with V2020, would First Step then have a legal obligation to block this libelous material from appearing via V2020? For 100 dollars an hour you can have a lawyer answer this question. To expect local lawyers to give out free legal advice on V2020 is be an idealist of the most extreme kind. Ha! I believe some thought that First Step had a before the fact legal obligation to prevent potentially libelous material from being distributed via V2020, which in fact I think they do not, unless the unusual example I gave, or one like it, applies. Thanks for your info. Ted >From: "Dale Courtney" >To: >Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Usenet USA Libel Suit? >Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2003 16:17:38 -0700 > >Ted wrote: > > Please do provide a court case within the USA where libel in a Usenet >forum > > has been successfully pursued. I have seen very abusive content on >Usenet > > newsgroups yet have yet to hear of a successful libel suit. > >There are three cases of interest: >-Cubby, Inc. vs. CompuServe Inc., 776 F.Supp. 135(S.D.N.Y. 1991) >-Stratton Oakmont vs. Prodigy (1995) >-Zeran vs. America Online (1996) > >You can read about these and subsequent cases over at: >http://cse.stanford.edu/class/cs201/Projects/defamation-and-the-internet/sections/precedent/cases.html > >What you are *really* interested in is the liability of ISPs. See: >http://cse.stanford.edu/class/cs201/Projects/defamation-and-the-internet/sections/liability/index.html > >Bottom line: >1. Common Carriers -- like the telephone companies. These are not liable >for >what is said/published. >2. Publishers -- like the Daily News. These *are* liable for what is >published. >3. Distributors -- like a news stand. These are *not* liable *until they >are >aware that libelous material is in their distribution*. > >In the case of Cubby, Inc. vs. CompuServe Inc. {776 F.Supp. 135(S.D.N.Y. >1991)}, Compuserv was found not liable becuase they were unaware of the >content. *However*, the judge ruled that Compuserv *would* have been liable >*if* they had been made aware and had *not* acted upon it. > >My understanding -- FSR, as a *distributor* is liable for all libelous >material once they have been made aware of it. The correct course of action >is to delete it from the Vision2020 archives (as has been done in the >past). > >I'm not a lawyer, but that's my understanding from reading the case laws >that are out there. > >Best, >Dale Courtney >Moscow, Idaho > >_____________________________________________________ > List services made available by First Step Internet, > serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994. > http://www.fsr.net > mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com >ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ _________________________________________________________________ STOP MORE SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From stopchristchurch@yahoo.com Thu Jun 26 01:52:32 2003 From: stopchristchurch@yahoo.com (Douglas Stambler) Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2003 17:52:32 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Vision2020] response to donovan arnold In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030626005232.80140.qmail@web20504.mail.yahoo.com> --0-1494643024-1056588752=:80092 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Donovan: What is the clinical definition of "mental illness?" And weren't many slanderous things also said about Joseph Smith (a founder of the Mormon Church), and aren't there still slanderous remarks made about Mormons today? My assertion that I am head prophet of the world is rooted in the Mormon tradition - a man by the name of Gordon B. Hinckley is the current head prophet of the Church - and Mormons believe that their church is the true church in all of the world. So, that would make Gordon B. Hinckley HEAD prophet of the world's church, right? Yes. If you think that they are delusional, that's your right - they may or MAY NOT be. Should all Mormons check into hospitals just because they believe that their church is the only right church in the world. Please, Donovan, get a grip, you might even try praying to Jesus once in a while for some clarity. Anyway, my claim is that The Book of Mormon has been fulfilled, and that I am the next head prophet in line. Now, just because I don't have a church to back me with this, doesn't mean that I'm mentally ill. When people say that reincarnation is possible, I say that there is no evidence that we are reincarnated: yet, people concoct entire religions from that foolish notion that today I am a human and yesterday I was a cow or a fly. But aren't all religions just a little bit foolish, anyway, Donovan? You have to admit, something's wrong in the world regarding religion...well, I happen to think that I know how to resolve those basic problems with the world's theosophies. If that makes me smarter than anyone around, then fine. I believe that we are in the period referred to in The Book of Revelation (New Testament) as The End Times. And, so I have no interest in putting down roots, when all I see is evidence (concrete evidence) that the universities, churches, places of business, most forms of government, will all be blown from their foundations by a spiritual wind that is blowing through each one of us. I want to be clear on this: I'm NOT EVER trying to start a religion, I'm just trying to get people to bring God into their daily lives, so that we can all live better - but there is so much evil afoot these days, Donovan - and...you're a part of it. In Christ, Douglas Stambler onovan Arnold wrote: You know folks, At first, I despised Stambler. Now I just feel sorry for him. It is clear he is mentally ill and needs help. He has no friends, no family, and no ability to get hired, much less maintain a job. His statements that he is "the smartest guy around" a future "President of the United States" a "Prophet" and a "Sheer" is only part of the evidence of his mental delusions of self grandeur. It is sad that someone has to believe this about themselves to think they are worth something. Making such statements about oneself in a public forum is a sure sign of mental disorder. I think Douglas needs serious professional help. Is there anyone on Vision2020 that knows how Douglas can use government services to give him the help that he needs? I think this would be of better use then giving him a ticket to Connecticut where he will continue to damage himself and others with mental delusions and false statements about others. I don't mean to sound like a bleeding heart liberal here, but really, if someone had a physical ailment, would we ignore and mistreat them? So what is the difference between an outside disability and internal one? A brain can be just as dysfunctional as an outside appendage. Clearly Douglas does not think he is mentally ill. However, how many people do that are? Donovan J Arnold >From: Douglas Stambler >To: vision2020@moscow.com >Subject: [Vision2020] Regarding The Lawsuits Against Christ Church >Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2003 17:08:13 -0700 (PDT) > >I kindly ask the person who asked me to help them with their lawsuit against Christ Church to come forward -in the name of Christ- and tell the forum that I am not making up these charges. I will not violate the confidence you placed in me when you e-mailed me and asked me to help you, but I refuse to take this forum's abuse about me making things up. Please come forward and air your lawsuit out in public. > >Thank you. > >In Christ, >Dogulas Stambler > > >--------------------------------- >Do you Yahoo!? >SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! --------------------------------- MSN 8 helps ELIMINATE E-MAIL VIRUSES. Get 2 months FREE*. --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! --0-1494643024-1056588752=:80092 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
Donovan:
 
What is the clinical definition of "mental illness?"
 
And weren't many slanderous things also said about Joseph Smith (a founder of the Mormon Church), and aren't there still slanderous remarks made about Mormons today?  My assertion that I am head prophet of the world is rooted in the Mormon tradition - a man by the name of Gordon B. Hinckley is the current head prophet of the Church - and Mormons believe that their church is the true church in all of the world.  So, that would make Gordon B. Hinckley HEAD prophet of the world's church, right?  Yes.  If you think that they are delusional, that's your right - they may or MAY NOT be.  Should all Mormons check into hospitals just because they believe that their church is the only right church in the world.  Please, Donovan, get a grip, you might even try praying to Jesus once in a while for some clarity.
 
Anyway, my claim is that The Book of Mormon has been fulfilled, and that I am the next head prophet in line.  Now, just because I don't have a church to back me with this, doesn't mean that I'm mentally ill.  When people say that reincarnation is possible, I say that there is no evidence that we are reincarnated: yet, people concoct entire religions from that foolish notion that today I am a human and yesterday I was a cow or a fly.
 
But aren't all religions just a little bit foolish, anyway, Donovan?  You have to admit, something's wrong in the world regarding religion...well, I happen to think that I know how to resolve those basic problems with the world's theosophies.  If that makes me smarter than anyone around, then fine. 
 
I believe that we are in the period referred to in The Book of Revelation (New Testament) as The End Times.  And, so I have no interest in putting down roots, when all I see is evidence (concrete evidence) that the universities, churches, places of business, most forms of government, will all be blown from their foundations by a spiritual wind that is blowing through each one of us.  I want to be clear on this: I'm NOT EVER trying to start a religion, I'm just trying to get people to bring God into their daily lives, so that we can all live better - but there is so much evil afoot these days, Donovan - and...you're a part of it.
 
 
In Christ,
Douglas Stambler
 


onovan Arnold <donovanarnold@hotmail.com> wrote:

You know folks,

At first, I despised Stambler. Now I just feel sorry for him. It is clear he is mentally ill and needs help. He has no friends, no family, and no ability to get hired, much less maintain a job. His statements that he is "the smartest guy around" a future "President of the United States" a "Prophet" and a "Sheer" is only part of the evidence of his mental delusions of self grandeur. It is sad that someone has to believe this about themselves to think they are worth something.

Making such statements about oneself in a public forum is a sure sign of mental disorder. I think Douglas needs serious professional help. Is there anyone on Vision2020 that knows how Douglas can use government services to give him the help that he needs? I think this would be of better use then giving him a ticket to Connecticut where he will continue to damage himself and others with mental delusions and false statements about others.

I don't mean to sound like a bleeding heart liberal here, but really, if someone had a physical ailment, would we ignore and mistreat them? So what is the difference between an outside disability and internal one? A brain can be just as dysfunctional as an outside appendage. Clearly Douglas does not think he is mentally ill. However, how many people do that are?

Donovan J Arnold

>From: Douglas Stambler
>To: vision2020@moscow.com
>Subject: [Vision2020] Regarding The Lawsuits Against Christ Church
>Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2003 17:08:13 -0700 (PDT)
>
>I kindly ask the person who asked me to help them with their lawsuit against Christ Church to come forward -in the name of Christ- and tell the forum that I am not making up these charges. I will not violate the confidence you placed in me when you e-mailed me and asked me to help you, but I refuse to take this forum's abuse about me making things up. Please come forward and air your lawsuit out in public.
>
>Thank you.
>
>In Christ,
>Dogulas Stambler
>
>
>---------------------------------
>Do you Yahoo!?
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SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! --0-1494643024-1056588752=:80092-- From JoeH@turbonet.com Thu Jun 26 02:01:46 2003 From: JoeH@turbonet.com (Joe Huffman) Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2003 18:01:46 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] Delusions. In-Reply-To: <20030626005232.80140.qmail@web20504.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <000901c33b7e$845e8190$6400a8c0@Voyager> I'm reminded of something a nurse at a psych ward said when asked, "Why do so many of the people here believe God talks to them?" Her answer was, "Because it's a socially acceptable delusion." -joe- From donovanarnold@hotmail.com Thu Jun 26 02:02:46 2003 From: donovanarnold@hotmail.com (Donovan Arnold) Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2003 18:02:46 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] Re: enough... MSD Pay and Tenure Message-ID:

Dale!

The vision2020 web site lists all postings sent on the message list. It is available even to nonsubscribers to Vision2020. http://vision2020.moscow.com/ is available to the public to read and is the first listing on Google. Messages can be found searching Title, Author, Thread, or Date.

I agree that Vision2020 can't be sued at this time for postings by the members, only the members. But let us also remember that the internet is new and it takes years for a case to make it through court to get a ruling. The internet is vastly under regulated and no one entity can regulate because it transcends city, states, and even country boundaries. How do you regulate what China, Cuba and European countries put out on the net?

Donovan J Arnold 

>From: "Dale Courtney"
>To:
>Subject: [Vision2020] Re: enough... MSD Pay and Tenure
>Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2003 16:50:27 -0700
>
>Ted wrote:
> > I think there are numerous issues that render legal action against First
> > Step for V2020 content problematic.
> >
> > 1) All content is sent to private computer accounts when posted via a
> > non-commercial discussion group, not presented in public like a newspaper
>on
> > the newsstands, or even on a commercial web site making money off the
> > content where the site is intended for view by any and all people with a
> > huge audience.
>
>Except that it is hosted on a publicly available website:
>http://lists2.fsr.net/pipermail/vision2020/
>
> > 2) The account holders voluntarily choose to receive the content, and can
> > stop the content at any time. No one should be surprised by what may be
> > posted on a free public discussion group where content is offered freely
>by
> > individuals.
>
>Except that it is hosted on a publically available website:
>http://lists2.fsr.net/pipermail/vision2020/
>
> > 3) A person who goes to the V2020 archives on the web must go through
> > numerous steps to read the content, that is presented with no pretension
> > from First Step that they are providing pre-screened factual news or
> > information.
>
>Not true. An Altavista search will send you directly to content in the
>archive. For example, my posts on MSD:
>http://www.altavista.com/web/results?pg=aq&avkw=xytx&filetype=&aqmode=b&aqb=courtney+near+vision2020+near+MSD&aqs=&kgs=0&kls=1
>
> > 4) V2020 is NOT moderated! I'm not sure why you mentioned Bill London as
>a
> > "moderator."
>
>The list doesn't need to be moderated for the "distributor" to be libelous.
>
> > 5) If a web site can be sued and shut down for libel for content offered
> > freely by individuals in a discussion format, Google would be shut down
>NOW,
> > because Google hosts Usenet newsgroups, where you can find the most
> > astonishing lies and profanity about any and all subjects and persons,
>along
> > with mostly sincere and honest offerings, posted freely by individuals on
> > Usenet. Vision2020 is similar to a Usenet newsgroup in some respects
>
>That's why Yahoo! Groups has moderators who are responsible for libelous
>content.
>
>Best,
>Dale Courtney
>Moscow, Idaho
>
>_____________________________________________________
> List services made available by First Step Internet,
> serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
> http://www.fsr.net
> mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com
>ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ

MSN 8 with e-mail virus protection service: 2 months FREE* From ted_moffett@hotmail.com Thu Jun 26 02:19:45 2003 From: ted_moffett@hotmail.com (Ted Moffett) Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2003 01:19:45 +0000 Subject: [Vision2020] Re: enough... MSD Pay and Tenure Message-ID: Dale et. al. Yes, you are correct, a search engine can retrieve V2020 posts directly off the archive, so my comments on the numerous steps taken to view the V2020 archive were misleading. I posted another post about this Usenet libel issue, so I will not duplicate what I said there. Newspapers do screen for content and are expected to provide accurate information, as with many web sites that provide information or distribute news. A public discussion forum like V2020 offers no screening of the info presented by the individuals on the list, and no pretension the information distributed will be accurate. V2020 being "public" does not automatically render First Step liable for potentially libelous material that is distributed through V2020. I think Bill London's comments that having a moderated, rather than un-moderated, public list serve actually makes the ISP more potentially liable for libelous content, is correct. As with many issues in the law, there are grey areas and disagreements among different judges and courts, or between the law in different states or nations, which in the age of the global Internet, creates numerous legal complications that are hard to sort through. V2020 is actually distributed worldwide, via the archives, so someone in Singapore could sue First Step! George W. Bush was recently declared by a court in Belgium to be a war criminal. This does not mean anything legally here in the USA, of course. I'm sure the Internet has provided lawyers with a whole new field to expand the number and weight of law books on the shelves. Ted >From: "Dale Courtney" >To: >Subject: [Vision2020] Re: enough... MSD Pay and Tenure >Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2003 16:50:27 -0700 > >Ted wrote: > > I think there are numerous issues that render legal action against First > > Step for V2020 content problematic. > > > > 1) All content is sent to private computer accounts when posted via a > > non-commercial discussion group, not presented in public like a >newspaper >on > > the newsstands, or even on a commercial web site making money off the > > content where the site is intended for view by any and all people with a > > huge audience. > >Except that it is hosted on a publically available website: >http://lists2.fsr.net/pipermail/vision2020/ > > > 2) The account holders voluntarily choose to receive the content, and >can > > stop the content at any time. No one should be surprised by what may be > > posted on a free public discussion group where content is offered freely >by > > individuals. > >Except that it is hosted on a publically available website: >http://lists2.fsr.net/pipermail/vision2020/ > > > 3) A person who goes to the V2020 archives on the web must go through > > numerous steps to read the content, that is presented with no pretension > > from First Step that they are providing pre-screened factual news or > > information. > >Not true. An Altavista search will send you directly to content in the >archive. For example, my posts on MSD: >http://www.altavista.com/web/results?pg=aq&avkw=xytx&filetype=&aqmode=b&aqb=courtney+near+vision2020+near+MSD&aqs=&kgs=0&kls=1 > > > 4) V2020 is NOT moderated! I'm not sure why you mentioned Bill London >as >a > > "moderator." > >The list doesn't need to be moderated for the "distributor" to be libelous. > > > 5) If a web site can be sued and shut down for libel for content >offered > > freely by individuals in a discussion format, Google would be shut down >NOW, > > because Google hosts Usenet newsgroups, where you can find the most > > astonishing lies and profanity about any and all subjects and persons, >along > > with mostly sincere and honest offerings, posted freely by individuals >on > > Usenet. Vision2020 is similar to a Usenet newsgroup in some respects > >That's why Yahoo! Groups has moderators who are responsible for libelous >content. > >Best, >Dale Courtney >Moscow, Idaho > >_____________________________________________________ > List services made available by First Step Internet, > serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994. > http://www.fsr.net > mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com >ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ _________________________________________________________________ The new MSN 8: smart spam protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From stopchristchurch@yahoo.com Thu Jun 26 02:44:00 2003 From: stopchristchurch@yahoo.com (Douglas Stambler) Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2003 18:44:00 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Vision2020] A PRIVATE REPONSE TO DONOVAN ARNOLD In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030626014400.41012.qmail@web20514.mail.yahoo.com> --0-1826660570-1056591840=:39466 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Donovan: God is not a voice in my head, but rather a guidance in my soul. Can you not see the corruption that is rampant in Moscow? Can you not see the years of accumulated secrets? Can you not see that this environment has in a large part contributed to the Hoover scandal? I was on the university campus last May 2002, telling people that Hoover was stealing money from the university. They told me to be quiet. But I continued investigating off-campus, and sure enough, what I alleged to be true even without having a paper trail, was in fact true months later in the press. I'm way ahead of people, Donovan. But I will say this: I am totally willing to give up this idea of prophet and president, if I am so much as proven wrong, even once! I do not feel that I have mispoken on the forum at all, and I have tried to get planted here in Moscow, but I object to the pervasive corruption, and so I have stayed on to help reform your town. I really don't care at this point if anyone wants someone like me around or not, but I do have a knack for exposing things that are hidden. And I will continue to do so. If that makes me unpopular, then I accept that. But no one has proven that 1) my allegation that the Moscow Police Department knew about drugs being used at 225 N. Home Street for about a decade before the topless car wash; 2) that 1/3 of the police in Moscow should be arrested by the other 2/3 of the force, with the freed-up salaries going to the honest cops; 3) and, that Doug Wilson has almost single-handedly made Moscow untenable for righteous people, whatever their religion. ! Until I am proven wrong on these assertions, I WON'T stop talking. I don't care what you say about me, really. THE LORD'S WILL BE DONE, AND IF I'M IN THE WRONG, THEN GOD WILL TAKE CARE OF ME, NOT YOU. One last point, Donovan: I maintain that I'm a pacifist, and that I try to avoid conflict, notably physical conflict with others. I also believe that God gives me physical protection, and that I can speak with impunity the way I do, because God wants me to do it that way. Some are town criers and some are anonymous authors - I am both, and more - but aren't we all? You think too black and white, Donovan. I'm not the only person who thinks that Moscow should be radically reformed, and I'm not the only one on the forum who thinks that people like you, Moffet, Hansen, Wilson, Cleavenger are just a bunch of simpering idiots, who don't have the courage to even come out of your shells and come and meet me in person and have a normal conversation face to face. IN FACT, DOUG WILSON HAS MET ME FACE TO FACE, BUT HE SNUCK INTO A MEETING WITH ME AND HIS FATHER LIKE A TRUE WUSS. I AM willing to meet with others, and I'm willing to let disagreements be disagreements. And I can understand that people don't want to meet with me, and that doesn't bother me in the slightest. THE LORD'S WILL BE DONE, not my own. I have nothing to prove. But if you think that I was for a moment serious about going to my hometown in Connecticut, then you can't even tell when the forum is being mocked, and maybe YOU should find somewhere else to post. In Christ, Douglas Stambler Donovan Arnold wrote: Doug, Why don't you ask God to buy you ticket for Conneticut? Why don't you ask God to get you a JOB? Why don't you ask God to find you a home away from "satan worshipers". Why don't you ask God for at least one freaking follower? Why don't you ask God to tell you who sent you a email to have "YOU" help them with a lawsuit against "Christ Church"? I will tell you why Doug. You are mentally ill. You need help. That is obvious to anyone that knows you. You are not stupid, why don't you start asking a few of the people in here if they think you are mentally ill. I sure you will find the answer to be "yes" by 95% + of the responses. You know how you said that God speaks to you through other people. Well, this is just a guess, but I think God is speaking to you through all people in saying that you need mental help. Good luck. Donovan J Arnold >From: Douglas Stambler >To: Donovan Arnold , vision2020@moscow.com >Subject: [Vision2020] response to donovan arnold >Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2003 17:52:32 -0700 (PDT) > >Donovan: > >What is the clinical definition of "mental illness?" > >And weren't many slanderous things also said about Joseph Smith (a founder of the Mormon Church), and aren't there still slanderous remarks made about Mormons today? My assertion that I am head prophet of the world is rooted in the Mormon tradition - a man by the name of Gordon B. Hinckley is the current head prophet of the Church - and Mormons believe that their church is the true church in all of the world. So, that would make Gordon B. Hinckley HEAD prophet of the world's church, right? Yes. If you think that they are delusional, that's your right - they may or MAY NOT be. Should all Mormons check into hospitals just because they believe that their church is the only right church in the world. Please, Donovan, get a grip, you might even try praying to Jesus once in a while for some clarity. > >Anyway, my claim is that The Book of Mormon has been fulfilled, and that I am the next head prophet in line. Now, just because I don't have a church to back me with this, doesn't mean that I'm mentally ill. When people say that reincarnation is possible, I say that there is no evidence that we are reincarnated: yet, people concoct entire religions from that foolish notion that today I am a human and yesterday I was a cow or a fly. > >But aren't all religions just a little bit foolish, anyway, Donovan? You have to admit, something's wrong in the world regarding religion...well, I happen to think that I know how to resolve those basic problems with the world's theosophies. If that makes me smarter than anyone around, then fine. > >I believe that we are in the period referred to in The Book of Revelation (New Testament) as The End Times. And, so I have no interest in putting down roots, when all I see is evidence (concrete evidence) that the universities, churches, places of business, most forms of government, will all be blown from their foundations by a spiritual wind that is blowing through each one of us. I want to be clear on this: I'm NOT EVER trying to start a religion, I'm just trying to get people to bring God into their daily lives, so that we can all live better - but there is so much evil afoot these days, Donovan - and...you're a part of it. > > >In Christ, >Douglas Stambler > > > >onovan Arnold wrote: > >You know folks, > >At first, I despised Stambler. Now I just feel sorry for him. It is clear he is mentally ill and needs help. He has no friends, no family, and no ability to get hired, much less maintain a job. His statements that he is "the smartest guy around" a future "President of the United States" a "Prophet" and a "Sheer" is only part of the evidence of his mental delusions of self grandeur. It is sad that someone has to believe this about themselves to think they are worth something. > > >Making such statements about oneself in a public forum is a sure sign of mental disorder. I think Douglas needs serious professional help. Is there anyone on Vision2020 that knows how Douglas can use government services to give him the help that he needs? I think this would be of better use then giving him a ticket to Connecticut where he will continue to damage himself and others with mental delusions and false statements about others. > > >I don't mean to sound like a bleeding heart liberal here, but really, if someone had a physical ailment, would we ignore and mistreat them? So what is the difference between an outside disability and internal one? A brain can be just as dysfunctional as an outside appendage. Clearly Douglas does not think he is mentally ill. However, how many people do that are? > > >Donovan J Arnold > > > > > > >From: Douglas Stambler > > >To: vision2020@moscow.com > > >Subject: [Vision2020] Regarding The Lawsuits Against Christ Church > > >Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2003 17:08:13 -0700 (PDT) > > > > > >I kindly ask the person who asked me to help them with their lawsuit against Christ Church to come forward -in the name of Christ- and tell the forum that I am not making up these charges. I will not violate the confidence you placed in me when you e-mailed me and asked me to help you, but I refuse to take this forum's abuse about me making things up. Please come forward and air your lawsuit out in public. > > > > > >Thank you. > > > > > >In Christ, > > >Dogulas Stambler > > > > > > > > >--------------------------------- > > >Do you Yahoo!? > > >SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! > > > > > >--------------------------------- >MSN 8 helps ELIMINATE E-MAIL VIRUSES. Get 2 months FREE*. > > >--------------------------------- >Do you Yahoo!? >SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! --------------------------------- MSN 8 helps ELIMINATE E-MAIL VIRUSES. Get 2 months FREE*. --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! --0-1826660570-1056591840=:39466 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
Donovan:
 
God is not a voice in my head, but rather a guidance in my soul.
 
Can you not see the corruption that is rampant in Moscow?  Can you not see the years of accumulated secrets?  Can you not see that this environment has in a large part contributed to the Hoover scandal?
 
I was on the university campus last May 2002, telling people that Hoover was stealing money from the university.  They told me to be quiet.  But I continued investigating off-campus, and sure enough, what I alleged to be true even without having a paper trail, was in fact true months later in the press.
 
I'm way ahead of people, Donovan.
 
But I will say this: I am totally willing to give up this idea of prophet and president, if I am so much as proven wrong, even once!  I do not feel that I have mispoken on the forum at all, and I have tried to get planted here in Moscow, but I object to the pervasive corruption, and so I have stayed on to help reform your town.  I really don't care at this point if anyone wants someone like me around or not, but I do have a knack for exposing things that are hidden.  And I will continue to do so.  If that makes me unpopular, then I accept that.  But no one has proven that 1) my allegation that the Moscow Police Department knew about drugs being used at 225 N. Home Street for about a decade before the topless car wash; 2) that 1/3 of the police in Moscow should be arrested by the other 2/3 of the force, with the freed-up salaries going to the honest cops; 3) and, that Doug Wilson has almost single-handedly made Moscow untenable for righteous peop! le, whatever their religion.  Until I am proven wrong on these assertions, I WON'T stop talking.  I don't care what you say about me, really.  THE LORD'S WILL BE DONE, AND IF I'M IN THE WRONG, THEN GOD WILL TAKE CARE OF ME, NOT YOU.
 
One last point, Donovan: I maintain that I'm a pacifist, and that I try to avoid conflict, notably physical conflict with others.  I also believe that God gives me physical protection, and that I can speak with impunity the way I do, because God wants me to do it that way.  Some are town criers and some are anonymous authors - I am both, and more - but aren't we all?
 
You think too black and white, Donovan.  I'm not the only person who thinks that Moscow should be radically reformed, and I'm not the only one on the forum who thinks that people like you, Moffet, Hansen, Wilson, Cleavenger are just a bunch of simpering idiots, who don't have the courage to even come out of your shells and come and meet me in person and have a normal conversation face to face.  IN FACT, DOUG WILSON HAS MET ME FACE TO FACE, BUT HE SNUCK INTO A MEETING WITH ME AND HIS FATHER LIKE A TRUE WUSS.  I AM willing to meet with others, and I'm willing to let disagreements be disagreements.  And I can understand that people don't want to meet with me, and that doesn't bother me in the slightest.  THE LORD'S WILL BE DONE, not my own.  I have nothing to prove. 
 
But if you think that I was for a moment serious about going to my hometown in Connecticut, then you can't even tell when the forum is being mocked, and maybe YOU should find somewhere else to post.
 
In Christ,
Douglas Stambler

Donovan Arnold <donovanarnold@hotmail.com> wrote:

Doug,

Why don't you ask God to buy you ticket for Conneticut? Why don't you ask God to get you a JOB? Why don't you ask God to find you a home away from "satan worshipers". Why don't you ask God for at least one freaking follower? Why don't you ask God to tell you who sent you a email to have "YOU" help them with a lawsuit against "Christ Church"?

I will tell you why Doug. You are mentally ill. You need help. That is obvious to anyone that knows you. You are not stupid, why don't you start asking a few of the people in here if they think you are mentally ill. I sure you will find the answer to be "yes" by 95% + of the responses.

You know how you said that God speaks to you through other people. Well, this is just a guess, but I think God is speaking to you through all people in saying that you need mental help. Good luck.

Donovan J Arnold

>From: Douglas Stambler
>To: Donovan Arnold , vision2020@moscow.com
>Subject: [Vision2020] response to donovan arnold
>Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2003 17:52:32 -0700 (PDT)
>
>Donovan:
>
>What is the clinical definition of "mental illness?"
>
>And weren't many slanderous things also said about Joseph Smith (a founder of the Mormon Church), and aren't there still slanderous remarks made about Mormons today? My assertion that I am head prophet of the world is rooted in the Mormon tradition - a man by the name of Gordon B. Hinckley is the current head prophet of the Church - and Mormons believe that their church is the true church in all of the world. So, that would make Gordon B. Hinckley HEAD prophet of the world's church, right? Yes. If you think that they are delusional, that's your right - they may or MAY NOT be. Should all Mormons check into hospitals just because they believe that their church is the only right church in the world. Please, Donovan, get a grip, you might even try praying to Jesus once in a while for some clarity.
>
>Anyway, my claim is that The Book of Mormon has been fulfilled, and that I am the next head prophet in line. Now, just because I don't have a church to back me with this, doesn't mean that I'm mentally ill. When people say that reincarnation is possible, I say that there is no evidence that we are reincarnated: yet, people concoct entire religions from that foolish notion that today I am a human and yesterday I was a cow or a fly.
>
>But aren't all religions just a little bit foolish, anyway, Donovan? You have to admit, something's wrong in the world regarding religion...well, I happen to think that I know how to resolve those basic problems with the world's theosophies. If that makes me smarter than anyone around, then fine.
>
>I believe that we are in the period referred to in The Book of Revelation (New Testament) as The End Times. And, so I have no interest in putting down roots, when all I see is evidence (concrete evidence) that the universities, churches, places of business, most forms of government, will all be blown from their foundations by a spiritual wind that is blowing through each one of us. I want to be clear on this: I'm NOT EVER trying to start a religion, I'm just trying to get people to bring God into their daily lives, so that we can all live better - but there is so much evil afoot these days, Donovan - and...you're a part of it.
>
>
>In Christ,
>Douglas Stambler
>
>
>
>onovan Arnold wrote:
>
>You know folks,
>
>At first, I despised Stambler. Now I just feel sorry for him. It is clear he is mentally ill and needs help. He has no friends, no family, and no ability to get hired, much less maintain a job. His statements that he is "the smartest guy around" a future "President of the United States" a "Prophet" and a "Sheer" is only part of the evidence of his mental delusions of self grandeur. It is sad that someone has to believe this about themselves to think they are worth something.
>
>
>Making such statements about oneself in a public forum is a sure sign of mental disorder. I think Douglas needs serious professional help. Is there anyone on Vision2020 that knows how Douglas can use government services to give him the help that he needs? I think this would be of better use then giving him a ticket to Connecticut where he will continue to damage himself and others with mental delusions and false statements about others.
>
>
>I don't mean to sound like a bleeding heart liberal here, but really, if someone had a physical ailment, would we ignore and mistreat them? So what is the difference between an outside disability and internal one? A brain can be just as dysfunctional as an outside appendage. Clearly Douglas does not think he is mentally ill. However, how many people do that are?
>
>
>Donovan J Arnold
>
>
>
>
>
> >From: Douglas Stambler
>
> >To: vision2020@moscow.com
>
> >Subject: [Vision2020] Regarding The Lawsuits Against Christ Church
>
> >Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2003 17:08:13 -0700 (PDT)
>
> >
>
> >I kindly ask the person who asked me to help them with their lawsuit against Christ Church to come forward -in the name of Christ- and tell the forum that I am not making up these charges. I will not violate the confidence you placed in me when you e-mailed me and asked me to help you, but I refuse to take this forum's abuse about me making things up. Please come forward and air your lawsuit out in public.
>
> >
>
> >Thank you.
>
> >
>
> >In Christ,
>
> >Dogulas Stambler
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >---------------------------------
>
> >Do you Yahoo!?
>
> >SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month!
>
>
>
>
>
>---------------------------------
>MSN 8 helps ELIMINATE E-MAIL VIRUSES. Get 2 months FREE*.
>
>
>---------------------------------
>Do you Yahoo!?
>SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month!

MSN 8 helps ELIMINATE E-MAIL VIRUSES. Get 2 months FREE*.

Do you Yahoo!?
SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! --0-1826660570-1056591840=:39466-- From troy1@moscow.com Thu Jun 26 02:53:31 2003 From: troy1@moscow.com (Troy Merrill) Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2003 18:53:31 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] Mentally Ill References: Message-ID: <002b01c33b85$bffb1c20$6864a8c0@tigris> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0028_01C33B4B.127CF170 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Has this list desended to the level of a gossip circle? Public = speculation about the mental health of someone is as inappropriate as = posting inflamatory claims. Also from my loose tally there are less 10 = people who care about this. Let it die. Troy Merrill ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Donovan Arnold=20 To: stopchristchurch@yahoo.com ; vision2020@moscow.com=20 Sent: Wednesday, June 25, 2003 5:39 PM Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Mentally Ill You know folks, At first, I despised Stambler. Now I just feel sorry for him. It is = clear he is mentally ill and needs help. He has no friends, no family, = and no ability to get hired, much less maintain a job. His statements = that he is "the smartest guy around" a future "President of the United = States" a "Prophet" and a "Sheer" is only part of the evidence of his = mental delusions of self grandeur. It is sad that someone has to believe = this about themselves to think they are worth something. Making such statements about oneself in a public forum is a sure sign = of mental disorder. I think Douglas needs serious professional help. Is = there anyone on Vision2020 that knows how Douglas can use government = services to give him the help that he needs? I think this would be of = better use then giving him a ticket to Connecticut where he will = continue to damage himself and others with mental delusions and false = statements about others. I don't mean to sound like a bleeding heart liberal here, but really, = if someone had a physical ailment, would we ignore and mistreat them? So = what is the difference between an outside disability and internal one? A = brain can be just as dysfunctional as an outside appendage. Clearly = Douglas does not think he is mentally ill. However, how many people do = that are? Donovan J Arnold >From: Douglas Stambler=20 >To: vision2020@moscow.com=20 >Subject: [Vision2020] Regarding The Lawsuits Against Christ Church=20 >Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2003 17:08:13 -0700 (PDT)=20 >=20 >I kindly ask the person who asked me to help them with their lawsuit = against Christ Church to come forward -in the name of Christ- and tell = the forum that I am not making up these charges. I will not violate the = confidence you placed in me when you e-mailed me and asked me to help = you, but I refuse to take this forum's abuse about me making things up. = Please come forward and air your lawsuit out in public.=20 >=20 >Thank you.=20 >=20 >In Christ,=20 >Dogulas Stambler=20 >=20 >=20 >---------------------------------=20 >Do you Yahoo!?=20 >SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month!=20 -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ----- MSN 8 helps ELIMINATE E-MAIL VIRUSES. Get 2 months FREE*. = _____________________________________________________ List services made = available by First Step Internet, serving the communities of the Palouse = since 1994. http://www.fsr.net mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com = =AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF= =AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF= =AF=AF=AF=20 ------=_NextPart_000_0028_01C33B4B.127CF170 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Has this list desended to the level of = a gossip=20 circle?  Public speculation about the mental health of someone is = as=20 inappropriate as posting inflamatory claims.  Also from my loose = tally=20 there are less 10 people who care about this.  Let it = die.
 
Troy Merrill
 
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Donovan Arnold
To: stopchristchurch@yahoo.com= ; vision2020@moscow.com
Sent: Wednesday, June 25, 2003 = 5:39=20 PM
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] = Mentally=20 Ill

You know folks,

At first, I despised Stambler. Now I just feel sorry for him. It is = clear=20 he is mentally ill and needs help. He has no friends, no family, and = no=20 ability to get hired, much less maintain a job. His statements that he = is "the=20 smartest guy around" a future "President of the United States" a = "Prophet" and=20 a "Sheer" is only part of the evidence of his mental delusions of self = grandeur. It is sad that someone has to believe this about themselves = to think=20 they are worth something.

Making such statements about oneself in a public forum is a sure = sign of=20 mental disorder. I think Douglas needs serious professional help. Is = there=20 anyone on Vision2020 that knows how Douglas can use government = services=20 to give him the help that he needs? I think this would be of better = use then=20 giving him a ticket to Connecticut where he will continue to = damage=20 himself and others with mental delusions and false statements about=20 others.

I don't mean to sound like a bleeding heart liberal here, but = really, if=20 someone had a physical ailment, would we ignore and mistreat them? So = what is=20 the difference between an outside disability and internal one? A brain = can be=20 just as dysfunctional as an outside appendage. Clearly = Douglas does not=20 think he is mentally ill. However, how many people do that are?

Donovan J Arnold

>From: Douglas Stambler
>To: vision2020@moscow.com=20
>Subject: [Vision2020] Regarding The Lawsuits Against = Christ=20 Church=20
>Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2003 17:08:13 -0700 (PDT)=20
>=20
>I kindly ask the person who asked me to help them with = their=20 lawsuit against Christ Church to come forward -in the name of Christ- = and tell=20 the forum that I am not making up these charges. I will not violate = the=20 confidence you placed in me when you e-mailed me and asked me to help = you, but=20 I refuse to take this forum's abuse about me making things up. Please = come=20 forward and air your lawsuit out in public.=20
>=20
>Thank you.=20
>=20
>In Christ,=20
>Dogulas Stambler=20
>=20
>=20
>---------------------------------=20
>Do you Yahoo!?=20
>SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month!=20

MSN 8 helps ELIMINATE E-MAIL=20 VIRUSES. Get 2 months FREE*.=20 _____________________________________________________ List services = made=20 available by First Step Internet, serving the communities of the = Palouse since=20 1994. http://www.fsr.net mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com=20 = =AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF= =AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF= =AF=AF=AF=20 ------=_NextPart_000_0028_01C33B4B.127CF170-- From thansen@moscow.com Thu Jun 26 02:59:31 2003 From: thansen@moscow.com (Tom Hansen) Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2003 18:59:31 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] Re: enough... MSD Pay and Tenure In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Ted Moffett stated: " . . . my comments on the numerous steps taken to view the V2020 archive were misleading." I realize that "numerous" is in the eye of the beholder, but after clicking on three very conspicuous links I found myself at: http://lists2.fsr.net/pipermail/vision2020/2003-June/author.html If "shooting the messenger" (replace with "suing an entity that provides a service to the public") is not considered frivolous, then why haven't women filed civil litigation against the phone company each time they received a sexually explicit/suggestive telephone call? Certainly, Vision2020 is no more monitored/managed than a local telephone call. Tom Hansen Moscow, Idaho From sslund@moscow.com Thu Jun 26 02:59:00 2003 From: sslund@moscow.com (Saundra Lund) Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2003 18:59:00 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] Free/Reduced Cost Local Mental Health Services In-Reply-To: <20030625235457.57755.qmail@web20502.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <005301c33b86$834b1c20$6501a8c0@pooh> Mr. Stambler wrote: "Am I Mentally Ill, Or Not? I Will Accept An Evaluation By A Local Doctor - thank you" And, Mr. Arnold wrote: "I think Douglas needs serious professional help. Is there anyone on Vision2020 that knows how Douglas can use government services to give him the help that he needs?" Mr. Stambler should call Adult Mental Health (Idaho State Department of Health & Welfare) at: 882-0562. For more detailed information, please see: http://www2.state.id.us/dhw/mentalhealth/mhservices.htm#1.%20State The last I knew (from when I worked there three+ years ago), service were based on a sliding fee scale, so if Mr. Stambler has no income, services should be free (assuming he qualifies for services) . . . unless budget crisis has changed things. HTH, Saundra Moscow, Idaho The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good people to do nothing. Edmund Burke From stopchristchurch@yahoo.com Thu Jun 26 03:02:46 2003 From: stopchristchurch@yahoo.com (Douglas Stambler) Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2003 19:02:46 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Vision2020] thanks for the offer, sandra In-Reply-To: <005301c33b86$834b1c20$6501a8c0@pooh> Message-ID: <20030626020246.98155.qmail@web20508.mail.yahoo.com> --0-191643357-1056592966=:98090 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii I'LL GO IF SOMEONE GIVES ME A PLACE TO STAY TONIGHT. Saundra Lund wrote: Mr. Stambler wrote: "Am I Mentally Ill, Or Not? I Will Accept An Evaluation By A Local Doctor - thank you" And, Mr. Arnold wrote: "I think Douglas needs serious professional help. Is there anyone on Vision2020 that knows how Douglas can use government services to give him the help that he needs?" Mr. Stambler should call Adult Mental Health (Idaho State Department of Health & Welfare) at: 882-0562. For more detailed information, please see: http://www2.state.id.us/dhw/mentalhealth/mhservices.htm#1.%20State The last I knew (from when I worked there three+ years ago), service were based on a sliding fee scale, so if Mr. Stambler has no income, services should be free (assuming he qualifies for services) . . . unless budget crisis has changed things. HTH, Saundra Moscow, Idaho The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good people to do nothing. Edmund Burke --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! --0-191643357-1056592966=:98090 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
I'LL GO IF SOMEONE GIVES ME A PLACE TO STAY TONIGHT.

Saundra Lund <sslund@moscow.com> wrote:
Mr. Stambler wrote:
"Am I Mentally Ill, Or Not? I Will Accept An Evaluation By A Local
Doctor - thank you"

And, Mr. Arnold wrote:
"I think Douglas needs serious professional help. Is there anyone on
Vision2020 that knows how Douglas can use government services to give
him the help that he needs?"

Mr. Stambler should call Adult Mental Health (Idaho State Department of
Health & Welfare) at: 882-0562.

For more detailed information, please see:
http://www2.state.id.us/dhw/mentalhealth/mhservices.htm#1.%20State

The last I knew (from when I worked there three+ years ago), service
were based on a sliding fee scale, so if Mr. Stambler has no income,
services should be free (assuming he qualifies for services) . . .
unless budget crisis has changed things.


HTH,
Saundra
Moscow, Idaho

The only thing ne! cessary for the triumph of evil is for good people to
do nothing.
Edmund Burke

Do you Yahoo!?
SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! --0-191643357-1056592966=:98090-- From escape@alt-escape.com Thu Jun 26 04:58:26 2003 From: escape@alt-escape.com (Bob Hoffmann) Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2003 20:58:26 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] Virus? Re: Movie Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.2.20030625205648.017260a0@mail.turbonet.com> I've received the below message twice, at different email addresses. I suspect it is a virus. If anyone receives this, I recommend that no one unzip the file that is attached. >From: >To: >Subject: Re: Movie >Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2003 10:27:59 --0700 >Importance: Normal >X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 > >Please see the attached zip file for details. Bob Hoffmann 820 S. Logan St. Moscow, ID 83843 Tel: 208 883-0642 From JoeH@turbonet.com Thu Jun 26 05:06:25 2003 From: JoeH@turbonet.com (Joe Huffman) Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2003 21:06:25 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] Virus? Re: Movie In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.2.20030625205648.017260a0@mail.turbonet.com> Message-ID: <001401c33b98$50015c00$6400a8c0@Voyager> Yeah. I got something like five or six of them this afternoon on various email addresses (including my cell phone). Email went out at work saying it was a virus: WORM_SOBIG.E -joe- ---- http://www.joehuffman.org http://www.modernballistics.com http://www.boomershoot.org mailto:JoeH@joehuffman.org mailto:phone@joehuffman.org (Cell phone text message 110 chars max) -----Original Message----- From: vision2020-admin@moscow.com [mailto:vision2020-admin@moscow.com] On Behalf Of Bob Hoffmann Sent: Wednesday, June 25, 2003 8:58 PM To: vision2020@moscow.com Subject: [Vision2020] Virus? Re: Movie I've received the below message twice, at different email addresses. I suspect it is a virus. If anyone receives this, I recommend that no one unzip the file that is attached. >From: >To: >Subject: Re: Movie >Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2003 10:27:59 --0700 >Importance: Normal >X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 > >Please see the attached zip file for details. Bob Hoffmann 820 S. Logan St. Moscow, ID 83843 Tel: 208 883-0642 _____________________________________________________ List services made available by First Step Internet, serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994. http://www.fsr.net mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ From lukenieuwsma@softhome.net Thu Jun 26 05:12:04 2003 From: lukenieuwsma@softhome.net (Luke) Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2003 21:12:04 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] a reach out to you References: <20030626000442.90386.qmail@web20510.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <013701c33b99$2b0838a0$2f00a8c0@MOBILELUKE> Mr. Stambler: so, i'm writing to you to tell you that it's your time to reach out to Christ, Wayne. >Christians are not mentally ill. we're different from agnostics, but i tell you, Wayne, >God is real, and wants us to follow Christ. >anyway, just thought i'd reach out to you. And one of your methods of doing this... is slandering your opponents? Radically different, Stambler, radically different. Luke From lukenieuwsma@softhome.net Thu Jun 26 05:14:42 2003 From: lukenieuwsma@softhome.net (Luke) Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2003 21:14:42 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] Mentally Ill References: <002b01c33b85$bffb1c20$6864a8c0@tigris> Message-ID: <014301c33b99$8af8ebb0$2f00a8c0@MOBILELUKE> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_013E_01C33B5E.CB84D2B0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Mr. Merril: We could let it die if Stambler would let it die. But he won't, and = from the bizarre nature of his writings, as well as his actions here in = town, it is quite obvious that some screws are slightly loose up top. = It's not gossip to say what everyone knows already, and pointing out a = communal threat is not the thing as slandering your personal enemies. Luke ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Troy Merrill=20 To: Donovan Arnold ; stopchristchurch@yahoo.com ; = vision2020@moscow.com=20 Sent: Wednesday, June 25, 2003 6:53 PM Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Mentally Ill Has this list desended to the level of a gossip circle? Public = speculation about the mental health of someone is as inappropriate as = posting inflamatory claims. Also from my loose tally there are less 10 = people who care about this. Let it die. Troy Merrill ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Donovan Arnold=20 To: stopchristchurch@yahoo.com ; vision2020@moscow.com=20 Sent: Wednesday, June 25, 2003 5:39 PM Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Mentally Ill You know folks, At first, I despised Stambler. Now I just feel sorry for him. It is = clear he is mentally ill and needs help. He has no friends, no family, = and no ability to get hired, much less maintain a job. His statements = that he is "the smartest guy around" a future "President of the United = States" a "Prophet" and a "Sheer" is only part of the evidence of his = mental delusions of self grandeur. It is sad that someone has to believe = this about themselves to think they are worth something. Making such statements about oneself in a public forum is a sure = sign of mental disorder. I think Douglas needs serious professional = help. Is there anyone on Vision2020 that knows how Douglas can use = government services to give him the help that he needs? I think this = would be of better use then giving him a ticket to Connecticut where he = will continue to damage himself and others with mental delusions and = false statements about others. I don't mean to sound like a bleeding heart liberal here, but = really, if someone had a physical ailment, would we ignore and mistreat = them? So what is the difference between an outside disability and = internal one? A brain can be just as dysfunctional as an outside = appendage. Clearly Douglas does not think he is mentally ill. However, = how many people do that are? Donovan J Arnold >From: Douglas Stambler=20 >To: vision2020@moscow.com=20 >Subject: [Vision2020] Regarding The Lawsuits Against Christ Church=20 >Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2003 17:08:13 -0700 (PDT)=20 >=20 >I kindly ask the person who asked me to help them with their = lawsuit against Christ Church to come forward -in the name of Christ- = and tell the forum that I am not making up these charges. I will not = violate the confidence you placed in me when you e-mailed me and asked = me to help you, but I refuse to take this forum's abuse about me making = things up. Please come forward and air your lawsuit out in public.=20 >=20 >Thank you.=20 >=20 >In Christ,=20 >Dogulas Stambler=20 >=20 >=20 >---------------------------------=20 >Do you Yahoo!?=20 >SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month!=20 -------------------------------------------------------------------------= --- MSN 8 helps ELIMINATE E-MAIL VIRUSES. Get 2 months FREE*. = _____________________________________________________ List services made = available by First Step Internet, serving the communities of the Palouse = since 1994. http://www.fsr.net mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com = =AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF= =AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF= =AF=AF=AF ------=_NextPart_000_013E_01C33B5E.CB84D2B0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Mr. Merril:
    We could let it die = if Stambler=20 would let it die. But he won't, and from the bizarre nature of his = writings, as=20 well as his actions here in town, it is quite obvious that some screws = are=20 slightly loose up top. It's not gossip to say what everyone knows = already, and=20 pointing out a communal threat is not the thing as slandering your = personal=20 enemies.
Luke
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Troy = Merrill=20
To: Donovan Arnold ; stopchristchurch@yahoo.com= ; vision2020@moscow.com
Sent: Wednesday, June 25, 2003 = 6:53=20 PM
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] = Mentally=20 Ill

Has this list desended to the level = of a gossip=20 circle?  Public speculation about the mental health of someone is = as=20 inappropriate as posting inflamatory claims.  Also from my loose = tally=20 there are less 10 people who care about this.  Let it = die.
 
Troy Merrill
 
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Donovan Arnold
To: stopchristchurch@yahoo.com= ; vision2020@moscow.com =
Sent: Wednesday, June 25, = 2003 5:39=20 PM
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] = Mentally=20 Ill

You know folks,

At first, I despised Stambler. Now I just feel sorry for him. It = is clear=20 he is mentally ill and needs help. He has no friends, no family, and = no=20 ability to get hired, much less maintain a job. His statements that = he is=20 "the smartest guy around" a future "President of the United States" = a=20 "Prophet" and a "Sheer" is only part of the evidence of his mental = delusions=20 of self grandeur. It is sad that someone has to believe this about=20 themselves to think they are worth something.

Making such statements about oneself in a public forum is a sure = sign of=20 mental disorder. I think Douglas needs serious professional help. Is = there=20 anyone on Vision2020 that knows how Douglas can use government = services=20 to give him the help that he needs? I think this would be of better = use then=20 giving him a ticket to Connecticut where he will continue to = damage=20 himself and others with mental delusions and false statements about=20 others.

I don't mean to sound like a bleeding heart liberal here, but = really, if=20 someone had a physical ailment, would we ignore and mistreat them? = So what=20 is the difference between an outside disability and internal one? A = brain=20 can be just as dysfunctional as an outside appendage. Clearly=20 Douglas does not think he is mentally ill. However, how many = people do=20 that are?

Donovan J Arnold

>From: Douglas Stambler
>To: vision2020@moscow.com=20
>Subject: [Vision2020] Regarding The Lawsuits Against = Christ=20 Church=20
>Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2003 17:08:13 -0700 (PDT)=20
>=20
>I kindly ask the person who asked me to help them = with their=20 lawsuit against Christ Church to come forward -in the name of = Christ- and=20 tell the forum that I am not making up these charges. I will not = violate the=20 confidence you placed in me when you e-mailed me and asked me to = help you,=20 but I refuse to take this forum's abuse about me making things up. = Please=20 come forward and air your lawsuit out in public.=20
>=20
>Thank you.=20
>=20
>In Christ,=20
>Dogulas Stambler=20
>=20
>=20
>---------------------------------=20
>Do you Yahoo!?=20
>SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month!=20

MSN 8 helps ELIMINATE E-MAIL=20 VIRUSES. Get 2 months FREE*.=20 _____________________________________________________ List services = made=20 available by First Step Internet, serving the communities of the = Palouse=20 since 1994. http://www.fsr.net mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com=20 = =AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF= =AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF= =AF=AF=AF=20
------=_NextPart_000_013E_01C33B5E.CB84D2B0-- From announcements@radiofreemoscow.com Thu Jun 26 05:48:47 2003 From: announcements@radiofreemoscow.com (Radio Free Moscow) Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2003 21:48:47 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] Radio Free Moscow Call Letters Vote Message-ID: <78F976A4-A791-11D7-AB31-00039394DAA8@radiofreemoscow.com> --Apple-Mail-16-986315951 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Radio Free Moscow is choosing call letters for the station. Below are=20= suggested call letters. We are taking votes until saturday. If you=20 would like to take part, please respond to this address and indicate=20 which call letters you vote for. Our frequency is 92.5 FM. KFEM=A0 Keep Free Expression in Moscow or just Free Expression Moscow KFEX K Free Expression or Keep Freedom of Expression=A0 KPVR K People's Voice Radio KMFI Keep Moscow =46rom Ignorance, Indolence, Inequity, Iniquity,=20 inequality and incomplete sentences! KTTY KOOX KUUP KUTU > KEGS=A0--Sort of sets the=A0format for=A0fundraisers.=A0 > > KFOM=A0 Friends of Moscow; 'You've got foam on your radio.'=A0 > > KRUM=A0--Kind of crumby.=A0 > > KMDR > > KMKR > > KMZR > > KFUX=A0--Fun but I doubt we'd be able to say it over the air. > > KKEY=A0--The=A0Key to Free Speech.=A0 > > KILN=A0--'You're Bakin' in the KILN.'=A0 > > KCHP=A0--KowCHiP Radio=A0 > > KNIT=A0--A tightly KNIT radio community.=A0 > > KNIF=A0--'Radio on the KNIFe edge.'=A0 > > KRPT > > KFMP Free Moscow Pullman > > KRFP Radio Free Palouse.=A0 > > KRFI Radio Free Idaho > > KPMF Pullman Moscow Free > > KRIW Radio Idaho Washington > > KNEE > =A0 > KTTY 'Kitty' > =A0 > KURU 'You've got KURU in your brain.'=A0=A0 > =A0=A0 > KUAN Kuan Yin, a Chinese boddhisattva,=A0as 'mascot'. Radio Free Moscow is a nonprofit, listener-supported community radio=20 station serving Moscow, Idaho. Radio Free Moscow is dedicated to=20 broadcasting progressive news and opinions, civic affairs, diverse=20 music and other programming not normally available from mainstream=20 media outlets. Radio Free Moscow is characterized by volunteer=20 involvement in all aspects of station operation. --Apple-Mail-16-986315951 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/enriched; charset=ISO-8859-1 American = Typewriter0000,0000,0000Radio Free Moscow is choosing call letters for the station. Below are suggested call letters. We are taking votes until saturday. If you would like to take part, please respond to this address and indicate which call letters you vote for. Our frequency is 92.5 FM. KFEM=A0 Keep Free Expression in Moscow or just Free Expression Moscow KFEX K Free Expression or Keep Freedom of Expression=A0 KPVR K People's Voice Radio KMFI Keep Moscow =46rom Ignorance, Indolence, Inequity, Iniquity, inequality and incomplete sentences! KTTY KOOX KUUP KUTU KEGS=A0--Sort of sets the=A0format for=A0fundraisers.=A0 KFOM=A0 Friends of Moscow; 'You've got foam on your radio.'=A0 KRUM=A0--Kind of crumby.=A0 KMDR KMKR KMZR KFUX=A0--Fun but I doubt we'd be able to say it over the air. KKEY=A0--The=A0Key to Free Speech.=A0 KILN=A0--'You're Bakin' in the KILN.'=A0 KCHP=A0--KowCHiP Radio=A0 KNIT=A0--A tightly KNIT radio community.=A0 KNIF=A0--'Radio on the KNIFe edge.'=A0 KRPT KFMP Free Moscow Pullman KRFP Radio Free Palouse.=A0 KRFI Radio Free Idaho KPMF Pullman Moscow Free KRIW Radio Idaho Washington KNEE =A0 KTTY 'Kitty' =A0 KURU 'You've got KURU in your brain.'=A0=A0 =A0=A0 KUAN Kuan Yin, a Chinese boddhisattva,=A0as 'mascot'. 0000,0000,0000Radio Free Moscow is a nonprofit, listener-supported community radio station serving Moscow, Idaho.=20 Radio Free Moscow is dedicated to broadcasting progressive news and opinions, civic affairs, diverse music and other programming not normally available from mainstream media outlets. Radio Free Moscow is characterized by volunteer involvement in all aspects of station operation. =20 = --Apple-Mail-16-986315951-- From rhayes@turbonet.com Thu Jun 26 05:50:23 2003 From: rhayes@turbonet.com (roger hayes) Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2003 21:50:23 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] tired of the nonsense and frivioulus debate In-Reply-To: <20030626014501.64701.25453.Mailman@whale2.fsr.net> Message-ID: Dear 2020 readers: It's been a long time since I posted anything to this list. For years I was intrigued by the various opinions on community issues. Lately, I tire of the nonsense being posted to this list. It isn't just Douglas Stambler who wears me thin. I tire of the Christian vs all other belief system debates. I tire of the endless "one-up-manship" so prevailant by so many. I am certain that no answers will be derived by ceasely posting on the basis of religious faith, or steering lenghtly diatribes from the helm of some logical argument. What about community development? What about the erosion of our Constitional freedoms in this age of paranoia vs real threat? What about the erosion of the downtown tax base non-taxpaying institutions? How about commenting on the quality of life here in this wonderful town? What will we do about the depletion of our aquifer? Is there a need for public transportation? What is the progress of the trail between Moscow and Troy? What issues do Moscovites think will dominate the upcoming city election? These are just a few issues I find interesting and relevant. I am certain there are many more for which I am unaware. Why don't we write about those issues? Anyone have any comments or input? Sincerely, Roger Hayes Moscow > > > From billk@moscow.com Thu Jun 26 07:01:52 2003 From: billk@moscow.com (Bill Kerr) Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2003 23:01:52 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] tired of the nonsense and frivioulus debate In-Reply-To: References: <20030626014501.64701.25453.Mailman@whale2.fsr.net> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20030625225531.009ead70@mail.moscow.com> Thanks Roger. It would be nice if people would work to do the following. I don't know how many times people have sent something meaningful to the list about visions for the future to have it ignored. Let us get back to finding out ways to better our community and not demean others in that community. We now return you back to your regularly scheduled programming... :) At 09:50 PM 06/25/2003 -0700, roger hayes wrote: > What about community development? What about the erosion of our > Constitional freedoms in this age of paranoia vs >real threat? What about the erosion of the downtown tax base >non-taxpaying institutions? How about commenting on the quality of life >here in this wonderful town? What will we do about the depletion of our >aquifer? Is there a need for public transportation? What is the progress >of the trail between Moscow and Troy? What issues do Moscovites think >will dominate the upcoming city election? > >These are just a few issues I find interesting and relevant. I am certain >there are many more for which I am unaware. Why don't we write about >those issues? Anyone have any comments or input? Bill Kerr billk@moscow.com billk@drseuss.lib.uidaho.edu From cbainbridge@ci.moscow.id.us Thu Jun 26 17:00:03 2003 From: cbainbridge@ci.moscow.id.us (Chris Bainbridge) Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2003 09:00:03 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] FW: Monday Meetings Message-ID: <93812436F60FD511A83A0002B3029EFC7B7C87@DCFS01> This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_000_01C33BFC.0179C220 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C33BFC.0179C220" ------_=_NextPart_001_01C33BFC.0179C220 Content-Type: text/plain Please note that the City of Moscow Public Works/Finance Committee and Administrative Committee meetings have been cancelled for Monday, June 30th. The next scheduled meetings will be Monday, July 7th. Stephanie Kalasz, Interim City Clerk ------_=_NextPart_001_01C33BFC.0179C220 Content-Type: text/html Message

Please note that the City of Moscow Public Works/Finance Committee and Administrative Committee meetings have been cancelled for Monday, June 30th.  The next scheduled meetings will be Monday, July 7th.

Stephanie Kalasz, Interim City Clerk 

 

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I was contacted offline and accused of attacking FSR. For the record, I want to make it *perfectly* clear that my complaints on the libelous materials posted on the forum have *nothing* to do with Kevin or First Step's endorsement of them. I am impressed with First Step. Having spent 7 years in Silicon Valley dealing with all sorts of ISPs, I can tell you that the shop Kevin Owen runs at FSR is the *best* I have ever had dealings with. Their Tech Support wins hands-down, and their service has an uptime that would make the best California ISP jealous. I'm probably the happiest customer that FSR has and routinely recommend people to them for their service. I am grateful that they are willing to provide Vision2020 service "free" of charge so that we have this forum available. As you may recall, when Mr. Stambler started deleting accounts at UI last year, FSR jumped thru hoops to install a new discussion board system to prevent this. That is just one demonstration of their support of this forum. So my complaints are not against FSR. My *concern* is that there are libelous materials sitting on the vision2020 server that FSR hosts. That's a completely different issue. Best, Dale From donovanarnold@hotmail.com Thu Jun 26 17:30:02 2003 From: donovanarnold@hotmail.com (Donovan Arnold) Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2003 09:30:02 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] US Government booted out of your bedroom Message-ID:

Good News!

The United States Supreme Court in a 6-3 decision overruled Bowers VS. Hardwick. This overthrows the state laws to regulate sodomy and other sexual acts done by two consenting adults in their own bedroom.

Justice Scalia, in the "retarded statement of the century", who was on the losing side, stated that this means that we can't regulate masturbation in the privacy of one's home either.  I guess this now means 98% of men in the US are now no longer criminals.

I am extremely pleased that tax dollars will no longer be used to regulate the personal behavior between two adults in there own home. Now maybe the government can concentrate on the real problems facing this nation like the economy, health care, education, and poverty.
Check out the story here.

 
Donovan J Arnold


Add photos to your messages with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. From london@moscow.com Thu Jun 26 17:43:56 2003 From: london@moscow.com (Bill London) Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2003 09:43:56 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] tired of the nonsense and frivioulus debate References: Message-ID: <3EFB22CC.9A6EC465@moscow.com> Roger: Why don't you write about those issues? I do not want to appear snippy here, but I think that is what is needed here--for people to change the subject on V2020 by writing about topics they find more interesting. So what about the new voluntary water conservation standards? is that enough? What is the role that local governments should play in economic development? Are those tax dollars spent on economic development goals well-spent? etc BL roger hayes wrote: > Dear 2020 readers: > > It's been a long time since I posted anything to this list. For > years I was intrigued by the various opinions on community issues. > Lately, I tire of the nonsense being posted to this list. It isn't > just Douglas Stambler who wears me thin. I tire of the Christian vs > all other belief system debates. I tire of the endless > "one-up-manship" so prevailant by so many. > > I am certain that no answers will be derived by ceasely posting on the > basis of religious faith, or steering lenghtly diatribes from the helm > of some logical argument. What about community development? What about > the erosion of our Constitional freedoms in this age of paranoia vs > real threat? What about the erosion of the downtown tax base > non-taxpaying institutions? How about commenting on the quality of > life here in this wonderful town? What will we do about the depletion > of our aquifer? Is there a need for public transportation? What is > the progress of the trail between Moscow and Troy? What issues do > Moscovites think will dominate the upcoming city election? > > These are just a few issues I find interesting and relevant. I am > certain there are many more for which I am unaware. Why don't we write > about those issues? Anyone have any comments or input? > > Sincerely, > > Roger Hayes > Moscow > > > > > > > > > _____________________________________________________ > List services made available by First Step Internet, > serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994. > http://www.fsr.net > mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com > ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ From predator75@moscow.com Thu Jun 26 17:37:59 2003 From: predator75@moscow.com (Dan Carscallen) Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2003 09:37:59 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] US Government booted out of your bedroom References: Message-ID: <00cc01c33c01$4e246df0$831da13f@MOSCOW1> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_00C9_01C33BC6.A1A69C40 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable The Supreme Court spending time ruling on this decision is more wasteful = of my tax dollars than any sodomy laws on the books that nobody enforced = anyway. At least I've never been worried about the Feds busting down my = bedroom door to catch me in a salacious act. DC ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Donovan Arnold=20 To: vision2020@moscow.com=20 Sent: Thursday, June 26, 2003 9:30 AM Subject: [Vision2020] US Government booted out of your bedroom Good News! The United States Supreme Court in a 6-3 decision overruled Bowers VS. = Hardwick. This overthrows the state laws to regulate sodomy and other = sexual acts done by two consenting adults in their own bedroom.=20 Justice Scalia, in the "retarded statement of the century", who was on = the losing side, stated that this means that we can't regulate = masturbation in the privacy of one's home either. I guess this now = means 98% of men in the US are now no longer criminals.=20 I am extremely pleased that tax dollars will no longer be used to = regulate the personal behavior between two adults in there own home. Now = maybe the government can concentrate on the real problems facing this = nation like the economy, health care, education, and poverty. Check out the story here. http://www.cnn.com/2003/LAW/06/26/scotus.sodomy/index.html Donovan J Arnold -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ------- Add photos to your messages with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. = _____________________________________________________ List services made = available by First Step Internet, serving the communities of the Palouse = since 1994. http://www.fsr.net mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com = =AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF= =AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF= =AF=AF=AF ------=_NextPart_000_00C9_01C33BC6.A1A69C40 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
The Supreme Court spending time ruling on this decision is more = wasteful of=20 my tax dollars than any sodomy laws on the books that nobody=20 enforced anyway.  At least I've never been worried about the = Feds=20 busting down my bedroom door to catch me in a salacious act.
 
DC
 
----- Original Message -----=20
From: Donovan=20 Arnold
Sent: Thursday, June 26, 2003 9:30 AM
Subject: [Vision2020] US Government booted out of your=20 bedroom

Good News!

The United States Supreme Court in a 6-3 decision overruled Bowers = VS.=20 Hardwick. This overthrows the state laws to regulate sodomy and other = sexual=20 acts done by two consenting adults in their own bedroom. =

Justice Scalia, in the "retarded statement of the century", who = was on=20 the losing side, stated that this means that we can't regulate = masturbation in=20 the privacy of one's home either.  I guess this now means 98% of = men in the=20 US are now no longer criminals.

I am extremely pleased that tax dollars will no longer be used to = regulate=20 the personal behavior between two adults in there own home. Now maybe = the=20 government can concentrate on the real problems facing this nation like = the=20 economy, health care, education, and poverty.
Check out the story = here.

http://www.cnn.com/2003/LAW/06/26/scotus.sodomy/index.htm= l
 
Donovan J Arnold


Add photos to your messages with MSN 8. Get 2 months = FREE*.=20 _____________________________________________________ List services made = available by First Step Internet, serving the communities of the Palouse = since=20 1994. http://www.fsr.net mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com=20 =AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF= =AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF= =AF=AF=AF ------=_NextPart_000_00C9_01C33BC6.A1A69C40-- From sunilramalingam@hotmail.com Thu Jun 26 17:50:48 2003 From: sunilramalingam@hotmail.com (Sunil Ramalingam) Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2003 09:50:48 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] US Government booted out of your bedroom Message-ID:

The waste was caused by the prosecutor who decided to proceed with this case, after their original information turned out to be false.

Sunil


>From: "Dan Carscallen"
>To:
>Subject: Re: [Vision2020] US Government booted out of your bedroom
>Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2003 09:37:59 -0700
>
>The Supreme Court spending time ruling on this decision is more wasteful of my tax dollars than any sodomy laws on the books that nobody enforced anyway. At least I've never been worried about the Feds busting down my bedroom door to catch me in a salacious act.
>
>DC

STOP MORE SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* From curley@turbonet.com Thu Jun 26 18:10:07 2003 From: curley@turbonet.com (Mike Curley) Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2003 10:10:07 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] MSD Pay and Tenure--a reply In-Reply-To: <011c01c33b75$02493370$0bb27883@DMCLAPTOP2> Message-ID: <200306261702.h5QH2fQ46246@fsr.com> Mr. Courtney wrote: > The bottom line: backers of the levies have been screaming > that MSD teachers are underpaid; and that we need to raise > their salaries to benefit the kids. With regard to the most recent levy, with which I have a degree of familiarity, your statement is completely wrong. No one said anything about raising teacher salaries. There was NO money in the levy projected for teacher salary increases. The increased funds were necessary to maintain programs at the various levels, elementary, junior high, and high school. The prior levy (Nov. 2001) that was defeated DID include money projected for salary increases. The Board, at the urging of the then recently-appointed superintendent Candis Donicht, DID increase salaries by one-half percent last year in the face of the budget problems and state holdbacks. I thought that violated a trust of the voters by spending money contrary to the "advertising", but that is certainly a personal opinion. Regardless of that, no one--the Board, members of the Citizens for Quality Education or any other person testified at the public hearings, suggested on this forum, or otherwise promoted the levy as a salary increase mechanism. The school board has suggested a number of times that a levy be proposed strictly to fund salary increases. The union has repeatedly rejected that idea. By the way, negotiations are currently under way for next year's salary for teachers, administrators, and all staff. Minutes of the discussions should be available at the district office. Mike Curley From melyndah@wsu.edu Thu Jun 26 18:24:43 2003 From: melyndah@wsu.edu (Melynda Huskey) Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2003 10:24:43 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] US Government booted out of your bedroom In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.0.20030626102002.03235970@mail.wsu.edu> Actually, those of us who could have been prosecuted under the Idaho statute are grateful today to that Texas prosecutor: thanks to his homophobia, we ultimately triumphed. Raise those champagne glasses high! There are at this very moment people in jail who were prosecuted and sentenced under sodomy laws around the country--and others who appear on sex offender registries and are barred from holding state licenses, etc,. because they were sexually active with another consenting adult in the privacy of their homes. From where I sit, there's no waste at all. You might not have been worried, Dan, but some of us had to be. Melynda Huskey At 09:50 AM 6/26/2003 -0700, Sunil Ramalingam wrote: >The waste was caused by the prosecutor who decided to proceed with this >case, after their original information turned out to be false. > >Sunil > > > >From: "Dan Carscallen" > >To: > >Subject: Re: [Vision2020] US Government booted out of your bedroom > >Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2003 09:37:59 -0700 > > > >The Supreme Court spending time ruling on this decision is more wasteful > of my tax dollars than any sodomy laws on the books that nobody enforced > anyway. At least I've never been worried about the Feds busting down my > bedroom door to catch me in a salacious act. > > > >DC > > >---------- >STOP MORE SPAM with the new MSN 8 and >get 2 months FREE* _____________________________________________________ >List services made available by First Step Internet, serving the >communities of the Palouse since 1994. http://www.fsr.net >mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com >ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ From donovanarnold@hotmail.com Thu Jun 26 19:06:09 2003 From: donovanarnold@hotmail.com (Donovan Arnold) Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2003 11:06:09 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] US Government booted out of your bedroom Message-ID:

Melynda,

Dan Carscallen must not realize that these laws are enforced. People don't realize that millions more were spent on the prosecution of sexual acts then were spent on this Supreme Court decision. It was the prosecution of these laws that kept leading to the supreme court not the other away around. Because states like Texas that have bigots in their state with a crap load of money that is saved by denying accused Black people proper legal defense, they have violated the constitution and thus lost the rights to govern themselves. Which is great, if they can't follow the laws of Constitution they should be babysat by the rest of the country. June 26th 2003 will go down in history as Brown vs The Board of Education did, as a serious advancement in Human Civil Rights and a blow to bigots everywhere.

Donovan J Arnold

>From: Melynda Huskey
>To: vision2020@moscow.com
>Subject: Re: [Vision2020] US Government booted out of your bedroom
>Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2003 10:24:43 -0700
>
>Actually, those of us who could have been prosecuted under the Idaho
>statute are grateful today to that Texas prosecutor: thanks to his
>homophobia, we ultimately triumphed. Raise those champagne glasses
>high!
>
>There are at this very moment people in jail who were prosecuted and
>sentenced under sodomy laws around the country--and others who
>appear on sex offender registries and are barred from holding state
>licenses, etc,. because they were sexually active with another
>consenting adult in the privacy of their homes. From where I sit,
>there's no waste at all. You might not have been worried, Dan, but
>some of us had to be.
>
>Melynda Huskey
>
>
>At 09:50 AM 6/26/2003 -0700, Sunil Ramalingam wrote:
>
>>The waste was caused by the prosecutor who decided to proceed with
>>this case, after their original information turned out to be false.
>>
>>Sunil
>>
>>
>> >From: "Dan Carscallen"
>> >To:
>> >Subject: Re: [Vision2020] US Government booted out of your
>>bedroom
>> >Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2003 09:37:59 -0700
>> >
>> >The Supreme Court spending time ruling on this decision is more
>>wasteful of my tax dollars than any sodomy laws on the books that
>>nobody enforced anyway. At least I've never been worried about the
>>Feds busting down my bedroom door to catch me in a salacious act.
>> >
>> >DC
>>
>>
>>----------
>>STOP MORE SPAM with the new
>>MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE*
>>_____________________________________________________ List services
>>made available by First Step Internet, serving the communities of
>>the Palouse since 1994. http://www.fsr.net
>>mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com
>>ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ
>
>
>_____________________________________________________
>List services made available by First Step Internet, serving the
>communities of the Palouse since 1994.
>http://www.fsr.net
>mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com
>ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ

Tired of spam? Get advanced junk mail protection with MSN 8. From jdanahy@turbonet.com Thu Jun 26 19:22:49 2003 From: jdanahy@turbonet.com (John Danahy) Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2003 11:22:49 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] Moscow and Water Message-ID: <000001c33c0f$f632db90$e274e4ce@laurie3zo89bgq> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0001_01C33BD5.49D40390 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Monday evening, the Moscow City Council decided that the way to solve our water crisis was to have a voluntary ban on outdoor watering between 9am and 6pm. Today, three days later, the Moscow School District was watering the grass at Russell School at 10am, using a leaky hose and standard air delivered sprinklers. At 11 am I noticed someone watering plants at the 1912 Building by hand using a hose. The action of the council was clearly designed to be feel good propaganda and not a meaningful response. I examined my water bill payments for all of 2002. My payments did not significantly change from month to month except for July and August. However, I do not know if the change was due to increased use or the surcharge the city puts on summer use. I suspect some increase in usage but mostly the increase is the result of the surcharge.. I realize that the city claim of doubled pumping of water is probably true. But, when the city sends out a survey that infers private homeowners are solely responsible for excessive water use, and suggests these home owners should voluntarily cut back, it is making an unsupported assumption. I do not believe that homeowners are responsible for the doubling of water use in the summer. Certainly, some use much more, but enough to double the pumping?? Hardly! What is the city's metered water use month by month?? How about the county?? School district?? Other civic and governmental organizations?? How much does the city pay for water?? How about our malls? The fountain in downtown and at the entrance to UI? The council should take this situation seriously. Last years ban was largely ignored by the individual home owner. The council claim that the water department was "broke", followed by drastic increases in fees, followed by the senior administrative staff getting pay increases on par with Spokane and Twin Falls, speaks to a city council with a severe lack of credibility. Let's start with a complete examination of all water use in Moscow and what could be done differently. Let's examine recycling water where we can, being efficient with water use, not just at home but in all aspects of the community. Let's see the city step up to its responsibilities. Yes, the aquifer is a gun pointed at the head of this community, but it is the city council's finger on the trigger! At the rate it is falling, and considering water as a limiting factor, can this community continue to support a 13,000 student university, much less the projected increase to 15,000? John jdanahy@turbonet.com ------=_NextPart_000_0001_01C33BD5.49D40390 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

On Monday evening, the Moscow City Council decided = that the way to solve our water crisis was to have a voluntary ban on outdoor = watering between 9am and 6pm.  Today, three days later, the = Moscow School District was watering the grass at = Russell School at 10am, using a leaky hose and standard air = delivered sprinklers.  At 11 am I noticed someone watering plants at the 1912 Building by hand using a hose.  The action of the council was clearly designed to be feel = good propaganda and not a meaningful response.

 

I examined my water bill payments for all of = 2002.  My payments did not significantly change from month to month except for = July and August.  However, I do not know if the change was due to increased = use or the surcharge the city puts on summer use.  I suspect some increase = in usage but mostly the increase is the result of the = surcharge..

 

I realize that the city claim of doubled pumping of = water is probably true.  But, when the city sends out a survey that infers = private homeowners are solely responsible for excessive water use, and suggests = these home owners should voluntarily cut back, it is making an unsupported assumption.  I do not believe that homeowners are responsible for = the doubling of water use in the summer.  Certainly, some use much = more, but enough to double the pumping??  Hardly!

 

What is the city’s metered water use month by month??  How about the county??  School district??  Other = civic and governmental organizations??  How much does the city pay for water??  How about our malls?  The fountain in downtown and at = the entrance to UI?

 

The council should take this situation = seriously.  Last years ban was largely ignored by the individual home owner.  The = council claim that the water department was “broke”, followed by = drastic increases in fees, followed by the senior administrative staff getting = pay increases on par with Spokane and Twin Falls, speaks to a city = council with a severe lack of credibility.

 

Let’s start with a complete examination of all = water use in Moscow and what could be done differently.  Let’s examine recycling water where we can, = being efficient with water use, not just at home but in all aspects of the = community.  Let’s see the city step up to its responsibilities.  Yes, the aquifer is a gun pointed at the head of this community, but it is the = city council’s finger on the trigger!

 

At the rate it is falling, and considering water as a limiting factor, can this community continue to support a 13,000 student university, much less the projected increase to = 15,000?

 

John

jdanahy@turbonet.com

 

 

 

------=_NextPart_000_0001_01C33BD5.49D40390-- From sslund@moscow.com Thu Jun 26 19:26:14 2003 From: sslund@moscow.com (Saundra Lund) Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2003 11:26:14 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] US Government booted out of your bedroom In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <007a01c33c10$6d52ebc0$6501a8c0@pooh> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_007B_01C33BD5.C0F413C0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable What a truly wonderful day today has turned out to be . . . thanks so much, Donavan, for sharing this most excellent news! =20 We've still got a long way to go, baby, but this is a move in the Right direction. =20 =20 Saundra Lund Moscow, Idaho The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good people to do nothing. Edmund Burke -----Original Message----- From: vision2020-admin@moscow.com [mailto:vision2020-admin@moscow.com] On Behalf Of Donovan Arnold Sent: Thursday, June 26, 2003 9:30 AM To: vision2020@moscow.com Subject: [Vision2020] US Government booted out of your bedroom Good News! The United States Supreme Court in a 6-3 decision overruled Bowers VS. Hardwick. This overthrows the state laws to regulate sodomy and other sexual acts done by two consenting adults in their own bedroom.=20 Justice Scalia, in the "retarded statement of the century", who was on the losing side, stated that this means that we can't regulate masturbation in the privacy of one's home either. I guess this now means 98% of men in the US are now no longer criminals.=20 I am extremely pleased that tax dollars will no longer be used to regulate the personal behavior between two adults in there own home. Now maybe the government can concentrate on the real problems facing this nation like the economy, health care, education, and poverty. Check out the story here. http://www.cnn.com/2003/LAW/06/26/scotus.sodomy/index.html =20 Donovan J Arnold _____ =20 Add photos to your messages with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. _____________________________________________________ List services made available by First Step Internet, serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994. http://www.fsr.net mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com =AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF= =AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF= =AF=AF=AF=20 ------=_NextPart_000_007B_01C33BD5.C0F413C0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message
What a truly = wonderful day=20 today has turned out to be . . . thanks so much, Donavan, for sharing=20 this most excellent news!
 
We've still got = a long way=20 to go, baby, but this is a move in the Right = direction.
 
 
Saundra=20 Lund
Moscow, Idaho

The only thing necessary for the = triumph of=20 evil is for good people to do nothing.
Edmund = Burke
-----Original Message-----
From: = vision2020-admin@moscow.com=20 [mailto:vision2020-admin@moscow.com] On Behalf Of Donovan=20 Arnold
Sent: Thursday, June 26, 2003 9:30 AM
To:=20 vision2020@moscow.com
Subject: [Vision2020] US Government = booted out=20 of your bedroom

Good News!

The United States Supreme Court in a 6-3 decision overruled Bowers = VS.=20 Hardwick. This overthrows the state laws to regulate sodomy and other = sexual=20 acts done by two consenting adults in their own bedroom. =

Justice Scalia, in the "retarded statement of the century", who = was on=20 the losing side, stated that this means that we can't regulate = masturbation in=20 the privacy of one's home either.  I guess this now means 98% of = men in the=20 US are now no longer criminals.

I am extremely pleased that tax dollars will no longer be used to = regulate=20 the personal behavior between two adults in there own home. Now maybe = the=20 government can concentrate on the real problems facing this nation like = the=20 economy, health care, education, and poverty.
Check out the story = here.

http://www.cnn.com/2003/LAW/06/26/scotus.sodomy/index.htm= l
 
Donovan J Arnold


Add photos to your messages with MSN 8. Get 2 months = FREE*.=20 _____________________________________________________ List services made = available by First Step Internet, serving the communities of the Palouse = since=20 1994. http://www.fsr.net mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com=20 =AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF= =AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF= =AF=AF=AF ------=_NextPart_000_007B_01C33BD5.C0F413C0-- From donovanarnold@hotmail.com Thu Jun 26 20:13:40 2003 From: donovanarnold@hotmail.com (Donovan Arnold) Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2003 12:13:40 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] MSD Pay and Tenure--a reply Message-ID:

Mr. Curley,

Please do not confuse Dale and others that want to believe the MSD is wasting money with concepts like FACTS! They want to believe that MSD is wasteful, greedy, and incompetent for one basic reason, property taxes. Property taxes are outrageous and extremely painful for most people in Moscow because our inability to build smart, affordable housing. So if you believe that the MSD, which is the largest user of property taxes, is using $100 bills for toilet paper, then that gives you an out and someone or something else to blame. Just like vouchers are way out for people not to work with the community to better the local educational system. With vouchers, they can relieve themselves of the responsibility of working in the community by benefiting from the labor of others who worked to make their community a better place with better schools. It also allows them to double their money from the government. They get the money of a public education themselves when they we! re children, then they get the money again when they send a child to another school. This maximizes their tax dollars by reducing the economy by paying a school system elsewhere and reduces the amount of money to educate children in the community they reside in that would still not be able to afford going to another school even with a voucher.

Donovan J Arnold


Help STOP SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* From shawnc@outtrack.com Thu Jun 26 21:11:42 2003 From: shawnc@outtrack.com (Shawn Clabough) Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2003 13:11:42 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] Moscow and Water Message-ID: <89B16A73680AD31194A30090274FFC422E88C3@cdsl010.cda.micron.net> This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C33C1F.28CA38A0 Content-Type: text/plain Perhaps the MSD is using water similarly to the UI. See http://www.today.uidaho.edu/details.asp?id=2206 &sctn=news Shawn -----Original Message----- From: John Danahy [mailto:jdanahy@turbonet.com] Sent: Thursday, June 26, 2003 11:23 AM To: Vision2020 Subject: [Vision2020] Moscow and Water On Monday evening, the Moscow City Council decided that the way to solve our water crisis was to have a voluntary ban on outdoor watering between 9am and 6pm. Today, three days later, the Moscow School District was watering the grass at Russell School at 10am, using a leaky hose and standard air delivered sprinklers. At 11 am I noticed someone watering plants at the 1912 Building by hand using a hose. The action of the council was clearly designed to be feel good propaganda and not a meaningful response. I examined my water bill payments for all of 2002. My payments did not significantly change from month to month except for July and August. However, I do not know if the change was due to increased use or the surcharge the city puts on summer use. I suspect some increase in usage but mostly the increase is the result of the surcharge.. I realize that the city claim of doubled pumping of water is probably true. But, when the city sends out a survey that infers private homeowners are solely responsible for excessive water use, and suggests these home owners should voluntarily cut back, it is making an unsupported assumption. I do not believe that homeowners are responsible for the doubling of water use in the summer. Certainly, some use much more, but enough to double the pumping?? Hardly! What is the city's metered water use month by month?? How about the county?? School district?? Other civic and governmental organizations?? How much does the city pay for water?? How about our malls? The fountain in downtown and at the entrance to UI? The council should take this situation seriously. Last years ban was largely ignored by the individual home owner. The council claim that the water department was "broke", followed by drastic increases in fees, followed by the senior administrative staff getting pay increases on par with Spokane and Twin Falls, speaks to a city council with a severe lack of credibility. Let's start with a complete examination of all water use in Moscow and what could be done differently. Let's examine recycling water where we can, being efficient with water use, not just at home but in all aspects of the community. Let's see the city step up to its responsibilities. Yes, the aquifer is a gun pointed at the head of this community, but it is the city council's finger on the trigger! At the rate it is falling, and considering water as a limiting factor, can this community continue to support a 13,000 student university, much less the projected increase to 15,000? John jdanahy@turbonet.com ------_=_NextPart_001_01C33C1F.28CA38A0 Content-Type: text/html Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message
Perhaps the MSD is using water similarly to the UI.  See = http://www.today.uidaho.edu/details.asp?id=3D2206&sctn=3Dnews=
 
Shawn
-----Original Message-----
From: = John Danahy=20 [mailto:jdanahy@turbonet.com]
Sent: Thursday, June 26, = 2003 11:23=20 AM
To: Vision2020
Subject: [Vision2020] Moscow = and=20 Water

On Monday evening, the = Moscow City=20 Council decided that the way to solve our water crisis was to have a = voluntary=20 ban on outdoor watering between 9am and 6pm.  Today, three days later, the=20 Moscow School District was watering the grass at = Russell School at = 10am, using a leaky hose = and standard=20 air delivered sprinklers.  At 11 am I noticed someone watering plants at = the 1912=20 Building by hand using a hose.  The action of the council was = clearly=20 designed to be feel good propaganda and not a meaningful=20 response.

 

I examined my water = bill payments=20 for all of 2002.  My payments did not significantly change from = month to=20 month except for July and August.  However, I do not know if the = change=20 was due to increased use or the surcharge the city puts on summer = use.  I=20 suspect some increase in usage but mostly the increase is the result = of the=20 surcharge..

 

I realize that the city = claim of=20 doubled pumping of water is probably true.  But, when the city = sends out=20 a survey that infers private homeowners are solely responsible for = excessive=20 water use, and suggests these home owners should voluntarily cut = back, it is=20 making an unsupported assumption.  I do not believe that = homeowners are=20 responsible for the doubling of water use in the summer.  = Certainly, some=20 use much more, but enough to double the pumping?? =20 Hardly!

 

What is the city's = metered water=20 use month by month??  How about the county??  School=20 district??  Other civic and governmental organizations??  = How much=20 does the city pay for water??  How about our malls?  The = fountain in=20 downtown and at the entrance to UI?

 

The council should take = this=20 situation seriously.  Last years ban was largely ignored by the=20 individual home owner.  The council claim that the water = department was=20 "broke", followed by drastic increases in fees, followed by the = senior=20 administrative staff getting pay increases on par with = Spokane and = Twin = Falls, speaks to a city = council with a=20 severe lack of credibility.

 

Let's start with a = complete=20 examination of all water use in Moscow and what could be done = differently.  Let's=20 examine recycling water where we can, being efficient with water use, = not just=20 at home but in all aspects of the community.  Let's see the city = step up=20 to its responsibilities.  Yes, the aquifer is a gun pointed at = the head=20 of this community, but it is the city council's finger on the=20 trigger!

 

At the rate it is = falling, and=20 considering water as a limiting factor, can this community continue = to support=20 a 13,000 student university, much less the projected increase to=20 15,000?

 

John

jdanahy@turbonet.com

 

 

 

------_=_NextPart_001_01C33C1F.28CA38A0-- From strand@pacsim.com Thu Jun 26 22:26:52 2003 From: strand@pacsim.com (Bill Strand) Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2003 14:26:52 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] U of I HealthPlan Message-ID: <003501c33c29$a962dc60$edb7130a@engstrand> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0036_01C33BEE.FD040460 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi folks, I just received my list of benefits for the new U of I health plan. For those of you who may be unfamiliar with the situation, U of I is switching carriers from Blue Shield to Blue Cross. U of I, like most major employers, is requiring that the employees shoulder an increased cost of their health care benefits. This is to be expected in severe financial times. What I found as objectionable in the new plan is that U of I is pressuring people to move their prescription business away from the city of Moscow. They do this by offering up to a 60% discount if you order your medications from Beaverton Oregon rather than use your local pharmacy. In addition, they have eliminated the cap on out-of-pocket prescription expense. For my family, our yearly prescription expense will increase by over $1500. That was bad enough, but expected given the present financial situation that U of I finds itself in. However, for the primary employer in Moscow to pressure its employees and their families to take their business away from the local pharmacies shows a disregard for the city that hosts this University. I will certainly be making my feelings known to both the University as well as the citizens of Moscow. Bill Strand ------=_NextPart_000_0036_01C33BEE.FD040460 Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi folks,

 

I just received my list of benefits for the new U of = I health plan. For those of you who may be unfamiliar with the situation, = U of I is switching carriers from Blue Shield to Blue Cross. U of I, like most = major employers, is requiring that the employees shoulder an increased cost of = their health care benefits. This is to be expected in severe financial = times.

 

What I found as objectionable in the new plan is that = U of I is pressuring people to move their prescription business away from the = city of Moscow. They do this by offering up to a 60% discount if you order your medications from = Beaverton = Oregon rather than use your local pharmacy. In addition, they have eliminated the cap on = out-of-pocket prescription expense.

 

For my family, our yearly prescription expense will = increase by over $1500. That was bad enough, but expected given the present = financial situation that U of I finds itself in. However, for the primary employer in = Moscow to pressure its employees and their families to take their business away from the = local pharmacies shows a disregard for the city that hosts = this University. I will certainly be making my feelings known to both the = University as well as the citizens of Moscow.

 

Bill Strand

 <= /font>

------=_NextPart_000_0036_01C33BEE.FD040460-- From auntiestablishment@hotmail.com Thu Jun 26 22:25:38 2003 From: auntiestablishment@hotmail.com (Joan Opyr) Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2003 14:25:38 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] US Government booted out of your bedroom Message-ID: Dan Carscallen writes: >At least I've never been worried about the Feds busting down my bedroom >door to catch me in a >salacious act. That's oversharing, Dan, but you and your partner do have my sympathy. A felon no more, Joan Opyr _________________________________________________________________ STOP MORE SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From london@moscow.com Fri Jun 27 00:29:52 2003 From: london@moscow.com (Bill London) Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2003 16:29:52 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] US Government booted out of your bedroom References: Message-ID: <3EFB81EF.6CCE7DB4@moscow.com> --------------068373918897C329A6B73DC3 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Noting Dan's posting (below), especially the phrase "I've never been worried about the Feds busting down my bedroom door"..... Yeah. I don't really worry about that either. Maybe that's because what happens there is not only consensual, but hetero. (and boring). Now, what if you were gay. Your perspective would change immediately on that issue, I would think. You would be very concerned with not only your rights, but the legal limitations put on police. I do not think being gay should be a crime, and consensual gay sex should also not be illegal. And I think that needs to be clear and obvious. So I am glad the recent decision makes that decision. That is not a waste of time or money. BL > The Supreme Court spending time ruling on this decision is more > wasteful of my tax dollars than any sodomy laws on the books that > nobody enforced anyway. At least I've never been worried about the > Feds busting down my bedroom door to catch me in a salacious act. > > > >DC > --------------068373918897C329A6B73DC3 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Noting Dan's posting (below), especially the phrase "I've never been worried about the Feds busting down my bedroom door".....
Yeah.  I don't really worry about that either.   Maybe that's because what happens there is not only consensual, but hetero. (and boring).
Now, what if you were gay.  Your perspective would change immediately on that issue, I would think.  You would be very concerned with not only your rights, but the legal limitations put on police.
I do not think being gay should be a crime, and consensual gay sex should also not be illegal.  And I think that needs to be clear and obvious.  So I am glad the recent decision makes that decision.  That is not a waste of time or money.
BL
 
The Supreme Court spending time ruling on this decision is more wasteful of my tax dollars than any sodomy laws on the books that nobody enforced anyway. At least I've never been worried about the Feds busting down my bedroom door to catch me in a salacious act.
>
>DC
--------------068373918897C329A6B73DC3-- From sdredge@yahoo.com Fri Jun 27 00:44:52 2003 From: sdredge@yahoo.com (Scott Dredge) Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2003 16:44:52 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Vision2020] US Government booted out of your bedroom In-Reply-To: <3EFB81EF.6CCE7DB4@moscow.com> Message-ID: <20030626234452.32157.qmail@web10504.mail.yahoo.com> > -- Dan wrote -- > > > The Supreme Court spending time ruling on this > decision is more > > wasteful of my tax dollars than any sodomy laws on > the books that > > nobody enforced anyway. > The law was enforced. This is why it wound up in the supreme court. It all started because a neighbor with a grudge faked a distress call to police and told them that a man was going crazy in an apartment. The police went to the apartment, pushed open the door, and found the two men. The two men involved in this case were each fined $200 and spent a night in jail for a misdemeanor sex charge. __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! http://sbc.yahoo.com From london@moscow.com Fri Jun 27 00:57:51 2003 From: london@moscow.com (Bill London) Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2003 16:57:51 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] Moscow and Water References: <000001c33c0f$f632db90$e274e4ce@laurie3zo89bgq> Message-ID: <3EFB887F.5CF80569@moscow.com> --------------1FC57B8AB4A73F302853299B Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I recently received a questionaire from the City of Moscow Water Department, regarding water use and water conservation. While I thought the questions and options about what our family was willing to do to save water were relevant, I was struck by the total lack of questions about the most obvious (to me) reason why water mining on the Palouse is both continuing and escalating: new home construction. Even if all of us stabilize our present water use, all those new homes around Moscow are increasing our total use. And new homes would use more than older homes, in landscaping anyway, because the new trees, lawns and shrubs take much more water than established plantings. So, here is my question to City Supervisor Gary Riedner: If the city is considering how to cut water usage in Moscow, is the city investigating the impact of new housing in Moscow, the option of a limitation on such housing, or even a housing moratorium? BL John Danahy wrote: > On Monday evening, the Moscow City Council decided that the way to > solve our water crisis was to have a voluntary ban on outdoor watering > between 9am and 6pm. Today, three days later, the MoscowSchool > District was watering the grass at RussellSchool at 10am, using a > leaky hose and standard air delivered sprinklers. At 11 am I noticed > someone watering plants at the 1912 Building by hand using a hose. > The action of the council was clearly designed to be feel good > propaganda and not a meaningful response. > > I examined my water bill payments for all of 2002. My payments did > not significantly change from month to month except for July and > August. However, I do not know if the change was due to increased use > or the surcharge the city puts on summer use. I suspect some increase > in usage but mostly the increase is the result of the surcharge.. > > I realize that the city claim of doubled pumping of water is probably > true. But, when the city sends out a survey that infers private > homeowners are solely responsible for excessive water use, and > suggests these home owners should voluntarily cut back, it is making > an unsupported assumption. I do not believe that homeowners are > responsible for the doubling of water use in the summer. Certainly, > some use much more, but enough to double the pumping?? Hardly! > > What is the city’s metered water use month by month?? How about the > county?? School district?? Other civic and governmental > organizations?? How much does the city pay for water?? How about our > malls? The fountain in downtown and at the entrance to UI? > > The council should take this situation seriously. Last years ban was > largely ignored by the individual home owner. The council claim that > the water department was “broke”, followed by drastic increases in > fees, followed by the senior administrative staff getting pay > increases on par with Spokane and Twin Falls, speaks to a city council > with a severe lack of credibility. > > Let’s start with a complete examination of all water use in Moscow and > what could be done differently. Let’s examine recycling water where > we can, being efficient with water use, not just at home but in all > aspects of the community. Let’s see the city step up to its > responsibilities. Yes, the aquifer is a gun pointed at the head of > this community, but it is the city council’s finger on the trigger! > > At the rate it is falling, and considering water as a limiting factor, > can this community continue to support a 13,000 student university, > much less the projected increase to 15,000? > > John > > jdanahy@turbonet.com > --------------1FC57B8AB4A73F302853299B Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I recently received a questionaire from the City of Moscow Water Department, regarding water use and water conservation.
While I thought the questions and options about what our family was willing to do to save water were relevant, I was struck by the total lack of questions about the most obvious (to me) reason why water mining on the Palouse is both continuing and escalating: new home construction.
Even if all of us stabilize our present water use, all those new homes around Moscow are increasing our total use.  And new homes would use more than older homes, in landscaping anyway, because the new trees, lawns and shrubs take much more water than established plantings.
So, here is my question to City Supervisor Gary Riedner:  If the city is considering how to cut water usage in Moscow, is the city investigating the impact of new housing in Moscow, the option of a limitation on such housing, or even a housing moratorium?
BL

John Danahy wrote:

On Monday evening, the Moscow City Council decided that the way to solve our water crisis was to have a voluntary ban on outdoor watering between 9am and 6pm.  Today, three days later, the MoscowSchool District was watering the grass at RussellSchool at 10am, using a leaky hose and standard air delivered sprinklers.  At 11 am I noticed someone watering plants at the 1912 Building by hand using a hose.  The action of the council was clearly designed to be feel good propaganda and not a meaningful response.

I examined my water bill payments for all of 2002.  My payments did not significantly change from month to month except for July and August.  However, I do not know if the change was due to increased use or the surcharge the city puts on summer use.  I suspect some increase in usage but mostly the increase is the result of the surcharge..

I realize that the city claim of doubled pumping of water is probably true.  But, when the city sends out a survey that infers private homeowners are solely responsible for excessive water use, and suggests these home owners should voluntarily cut back, it is making an unsupported assumption.  I do not believe that homeowners are responsible for the doubling of water use in the summer.  Certainly, some use much more, but enough to double the pumping??  Hardly!

What is the city’s metered water use month by month??  How about the county??  School district??  Other civic and governmental organizations??  How much does the city pay for water??  How about our malls?  The fountain in downtown and at the entrance to UI?

The council should take this situation seriously.  Last years ban was largely ignored by the individual home owner.  The council claim that the water department was “broke”, followed by drastic increases in fees, followed by the senior administrative staff getting pay increases on par with Spokane and Twin Falls, speaks to a city council with a severe lack of credibility.

Let’s start with a complete examination of all water use in Moscow and what could be done differently.  Let’s examine recycling water where we can, being efficient with water use, not just at home but in all aspects of the community.  Let’s see the city step up to its responsibilities.  Yes, the aquifer is a gun pointed at the head of this community, but it is the city council’s finger on the trigger!

At the rate it is falling, and considering water as a limiting factor, can this community continue to support a 13,000 student university, much less the projected increase to 15,000?

John

jdanahy@turbonet.com

--------------1FC57B8AB4A73F302853299B-- From ted_moffett@hotmail.com Fri Jun 27 01:08:18 2003 From: ted_moffett@hotmail.com (Ted Moffett) Date: Fri, 27 Jun 2003 00:08:18 +0000 Subject: [Vision2020] Public Info, Libel and First Step Message-ID: Dale, Tom et. al. I can enter V2020 archives via Google by entering my e-mail address into the Google search window. Still, this takes three steps to view an actual post's content: going to Google, entering instructions into the search window, then when getting the V2020 archive page you must click on a specific post to view the content. However, when someone uses the subject heading to make an accusation, the subject heading will show up on the V2020 archive page in the list of posts, so this potential libelous content is viewed with more ease. I think this use of the subject heading to slip comments into peoples e-mail inboxes is a deliberate trick to get the message accross before someone can delete the V2020 post. I just tried to use Google to search the internet for the actual libelous comment in question that was posted in a V2020 post in the subject heading. What I got back was rather ironic, because rather than the V2020 post in question, I got numerous hits for publications, or references to publications, of one sort or another, authored by the personage that was the subject of the potentially libelous statement. I did not find any hit for the potentially libelous V2020 post in question. So I still think my point about comparing the very public and easy accessibility of info from a newspaper, to the more complicated and less assessable "public" info on the V2020 archives, is valid. I should have simply said it takes three steps on the internet (numerous is too vague) for someone who is not a V2020 subscriber to actually view a V2020 post. Maybe there is a more direct way. But there is a major difference between a newspaper on the newsstand that has a headline that reads "TED MOFFETT ACCUSED OF ADULTERY" compared to a V2020 post that with the same subject heading. Someone passing by on the sidewalk can accidentally read such a headline, printed in a publication where there is a presumption that the info has been checked for accuracy. First Step does not check V2020 posts for accuracy, and no person of average intelligence would believe that V2020 posts are meant to be vetted factual news reports, unless they know nothing about public list serves. First Step might be scarred or discouraged enough to drop V2020 if someone complained or threatened a libel suit, even if the suit would fail, because they offer V2020 free of charge, so why bother with headaches? But a suit against the author of a potentially libelous V2020 post would be more likely to succeed. Still, damage to the person being libeled must be shown in court for a successful libel suit, and a V2020 post has limited potential to damage anyone's reputation or livelihood. Consider the scandalous falsehoods the Enquirer and the Star get away with every day! There have been some successful libel suits brought against the big yellow journalism rags, but they are still at it, printing the most fantastic falsehoods about people. Our First Amendment rights do appear to allow all sorts of offensive and false material to be made available, and immune from legal action, that many people think should not be allowed. But then this is the price of free speech, advocates will claim. Ted >From: "Tom Hansen" >Reply-To: >To: "Ted Moffett" , >CC: >Subject: RE: [Vision2020] Re: enough... MSD Pay and Tenure >Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2003 18:59:31 -0700 > >Ted Moffett stated: > > >" . . . my comments on the numerous steps taken to view the V2020 archive >were misleading." > >I realize that "numerous" is in the eye of the beholder, but after clicking >on three very conspicuous links I found myself at: > >http://lists2.fsr.net/pipermail/vision2020/2003-June/author.html > >If "shooting the messenger" (replace with "suing an entity that provides a >service to the public") is not considered frivolous, then why haven't women >filed civil litigation against the phone company each time they received a >sexually explicit/suggestive telephone call? Certainly, Vision2020 is no >more monitored/managed than a local telephone call. > >Tom Hansen >Moscow, Idaho > _________________________________________________________________ The new MSN 8: advanced junk mail protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From thansen@moscow.com Fri Jun 27 02:37:56 2003 From: thansen@moscow.com (Tom Hansen) Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2003 18:37:56 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] US Government booted out of your bedroom In-Reply-To: <20030626234452.32157.qmail@web10504.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: What the United States Supreme Court is attempting to define for Texas are two simple words: "consenting adults". Had this taken place in Montana between a consenting adult and a squeemish sheep . . . Joke Time: There were citizens of Washington, Idaho, and Montana in a vehicle crossing over Lookout Pass into Montana when they spotted a sheep all tangled and mangled in some barbed wire, barely alive. The Washingtonian says, "I wish I had my cellular phone. I could call a veterinarian or the fire department and free that poor animal." The Idahoan says, "I wish I had my rifle. I could shoot that poor animal and put it out of its misery." Tha Montanan says, "I wish it was dark." Take care, Tom Hansen Moscow, Idaho From donovanarnold@hotmail.com Fri Jun 27 02:37:15 2003 From: donovanarnold@hotmail.com (Donovan Arnold) Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2003 18:37:15 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] Moscow and Water Message-ID:

Bill or anyone who can answer,

This may seem like a really stupid question, and probably is, but I must ask it anyway to anyone that may know. Where is all the water going? I understand people drink it, water plants, flush toilets, but why doesn't it all end back up where it came from, the ground? If I water the lawn, doesn't the water go back down into the ground or evaporate and go back into the air, condense, and then rain back down again and go back into the ground where we pump it back up again? I am not denying or implying that there is not a water problem, I am just curious as to how 18 inches a year of water can just disappear into thin air. It has to be somewhere, in some form, matter cannot just disappear as we understand physics today. I guess this is more of a geological or environmental question, but the only thing I think is that perhaps we are not recycling the water or weather patterns have changed contributing to the problem. Thanks!

Donovan J Arnold

>From: Bill London
>Reply-To: london@moscow.com
>To: gary riedner
>CC: Vision2020
>Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Moscow and Water
>Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2003 16:57:51 -0700
>
>I recently received a questionaire from the City of Moscow Water
>Department, regarding water use and water conservation.
>While I thought the questions and options about what our family was
>willing to do to save water were relevant, I was struck by the total
>lack of questions about the most obvious (to me) reason why water mining
>on the Palouse is both continuing and escalating: new home construction.
>
>Even if all of us stabilize our present water use, all those new homes
>around Moscow are increasing our total use. And new homes would use
>more than older homes, in landscaping anyway, because the new trees,
>lawns and shrubs take much more water than established plantings.
>So, here is my question to City Supervisor Gary Riedner: If the city is
>considering how to cut water usage in Moscow, is the city investigating
>the impact of new housing in Moscow, the option of a limitation on such
>housing, or even a housing moratorium?
>BL
>
>John Danahy wrote:
>
> > On Monday evening, the Moscow City Council decided that the way to
> > solve our water crisis was to have a voluntary ban on outdoor watering
> > between 9am and 6pm. Today, three days later, the MoscowSchool
> > District was watering the grass at RussellSchool at 10am, using a
> > leaky hose and standard air delivered sprinklers. At 11 am I noticed
> > someone watering plants at the 1912 Building by hand using a hose.
> > The action of the council was clearly designed to be feel good
> > propaganda and not a meaningful response.
> >
> > I examined my water bill payments for all of 2002. My payments did
> > not significantly change from month to month except for July and
> > August. However, I do not know if the change was due to increased use
> > or the surcharge the city puts on summer use. I suspect some increase
> > in usage but mostly the increase is the result of the surcharge..
> >
> > I realize that the city claim of doubled pumping of water is probably
> > true. But, when the city sends out a survey that infers private
> > homeowners are solely responsible for excessive water use, and
> > suggests these home owners should voluntarily cut back, it is making
> > an unsupported assumption. I do not believe that homeowners are
> > responsible for the doubling of water use in the summer. Certainly,
> > some use much more, but enough to double the pumping?? Hardly!
> >
> > What is the city’s metered water use month by month?? How about the
> > county?? School district?? Other civic and governmental
> > organizations?? How much does the city pay for water?? How about our
> > malls? The fountain in downtown and at the entrance to UI?
> >
> > The council should take this situation seriously. Last years ban was
> > largely ignored by the individual home owner. The council claim that
> > the water department was “broke”, followed by drastic increases in
> > fees, followed by the senior administrative staff getting pay
> > increases on par with Spokane and Twin Falls, speaks to a city council
> > with a severe lack of credibility.
> >
> > Let’s start with a complete examination of all water use in Moscow and
> > what could be done differently. Let’s examine recycling water where
> > we can, being efficient with water use, not just at home but in all
> > aspects of the community. Let’s see the city step up to its
> > responsibilities. Yes, the aquifer is a gun pointed at the head of
> > this community, but it is the city council’s finger on the trigger!
> >
> > At the rate it is falling, and considering water as a limiting factor,
> > can this community continue to support a 13,000 student university,
> > much less the projected increase to 15,000?
> >
> > John
> >
> > jdanahy@turbonet.com
> >

Tired of spam? Get advanced junk mail protection with MSN 8. From thansen@moscow.com Fri Jun 27 02:57:10 2003 From: thansen@moscow.com (Tom Hansen) Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2003 18:57:10 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] Moscow and Water In-Reply-To: Message-ID: To answer your question (by example), Mr. Arnold: My folks live in Los Angeles. I was raised in Los Angeles. California (especially Southern California) is experiencing "rolling brown-outs". Brown-outs are a sudden reduction in electricity. They are caused by a lack of sufficient power sources to provide electricity. Having grown up in Southern California, I know that Los Angeles is heavily dependent upon the Colorado River for water (that produces electricity). There are six other states that depend upon the Colorado River for hydro-electricity. To (finally) make a long story short, Southern California has been growing in population constantly for a long, long time. The "powers that be" in Southern California for all that time were not concerned with the future. They refused to see beyond next year. As a result, the population has been out-growing its support systems, hence "brown-outs". Moscow may be on a smaller scale, but the principal is the same. We MUST protect the aquifer. Take care, Tom Hansen Moscow, Idaho P.S. - For your general information, as a result of a recent major court decision, Southern California will be receiving 16% less water from the Colorado River in Fiscal Year 2004. From ted_moffett@hotmail.com Fri Jun 27 05:26:27 2003 From: ted_moffett@hotmail.com (Ted Moffett) Date: Fri, 27 Jun 2003 04:26:27 +0000 Subject: [Vision2020] US Government booted out of your bedroom Message-ID: All: Sodomy laws can also apply to heterosexual conduct. After just looking up "sodomy," it did not even mention gay or heterosexual distinctions in the definition. In fact, sodomy laws in Idaho refer, or did refer, to both heterosexual and gay sex, and include conduct that heterosexuals commonly engage in. The same sexual acts that can land a gay in jail can also land a heterosexual in jail in Idaho, or rather they once could. Info on this is at this link: http://www.yffn.org/spi/sodomy.html Of course heterosexuals in Idaho did not need to worry as much about these laws being enforced against them, but still, a zealous police department and prosecutor could use the law to harass someone. This is just like the ridiculous topless female law we have in Moscow. People said the police would not go around trying to zealously enforce the ordinance, but then why have bad law on the books at all? Ted >From: Bill London >Reply-To: london@moscow.com >To: Vision2020 >Subject: [Vision2020] US Government booted out of your bedroom >Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2003 16:29:52 -0700 > >Noting Dan's posting (below), especially the phrase "I've never been >worried about the Feds busting down my bedroom door"..... >Yeah. I don't really worry about that either. Maybe that's because >what happens there is not only consensual, but hetero. (and boring). >Now, what if you were gay. Your perspective would change immediately on >that issue, I would think. You would be very concerned with not only >your rights, but the legal limitations put on police. >I do not think being gay should be a crime, and consensual gay sex >should also not be illegal. And I think that needs to be clear and >obvious. So I am glad the recent decision makes that decision. That is >not a waste of time or money. >BL > > > > The Supreme Court spending time ruling on this decision is more > > wasteful of my tax dollars than any sodomy laws on the books that > > nobody enforced anyway. At least I've never been worried about the > > Feds busting down my bedroom door to catch me in a salacious act. > > > > > >DC > > _________________________________________________________________ MSN 8 with e-mail virus protection service: 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus From dale@courtneys.us Fri Jun 27 03:29:29 2003 From: dale@courtneys.us (Dale Courtney) Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2003 19:29:29 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] MSD Pay and Tenure--a reply References: <200306261702.h5QH2fQ46246@fsr.com> Message-ID: <012b01c33cbf$f6f705f0$1c317883@DMCLAPTOP2> As always, Mike Curley can be counted on to intelligently defend MSD when no one else will. I'd *love* to see someone official (school board, district office, etc) debate/overturn my figures. Fat chance. > With regard to the most recent levy, with which I have a > degree of familiarity, your statement is completely wrong. > No one said anything about raising teacher salaries. I wasn't trying to imply that the most recent levy was about pay raises for teachers. Some may remember that on this list about 9 months ago, I posted the student-to-teacher ratio at MSD. When I brought up this fact, I was told that the reason for not decreasing the number of teachers was to "right-size" the MSD classrooms. I further pointed out that: 1. MSD has the 2nd lowest student-to-teacher ratio in the state (next to Blaine County) 2. MSD inflation-adjusted spending has grown at 3.7 times the rate of enrollment growth (plus inflation). 3. Idaho's inflation-adjusted spending has grown at a rate of about 2 times enrollment growth. That means that MSD's spending has grown at a rate of nearly 2x that of the State's. 4. MSD is down 490 students in 10 years; a decrease of 21.3% Yet the MSD inflation-adjusted spending is up 100% in that same timeframe. There is no doubt in my mind that the liberals will attempt again to pass a levy in town. Why? Because as the number of MSD students decreases, the State and Federal funding to MSD decreases (duh!). However, MSD is unwilling to decrease its budget to match the decreasing number of students. I will continue to press this point until the liberals acknowledge what the rest of us have known all along -- this isn't *really* about educating children. Best, Dale Courtney Moscow, Idaho From dale@courtneys.us Fri Jun 27 16:16:12 2003 From: dale@courtneys.us (Dale Courtney) Date: Fri, 27 Jun 2003 08:16:12 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] MSD Pay and Tenure--a reply References: Message-ID: <012e01c33cbf$fb2c4b30$1c317883@DMCLAPTOP2> Donovan wrote: >Please do not confuse Dale and others that want to believe >the MSD is wasting money with concepts like FACTS! ROTFL! Well, it's very kind of you to attempt to dismiss my facts with the wave of your hand saying that I've not presented any facts. I'm a professor of Information Science and a statistician, and I've had my data vetted by a PhD Economist from UI,. You cannot wave a hand and dismiss my data as not presented. But, that's a typical liberal way of dealing with things they don't like. That's OK. Thinking people see thru that ploy. Best, Dale Courtney Moscow, Idaho From dale@courtneys.us Fri Jun 27 16:19:56 2003 From: dale@courtneys.us (Dale Courtney) Date: Fri, 27 Jun 2003 08:19:56 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] MSD Pay and Tenure--a reply Message-ID: <012f01c33cbf$fc0b6090$1c317883@DMCLAPTOP2> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0124_01C33C84.E4D0E1B0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Donovan wrote: > They want to believe that MSD is wasteful, greedy, and incompetent No, I never said that. > for >one basic reason, property taxes. Property taxes are outrageous and >extremely painful for most people in Moscow Uh, yea. You noticed. Let's see -- 50% of our property taxes to directly = to the MSD coffer. And this is how *you* explain that: > because our inability to build smart, affordable housing. Ah! The lack of smart, affordable housing has caused my property taxes = to MSD to bloat from all those levies . As they say in California: "yea, uh-huh, whatever". The argument just continues to fall apart from there: >Just like vouchers are way out for people not to work >with the community to better the local educational system. >With vouchers, they can relieve themselves of the responsibility >of working in the community by benefiting from the labor of others >who worked to make their community a better place with better >schools. This is also a *very* interesting argument. If there were vouchers, just *where* would those kids go to school? In the local community (as = opposed to Donovan's thinking, I guess, of bussing them out of state). It's absolutely *ridiculous* thinking that the only way you are going to = get community involvement is by having government schools. That's absolutely backwards from reality.=20 As has been pointed out many times, competition in education drives = prices down and quality up. Monopolies are always the worst possible option.=20 What the liberals are *really* afraid of is that parent will have = educational choice -- and parents may not choose what the liberals are feeding. This would probably only *really* hit home if every MSD parent had to = write a check for $1,000 every month of the school year (since the cost = at MSD is over $8,000 per child). I think if parents knew what was being = charged for the education they are getting, there would be quite the = little uproar.=20 Best, Dale Courtney Moscow, Idaho ------=_NextPart_000_0124_01C33C84.E4D0E1B0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Donovan wrote:
> They want to believe that MSD is wasteful, greedy, and=20 incompetent

No, I never said that.

> for
>one = basic=20 reason, property taxes. Property taxes are outrageous = and
>extremely=20 painful for most people in Moscow

Uh, yea. You noticed. Let's see = -- 50%=20 of our property taxes to directly to
the MSD coffer.

And this = is how=20 *you* explain that:
> because our inability to build smart, = affordable=20 housing.

Ah! The lack of smart, affordable housing has caused my = property=20 taxes to
MSD to bloat from all those levies .

As they say in=20 California: "yea, uh-huh, whatever".

The argument just continues = to fall=20 apart from there:

>Just like vouchers are way out for people = not to=20 work
>with the community to better the local educational=20 system.
>With vouchers, they can relieve themselves of the=20 responsibility
>of working in the community by benefiting from the = labor=20 of others
>who worked to make their community a better place with=20 better
>schools.

This is also a *very* interesting = argument. If=20 there were vouchers, just
*where* would those kids go to school? In = the local=20 community (as opposed to
Donovan's thinking, I guess, of bussing them = out of=20 state).

It's absolutely *ridiculous* thinking that the only way = you are=20 going to get
community involvement is by having government schools. = That's=20 absolutely
backwards from reality.

As has been pointed out = many=20 times, competition in education drives prices
down and quality up. = Monopolies=20 are always the worst possible option.
 
What the liberals are *really* afraid of is that parent will have=20 educational
choice -- and parents may not choose what the liberals = are=20 feeding.
 
This would probably only *really* hit home if every MSD parent had = to write=20 a check for $1,000 every month of the school year (since the cost at MSD = is over=20 $8,000 per child). I think if parents knew what was being charged for = the=20 education they are getting, there would be quite the little uproar. =
 
Best,
Dale Courtney
Moscow, Idaho
------=_NextPart_000_0124_01C33C84.E4D0E1B0-- From shawnc@outtrack.com Fri Jun 27 18:13:52 2003 From: shawnc@outtrack.com (Shawn Clabough) Date: Fri, 27 Jun 2003 10:13:52 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] Moscow and Water Message-ID: <89B16A73680AD31194A30090274FFC422E88C4@cdsl010.cda.micron.net> This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C33CCF.7B847140 Content-Type: text/plain Donovan, This page gives an example and cross-section of aquifers. http://www.ispe.arizona.edu/pubs/cap/aquifer.html You'll notice that there are multiple aquifers at different depths. The aquifer that most people are referring to lately is the deep aquifer that surface water cannot get back down to. It is my understanding that Moscow does have shallower aquifers, but they are not as large as the deep aquifer (i.e. Grand Ronde). Shawn -----Original Message----- From: Donovan Arnold [mailto:donovanarnold@hotmail.com] Sent: Thursday, June 26, 2003 6:37 PM To: london@moscow.com; griedner@ci.moscow.id.us Cc: vision2020@moscow.com Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Moscow and Water Bill or anyone who can answer, This may seem like a really stupid question, and probably is, but I must ask it anyway to anyone that may know. Where is all the water going? I understand people drink it, water plants, flush toilets, but why doesn't it all end back up where it came from, the ground? If I water the lawn, doesn't the water go back down into the ground or evaporate and go back into the air, condense, and then rain back down again and go back into the ground where we pump it back up again? I am not denying or implying that there is not a water problem, I am just curious as to how 18 inches a year of water can just disappear into thin air. It has to be somewhere, in some form, matter cannot just disappear as we understand physics today. I guess this is more of a geological or environmental question, but the only thing I think is that perhaps we are not recycling the water or weather patterns have changed contributing to the problem. Thanks! Donovan J Arnold >From: Bill London >Reply-To: london@moscow.com >To: gary riedner >CC: Vision2020 >Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Moscow and Water >Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2003 16:57:51 -0700 > >I recently received a questionaire from the City of Moscow Water >Department, regarding water use and water conservation. >While I thought the questions and options about what our family was >willing to do to save water were relevant, I was struck by the total >lack of questions about the most obvious (to me) reason why water mining >on the Palouse is both continuing and escalating: new home construction. > >Even if all of us stabilize our present water use, all those new homes >around Moscow are increasing our total use. And new homes would use >more than older homes, in landscaping anyway, because the new trees, >lawns and shrubs take much more water than established plantings. >So, here is my question to City Supervisor Gary Riedner: If the city is >considering how to cut water usage in Moscow, is the city investigating >the impact of new housing in Moscow, the option of a limitation on such >housing, or even a housing moratorium? >BL > >John Danahy wrote: > > > On Monday evening, the Moscow City Council decided that the way to > > solve our water crisis was to have a voluntary ban on outdoor watering > > between 9am and 6pm. Today, three days later, the MoscowSchool > > District was watering the grass at RussellSchool at 10am, using a > > leaky hose and standard air delivered sprinklers. At 11 am I noticed > > someone watering plants at the 1912 Building by hand using a hose. > > The action of the council was clearly designed to be feel good > > propaganda and not a meaningful response. > > > > I examined my water bill payments for all of 2002. My payments did > > not significantly change from month to month except for July and > > August. However, I do not know if the change was due to increased use > > or the surcharge the city puts on summer use. I suspect some increase > > in usage but mostly the increase is the result of the surcharge.. > > > > I realize that the city claim of doubled pumping of water is probably > > true. But, when the city sends out a survey that infers private > > homeowners are solely responsible for excessive water use, and > > suggests these home owners should voluntarily cut back, it is making > > an unsupported assumption. I do not believe that homeowners are > > responsible for the doubling of water use in the summer. Certainly, > > some use much more, but enough to double the pumping?? Hardly! > > > > What is the city's metered water use month by month?? How about the > > county?? School district?? Other civic and governmental > > organizations?? How much does the city pay for water?? How about our > > malls? The fountain in downtown and at the entrance to UI? > > > > The council should take this situation seriously. Last years ban was > > largely ignored by the individual home owner. The council claim that > > the water department was "broke", followed by drastic increases in > > fees, followed by the senior administrative staff getting pay > > increases on par with Spokane and Twin Falls, speaks to a city council > > with a severe lack of credibility. > > > > Let's start with a complete examination of all water use in Moscow and > > what could be done differently. Let's examine recycling water where > > we can, being efficient with water use, not just at home but in all > > aspects of the community. Let's see the city step up to its > > responsibilities. Yes, the aquifer is a gun pointed at the head of > > this community, but it is the city council's finger on the trigger! > > > > At the rate it is falling, and considering water as a limiting factor, > > can this community continue to support a 13,000 student university, > > much less the projected increase to 15,000? > > > > John > > > > jdanahy@turbonet.com > > ------_=_NextPart_001_01C33CCF.7B847140 Content-Type: text/html Message
Donovan,
 
This page gives an example and cross-section of aquifers.  http://www.ispe.arizona.edu/pubs/cap/aquifer.html
 
You'll notice that there are multiple aquifers at different depths.  The aquifer that most people are referring to lately is the deep aquifer that surface water cannot get back down to.  It is my understanding that Moscow does have shallower aquifers, but they are not as large as the deep aquifer (i.e. Grand Ronde).
 
Shawn
-----Original Message-----
From: Donovan Arnold [mailto:donovanarnold@hotmail.com]
Sent: Thursday, June 26, 2003 6:37 PM
To: london@moscow.com; griedner@ci.moscow.id.us
Cc: vision2020@moscow.com
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Moscow and Water

Bill or anyone who can answer,

This may seem like a really stupid question, and probably is, but I must ask it anyway to anyone that may know. Where is all the water going? I understand people drink it, water plants, flush toilets, but why doesn't it all end back up where it came from, the ground? If I water the lawn, doesn't the water go back down into the ground or evaporate and go back into the air, condense, and then rain back down again and go back into the ground where we pump it back up again? I am not denying or implying that there is not a water problem, I am just curious as to how 18 inches a year of water can just disappear into thin air. It has to be somewhere, in some form, matter cannot just disappear as we understand physics today. I guess this is more of a geological or environmental question, but the only thing I think is that perhaps we are not recycling the water or weather patterns have changed contributing to the problem. Thanks!

Donovan J Arnold

>From: Bill London
>Reply-To: london@moscow.com
>To: gary riedner
>CC: Vision2020
>Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Moscow and Water
>Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2003 16:57:51 -0700
>
>I recently received a questionaire from the City of Moscow Water
>Department, regarding water use and water conservation.
>While I thought the questions and options about what our family was
>willing to do to save water were relevant, I was struck by the total
>lack of questions about the most obvious (to me) reason why water mining
>on the Palouse is both continuing and escalating: new home construction.
>
>Even if all of us stabilize our present water use, all those new homes
>around Moscow are increasing our total use. And new homes would use
>more than older homes, in landscaping anyway, because the new trees,
>lawns and shrubs take much more water than established plantings.
>So, here is my question to City Supervisor Gary Riedner: If the city is
>considering how to cut water usage in Moscow, is the city investigating
>the impact of new housing in Moscow, the option of a limitation on such
>housing, or even a housing moratorium?
>BL
>
>John Danahy wrote:
>
> > On Monday evening, the Moscow City Council decided that the way to
> > solve our water crisis was to have a voluntary ban on outdoor watering
> > between 9am and 6pm. Today, three days later, the MoscowSchool
> > District was watering the grass at RussellSchool at 10am, using a
> > leaky hose and standard air delivered sprinklers. At 11 am I noticed
> > someone watering plants at the 1912 Building by hand using a hose.
> > The action of the council was clearly designed to be feel good
> > propaganda and not a meaningful response.
> >
> > I examined my water bill payments for all of 2002. My payments did
> > not significantly change from month to month except for July and
> > August. However, I do not know if the change was due to increased use
> > or the surcharge the city puts on summer use. I suspect some increase
> > in usage but mostly the increase is the result of the surcharge..
> >
> > I realize that the city claim of doubled pumping of water is probably
> > true. But, when the city sends out a survey that infers private
> > homeowners are solely responsible for excessive water use, and
> > suggests these home owners should voluntarily cut back, it is making
> > an unsupported assumption. I do not believe that homeowners are
> > responsible for the doubling of water use in the summer. Certainly,
> > some use much more, but enough to double the pumping?? Hardly!
> >
> > What is the city's metered water use month by month?? How about the
> > county?? School district?? Other civic and governmental
> > organizations?? How much does the city pay for water?? How about our
> > malls? The fountain in downtown and at the entrance to UI?
> >
> > The council should take this situation seriously. Last years ban was
> > largely ignored by the individual home owner. The council claim that
> > the water department was "broke", followed by drastic increases in
> > fees, followed by the senior administrative staff getting pay
> > increases on par with Spokane and Twin Falls, speaks to a city council
> > with a severe lack of credibility.
> >
> > Let's start with a complete examination of all water use in Moscow and
> > what could be done differently. Let's examine recycling water where
> > we can, being efficient with water use, not just at home but in all
> > aspects of the community. Let's see the city step up to its
> > responsibilities. Yes, the aquifer is a gun pointed at the head of
> > this community, but it is the city council's finger on the trigger!
> >
> > At the rate it is falling, and considering water as a limiting factor,
> > can this community continue to support a 13,000 student university,
> > much less the projected increase to 15,000?
> >
> > John
> >
> > jdanahy@turbonet.com
> >

------_=_NextPart_001_01C33CCF.7B847140-- From FCS@Moscow.com Fri Jun 27 18:13:55 2003 From: FCS@Moscow.com (Mark Seman) Date: Fri, 27 Jun 2003 10:13:55 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] Development...economic and otheriwse Message-ID: After reading a number of recent articles, letters to MDN and postings on the subject, I feel compelled to add my perspective on the subject of our local economic development. What I have observed is not a new phenomenon, but has been prevelent for 10-15 years. Of particular interest to me are economic development issues concerning construction projects. What I've seen is that much of the focus on this type of economic development has been on the "backend" of such projects. Identifying and highlighting the positive effects that these projects will have in employing local contractors, increasing local prosperity once businesses locate into the new spaces, new jobs creation, increased cash flows and all the other trickle-down effects. What has been lacking, and is blatantly obvious to many of us in the local A/E (architecture/engineering) sector is the almost complete lack of support of our "frontend" services. It would be difficult to actually quantify this assertion because of the number of entities involved, the variety of project types, and a host of other variables, but I feel that it's not far amiss to say that 90% of A/E fees go to firms oustide of the area, leaving 10% to be distributed to the local A/E's. This is a significant amount of money (millions) that leaves the area and does not leverage the local investment to a higher possible extent. Many of those expounding economic development promote the "backend" issues and negelect the "frontend" aspects that are always part of the equation. I won't list specific projects at this time, but there are a disproportionate number of projects (recent and not-so-recent) that have not involved local design professionals. There are many justifiable reasons to hire outside consultants for their expertise, notoriety, or whatever - there are also just as many justifiable reasons that local consultants should be included for their expertise, community involvement, intimate local connection, or whatever. To consistently overlook this resource is either irresponsible, irreverent, or simply irregarded. Having another layer of consultant involved can add to the complexity of project coordination, but it can also add value and a higher level of client responsiveness. Whether at a project or community level, it ultimately comes down to teamwork and how far that concept is taken and how much dedication there is for and from the local community. Public entities - the State, City, County, University, and certain other institutions are mandated to select consultants based upon qualifications (not bids), if fees are expected to exceed $25,000. Too often there is a closed-minded concept of what qualifies a consultant for a project or there is a preconception of which firm is most appropriate. This approach is meant to be fair and equitable, but in reality it often does not work in such a manner. The qualification requirements are set and defined by the soliciting agency and they may have inexperienced staff that are ignorant of what their project truly needs, have "hidden agendas," or are shortsighted and seek qualifications based on technical issues and not with a more broad vision. Washington state has a house bill (HB1884) proposed that will allow fees to be taken into consideration for selecting A/E's. I see this as evidence of the state trying to correct a problem with a flawed process (similar to Idaho's.) But I don't think this is a good solution to the problem. It would likely lessen project quality, similarly to the current "low-bid" selection method for contractors on public works projects. The benefit of HB1884, whether it passes or not, is that it will temporarily shake the status quo and hopefully allow for a re-evaluation of current selection methods in Washington an Idaho. Other entities such as taxing districts, community groups, hospitals, churches, businesses, developers, and home owners also play a similar role in local economic development. Any project requiring an A/E's technical, code, accessibility or creative expertise, license stamp & signature, also has a wider implication in our community development. Some people have a broader vision and are more open to these implications than others. I do want to extend a "Thank you" and commend the efforts of all those that have hired and supported local A/E's for their projects. You are a select minority in the expanded scope of available work, that has sensed a greater value of where you spend your project dollars. One purpose for this email is to bring this "inside" perspective to the public and to illustrate to those in the position to solicit professional services, the extent to which there has been ongoing neglect of the local A/E community. I am intent on making government officials, LEDC, Moscow Chamber, the business community and general public aware of this void in local economic development discussions and will be actively campaigning to try and change this persistent mindset. Mark *** ***** *** Mark & Heather Seman Full Circle Studios 828 South Washington, Suite B Moscow, Idaho 83843 v 208-883-3276 f 208-883-0112 FCS@Moscow.com From edc@moscow.com Fri Jun 27 20:38:44 2003 From: edc@moscow.com (Barbara Richardson) Date: Fri, 27 Jun 2003 12:38:44 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] Moscow and Water In-Reply-To: <3EFB887F.5CF80569@moscow.com> Message-ID: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0779_01C33CA9.0C2E0CF0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Please remember a moratorium on new housing will only serve to increase the already inflated housing prices in Moscow. We as a community cut water consumption in half last year by restricting or usage. Encouraging the use of drought resistant plants and shrubs; discouraging the use of lawn sprinkler systems; and encouraging government staff to implement conservation techniques can help reduce water usage. Also, a billing system that "penalizes" users that exceed average or reduce amounts can help conserve water. A moratorium on new housing construction would only serve to limit the number of people that can afford to own or rent housing in Moscow. Housing is considered affordable if it costs less than 30% of your gross income. On average, 61% of Moscow households pay more than 30% for housing. (United States Department of Housing and Urban Development). Placing a moratorium on housing development in Moscow does very little to help with overall conservation - Latah County is growing faster than Moscow and Pullman/Whitman County also share the aquifer. Barbara Richardson Crouch -----Original Message----- From: vision2020-admin@moscow.com [mailto:vision2020-admin@moscow.com]On Behalf Of Bill London Sent: Thursday, June 26, 2003 4:58 PM To: gary riedner Cc: Vision2020 Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Moscow and Water I recently received a questionaire from the City of Moscow Water Department, regarding water use and water conservation. While I thought the questions and options about what our family was willing to do to save water were relevant, I was struck by the total lack of questions about the most obvious (to me) reason why water mining on the Palouse is both continuing and escalating: new home construction. Even if all of us stabilize our present water use, all those new homes around Moscow are increasing our total use. And new homes would use more than older homes, in landscaping anyway, because the new trees, lawns and shrubs take much more water than established plantings. So, here is my question to City Supervisor Gary Riedner: If the city is considering how to cut water usage in Moscow, is the city investigating the impact of new housing in Moscow, the option of a limitation on such housing, or even a housing moratorium? BL John Danahy wrote: On Monday evening, the Moscow City Council decided that the way to solve our water crisis was to have a voluntary ban on outdoor watering between 9am and 6pm. Today, three days later, the MoscowSchool District was watering the grass at RussellSchool at 10am, using a leaky hose and standard air delivered sprinklers. At 11 am I noticed someone watering plants at the 1912 Building by hand using a hose. The action of the council was clearly designed to be feel good propaganda and not a meaningful response. I examined my water bill payments for all of 2002. My payments did not significantly change from month to month except for July and August. However, I do not know if the change was due to increased use or the surcharge the city puts on summer use. I suspect some increase in usage but mostly the increase is the result of the surcharge.. I realize that the city claim of doubled pumping of water is probably true. But, when the city sends out a survey that infers private homeowners are solely responsible for excessive water use, and suggests these home owners should voluntarily cut back, it is making an unsupported assumption. I do not believe that homeowners are responsible for the doubling of water use in the summer. Certainly, some use much more, but enough to double the pumping?? Hardly! What is the city’s metered water use month by month?? How about the county?? School district?? Other civic and governmental organizations?? How much does the city pay for water?? How about our malls? The fountain in downtown and at the entrance to UI? The council should take this situation seriously. Last years ban was largely ignored by the individual home owner. The council claim that the water department was “broke”, followed by drastic increases in fees, followed by the senior administrative staff getting pay increases on par with Spokane and Twin Falls, speaks to a city council with a severe lack of credibility. Let’s start with a complete examination of all water use in Moscow and what could be done differently. Let’s examine recycling water where we can, being efficient with water use, not just at home but in all aspects of the community. Let’s see the city step up to its responsibilities. Yes, the aquifer is a gun pointed at the head of this community, but it is the city council’s finger on the trigger! At the rate it is falling, and considering water as a limiting factor, can this community continue to support a 13,000 student university, much less the projected increase to 15,000? John jdanahy@turbonet.com ------=_NextPart_000_0779_01C33CA9.0C2E0CF0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Please = remember a=20 moratorium on new housing will only serve to increase the already = inflated=20 housing prices in Moscow.  We as a community cut water consumption = in half=20 last year by restricting or usage.  Encouraging the use = of =20 drought resistant plants and shrubs; discouraging the use of lawn = sprinkler=20 systems; and encouraging government  staff to implement=20 conservation techniques can help reduce water usage.  Also, a = billing=20 system that "penalizes" users that exceed average or reduce amounts can = help=20 conserve water.
 
A moratorium = on new=20 housing construction would only serve to limit the number of people that = can=20 afford to own or rent housing in Moscow.  Housing is considered = affordable=20 if it costs less than 30% of your gross income.  On = average, 61% of=20 Moscow households pay more than 30% for housing. (United States = Department of=20 Housing and Urban Development).  Placing a moratorium on housing=20 development in Moscow does very little to help with overall conservation = - Latah=20 County is growing faster than Moscow and Pullman/Whitman County also = share the=20 aquifer. 
 
Barbara=20 Richardson Crouch
 
-----Original Message-----
From: = vision2020-admin@moscow.com=20 [mailto:vision2020-admin@moscow.com]On Behalf Of Bill=20 London
Sent: Thursday, June 26, 2003 4:58 PM
To: = gary=20 riedner
Cc: Vision2020
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] = Moscow and=20 Water

I recently received a questionaire from the = City of=20 Moscow Water Department, regarding water use and water conservation. =
While I=20 thought the questions and options about what our family was willing to = do to=20 save water were relevant, I was struck by the total lack of questions = about the=20 most obvious (to me) reason why water mining on the Palouse is both = continuing=20 and escalating: new home construction.
Even if all of us stabilize = our=20 present water use, all those new homes around Moscow are increasing our = total=20 use.  And new homes would use more than older homes, in landscaping = anyway,=20 because the new trees, lawns and shrubs take much more water than = established=20 plantings.
So, here is my question to City Supervisor Gary = Riedner:  If=20 the city is considering how to cut water usage in Moscow, is the city=20 investigating the impact of new housing in Moscow, the option of a = limitation on=20 such housing, or even a housing moratorium?
BL=20

John Danahy wrote:=20

On Monday evening, the Moscow City = Council decided=20 that the way to solve our water crisis was to have a voluntary ban on = outdoor=20 watering between 9am=20 and 6pm.  Today, three days later,=20 the MoscowSchool=20 District was watering the = grass=20 at RussellSchool=20 at 10am, using a leaky hose and standard air = delivered=20 sprinklers.  At 11 = am I noticed someone = watering plants=20 at the 1912 Building by hand using a hose.  The action of the = council was=20 clearly designed to be feel good propaganda and not a meaningful=20 response.

I examined my water bill payments for all = of=20 2002.  My payments did not significantly change from month to = month=20 except for July and August.  However, I do not know if the change = was due=20 to increased use or the surcharge the city puts on summer use.  I = suspect=20 some increase in usage but mostly the increase is the result of the=20 surcharge..=20

I realize that the city claim of doubled = pumping of=20 water is probably true.  But, when the city sends out a survey = that=20 infers private homeowners are solely responsible for excessive water = use, and=20 suggests these home owners should voluntarily cut back, it is making = an=20 unsupported assumption.  I do not believe that homeowners are = responsible=20 for the doubling of water use in the summer.  Certainly, some use = much=20 more, but enough to double the pumping??  = Hardly!=20

What is the city’s metered water = use month by=20 month??  How about the county??  School district??  = Other civic=20 and governmental organizations??  How much does the city pay for=20 water??  How about our malls?  The fountain in downtown and = at the=20 entrance to UI?=20

The council should take this situation=20 seriously.  Last years ban was largely ignored by the individual = home=20 owner.  The council claim that the water department was = “broke”, followed=20 by drastic increases in fees, followed by the senior administrative = staff=20 getting pay increases on par with Spokane and Twin Falls,=20 speaks to a city council with a severe lack of = credibility.=20

Let’s start with a complete = examination of all water=20 use in Moscow and what could be done = differently.  Let’s=20 examine recycling water where we can, being efficient with water use, = not just=20 at home but in all aspects of the community.  Let’s see the = city step up=20 to its responsibilities.  Yes, the aquifer is a gun pointed at = the head=20 of this community, but it is the city council’s finger on the=20 trigger!=20

At the rate it is falling, and = considering water as a=20 limiting factor, can this community continue to support a 13,000 = student=20 university, much less the projected increase to = 15,000?=20

John=20

jdanahy@turbonet.com=20

------=_NextPart_000_0779_01C33CA9.0C2E0CF0-- From scooke@uidaho.edu Fri Jun 27 20:59:46 2003 From: scooke@uidaho.edu (Stephen Cooke) Date: Fri, 27 Jun 2003 12:59:46 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] rural poverty Message-ID: FYI Steve Cooke COMPARISONS OF METROPOLITAN-NONMETROPOLITAN POVERTY DURING THE 1990'S While the greater incidence of poverty in nonmetro relative to metro areas is well documented, there is little research as to whether it is deeper or more severe in nonmetro areas. This report examines metro-nonmetro differences in U.S. poverty rates, using data from Current Population Surveys (1991-2000) and poverty measures that are sensitive to income distribution. The standard practice of examining only the headcount, or incidence, of poverty provides the expected result that poverty is greater in nonmetro areas in all 10 years of the 1990s. The poverty gap index, which measures the depth of poverty, indicates that the difference in this measure of poverty is statistically significant in 6 of the 10 years. When the squared poverty gap index, a measure of severity, is examined, the estimate of nonmetro poverty is greater than the metro measure in only 3 of the 10 years. Released Wednesday, June 25, 2003 See http://www.ers.usda.gov/publications/rdrr96/ From onewildearth@hotmail.com Fri Jun 27 22:53:12 2003 From: onewildearth@hotmail.com (Garrett Clevenger) Date: Fri, 27 Jun 2003 14:53:12 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] Seeking Ride to West Side on July 3 Message-ID: Hello, I am looking for a ride to western Washington next Thursday, July 3rd, preferably to the Seattle or Puyallup area. I will pay for gas. I am also looking for a ride back from W. Washington on Thursday, July 17th. Anybody else going to see Neil Young with Crazy Horse on July 16th in Auburn, WA? Thanks! Garrett Clevenger http://www.icehouse.net/garrett "What are we doing to our Home?!:(" _________________________________________________________________ Tired of spam? Get advanced junk mail protection with MSN 8. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From timlohr@yahoo.com Fri Jun 27 23:06:15 2003 From: timlohr@yahoo.com (Tim Lohrmann) Date: Fri, 27 Jun 2003 15:06:15 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Vision2020] Talk Show 6/29/03: RADIO FREE MOSCOW Message-ID: <20030627220615.16352.qmail@web10902.mail.yahoo.com> Visionaries, On Sunday 6/29/03 MOSCOW MORNING VIEWS, a talk show on KUOI 89.3 FM in Moscow(web audio on KUOI.org) will feature the following guests: --In the first hour (9-10 am)we'll have open phone-lines and commentary by host. --In the second hour (10-11 am) Garrett Clevenger a member of the RADIO FREE MOSCOW collective will be in the studio. Clevenger, who may be joined by other RADIO FREE MOSCOW activists (either in studio or by phone) will discuss the latest news on RADIO FREE MOSCOW's efforts to establish a new free-speech, independent, commmunity radio station in Moscow. MOSCOW MORNING VIEWS is aired live every Sunday Morning from 9-11 am on KUOI 89.3 FM and streamed live on the internet on KUOI's website(KUOI.org) Call in phone #'s: 885-6392 or 885-6393 Anyone with comments, questions or suggestions for guests can send e-mail to: timlohr@yahoo.com OR call the studio after the show at the numbers above. __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! http://sbc.yahoo.com From donovanarnold@hotmail.com Sat Jun 28 00:14:58 2003 From: donovanarnold@hotmail.com (Donovan Arnold) Date: Fri, 27 Jun 2003 16:14:58 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] MSD Pay and Tenure--a reply Message-ID:

Dale,

You keep on with the statistics all you want, but you provide no answers of cutting the budget without cutting opportunities for children. I would be all for "maximizing the dollars we spend" on education. But you have not given one iota of evidence that this is possible. Show in detail to the people of Vision2020 a precise plan of how you can cut spending and still provide the same services to children and educators.

The only thing you have done is prove that inflation is ramped in education and that you can cut programs and save money, in your own words "DUH!". Everyone knows that you can cut education and save taxpayers money. BIG DEAL!. We can also cut fire department spending, law enforcement, road maintenance, parks, and sewage maintenance. SO what, yes ya can! But can you do it without cutting services, if you can, then write it down, otherwise, you are doing nothing but whining and not providing anything new.     

You wrote: "I will continue to press this point until the liberals acknowledge what the rest of us have known all along -- this isn't *really* about educating children."

Dale, you are not pressing any point. You are parroting statistics. This proves nothing. You want statistics I will give you some. Moscow ranks second in spending but also ranks second in the state for educational achievement. 100% of all schools that follow your ideology of slashing the budget for schools have been shut down at least one day a week or had to slash opportunities to for children. Teachers with a Masters degree and ten years experience make 1/3 what their counterparts makes in the open market. Idaho spends less then 84% of the 50 states on education per pupil. 100% of the people that don't like the MSD can move out of the district and pay nothing to it if they feel it is that horrible.

Here are some other Facts for you to chew on Dale:

Moscow is the most educated County in the State

A child born in Moscow is more likely to achieve a higher level of education

A child born and raised in Moscow is more likely to live longer

A child born and raised in Moscow is more likely not to do drugs

Moscow is the most liberal and second most Democratic County in Idaho

Moscow is the most educated City in Idaho

Moscow residents are more likely to pass bond levies to support education

A Moscow educator can get a job just one mile West and get paid more

Dale, yes, there are a great deal of things that makes Moscow different then the rest of the educational systems in Idaho. But I think good! Moscow is not the same as the rest of Idaho and that is precisely why I love it and what makes it my home. I don't want Moscow to be like the average city in Idaho for education like you are wanting to do. Have you ever been to an average city in Idaho? That is not what I want Moscow to look and behave like. I want all of our teachers to make 20-75K a year. I think that is great. It is nice to have teachers make a livable wage in a decent city where they can let their children play in the numerous parks we have without fear of them inhaling industrial fumes or being the subject of drug dealings, murder, or being abducted. I love this city, and think it is fine if the money going to schools and not going directly to Math, English, Science, or Reading. There are so many other things that give kids opp! ortunities. Did you ever attend MSD? You would know. I hope we continue to support these other programs and give as much to the children and the educators and support them as much as we can. I have no doubt that we could cut spending and at the same time raise scores for children on testing. However, there is more to education and being prepared for the real world and to encourage children that learning is not K-12, but the journey of a lifetime.   

Dale, if you truly want to live in a city that is like any other city in Idaho, I strongly suggest you move there. You think they are all better, then why not move to any other one. The People of Moscow support education because education is what this city is all about. We are not going to cut, we are going to increase spending for, provide more opportunities for the children, and encourage them to expand on their own. No other city in Idaho does this as well. We are NOT good at it because we are looking for ways to slash opportunities for children or the budget, we are good at it because we understand the education is expensive and that the inflation is high to maintain those standards. You keep on with the statistics all you want, but you provide no answers of cutting the budget without cutting opportunities for children. I would be all for "maximizing the dollars we spend" on education. But you have not given one iota o! f evidence that this possible. I challenge you to do so, not statistics, a plan of action that is more then just "cut the budget. Thanks!

Donovan J Arnold


Add photos to your e-mail with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. From thansen@moscow.com Sat Jun 28 00:53:33 2003 From: thansen@moscow.com (thansen@moscow.com) Date: Fri, 27 Jun 2003 23:53:33 GMT Subject: [Vision2020] MSD Pay and Tenure--a reply Message-ID: <200306272322.h5RNMIQU061917@whale2.fsr.net> Very well put, Mr. Arnold. I agree with you 100%. Dale Courtney is (to me, a member of the Oh No Group, the people that stand around something drastic and say, "Oh no. Oh no.". Take care, Tom Hansen >
>

Dale,

>

You keep on with the statistics all you want, but you provide no answers of cutting the budget without cutting opportunities for children. I would be all for "maximizing the dollars we spend" on education. But you have not given one iota of evidence that this is possible. Show in detail to the people of Vision2020 a precise plan of how you can cut spending and still provide the same services to children and educators.

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The only thing you have done is prove that inflation is ramped in education and that you can cut programs and save money, in your own words "DUH!". Everyone knows that you can cut education and save taxpayers money. BIG DEAL!. We can also cut fire department spending, law enforcement, road maintenance, parks, and sewage maintenance. SO what, yes ya can! But can you do it without cutting services, if you can, then write it down, otherwise, you are doing nothing but whining and not providing anything new.     

You wrote: "I will continue to press this point until the liberals acknowledge what the rest of us have known all along -- this isn't *really* about educating children."

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Dale, you are not pressing any point. You are parroting statistics. This proves nothing. You want statistics I will give you some. Moscow ranks second in spending but also ranks second in the state for educational achievement. 100% of all schools that follow your ideology of slashing the budget for schools have been shut down at least one day a week or had to slash opportunities to for children. Teachers with a Masters degree and ten years experience make 1/3 what their counterparts makes in the open market. Idaho spends less then 84% of the 50 states on education per pupil. 100% of the people that don't like the MSD can move out of the district and pay nothing to it if they feel it is that horrible.

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Here are some other Facts for you to chew on Dale:

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Moscow is the most educated County in the State

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A child born in Moscow is more likely to achieve a higher level of education

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A child born and raised in Moscow is more likely to live longer

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A child born and raised in Moscow is more likely not to do drugs

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Moscow is the most liberal and second most Democratic County in Idaho

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Moscow is the most educated City in Idaho

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Moscow residents are more likely to pass bond levies to support education

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A Moscow educator can get a job just one mile West and get paid more

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Dale, yes, there are a great deal of things that makes Moscow different then the rest of the educational systems in Idaho. But I think good! Moscow is not the same as the rest of Idaho and that is precisely why I love it and what makes it my home. I don't want Moscow to be like the average city in Idaho for education like you are wanting to do. Have you ever been to an average city in Idaho? That is not what I want Moscow to look and behave like. I want all of our teachers to make 20-75K a year. I think that is great. It is nice to have teachers make a livable wage in a decent city where they can let their children play in the numerous parks we have without fear of them inhaling industrial fumes or being the subject of drug dealings, murder, or being abducted. I love this city, and think it is fine if the money going to schools and not going directly to Math, English, Science, or Reading. There are so many other things that give kids opp! > ortunities. Did you ever attend MSD? You would know. I hope we continue to support these other programs and give as much to the children and the educators and support them as much as we can. I have no doubt that we could cut spending and at the same time raise scores for children on testing. However, there is more to education and being prepared for the real world and to encourage children that learning is not K-12, but the journey of a lifetime.   

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Dale, if you truly want to live in a city that is like any other city in Idaho, I strongly suggest you move there. You think they are all better, then why not move to any other one. The People of Moscow support education because education is what this city is all about. We are not going to cut, we are going to increase spending for, provide more opportunities for the children, and encourage them to expand on their own. No other city in Idaho does this as well. We are NOT good at it because we are looking for ways to slash opportunities for children or the budget, we are good at it because we understand the education is expensive and that the inflation is high to maintain those standards. You keep on with the statistics all you want, but you provide no answers of cutting the budget without cutting opportunities for children. I would be all for "maximizing the dollars we spend" on education. But you have not given one iota o! > f evidence that this possible. I challenge you to do so, not statistics, a plan of action that is more then just "cut the budget. Thanks!

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Donovan J Arnold

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Add photos to your e-mail with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. > > _____________________________________________________ > List services made available by First Step Internet, > serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994. > http://www.fsr.net > mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com > ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ > --------------------------------------------- This message was sent by First Step Internet. http://www.fsr.net/ From mushroom@moscow.com Sat Jun 28 01:06:05 2003 From: mushroom@moscow.com (Mushroom) Date: Fri, 27 Jun 2003 17:06:05 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] Adjustment for inflation Message-ID: <3EFCDBED.2011EB9C@moscow.com> This will seem strange, but my question has nothing to do with funding for public schools -- although I think the question of adjusting for inflation has come up in connection with posts about funding public schools. Could someone point me toward a table which would allow adjusting for inflation over the past 60 or 80 years? One formula obviously won't do, because the rate has varied. I'm sure there are different tables based on prices for different things, but I'm not picky as long as a source can be associated with the table Don Coombs From jack@wsu.edu Sat Jun 28 01:40:39 2003 From: jack@wsu.edu (Van Deventer, Jack) Date: Fri, 27 Jun 2003 17:40:39 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] How one ID school district dealt with declining enrollment Message-ID: <98444CB31FE6BD4F969495E78B94DDB329C720@mail.cbe.wsu.edu> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C33D0D.E5798D0A Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable IDAHO FALLS - The Idaho Falls School Board cut 117 mostly part-time jobs = and $1.36 million from the district's budget this week. =20 School officials said stagnant state funding, an eight-year enrollment = slide, a turbulent economy and surging costs for energy and employee = benefits left the district no choice but to cut payroll by nearly 4 = percent for the first time in at least 30 years. =20 For more: http://www.idahostatesman.com/Story.asp?ID=3D43124=20 =20 Jack __________________________________ Jack Van Deventer jack@wsu.edu =20 _____________________________________________________ List services made = available by First Step Internet, serving the communities of the Palouse = since 1994. http://www.fsr.net mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com = =AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF= =AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF= =AF=AF=AF ------_=_NextPart_001_01C33D0D.E5798D0A Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

IDAHO FALLS — The Idaho Falls School Board = cut 117 mostly part-time jobs and $1.36 million from the district’s = budget this week.

 

School officials said stagnant state funding, an eight-year = enrollment slide, a turbulent economy and surging costs for energy and employee = benefits left the district no choice but to cut payroll by nearly 4 percent for = the first time in at least 30 years.

 

For more:=A0 http://www.id= ahostatesman.com/Story.asp?ID=3D43124

 

Jack

__________________________________

Jack Van Deventer

jack@wsu.edu

 

_____________________________________________________ List services made available by First Step Internet,=20 serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994. =20 http://www.fsr.net =20 mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com =AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF= =AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF= =AF=AF=AF=00 ------_=_NextPart_001_01C33D0D.E5798D0A-- From troy1@moscow.com Sat Jun 28 01:49:57 2003 From: troy1@moscow.com (Troy Merrill) Date: Fri, 27 Jun 2003 17:49:57 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] How one ID school district dealt with declining enrollment References: <98444CB31FE6BD4F969495E78B94DDB329C720@mail.cbe.wsu.edu> Message-ID: <002101c33d0f$33134310$6864a8c0@tigris> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_001E_01C33CD4.861A26E0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable This is not a direct reply but I felt compelled to comment. There used = to be a widely circulated slogan that went, approximately, "What if the = military had to have a bake sale?" Regardless of your position on = government v capitalistic schools the juxtaposition of the huge = increases in military spending, most of which are pure pork, and the = inpoverishment of basic civil services most give one pause. Troy Merrill ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Van Deventer, Jack=20 To: vision2020@moscow.com=20 Sent: Friday, June 27, 2003 5:40 PM Subject: [Vision2020] How one ID school district dealt with declining = enrollment IDAHO FALLS - The Idaho Falls School Board cut 117 mostly part-time = jobs and $1.36 million from the district's budget this week. School officials said stagnant state funding, an eight-year enrollment = slide, a turbulent economy and surging costs for energy and employee = benefits left the district no choice but to cut payroll by nearly 4 = percent for the first time in at least 30 years. For more: http://www.idahostatesman.com/Story.asp?ID=3D43124=20 Jack __________________________________ Jack Van Deventer jack@wsu.edu _____________________________________________________ List services = made available by First Step Internet, serving the communities of the = Palouse since 1994. http://www.fsr.net mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com = =AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF= =AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF= =AF=AF=AF ------=_NextPart_000_001E_01C33CD4.861A26E0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
This is not a direct reply but I felt = compelled to=20 comment.  There used to be a widely circulated slogan that went,=20 approximately, "What if the military had to have a bake sale?"  = Regardless=20 of your position on government v capitalistic schools the juxtaposition = of the=20 huge increases in military spending, most of which are pure pork, = and the=20 inpoverishment of basic civil services most give one pause.
 
Troy Merrill
 
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Van Deventer, = Jack
Sent: Friday, June 27, 2003 = 5:40 PM
Subject: [Vision2020] How one = ID school=20 district dealt with declining enrollment

IDAHO FALLS =97 The Idaho = Falls School=20 Board cut 117 mostly part-time jobs and $1.36 million from the = district=92s=20 budget this week.

 

School officials said stagnant state = funding, an=20 eight-year enrollment slide, a turbulent economy and surging costs for = energy=20 and employee benefits left the district no choice but to cut payroll = by nearly=20 4 percent for the first time in at least 30 years.

 

For more:  http://www.id= ahostatesman.com/Story.asp?ID=3D43124=20

 

Jack

__________________________________

Jack Van=20 Deventer

jack@wsu.edu

 

_____________________________________= ________________=20 List services made available by First Step Internet, serving the = communities=20 of the Palouse since 1994. http://www.fsr.net = mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com=20 = =AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF= =AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF= =AF=AF=AF ------=_NextPart_000_001E_01C33CD4.861A26E0-- From lukenieuwsma@softhome.net Fri Jun 27 06:25:40 2003 From: lukenieuwsma@softhome.net (Luke) Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2003 22:25:40 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] Religious Diversity Education References: Message-ID: <00d301c33d0f$9acfcfa0$2f00a8c0@MOBILELUKE> Hello, Mr. Arnold, You argued that man is always tripped up by communication, particularly writing. Assuming your premise is true, why do you bother to write on Vision2020 if people will almost never be able to comprehend your full meaning? >I never claimed their were not rules. >Two Rules: >1) Love God above all other things and 2) Love you neighbor as yourself >The foundation is understanding and love. Where did you get those? Why should anyone follow the rules? Why shouldn't I love myself more than anybody? >I don't judge the morality of someone's actions , that is God's place. I only judge >actions to weigh if I think God would want me to commit those same actions. So if you saw a man beating a woman, you wouldn't judge the morality of his action? >Almost all legends and myths are based on such instances, from seals being seen for >the first time and being mistaken for mermaids, to dragons of Africa that are indeed >Komodo Dragons. Actually, on an archeological note, there is evidence of a monster-dinosaur, a swamp animal with a capacity for spewing spontaneously combustible fluid from an organ on its head, similar to a bombadier beetle's spray. This may be the basis for the dragon stories. While on dinosaur stuff, there appears to possibly be some triceretops (sp?) living in some South American rain forests. Locals have given many eyewitness accounts of the appearance of something matching the description of a triceretops, and they have identified it from among drawings of other dinosaurs. A team of scientists headed down there recently; I haven't heard about them. However, to return to the topic: You stated in the last paragraph of your post that "using deductive reasoning, having all the incorrect answers leads you to the correct one." Where do you get reason from? You denied absolute truth time and time again, and yet you use it to argue. That seems rather inconsistent to me. If we can all be right at the same time, then logic is irrelevant. If logic is irrelevant, you shouldn't use it! Take care, Luke Nieuwsma From lukenieuwsma@softhome.net Sat Jun 28 01:47:17 2003 From: lukenieuwsma@softhome.net (Luke) Date: Fri, 27 Jun 2003 17:47:17 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] Religious Diversity Education References: Message-ID: <00d701c33d0f$9ce51b10$2f00a8c0@MOBILELUKE> Mr. Arnold: >You are hysterical! Absolutely entertaining! Now if only my friends would say that to me... term "jail". Every think of the Or perhaps "negotiation" and <"Bargaining", or "friends" and "Respect" hold less value >then the benefits murder and The Bible doesn't list things as being "wrong" just for the sake of calling some things >"wrong" and some things "right". There are reasons for why these things are listed. I agree. God hates them. ...word "Commandments". So based on your logic, as a child you would have >robbed, >stole, cheated, lied, manipulated, and murdered your playmates >since you did not have >the ability to understand religion. I, like my >siblings, and most my playmates, did not >do these things. So Mr. Arnold was the perfect little angel when he was little. And his memory is so perfect that he knows whether he ever did anything naughty, particularly stealing. I am so impressed. Of course when I was little, I was dishonest, I manipulated, I cheated, I hated. Everyone does those things. I very much doubt that you were different. And if you don't think that children act this way, open your eyes for a bit. Visit a day-care center and watch the children misbehave themselves and be corrected again, and again, and again... >>You ask: "So the question comes down to this: what is the basis for your rules, for >>your blasphemies, for your moralities?" >Answer: Survival and being successful based on human behavior. Well then, if sleeping with all the pretty girls in town made you very popular and made you feel good, what would be wrong with it? It would even help society - bringing babies into the world is a good thing, isn't it? >I worship God because I want to, I love him. I follow rules of not stealing, lying, >cheating, and murdering because I believe that they are in the best interests of myself >and society. I do nice things for people because it makes me feel good to so and helps >me when they do nice things for me. So you openly admit that you are at the center. You do what you call good because it brings You pleasure, and you get things from people too. I submit that if they didn't help you in some way, you would refrain from those rules. And therefore, your morals are relative. Sincerely and respectfully, Luke Nieuwsma From lukenieuwsma@softhome.net Sat Jun 28 01:49:24 2003 From: lukenieuwsma@softhome.net (Luke) Date: Fri, 27 Jun 2003 17:49:24 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] Religious Diversity Education References: <5.2.1.1.0.20030625021639.0250ee10@mail.turbonet.com> Message-ID: <00d801c33d0f$9ef44c00$2f00a8c0@MOBILELUKE> Mr. Camden-Britton: >There are the interesting ideas of Utilitarian ethics, whereby activities which benefit >society as a whole are encouraged, and those that do not are discouraged or halted. >For simple situations such as murder or theft, it seems pretty clear that society does >not benefit, so one has an ethical duty to not engage in these acts. Non sequitor. Perhaps society may not be helped, but then, if there really is no god at all, why should anyone bother to help society or worry about morals ? We'll all be dead in a few decades anyways. >solid foundations for leading a moral and beneficial life for all concerned. Improving >the lot of one's fellow man is in one's own interest due to the net gain for all >concerned. But would you improve "the lot of one's fellow man" if it wasn't in your own interest? Best, Luke Nieuwsma From donovanarnold@hotmail.com Sat Jun 28 02:02:13 2003 From: donovanarnold@hotmail.com (Donovan Arnold) Date: Fri, 27 Jun 2003 18:02:13 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] How one ID school district dealt with declining enrollment Message-ID:

Yes Jack,

And the Superintendent John Murdock said, "While people may see on the surface no change in the classroom, the support services are going to be reduced dramatically,” stated at the bottom of the article. It also completely drained its reserves. This is how they dealt with budget cuts, not with declined enrollment as you suggest.

Why do we want to do this to the children and educators of Moscow School District? Not implying that you do, but others would.

Donovan J Arnold

>From: "Van Deventer, Jack"
>To:
>Subject: [Vision2020] How one ID school district dealt with declining enrollment
>Date: Fri, 27 Jun 2003 17:40:39 -0700
>
>IDAHO FALLS - The Idaho Falls School Board cut 117 mostly part-time jobs and $1.36 million from the district's budget this week.
>
>
>
>School officials said stagnant state funding, an eight-year enrollment slide, a turbulent economy and surging costs for energy and employee benefits left the district no choice but to cut payroll by nearly 4 percent for the first time in at least 30 years.
>
>
>
>For more: http://www.idahostatesman.com/Story.asp?ID=43124
>
>
>
>Jack
>
>__________________________________
>
>Jack Van Deventer
>
>jack@wsu.edu
>
>
>
>_____________________________________________________ List services made available by First Step Internet, serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994. http://www.fsr.net mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ

Tired of spam? Get advanced junk mail protection with MSN 8. From jack@wsu.edu Sat Jun 28 02:12:43 2003 From: jack@wsu.edu (Van Deventer, Jack) Date: Fri, 27 Jun 2003 18:12:43 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] How one ID school district dealt with declining enrollment Message-ID: <98444CB31FE6BD4F969495E78B94DDB3287B72@mail.cbe.wsu.edu> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C33D12.60CFCE62 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Just reporting the news, Donovan. IFalls, like Moscow, had declining = enrollments. Do I want to "do this" to the children? I want all = children to get a great education. At the same time, my taxes are = insanely high. Why would we want to "do this" to the parents of those = same children? Jack __________________________________ Jack Van Deventer jack@wsu.edu -----Original Message----- From: Donovan Arnold [mailto:donovanarnold@hotmail.com]=20 Sent: Friday, June 27, 2003 5:02 PM To: Van Deventer, Jack; vision2020@moscow.com Subject: Re: [Vision2020] How one ID school district dealt with = declining enrollment =20 Yes Jack, And the Superintendent John Murdock said, "While people may see on the = surface no change in the classroom, the support services are going to be = reduced dramatically," stated at the bottom of the article. It also = completely drained its reserves. This is how they dealt with budget = cuts, not with declined enrollment as you suggest. Why do we want to do this to the children and educators of Moscow School = District? Not implying that you do, but others would. Donovan J Arnold >From: "Van Deventer, Jack"=20 >To:=20 >Subject: [Vision2020] How one ID school district dealt with declining = enrollment=20 >Date: Fri, 27 Jun 2003 17:40:39 -0700=20 >=20 >IDAHO FALLS - The Idaho Falls School Board cut 117 mostly part-time = jobs and $1.36 million from the district's budget this week.=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >School officials said stagnant state funding, an eight-year enrollment = slide, a turbulent economy and surging costs for energy and employee = benefits left the district no choice but to cut payroll by nearly 4 = percent for the first time in at least 30 years.=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >For more: http://www.idahostatesman.com/Story.asp?ID=3D43124=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >Jack=20 >=20 >__________________________________=20 >=20 >Jack Van Deventer=20 >=20 >jack@wsu.edu=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >_____________________________________________________ List services = made available by First Step Internet, serving the communities of the = Palouse since 1994. http://www.fsr.net mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com = =AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF= =AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF= =AF=AF=AF=20 _____ =20 Tired of spam? Get advanced junk mail protection = with MSN 8. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C33D12.60CFCE62 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Just reporting the news, = Donovan.=A0 IFalls, like Moscow, had declining enrollments.=A0 = Do I want to “do this” to the children?=A0 I want all children to get a great = education.=A0 At the same time, my taxes are insanely high.=A0 Why would we want to = “do this” to the parents of those same children?

Jack

__________________________________

Jack Van Deventer

jack@wsu.edu

-----Original = Message-----
From: Donovan = Arnold [mailto:donovanarnold@hotmail.com]
Sent: Friday, June 27, = 2003 5:02 PM
To: Van = Deventer, Jack; vision2020@moscow.com
Subject: Re: = [Vision2020] How one ID school district dealt with declining enrollment

 

Yes Jack,

And the Superintendent John Murdock said, = "While people may see on the surface no change in the classroom, the support = services are going to be reduced dramatically,” stated at the bottom = of the article. It also completely drained its reserves. This is how they dealt = with budget cuts, not with declined enrollment as you = suggest.

Why do we want to do this to the children and educators of Moscow School District? Not implying that you do, but = others would.

Donovan J Arnold


>From: "Van Deventer, Jack" =

>To:

>Subject: [Vision2020] How one ID school = district dealt with declining enrollment

>Date: Fri, 27 Jun 2003 17:40:39 -0700 =

>

>IDAHO FALLS - The Idaho Falls School = Board cut 117 mostly part-time jobs and $1.36 million from the district's budget this = week.

>

>

>

>School officials said stagnant state = funding, an eight-year enrollment slide, a turbulent economy and surging costs for = energy and employee benefits left the district no choice but to cut payroll by = nearly 4 percent for the first time in at least 30 years.

>

>

>

>For more: http://www.idahostatesman.com/Story.asp?ID=3D43124

>

>

>

>Jack

>

>__________________________________ =

>

>Jack Van Deventer

>

>jack@wsu.edu

>

>

>

>__________________________________________= ___________ List services made available by First Step Internet, serving the = communities of the Palouse since 1994. http://www.fsr.net mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com =AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF= =AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF= =AF=AF=AF


Tired of spam? Get advanced junk mail = protection with MSN 8.

=00 ------_=_NextPart_001_01C33D12.60CFCE62-- From ddjames@moscow.com Sat Jun 28 03:21:30 2003 From: ddjames@moscow.com (Deacon James) Date: Fri, 27 Jun 2003 19:21:30 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] How one ID school district dealt with declining enrollment References: Message-ID: <002601c33d1b$fd35aaf0$27f2f5c7@gladiator> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0023_01C33CE1.5051EB80 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Donovan: "This is how they dealt with budget cuts, not with declined = enrollment as you suggest." The article states that "an eight-year enrollment slide" was a = contributing factor in the decision to make budget cuts. My = understanding is that funding for government schools is primarily based = on enrollment, so it should follow that if enrollment goes down, so = should funding. If only 17 poor souls attended Moscow High, would we = still be responsible for coming up with the exhorbitant amount of cash = we currently shell out? I suppose we would, because we would still need = to pay all of the teachers seventy grand a year. Cheers, Deacon ------=_NextPart_000_0023_01C33CE1.5051EB80 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Donovan: "This is how they dealt with = budget cuts,=20 not with declined enrollment as you suggest."
 
The article states that "an eight-year = enrollment=20 slide" was a contributing factor in the decision to make budget cuts. My = understanding is that funding for government schools is primarily based = on=20 enrollment, so it should follow that if enrollment goes down, so should = funding.=20 If only 17 poor souls attended Moscow High, would we still be = responsible=20 for coming up with the exhorbitant amount of cash we currently shell = out? I=20 suppose we would, because we would still need to pay all of the teachers = seventy=20 grand a year.
 
Cheers,
Deacon
------=_NextPart_000_0023_01C33CE1.5051EB80-- From thansen@moscow.com Sat Jun 28 03:36:44 2003 From: thansen@moscow.com (Tom Hansen) Date: Fri, 27 Jun 2003 19:36:44 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] How one ID school district dealt with declining enrollment In-Reply-To: <98444CB31FE6BD4F969495E78B94DDB3287B72@mail.cbe.wsu.edu> Message-ID: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0019_01C33CE3.709C4C80 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit The simple question remains. What is more important: your tax liability or your children's future? Tom Hansen Moscow, Idaho -----Original Message----- From: vision2020-admin@moscow.com [mailto:vision2020-admin@moscow.com]On Behalf Of Van Deventer, Jack Sent: Friday, June 27, 2003 6:13 PM To: Donovan Arnold; vision2020@moscow.com Subject: RE: [Vision2020] How one ID school district dealt with declining enrollment Just reporting the news, Donovan. IFalls, like Moscow, had declining enrollments. Do I want to “do this” to the children? I want all children to get a great education. At the same time, my taxes are insanely high. Why would we want to “do this” to the parents of those same children? Jack __________________________________ Jack Van Deventer jack@wsu.edu -----Original Message----- From: Donovan Arnold [mailto:donovanarnold@hotmail.com] Sent: Friday, June 27, 2003 5:02 PM To: Van Deventer, Jack; vision2020@moscow.com Subject: Re: [Vision2020] How one ID school district dealt with declining enrollment Yes Jack, And the Superintendent John Murdock said, "While people may see on the surface no change in the classroom, the support services are going to be reduced dramatically,” stated at the bottom of the article. It also completely drained its reserves. This is how they dealt with budget cuts, not with declined enrollment as you suggest. Why do we want to do this to the children and educators of Moscow School District? Not implying that you do, but others would. Donovan J Arnold >From: "Van Deventer, Jack" >To: >Subject: [Vision2020] How one ID school district dealt with declining enrollment >Date: Fri, 27 Jun 2003 17:40:39 -0700 > >IDAHO FALLS - The Idaho Falls School Board cut 117 mostly part-time jobs and $1.36 million from the district's budget this week. > > > >School officials said stagnant state funding, an eight-year enrollment slide, a turbulent economy and surging costs for energy and employee benefits left the district no choice but to cut payroll by nearly 4 percent for the first time in at least 30 years. > > > >For more: http://www.idahostatesman.com/Story.asp?ID=43124 > > > >Jack > >__________________________________ > >Jack Van Deventer > >jack@wsu.edu > > > >_____________________________________________________ List services made available by First Step Internet, serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994. http://www.fsr.net mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- Tired of spam? Get advanced junk mail protection with MSN 8. ------=_NextPart_000_0019_01C33CE3.709C4C80 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
The = simple=20 question remains.
 
What is more=20 important:  your tax liability or your children's=20 future?
 
Tom = Hansen
Moscow,=20 Idaho
-----Original Message-----
From: = vision2020-admin@moscow.com=20 [mailto:vision2020-admin@moscow.com]On Behalf Of Van Deventer,=20 Jack
Sent: Friday, June 27, 2003 6:13 PM
To: = Donovan=20 Arnold; vision2020@moscow.com
Subject: RE: [Vision2020] How = one ID=20 school district dealt with declining enrollment

Just reporting the news, = Donovan. =20 IFalls, like Moscow, had declining enrollments.  Do I want to = “do this”=20 to the children?  I want all children to get a great = education.  At=20 the same time, my taxes are insanely high.  Why would we want to = “do=20 this” to the parents of those same children?

Jack

__________________________________

Jack Van=20 Deventer

jack@wsu.edu

-----Original=20 Message-----
From:=20 Donovan = Arnold=20 [mailto:donovanarnold@hotmail.com]
Sent: Friday, June 27, 2003 = 5:02=20 PM
To: = Van=20 Deventer, Jack;=20 vision2020@moscow.com
Subject: Re: = [Vision2020] How=20 one ID school district dealt with declining = enrollment

 

Yes Jack,

And the Superintendent John Murdock said, = "While=20 people may see on the surface no change in the classroom, the support = services=20 are going to be reduced dramatically,” stated at the bottom = of the=20 article. It also completely drained its reserves. This is how they = dealt with=20 budget cuts, not with declined enrollment as you=20 suggest.

Why do we want to do this to the children = and=20 educators of Moscow School District? Not implying that you do, but = others=20 would.

Donovan J Arnold


>From: "Van Deventer, = Jack"=20

>To:=20

>Subject: [Vision2020] How = one ID=20 school district dealt with declining enrollment

>Date: Fri, 27 Jun 2003 = 17:40:39 -0700=20

>

>IDAHO FALLS - The Idaho = Falls School=20 Board cut 117 mostly part-time jobs and $1.36 million from the = district's=20 budget this week.

>

>

>

>School officials said = stagnant state=20 funding, an eight-year enrollment slide, a turbulent economy and = surging costs=20 for energy and employee benefits left the district no choice but to = cut=20 payroll by nearly 4 percent for the first time in at least 30 years.=20

>

>

>

>For more:=20 http://www.idahostatesman.com/Story.asp?ID=3D43124

>

>

>

>Jack

>

>__________________________________=20

>

>Jack Van Deventer =

>

>jack@wsu.edu =

>

>

>

>_____________________________________________________=20 List services made available by First Step Internet, serving the = communities=20 of the Palouse since 1994. http://www.fsr.net = mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com=20 = =AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF= =AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF= =AF=AF=AF


Tired of spam? Get advanced junk mail = protection=20 with MSN 8.

------=_NextPart_000_0019_01C33CE3.709C4C80-- From ddjames@moscow.com Sat Jun 28 04:52:21 2003 From: ddjames@moscow.com (Deacon James) Date: Fri, 27 Jun 2003 20:52:21 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] How one ID school district dealt with declining enrollment References: Message-ID: <002101c33d28$ae312b70$eff2f5c7@gladiator> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_001E_01C33CEE.0148B110 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable The simple question is too simple.=20 What about those of us who aren't -- or don't plan on -- sending our = children to the government schools? Deacon ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Tom Hansen=20 To: vision2020@moscow.com=20 Sent: Friday, June 27, 2003 7:36 PM Subject: RE: [Vision2020] How one ID school district dealt with = declining enrollment The simple question remains. What is more important: your tax liability or your children's future? Tom Hansen Moscow, Idaho -----Original Message----- From: vision2020-admin@moscow.com = [mailto:vision2020-admin@moscow.com]On Behalf Of Van Deventer, Jack Sent: Friday, June 27, 2003 6:13 PM To: Donovan Arnold; vision2020@moscow.com Subject: RE: [Vision2020] How one ID school district dealt with = declining enrollment Just reporting the news, Donovan. IFalls, like Moscow, had = declining enrollments. Do I want to "do this" to the children? I want = all children to get a great education. At the same time, my taxes are = insanely high. Why would we want to "do this" to the parents of those = same children? Jack __________________________________ Jack Van Deventer jack@wsu.edu -----Original Message----- From: Donovan Arnold [mailto:donovanarnold@hotmail.com]=20 Sent: Friday, June 27, 2003 5:02 PM To: Van Deventer, Jack; vision2020@moscow.com Subject: Re: [Vision2020] How one ID school district dealt with = declining enrollment Yes Jack, And the Superintendent John Murdock said, "While people may see on = the surface no change in the classroom, the support services are going = to be reduced dramatically," stated at the bottom of the article. It = also completely drained its reserves. This is how they dealt with budget = cuts, not with declined enrollment as you suggest. Why do we want to do this to the children and educators of Moscow = School District? Not implying that you do, but others would. Donovan J Arnold >From: "Van Deventer, Jack"=20 >To:=20 >Subject: [Vision2020] How one ID school district dealt with = declining enrollment=20 >Date: Fri, 27 Jun 2003 17:40:39 -0700=20 >=20 >IDAHO FALLS - The Idaho Falls School Board cut 117 mostly part-time = jobs and $1.36 million from the district's budget this week.=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >School officials said stagnant state funding, an eight-year = enrollment slide, a turbulent economy and surging costs for energy and = employee benefits left the district no choice but to cut payroll by = nearly 4 percent for the first time in at least 30 years.=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >For more: http://www.idahostatesman.com/Story.asp?ID=3D43124=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >Jack=20 >=20 >__________________________________=20 >=20 >Jack Van Deventer=20 >=20 >jack@wsu.edu=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >_____________________________________________________ List services = made available by First Step Internet, serving the communities of the = Palouse since 1994. http://www.fsr.net mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com = =AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF= =AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF= =AF=AF=AF=20 -------------------------------------------------------------------------= --- Tired of spam? Get advanced junk mail protection with MSN 8. ------=_NextPart_000_001E_01C33CEE.0148B110 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
The simple question is too simple. =
 
What about those of us who aren't -- or = don't plan=20 on -- sending our children to the government schools?
 
Deacon
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Tom = Hansen=20
Sent: Friday, June 27, 2003 = 7:36 PM
Subject: RE: [Vision2020] How = one ID=20 school district dealt with declining enrollment

The simple=20 question remains.
 
What is more=20 important:  your tax liability or your children's=20 future?
 
Tom=20 Hansen
Moscow,=20 Idaho
-----Original Message-----
From: vision2020-admin@moscow.com=20 [mailto:vision2020-admin@moscow.com]On Behalf Of Van = Deventer,=20 Jack
Sent: Friday, June 27, 2003 6:13 PM
To: = Donovan=20 Arnold; vision2020@moscow.com
Sub= ject:=20 RE: [Vision2020] How one ID school district dealt with declining=20 enrollment

Just reporting the news, = Donovan. =20 IFalls, like Moscow, had declining enrollments.  Do I want = to =93do=20 this=94 to the children?  I want all children to get a great=20 education.  At the same time, my taxes are insanely high.  = Why=20 would we want to =93do this=94 to the parents of those same=20 children?

Jack

__________________________________

Jack Van=20 Deventer

jack@wsu.edu

-----Original=20 Message-----
From:=20 Donovan=20 Arnold=20 [mailto:donovanarnold@hotmail.com]
Sent: Friday, June 27, 2003 = 5:02=20 PM
To: = Van=20 Deventer, Jack;=20 vision2020@moscow.com
Subject: Re: = [Vision2020] How=20 one ID school district dealt with declining = enrollment

 

Yes Jack,

And the Superintendent John Murdock said, = "While=20 people may see on the surface no change in the classroom, the = support=20 services are going to be reduced dramatically,=94 stated at the = bottom of=20 the article. It also completely drained its reserves. This is how = they dealt=20 with budget cuts, not with declined enrollment as you=20 suggest.

Why do we want to do this to the children = and=20 educators of Moscow School District? Not implying that you do, but = others=20 would.

Donovan J Arnold


>From: "Van Deventer, = Jack"=20

>To:=20

>Subject: [Vision2020] = How one ID=20 school district dealt with declining enrollment

>Date: Fri, 27 Jun 2003 = 17:40:39=20 -0700

>

>IDAHO FALLS - The Idaho = Falls=20 School Board cut 117 mostly part-time jobs and $1.36 million from = the=20 district's budget this week.

>

>

>

>School officials said = stagnant=20 state funding, an eight-year enrollment slide, a turbulent economy = and=20 surging costs for energy and employee benefits left the district no = choice=20 but to cut payroll by nearly 4 percent for the first time in at = least 30=20 years.

>

>

>

>For more:=20 http://www.idahostatesman.com/Story.asp?ID=3D43124 =

>

>

>

>Jack

>

>__________________________________=20

>

>Jack Van Deventer=20

>

>jack@wsu.edu =

>

>

>

>_____________________________________________________=20 List services made available by First Step Internet, serving the = communities=20 of the Palouse since 1994. http://www.fsr.net = mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com=20 = =AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF= =AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF= =AF=AF=AF=20


Tired of spam? Get advanced junk mail = protection=20 with MSN = 8.

------=_NextPart_000_001E_01C33CEE.0148B110-- From donovanarnold@hotmail.com Sat Jun 28 05:16:19 2003 From: donovanarnold@hotmail.com (Donovan Arnold) Date: Fri, 27 Jun 2003 21:16:19 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] How one ID school district dealt with declining enrollment Message-ID:

Deacon,

Yes, enrollment is "a factor" in educational funding, it is not the "ONLY" factor in funding education. If the number of disabled children increased, the number of impoverished children increased, the number of programs increased, inflation increased, and medical care increased, and housing costs increased, this would not justify cutting funding.

Second, they did not cut funding to give a big tax to rich white fat balding republicans. They took the cuts because the income is less off of existing tax laws.

Third, should the money saved by decreasing student enrollment go to improve educational opportunities, or should the government spend 90% of the money to figure out a way to give the other 10% back to big fat rich white balding Republicans? I vote to give the money to the kids.

You stated: "If only 17 poor souls attended Moscow High, would we still be responsible for coming up with the exhorbitant amount of cash we currently shell out? I suppose we would, because we would still need to pay all of the teachers seventy grand a year."

First, if we did follow you ideas we would only have 17 poor souls left in the Moscow School District.

"would we still be responsible for coming up with the exhorbitant amount of cash we currently shell out?" 

"Cash", I don't know Deacon, are you going to pay off the $8 Trillion deficit that you are leaving them behind? How about a trade, you pay the $8 Trillion debt and they will pay for the cost their education when they get older? I think that is fair don't you? Or how about you move to another country where you can give 67% of your income in taxes and get half as much in return? Or we can be thankful for what we have and educate the children the best we can so they will be smart enough to pay the debt off and pay your social security.

"I suppose we would, because we would still need to pay all of the teachers seventy grand a year."

We don't pay all the teachers $70K a year. If we did, that would be significant improvement of our society. Instead we pay lawyers, administrators, and politicians $70K or more a year. These are the blood suckers of society, not Teachers. Teachers hold the second most important jobs in the world, followed only by Mothers. I would love to see lawyers, administrators, and politicians scrape out a living on a teacher's salary while the people that hold jobs that truly give something to society get paid decent salaries.

I know of no job more worthy of 70K a year then a teacher. I suppose you would rather pay teachers $5.15 an hour to save your poor soul from MORE TAXES.

I will tell you something Deacon, I live on what is considered 20% below the poverty line. I pay 15% of income still in taxes. I live on less then 9K a year after taxes. I have zero children in school. I am happy to pay that money to the educational system. And I would rather have it all be given to the future of children and educators then giving one more cent in tax cuts to fattening the portfolios of fat rich balding republicans that make their money off the hard labor of honest americans making $5.15 an hour. If you want a tax cut, then write your legislatures and ask them to raise to minimum wage of nothing an hour to $10 a hour. Then people will make more and be able to pay a portion of your tax burden. Otherwise, you are hypocritical and will continue to pay ever more increasing portions of your income to the government and get not one tear from the people living on 12K a year or less which is a huge chunk of the Idaho population. Thanks!

Donovan J Arnold

>From: "Deacon James"

>To:
>Subject: Re: [Vision2020] How one ID school district dealt with declining enrollment
>Date: Fri, 27 Jun 2003 19:21:30 -0700
>
>Donovan: "This is how they dealt with budget cuts, not with declined enrollment as you suggest."
>
>The article states that "an eight-year enrollment slide" was a contributing factor in the decision to make budget cuts. My understanding is that funding for government schools is primarily based on enrollment, so it should follow that if enrollment goes down, so should funding. If only 17 poor souls attended Moscow High, would we still be responsible for coming up with the exhorbitant amount of cash we currently shell out? I suppose we would, because we would still need to pay all of the teachers seventy grand a year.
>
>Cheers,
>Deacon

MSN 8 helps ELIMINATE E-MAIL VIRUSES. Get 2 months FREE*. From johnmoss@moscow.com Sat Jun 28 10:42:56 2003 From: johnmoss@moscow.com (John Moss) Date: Sat, 28 Jun 2003 02:42:56 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] How one ID school district dealt with declining enrollment References: Message-ID: <008101c33d59$a723c9b0$2201a8c0@RMACH> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_007E_01C33D1E.FAA841F0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dear Tom, Donovan, et all, Maybe being a Democrat, I place too high a priority on personal = liberties, but whatever happened to the ability to choose what you = subsidize? When a state is spending more money on prisons (as some are) than higher = education, what is the problem? When a state is spending over 50% of = its budget (as many are) on K-12 education, is this good or bad? Most people can understand their money going to prisons. But should = citizens of a state be "forced" to put a chunk of their earned money = away every year for higher education? Whatever happened to working your = way through college? Initiative? Discipline? Drive to succeed? Okay, some people can't afford college. So is it their American-born = right that they get a Bachelor's degree? And if that, then why is it = not also their "right" to get a Harvard degree? Who should pay for it? And research of state-funded scholarship programs have shown that = instead of causing a strive for excellence, they instead landslide = students into under-achievement, taking the easier courses to ensure the = adequate GPA for the scholarship. Any psychologist will tell you that = the harder a person works for something, the more they will appreciate = its value. And if they don't have to work as hard for something, they = generally care less about it. Tom raises a good, straightforward, simple question: "What is more = important: your tax liability or your children's future?" Of course, the children's future. But my tax liability today affects my = children's future tomorrow. What type of inheritance will I leave them? Let's consider the following example. I'm not proposing this, but using = it as a case scenario: What would happen if the government didn't = provide students with a K-12 education, and we handed more than 50% of a = state's budget back into the pockets of the people? Well, these greedy = parents would obviously spend the money on personal pleasures. Or would = they? It would seem that most on Vision2020 would agree that a child should = have the opportunity to receive a good education. When I was in school, = my parents went out of their way many times to provide extra-curricular = learning experiences. Is it every child's right to have good parents? So is the consensus on this forum that we don't want to leave = educational choices up to a population of diverse parents, because they = would be greedy or lazy or obviously not pay for their children to go to = school? Or what? Thus, we must force parents by law to pay taxes to = fund schools. While we are at it, let's raise taxes so that these same = children will have cars to drive to school, and money to buy houses when = they graduate. (And they are going to need money for groceries.) Some children are born to poor parents; some children are born to rich = parents. Some children are born to a single-parent (okay, it took two = to get it started). And some children are born to divorced parents. = Some children are born to parents who will abuse them. And some = children are born to parents who will sacrifice their lives to see that = their children succeed. Is it every American-born child's right that = they get the same exact grade-school education, the same college = education, the same standard of living, the same car to drive in, the = same paying job, the same food on the table, the same vacation spots? As I said, maybe it's just that I'm a Democrat (and neither fat, nor = bald, nor rich) and place too high a priority on personal liberties and = the diversity of educational opportunities. I want my children to be = able to receive both a quality education and a fine inheritance. It's = going to take hard work on my part to make that happen. And since I am = putting in that hard work, do you not think I have some right in the say = of what happens to the money I have earned? Tax laws affect everyone = (in theory), as do minimum wage laws. And the more restrictive the tax = laws become, the more choice is taken out of the hands of the actual = parents of the children. By the way, the minimum wage laws and child labor laws surfaced together = in the Fair Labor Standards Act of 1938. While the Act was supposed to = shut down "oppressive" child labor, it eventually shut down almost all = earning opportunities for children and younger teens. And it affected = the potential earnings of older teens. Ask any high-school student, and they will generally tell you that the = only jobs they can get are minimum-wage jobs. The minimum wage = structure has caved in on itself. It was meant to prevent abuses, and = it has become an abuse in itself. Today, in the United States, a human = being has to go through over 16 years of school before they can earn = more than $5.35 an hour.=20 My questions for consideration are: What are a child's "rights"? And = what are the educational and financial choices provided to parents to = decide for their children? John Moss ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Tom Hansen=20 To: vision2020@moscow.com=20 Sent: Friday, June 27, 2003 7:36 PM Subject: RE: [Vision2020] How one ID school district dealt with = declining enrollment The simple question remains. What is more important: your tax liability or your children's future? Tom Hansen Moscow, Idaho -----Original Message----- From: vision2020-admin@moscow.com = [mailto:vision2020-admin@moscow.com]On Behalf Of Van Deventer, Jack Sent: Friday, June 27, 2003 6:13 PM To: Donovan Arnold; vision2020@moscow.com Subject: RE: [Vision2020] How one ID school district dealt with = declining enrollment Just reporting the news, Donovan. IFalls, like Moscow, had = declining enrollments. Do I want to "do this" to the children? I want = all children to get a great education. At the same time, my taxes are = insanely high. Why would we want to "do this" to the parents of those = same children? Jack __________________________________ Jack Van Deventer jack@wsu.edu -----Original Message----- From: Donovan Arnold [mailto:donovanarnold@hotmail.com]=20 Sent: Friday, June 27, 2003 5:02 PM To: Van Deventer, Jack; vision2020@moscow.com Subject: Re: [Vision2020] How one ID school district dealt with = declining enrollment Yes Jack, And the Superintendent John Murdock said, "While people may see on = the surface no change in the classroom, the support services are going = to be reduced dramatically," stated at the bottom of the article. It = also completely drained its reserves. This is how they dealt with budget = cuts, not with declined enrollment as you suggest. Why do we want to do this to the children and educators of Moscow = School District? Not implying that you do, but others would. Donovan J Arnold >From: "Van Deventer, Jack"=20 >To:=20 >Subject: [Vision2020] How one ID school district dealt with = declining enrollment=20 >Date: Fri, 27 Jun 2003 17:40:39 -0700=20 >=20 >IDAHO FALLS - The Idaho Falls School Board cut 117 mostly part-time = jobs and $1.36 million from the district's budget this week.=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >School officials said stagnant state funding, an eight-year = enrollment slide, a turbulent economy and surging costs for energy and = employee benefits left the district no choice but to cut payroll by = nearly 4 percent for the first time in at least 30 years.=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >For more: http://www.idahostatesman.com/Story.asp?ID=3D43124=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >Jack=20 >=20 >__________________________________=20 >=20 >Jack Van Deventer=20 >=20 >jack@wsu.edu=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >_____________________________________________________ List services = made available by First Step Internet, serving the communities of the = Palouse since 1994. http://www.fsr.net mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com = =AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF= =AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF= =AF=AF=AF=20 -------------------------------------------------------------------------= --- Tired of spam? Get advanced junk mail protection with MSN 8. ------=_NextPart_000_007E_01C33D1E.FAA841F0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Dear Tom, Donovan, et all,
 
Maybe being a Democrat, I place too = high a priority=20 on personal liberties, but whatever happened to the ability to choose = what you=20 subsidize?
 
When a state is spending more money on = prisons (as=20 some are) than higher education, what is the problem?  When a state = is=20 spending over 50% of its budget (as many are) on K-12 education, is this = good or=20 bad?
 
Most people can understand their money = going to=20 prisons.  But should citizens of a state be "forced" to put a chunk = of=20 their earned money away every year for higher education?  Whatever = happened=20 to working your way through college?  Initiative?  = Discipline? =20 Drive to succeed?
 
Okay, some people can't afford = college.  So is=20 it their American-born right that they get a Bachelor's degree?  = And if=20 that, then why is it not also their "right" to get a Harvard = degree?  Who=20 should pay for it?
 
And research of state-funded = scholarship programs=20 have shown that instead of causing a strive for excellence, they instead = landslide students into under-achievement, taking the easier courses to = ensure=20 the adequate GPA for the scholarship.  Any psychologist will tell = you that=20 the harder a person works for something, the more they will appreciate = its=20 value.  And if they don=92t have to work as hard for something, = they=20 generally care less about it.
 
Tom raises a good, straightforward, = simple=20 question: "What is more important: your tax liability or your children's = future?"
 
Of course, the children=92s = future.  But my tax=20 liability today affects my children=92s future tomorrow.  What type = of=20 inheritance will I leave them?
 
Let=92s consider the following = example.  I=92m not=20 proposing this, but using it as a case scenario: What would happen if = the=20 government didn=92t provide students with a K-12 education, and we = handed more=20 than 50% of a state=92s budget back into the pockets of the = people?  Well,=20 these greedy parents would obviously spend the money on personal=20 pleasures.  Or would they?
 
It would seem that most on Vision2020 = would agree=20 that a child should have the opportunity to receive a good = education.  When=20 I was in school, my parents went out of their way many times to provide=20 extra-curricular learning experiences.  Is it every child's right = to have=20 good parents?
 
So is the consensus on this forum that = we don=92t=20 want to leave educational choices up to a population of diverse parents, = because=20 they would be greedy or lazy or obviously not pay for their children to = go to=20 school? Or what?  Thus, we must force parents by law to pay taxes = to fund=20 schools.  While we are at it, let=92s raise taxes so that these = same children=20 will have cars to drive to school, and money to buy houses when they=20 graduate.  (And they are going to need money for = groceries.)
 
Some children are born to poor parents; = some=20 children are born to rich parents.  Some children are born to a=20 single-parent (okay, it took two to get it started).  And some = children are=20 born to divorced parents.  Some children are born to parents who = will abuse=20 them.  And some children are born to parents who will sacrifice = their lives=20 to see that their children succeed.  Is it every American-born = child=92s=20 right that they get the same exact grade-school education, the same = college=20 education, the same standard of living, the same car to drive in, the = same=20 paying job, the same food on the table, the same vacation = spots?
 
As I said, maybe it's just that I'm a = Democrat (and=20 neither fat, nor bald, nor rich) and place too high a priority on = personal=20 liberties and the diversity of educational opportunities.  I want = my=20 children to be able to receive both a quality education and a fine=20 inheritance.  It's going to take hard work on my part to make that=20 happen.  And since I am putting in that hard work, do you not think = I have=20 some right in the say of what happens to the money I have earned?  = Tax laws=20 affect everyone (in theory), as do minimum wage laws.  And the more = restrictive the tax laws become, the more choice is taken out of the = hands of=20 the actual parents of the children.
 
By the way, the minimum wage laws and = child labor=20 laws surfaced together in the Fair Labor Standards Act of 1938.  = While the=20 Act was supposed to shut down =93oppressive=94 child labor, it = eventually shut down=20 almost all earning opportunities for children and younger teens.  = And it=20 affected the potential earnings of older teens.
 
Ask any high-school student, and they = will=20 generally tell you that the only jobs they can get are minimum-wage = jobs. =20 The minimum wage structure has caved in on itself.  It was meant to = prevent=20 abuses, and it has become an abuse in itself.  Today, in the United = States,=20 a human being has to go through over 16 years of school before they can = earn=20 more than $5.35 an hour.
 
My questions for consideration are: = What are a=20 child=92s =93rights=94?  And what are the educational and financial = choices=20 provided to parents to decide for their children?
 
John Moss
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Tom = Hansen=20
Sent: Friday, June 27, 2003 = 7:36 PM
Subject: RE: [Vision2020] How = one ID=20 school district dealt with declining enrollment

The simple=20 question remains.
 
What is more=20 important:  your tax liability or your children's=20 future?
 
Tom=20 Hansen
Moscow,=20 Idaho
-----Original Message-----
From: vision2020-admin@moscow.com=20 [mailto:vision2020-admin@moscow.com]On Behalf Of Van = Deventer,=20 Jack
Sent: Friday, June 27, 2003 6:13 PM
To: = Donovan=20 Arnold; vision2020@moscow.com
Sub= ject:=20 RE: [Vision2020] How one ID school district dealt with declining=20 enrollment

Just reporting the news, = Donovan. =20 IFalls, like Moscow, had declining enrollments.  Do I want = to =93do=20 this=94 to the children?  I want all children to get a great=20 education.  At the same time, my taxes are insanely high.  = Why=20 would we want to =93do this=94 to the parents of those same=20 children?

Jack

__________________________________

Jack Van=20 Deventer

jack@wsu.edu

-----Original=20 Message-----
From:=20 Donovan=20 Arnold=20 [mailto:donovanarnold@hotmail.com]
Sent: Friday, June 27, 2003 = 5:02=20 PM
To: = Van=20 Deventer, Jack;=20 vision2020@moscow.com
Subject: Re: = [Vision2020] How=20 one ID school district dealt with declining = enrollment

 

Yes Jack,

And the Superintendent John Murdock said, = "While=20 people may see on the surface no change in the classroom, the = support=20 services are going to be reduced dramatically,=94 stated at the = bottom of=20 the article. It also completely drained its reserves. This is how = they dealt=20 with budget cuts, not with declined enrollment as you=20 suggest.

Why do we want to do this to the children = and=20 educators of Moscow School District? Not implying that you do, but = others=20 would.

Donovan J Arnold


>From: "Van Deventer, = Jack"=20

>To:=20

>Subject: [Vision2020] = How one ID=20 school district dealt with declining enrollment

>Date: Fri, 27 Jun 2003 = 17:40:39=20 -0700

>

>IDAHO FALLS - The Idaho = Falls=20 School Board cut 117 mostly part-time jobs and $1.36 million from = the=20 district's budget this week.

>

>

>

>School officials said = stagnant=20 state funding, an eight-year enrollment slide, a turbulent economy = and=20 surging costs for energy and employee benefits left the district no = choice=20 but to cut payroll by nearly 4 percent for the first time in at = least 30=20 years.

>

>

>

>For more:=20 http://www.idahostatesman.com/Story.asp?ID=3D43124 =

>

>

>

>Jack

>

>__________________________________=20

>

>Jack Van Deventer=20

>

>jack@wsu.edu =

>

>

>

>_____________________________________________________=20 List services made available by First Step Internet, serving the = communities=20 of the Palouse since 1994. http://www.fsr.net = mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com=20 = =AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF= =AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF= =AF=AF=AF=20


Tired of spam? Get advanced junk mail = protection=20 with MSN = 8.

------=_NextPart_000_007E_01C33D1E.FAA841F0-- From thansen@moscow.com Sat Jun 28 13:37:13 2003 From: thansen@moscow.com (Tom Hansen) Date: Sat, 28 Jun 2003 05:37:13 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] How one ID school district dealt with declining enrollment In-Reply-To: <002101c33d28$ae312b70$eff2f5c7@gladiator> Message-ID: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0048_01C33D37.53AC1CF0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit That is where the difference lies in this listserve. Some of us ask, "What can we do to improve our community and our schools for us?" And others ask, "What's in it for me?" Scary, isn't it? Take care, Tom Hansen Moscow, Idaho -----Original Message----- From: vision2020-admin@moscow.com [mailto:vision2020-admin@moscow.com]On Behalf Of Deacon James Sent: Friday, June 27, 2003 8:52 PM To: vision2020@moscow.com Subject: Re: [Vision2020] How one ID school district dealt with declining enrollment The simple question is too simple. What about those of us who aren't -- or don't plan on -- sending our children to the government schools? Deacon ----- Original Message ----- From: Tom Hansen To: vision2020@moscow.com Sent: Friday, June 27, 2003 7:36 PM Subject: RE: [Vision2020] How one ID school district dealt with declining enrollment The simple question remains. What is more important: your tax liability or your children's future? Tom Hansen Moscow, Idaho -----Original Message----- From: vision2020-admin@moscow.com [mailto:vision2020-admin@moscow.com]On Behalf Of Van Deventer, Jack Sent: Friday, June 27, 2003 6:13 PM To: Donovan Arnold; vision2020@moscow.com Subject: RE: [Vision2020] How one ID school district dealt with declining enrollment Just reporting the news, Donovan. IFalls, like Moscow, had declining enrollments. Do I want to “do this” to the children? I want all children to get a great education. At the same time, my taxes are insanely high. Why would we want to “do this” to the parents of those same children? Jack __________________________________ Jack Van Deventer jack@wsu.edu -----Original Message----- From: Donovan Arnold [mailto:donovanarnold@hotmail.com] Sent: Friday, June 27, 2003 5:02 PM To: Van Deventer, Jack; vision2020@moscow.com Subject: Re: [Vision2020] How one ID school district dealt with declining enrollment Yes Jack, And the Superintendent John Murdock said, "While people may see on the surface no change in the classroom, the support services are going to be reduced dramatically,” stated at the bottom of the article. It also completely drained its reserves. This is how they dealt with budget cuts, not with declined enrollment as you suggest. Why do we want to do this to the children and educators of Moscow School District? Not implying that you do, but others would. Donovan J Arnold >From: "Van Deventer, Jack" >To: >Subject: [Vision2020] How one ID school district dealt with declining enrollment >Date: Fri, 27 Jun 2003 17:40:39 -0700 > >IDAHO FALLS - The Idaho Falls School Board cut 117 mostly part-time jobs and $1.36 million from the district's budget this week. > > > >School officials said stagnant state funding, an eight-year enrollment slide, a turbulent economy and surging costs for energy and employee benefits left the district no choice but to cut payroll by nearly 4 percent for the first time in at least 30 years. > > > >For more: http://www.idahostatesman.com/Story.asp?ID=43124 > > > >Jack > >__________________________________ > >Jack Van Deventer > >jack@wsu.edu > > > >_____________________________________________________ List services made available by First Step Internet, serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994. http://www.fsr.net mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Tired of spam? Get advanced junk mail protection with MSN 8. ------=_NextPart_000_0048_01C33D37.53AC1CF0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
That is where the=20 difference lies in this listserve.  Some of us ask, "What can we do = to=20 improve our community and our schools for us?"  And others ask, = "What's in=20 it for me?"
 
Scary, isn't=20 it?
 
Take=20 care,
 
Tom = Hansen
Moscow,=20 Idaho
-----Original Message-----
From: = vision2020-admin@moscow.com=20 [mailto:vision2020-admin@moscow.com]On Behalf Of Deacon=20 James
Sent: Friday, June 27, 2003 8:52 PM
To:=20 vision2020@moscow.com
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] How one ID = school=20 district dealt with declining enrollment

The simple question is too simple. =
 
What about those of us who aren't -- = or don't=20 plan on -- sending our children to the government = schools?
 
Deacon
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Tom = Hansen=20
To: vision2020@moscow.com
Sent: Friday, June 27, 2003 = 7:36=20 PM
Subject: RE: [Vision2020] How = one ID=20 school district dealt with declining enrollment

The simple=20 question remains.
 
What is more=20 important:  your tax liability or your children's=20 future?
 
Tom=20 Hansen
Moscow,=20 Idaho
-----Original Message-----
From: vision2020-admin@moscow.com=20 [mailto:vision2020-admin@moscow.com]On Behalf Of Van = Deventer,=20 Jack
Sent: Friday, June 27, 2003 6:13 PM
To: = Donovan=20 Arnold; vision2020@moscow.com
Sub= ject:=20 RE: [Vision2020] How one ID school district dealt with declining=20 enrollment

Just reporting the news,=20 Donovan.  IFalls, like Moscow, had declining enrollments.  Do I want = to “do=20 this” to the children?  I want all children to get a = great=20 education.  At the same time, my taxes are insanely = high.  Why=20 would we want to “do this” to the parents of those = same=20 children?

Jack

__________________________________

Jack = Van=20 Deventer

jack@wsu.edu

-----Original=20 Message-----
From:=20 Donovan=20 Arnold=20 [mailto:donovanarnold@hotmail.com]
Sent: Friday, June 27, 2003 = 5:02=20 PM
To:=20 Van Deventer,=20 Jack;=20 vision2020@moscow.com
Subject: Re: = [Vision2020]=20 How one ID school district dealt with declining=20 enrollment

 

Yes Jack,

And the Superintendent John Murdock = said, "While=20 people may see on the surface no change in the classroom, the = support=20 services are going to be reduced dramatically,” stated = at the bottom=20 of the article. It also completely drained its reserves. This is = how they=20 dealt with budget cuts, not with declined enrollment as you=20 suggest.

Why do we want to do this to the = children and=20 educators of Moscow School District? Not implying that you do, but = others=20 would.

Donovan J Arnold


>From: "Van Deventer, = Jack"=20

>To:=20

>Subject: [Vision2020] = How one ID=20 school district dealt with declining enrollment

>Date: Fri, 27 Jun = 2003 17:40:39=20 -0700

>

>IDAHO FALLS - The = Idaho Falls=20 School Board cut 117 mostly part-time jobs and $1.36 million from = the=20 district's budget this week.

>

>

>

>School officials said = stagnant=20 state funding, an eight-year enrollment slide, a turbulent economy = and=20 surging costs for energy and employee benefits left the district = no choice=20 but to cut payroll by nearly 4 percent for the first time in at = least 30=20 years.

>

>

>

>For more:=20 http://www.idahostatesman.com/Story.asp?ID=3D43124 =

>

>

>

>Jack =

>

>__________________________________=20

>

>Jack Van Deventer=20

>

>jack@wsu.edu =

>

>

>

>_____________________________________________________=20 List services made available by First Step Internet, serving the=20 communities of the Palouse since 1994. http://www.fsr.net=20 mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com=20 = =AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF= =AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF= =AF=AF=AF=20


Tired of spam? Get advanced junk mail=20 protection with MSN=20 8.

<= /HTML> ------=_NextPart_000_0048_01C33D37.53AC1CF0-- From donovanarnold@hotmail.com Sat Jun 28 14:57:22 2003 From: donovanarnold@hotmail.com (Donovan Arnold) Date: Sat, 28 Jun 2003 06:57:22 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] How one ID school district dealt with declining enrollment Message-ID:

John,

I guess what it comes down to is how you view the world.

"whatever happened to the ability to choose what you subsidize?"

You do John, it is called voting. We vote indirectly for candidates of offices and sometimes directly on an issue.

"When a state is spending more money on prisons (as some are) than higher education, what is the problem? When a state is spending over 50% of its budget (as many are) on K-12 education, is this good or bad?"

Again a matter of perspective. I would rather spend more on a child then a criminal. I would rather spend money on a teacher then imprisoning a person for smoking marijuana. I would rather educate a child for free then a criminal. I think this is the problem. Also, it is proven that people with a High School diploma are way less likely to end up in prison and be more productive members of society. In other words, they generate wealth for the society and prisons take away wealth. It is better to invest in greater future earnings then future losses.  

"But should citizens of a state be "forced" to put a chunk of their earned money away every year for higher education? Whatever happened to working your way through college? Initiative? Discipline? Drive to succeed?"

First, they are not forced to do so. They vote for people that make that decision.

Second, I would like you to demonstrate to me how someone can work 81 hours, attend five hours worth of classes, 15 hours of homework, sleep 45 hours a week, and still get through school. This is what it would require to make it through college if students were to work their way through.

Third, the amount of money that a student attending the University costs the tax payer is about six grand a year for five years. They will produce over $1 million worth of wealth back to the community over their life times. In other words, $36K becomes $1million. This is an incredible return on the money to the community.

Finally, many students do work very hard to pay their way through school. I paid entirely myself the first half of my college. But it is impossible to get all of it on current wages. Furthermore, most the money you give to the University of Idaho is not going to education but to outreach and research. Another topic for debate.   

"Okay, some people can't afford college. So is it their American-born right that they get a Bachelor's degree? And if that, then why is it not also their "right" to get a Harvard degree? Who should pay for it?"

No, it is not an american-born right right to get a Bachelor's degree. Bachelor's Degree requires the completion of certain courses that may not be capable for some people to complete. Harvard is a private school and thus has not connection to the public sector.

"And research of state-funded scholarship programs have shown that instead of causing a strive for excellence, they instead landslide students into under-achievement, taking the easier courses to ensure the adequate GPA for the scholarship. Any psychologist will tell you that the harder a person works for something, the more they will appreciate its value. And if they don't have to work as hard for something, they generally care less about it."

I don't know where you get your information Mr.. Moss. Most the students I knew in college are required to take "certain" courses to achieve their degrees. The choices they have are limited. Most students choose the "elective" courses as either concentrated in another major and/or a similar interest. If a course is considered an "easier course" or a "harder course" is generally a matter of the skills and educational level of the student. I would consider a 200 level course in math, science, computers, and art extremely difficult, yet 300 and 400 level courses in Political Science, Communications, Philosophy and Psychology extremely more manageable. Likewise, I had numerous friends that would rather take 400 level course in math then a 100 level course in Political Science or Philosophy because they understood the material. If you are suggesting that people don't take courses in fields that they are have aptitude for but rather ! courses they despise, are not interested in, and will soon forget right after the course is completed, I think that is counter productive. Someone must want to learn the material in order to truly learn and benefit from it.

"But my tax liability today affects my children's future tomorrow. What type of inheritance will I leave them?"

That is up to you. It is not the right of a child to receive an inheritance. Furthermore, I would rather teach a child to fish and feed them for a lifetime, then give them a fish and feed them for a day. 

"Let's consider the following example. I'm not proposing this, but using it as a case scenario: What would happen if the government didn't provide students with a K-12 education, and we handed more than 50% of a state's budget back into the pockets of the people? Well, these greedy parents would obviously spend the money on personal pleasures. Or would they?"

No, I would highly doubt it. I would imagine that they would impeach, remove, or fail to re-elect the government officials that made that decision. They would also sue for the violation of the Idaho State Constitution.

"It would seem that most on Vision2020 would agree that a child should have the opportunity to receive a good education. When I was in school, my parents went out of their way many times to provide extra-curricular learning experiences. Is it every child's right to have good parents?"

"Good" is a relative term. We as a society have set up certain standards of what authority and responsibilities an adult who has legal authority over a child has to follow. Parents that fall outside those standards loose custody of the child or children under their authority. So yes, to a degree, they are given the right to "good" parents if a "good" parent is defined as anyone who fails within the legal standards of that society. 

"So is the consensus on this forum that we don't want to leave educational choices up to a population of diverse parents, because they would be greedy or lazy or obviously not pay for their children to go to school? Or what? Thus, we must force parents by law to pay taxes to fund schools. While we are at it, let's raise taxes so that these same children will have cars to drive to school, and money to buy houses when they graduate. (And they are going to need money for groceries.)"

Again, parents are not forced to pay money to schools. They choose to do so with the community they choose to live in and the votes they cast. We do leave educational choices up to parents to add to the child's education, but not to reduce or take away. A parent is free to spend more money, time, effort, energy, and resources to the educational achievement of their child. In fact it is encouraged to do so. They are also given the right to home school their child and/or to send him or her to a private school with higher achievement standards or a school that provides a learning style that is better suited to their child's ability to learn. Parents do not have the right to chain their child up in the basement and deny them an education. They do not have the right to murder other children to achieve higher ratings for their child. Just as they do not have the right to rob the educational system and the quality of education in the ! existing system through vouchers. 

Children do have transportation to school, it is called buses (big yellow long cars, perhaps you have seen one). And yes we do feed children, it tends to put a damper on the whole education/learning concept when the child is starving and malnourished.

"Is it every American-born child's right that they get the same exact grade-school education, the same college education, the same standard of living, the same car to drive in, the same paying job, the same food on the table, the same vacation spots?"

No, but it is the right of every child born in the United States to be given the opportunity to achieve these standards. We find educating the child the most proven way of achieving this goal.

 "And since I am putting in that hard work, do you not think I have some right in the say of what happens to the money I have earned?"

Yes, you have 100% control. You can donate it. You can move to Utah and pay half the amount in taxes. You can move to Alaska, where not only do you not pay taxes, but the state government pays you for the royalties on oil revenues generated from the state. You can move to another country. You can vote in this community. You have more children and make a major return on the investment by getting free education. A world of opportunities out there for you. Unfortunately, one of them is not living in the community we have all worked hard for, some for generations, and not pay taxes. Sorry, I guess that is just the Democrat in me thinking that education is more important then a tax cut for someone that lives in a community that provides a great deal of opportunities and services to them. I hear Orofino is trying what you propose, why don't you move there?

"What are a child's "rights"? And what are the educational and financial choices provided to parents to decide for their children?

A child's rights are not many unfortunately, and the few they do have like the "right to an education" is being attacked by many. It is really sad and depressing.

The educational choices provided by the parents are unlimited. The financial opportunities are limited to the parents ability to raise money.  

Thanks!
 
Donovan J Arnold

Protect your PC - Click here for McAfee.com VirusScan Online From dale@courtneys.us Sat Jun 28 18:29:23 2003 From: dale@courtneys.us (Dale Courtney) Date: Sat, 28 Jun 2003 10:29:23 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] Adjustment for inflation References: <3EFCDBED.2011EB9C@moscow.com> Message-ID: <015701c33d9a$d2122bd0$13936bd1@DMCLAPTOP2> Don asked: > Could someone point me toward a table which would allow > adjusting for inflation over the past 60 or 80 years? One > formula obviously won't do, because the rate has varied. For an online calculator, see the US Department of Labor's site: http://data.bls.gov/cgi-bin/cpicalc.pl For a table of the data, see: ftp://ftp.bls.gov/pub/special.requests/cpi/cpiai.txt Enjoy! Best, Dale PS -- it's worth taking a look at how education spending has runaway compared to general inflation. From dale@courtneys.us Sat Jun 28 18:43:05 2003 From: dale@courtneys.us (Dale Courtney) Date: Sat, 28 Jun 2003 10:43:05 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] MSD Pay and Tenure--a reply References: <016c01c33d9b$19f7eed0$13936bd1@DMCLAPTOP2> Message-ID: <017601c33d9c$bbaa0460$13936bd1@DMCLAPTOP2> Donovan wrote: > You keep on with the statistics all you want, but you provide no answers of > cutting the budget without cutting opportunities for children. Hmmm. The number of kids at MSD is down 21.3% in the last 10 years. *If* the cost driver of education were the children, then it's senseless that inflation-adjusted spending has *increased* by over 100% in that same time. > I would be > all for "maximizing the dollars we spend" on education. How odd. Instate tuition at UI is $3,000 per year; out of State tuition at UI is $10,000 per year; and MSD's "tuition" in FY01 was $8,772 and is projected to have been $10,112 in FY03. That means that it is cheaper to give someone a B.A. than it is to put them from 9th to 12th grade. > But you have not > given one iota of evidence that this is possible. How is that possible? You've *got* to be kidding! Non-parochial private schools all across the country do it every day. You can get a top of the line education for under $3k/year. And homeschoolers across the country are doing it on a daily basis. You should rather be asking the question -- *why* are government schools so expensive. I'll give you a hint for where to start -- they are run by the government and have no incentive to run better because they are a government-sponsored monopoly. But more on this later. Best, Dale From dale@courtneys.us Sat Jun 28 18:49:00 2003 From: dale@courtneys.us (Dale Courtney) Date: Sat, 28 Jun 2003 10:49:00 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] MSD Pay and Tenure--a reply References: <016c01c33d9b$19f7eed0$13936bd1@DMCLAPTOP2> Message-ID: <017a01c33d9d$8ef4e600$13936bd1@DMCLAPTOP2> > Everyone knows that you can cut education and save taxpayers money. BIG > DEAL!. We can also cut fire department spending, law enforcement, road > maintenance, parks, and sewage maintenance. SO what, yes ya can! But can you > do it without cutting services, if you can, then write it down, otherwise, > you are doing nothing but whining and not providing anything new. If Moscow's population were to decrease from 28,000 people to 23,000 people over the course of 10 years, would you be in favor of increasing inflation-adjusted spending by 100% to the fire department, law enforcement, road maintenance, parks, sewage maintenance, ...? That's the relative numbers that the MSD has downsized in the last 10 years. Best, Dale Courtney Moscow, Idaho From dale@courtneys.us Sat Jun 28 18:57:04 2003 From: dale@courtneys.us (Dale Courtney) Date: Sat, 28 Jun 2003 10:57:04 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] MSD Pay and Tenure--a reply References: <016c01c33d9b$19f7eed0$13936bd1@DMCLAPTOP2> Message-ID: <017e01c33d9e$afe98630$13936bd1@DMCLAPTOP2> > You wrote: "I will continue to press this point until the liberals > acknowledge what the rest of us have known all along -- this isn't *really* > about educating children." > Dale, you are not pressing any point. You are parroting statistics. This > proves nothing. You want statistics I will give you some. Moscow ranks > second in spending but also ranks second in the state for educational > achievement. If this is true, it is *very* scary -- because MSD students' composite average scores on the Iowa Test of Basic Skills (ITBS) and the Tests of Achievement and Proficiency (TAP) decreased by 28.2% in the last 10 years. Again, we've increased spending from $12.7M in FY92 to $21.3M in FY01; student numbers have declined in that period by 325 (13%), and the scores also went down by 28.2% -- now *that's* a good return on our investment! Only someone fixed on a statist educational system could argue for such spending and results. Best, Dale Courtney Moscow, Idaho From dale@courtneys.us Sat Jun 28 19:05:36 2003 From: dale@courtneys.us (Dale Courtney) Date: Sat, 28 Jun 2003 11:05:36 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] MSD Pay and Tenure--a reply References: <016c01c33d9b$19f7eed0$13936bd1@DMCLAPTOP2> Message-ID: <018201c33d9f$e0defb70$13936bd1@DMCLAPTOP2> Donovan wrote > Dale, yes, there are a great deal of things that makes Moscow different then > the rest of the educational systems in Idaho. But I think good! Moscow is > not the same as the rest of Idaho and that is precisely why I love it and > what makes it my home. I don't want Moscow to be like the average city in > Idaho for education like you are wanting to do. ROTFL! You think I want our children to receive an education like either MSD or Idaho is putting out? You've *got* to be kidding me? Why would I want to handicap our future generations like that? No, Donovan, I want to maximize the education that our children receive. By only focusing on a government-provided education, it is *you* who have forced what we have seen in the stats I've provided: runaway expenses in spite of runaway students (pardon the pun). It's foolhardy to demonize those in favor of educational choice as being anti-education. We want parents to have the right to educate their children as they best see fit -- and for the biggest bang for the buck. Demonize that! Best, Dale Courtney Moscow, Idaho From shawnc@outtrack.com Sat Jun 28 19:29:01 2003 From: shawnc@outtrack.com (Shawn Clabough) Date: Sat, 28 Jun 2003 11:29:01 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] MSD Pay and Tenure--a reply Message-ID: <89B16A73680AD31194A30090274FFC422E88C5@cdsl010.cda.micron.net> As you know, that $3000 ($3348) is only a small portion of the actual "tuition" costs for a UI student. Add in an estimated $1248 for books and supplies plus the state portion (seen it listed somewhere, but could not find it) and you would be well above the $8772 for MSD. Shawn -----Original Message----- From: Dale Courtney [mailto:dale@courtneys.us] Sent: Saturday, June 28, 2003 10:43 AM To: vision2020@moscow.com Subject: Re: [Vision2020] MSD Pay and Tenure--a reply How odd. Instate tuition at UI is $3,000 per year; out of State tuition at UI is $10,000 per year; and MSD's "tuition" in FY01 was $8,772 and is projected to have been $10,112 in FY03. That means that it is cheaper to give someone a B.A. than it is to put them from 9th to 12th grade. From dale@courtneys.us Sat Jun 28 19:33:10 2003 From: dale@courtneys.us (Dale Courtney) Date: Sat, 28 Jun 2003 11:33:10 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] MSD Pay and Tenure--a reply References: <89B16A73680AD31194A30090274FFC422E88C5@cdsl010.cda.micron.net> Message-ID: <025301c33da3$bb0f1fc0$13936bd1@DMCLAPTOP2> > As you know, that $3000 ($3348) is only a small portion of the actual > "tuition" costs for a UI student. Add in an estimated $1248 for books and > supplies plus the state portion (seen it listed somewhere, but could not > find it) and you would be well above the $8772 for MSD. Shawn, You are absolutely correct about this. My point was not that the $3,000 (or $10,000) was the *total* cost for a UI education (there's housing; food; books; etc). Rather, my point was that as an order of magnitude, the cost for a UI education is not far off from what we're paying for an MSD education -- especially considering that one is for a B.A. and the other for an elementary "degree". Best, Dale From bentwigg@yahoo.com Sat Jun 28 19:41:06 2003 From: bentwigg@yahoo.com (Ben Twigg) Date: Sat, 28 Jun 2003 11:41:06 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Vision2020] Chipman Trail Message-ID: <20030628184106.7827.qmail@web11002.mail.yahoo.com> Does anyone know who is responsible for maintaining the Chipman Trail? Can local residents volunteer to help maintain the trail? How does one make comments or suggestions regarding maintenance of the trail? Specifically, I think there are a few intersections on the trail (where it crosses roads) that could be made safer by trimming the tall grass near the trail. Lest anyone thinks I am complaining, I consider the trail one of the best developments in this community in recent years, and I am grateful for the efforts of those who maintain its condition. Please let me know if you have information related to the questions above. Thank you. Ben Twigg __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! http://sbc.yahoo.com From donovanarnold@hotmail.com Sat Jun 28 23:10:25 2003 From: donovanarnold@hotmail.com (Donovan Arnold) Date: Sat, 28 Jun 2003 15:10:25 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] MSD Pay and Tenure--a reply Message-ID:

Dale,

I am glad you broke up your responses into many emails. Otherwise I don't think I could handle so many misconceptions and twists of the truth in one email.  

>"*If* the cost driver of education were the children, then it's senseless

>that inflation-adjusted spending has *increased* by over 100% in that same

>time."

This is where another one of assumptions is WRONG! It is not children that causes the cost of of school to rise. It is the cost of things related to the children. You cannot compare 1992 to 2003. You seem to think that "child enrollment" is the only factor that should affect costs of education. This is like saying that rent should go down in proportion to the number of children you have in the house. My parents are paying 4x in costs of rent, utilities, and medical costs that they were in 1986 when they had 3 children in the house. Gee, perhaps they should go without medical treatment, housing or utilities.

Things have changed a bit since then, and other costs such as medical, housing, rent, utilities and quality of life have changed since 1992.

"How odd. Instate tuition at UI is $3,000 per year; out of State tuition at

>UI is $10,000 per year; and MSD's "tuition" in FY01 was $8,772 and is

>projected to have been $10,112 in FY03. That means that it is cheaper to

>give someone a B.A. than it is to put them from 9th to 12th grade."

This like the twisting of all your other statistics is WRONG!

Let's compare the two shall we:

Cost of food to a student at UI 120 meals a month: $1200

Tuition and fees: $3144

Books: $650

Required medical insurance: $641

Parking permit $65

Portion paid by the tax payer: $10,000

Number of Hours spend in class: 15

Total Cost: $15,700 for minimum of 15 hours of class for 8 months of classes. Or about $500 a credit hour (dived by two semesters assuming 15 credits a semester). Estimated cost of attendance in 2006: Over $20,000

Total Cost of attending to student Public elementary school $0

Total Cost of attending one pupil to Public elementary school to tax payer $8777

Total hours in school 30 hours of class per week for nine months

Total cost $146 per credit how hour. That is a 300% less cost then a BA degree.

"How is that possible? You've *got* to be kidding! Non-parochial private

>schools all across the country do it every day. You can get a top of the

>line education for under $3k/year. And homeschoolers across the country are

>doing it on a daily basis."

Yes, and millions more are doing it for free, it is called public school.

Donovan J Arnold

 

  


STOP MORE SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* From nchaney@moscow.com Sat Jun 28 23:32:03 2003 From: nchaney@moscow.com (Nancy Chaney) Date: Sat, 28 Jun 2003 15:32:03 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] Chipman Trail In-Reply-To: <20030628184106.7827.qmail@web11002.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <000001c33dc5$19d83fc0$cf5bfea9@Scotty> Dear Ben, As I understand it, the day to day maintenance of the Chipman Trail is overseen by the Palouse Trail Committee, made up of WSU, UI, the cities of Moscow & Pullman, and the lead agency, Whitman County. Back in Dec. 2001, Tim Myers of Whitman County Parks Dept. told me that, in general, Moscow, Pullman, and Whitman County are responsible for their own jurisdictions. Whitman County oversees certain elements of the trail, however, including contracting out for weed control. (At that time, Moscow had opted out of that arrangement, choosing instead to do its own weed control, mostly by mowing.) I think that your comments could be directed to Randy Rice (City of Moscow, 883-7000) or Roger Marcus (Operations Director for Whitman County Parks, (509) 397-6238) depending on which part of the trail you're concerned about. Thank you for your interest in our trails. We look forward to seeing you on the Latah Trail soon! Nancy Chaney -----Original Message----- From: vision2020-admin@moscow.com [mailto:vision2020-admin@moscow.com] On Behalf Of Ben Twigg Sent: Saturday, June 28, 2003 10:41 AM To: vision2020@moscow.com Subject: [Vision2020] Chipman Trail Does anyone know who is responsible for maintaining the Chipman Trail? Can local residents volunteer to help maintain the trail? How does one make comments or suggestions regarding maintenance of the trail? Specifically, I think there are a few intersections on the trail (where it crosses roads) that could be made safer by trimming the tall grass near the trail. Lest anyone thinks I am complaining, I consider the trail one of the best developments in this community in recent years, and I am grateful for the efforts of those who maintain its condition. Please let me know if you have information related to the questions above. Thank you. Ben Twigg __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! http://sbc.yahoo.com _____________________________________________________ List services made available by First Step Internet, serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994. http://www.fsr.net mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ From donovanarnold@hotmail.com Sat Jun 28 23:45:44 2003 From: donovanarnold@hotmail.com (Donovan Arnold) Date: Sat, 28 Jun 2003 15:45:44 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] MSD Pay and Tenure--a reply Message-ID:

Dale,

Once again, here too, you twist and turn the concepts to exclude other factors to make excuses.

Once again, you offer statistics and whine to go with it. You offer no detailed plan to deal with how the public educational system can cut the budget and NOT cut services for the children and educators. I challenge you to come with a plan. None of this comparing and more statistics of Public vs. Private. They are not the same thing, private schools cheat the rules, that is a fact, don't skirt that FACT like you have in the past. Show Vision 2020 a detailed plan of how you would meet the same legal standards, same opportunities for children, same treatment of teachers on a smaller budget. You haven't provided that information because you know it can't be done.  

>"If Moscow's population were to decrease from 28,000 people to 23,000 people
>over the course of 10 years, would you be in favor of increasing
>inflation-adjusted spending by 100% to the fire department, law enforcement,

>road maintenance, parks, sewage maintenance, ...?"

If the alternatives were to have no parks, no sewage, no fire protection, and no law enforcement;

or for us to be forced to move and live in huddled masses with less parks, less sewage treatment, less law enforcement, and less fire protection;

or to go without one of the previous services;

or to pay only a portion and receive ineffective services from all the about services then

 Yes I would. 

Likewise, this like asking would if you would rather have half the surgery you need and pay $3000 or pay $10000 and get the entire surgery. Kind of pointless to get half the surgery.

>

>"That's the relative numbers that the MSD has downsized in the last 10 years."

You make horrible misleading comparisons Dale. This like comparing Cars to computers. Computers cost 50% less every five years and the technology doubles. Cars double in price every 5 years. A car doesn't crash 5x a day either.

Once again, you offer statistics and whine to go with it. You offer no detailed plan to deal with how the public educational system can cut the budget and NOT cut services for the children and educators. I challenge you to come with a plan. None of this comparing and more statistics of Public vs. Private. They are not the same thing, private schools cheat the rules, that is a fact, don't skirt that FACT like you have in the past. Show Vision 2020 a detailed plan of how you would meet the same legal standards, same opportunities for children, same treatment of teachers. You haven't provided that information because you know it can't be done.

Thanks,

Donovan J Arnold 

>
>Best,
>Dale Courtney
>Moscow, Idaho
>
>_____________________________________________________
> List services made available by First Step Internet,
> serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
> http://www.fsr.net
> mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com
>ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ

Tired of spam? Get advanced junk mail protection with MSN 8. From dale@courtneys.us Sat Jun 28 23:53:41 2003 From: dale@courtneys.us (Dale Courtney) Date: Sat, 28 Jun 2003 15:53:41 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] MSD Pay and Tenure--a reply Message-ID: <007d01c33dc8$2364fbc0$1d936bd1@DMCLAPTOP2> Donovan wrote : > >"*If* the cost driver of education were the children, then it's senseless > >that inflation-adjusted spending has *increased* by over 100% in that same > >time." > This is where another one of assumptions is WRONG! It is not children that > causes the cost of of school to rise. It's interesting that you admit that children are not the cost driver for education. *Think* a while about what that means -- and the implications for that. This is what I have been saying all along -- it's not about the children. > You cannot compare 1992 to 2003. You can when you take the CPI (Consumer Price Index) into account. That's the whole purpose of the CPI. Inflation takes into consideration those things related to the cost drivers. > You seem to think that "child > enrollment" is the only factor that should affect costs of education. This > is like saying that rent should go down in proportion to the number of > children you have in the house. Illogical comparson. We're not *forced* to rent a high-end slum; we are with government education. > Total Cost of attending to student Public elementary school $0 And *this* is your fatal error -- thinking that goverenment schools are "free", even to the students. Think about what the parents *could* be doing for their kids if they weren't being bled for all the money that they are paying in the various taxes that go to MSD (property, State, Federal, etc). > Yes, and millions more are doing it for free, it is called public school. We have a *very* different idea about what "free" means. But then again, for statists, *everything* the government "provides" is free. Sigh... Best, Dale Courtney Moscow, Idaho From ted_moffett@hotmail.com Sat Jun 28 23:54:22 2003 From: ted_moffett@hotmail.com (Ted Moffett) Date: Sat, 28 Jun 2003 22:54:22 +0000 Subject: [Vision2020] MSD Pay and Tenure--a reply Message-ID: Dale and Others: Parental involvement is a critical factor in a child's education. I won't list facts and figures (this is not a research paper) but most people would consider this assertion obvious. And given this assumption, I think one of the best arguments for sending a child to a private school is that the parents pay for this education directly out of their pocket (unless there are vouchers or grants etc.), and therefore are motivated to be involved in the education of their child, to get their money's worth, as it were. Or maybe this is backwards: the fact that parents pay for a private school is evidence they were more involved with their child's education to begin with. Either way, I believe if you take two groups of children of identical potential, and put each group in the same school, with all variables equal except one group has parents who basically ignore the child's education, and the other group has parents who read to and with their children every day, enthusiastically discuss ideas with them, and help them with their homework every night, you would see a major difference between the two groups in educational performance. Of course I am assuming someone else is not giving the child of the neglectful parents a lot of educational attention outside of school. Therefore one of main causes of the difference in performance as measured on students test scores between private and public schools is due to this one variable of parental involvement. The actual quality of the education in private vs. public schools does not explain the whole difference between the measured performance of the students. Might not some of the test score results of students in public schools in recent years be due to the increasing number of families with both parents working who have less time to be involved with their child's education? If you took all the children from public schools and put them in private schools and vice versa, and measured their performance years from then, I believe you would see the public schools performance as measured on test scores go up, and the private schools performance go down. And not solely due to the fact that the private schooled children might be better educated at the start of the experiment, or because the pool of students in private schools is skewed towards a congenitally brighter group, or from a wealthier background, which are all important variables to consider, but in large part because the group of children in private schools have parents who are much more involved in their child's education. One of the other variables that influence the differences in makeup of private school children compared to public school children is the fact that private schools are not forced to educate every child that shows up at the door. They can reject children that are disruptive or perform poorly, or are handicapped, children that the public schools must attempt to educate, with only the most extreme cases being expelled. This variable clearly skews the performance of the public schools in a disadvantageous manner. Some of the disruptive students who perform poorly are probably influenced by a lack of nurturing parental involvement in their life, so this variable in part just leads us back to my main point. I don't doubt many of the facts you present about MSD spending, Dale. My experience in the MSD revealed some serious faults with the public educational system, including teachers of questionable skill with comfortable tenured jobs! But I think you overlook other variables that weaken your case that the public schools are a bloated entrenched liberal bureaucracy that wastes money without putting education first. There are reasons why the public schools might need to spend more money per child than a private school, valid reasons that address educational needs that the private schools do not address, such as attempting to educate neglected children whose parents look at school as state subsidized day care, or busing children to school from remote rural areas, or dealing with seriously disadvantaged or handicapped students, or funding a football team that travels all over Idaho, a football team I might think to be a waste of money, but that supports activities many parents and youth and the community wants as part of MSD. Another factor to consider is that the public schools, being tax supported government institutions, need an added layer of bureaucracy to deal with all the reporting requirements and documentation, etc. imposed on them. If you looked at all the expenses connected to all the programs and services and administrative costs that public schools incur, this partly explains why public education is more costly per child than private in some cases. Doing an exacting item by item cost comparison between, say, Logos in Moscow and the MSD, would reveal, I believe, that there are programs that MSD offers that do drive up costs compared to Logos, such as the Moscow Bears Football team, but that this program and others are ones the community wants. As far as salaries for public school teachers and administrators being too high, I believe the argument over this can cut both ways. Of course you can point to schools where the teachers do a good job on a salary that is equal to or below the average salary at MSD. So why increase teacher salaries? Because the cases of some schools getting by with low paid teachers does not prove that paying higher salaries will not attract more qualified and motivated teachers to the teaching profession which could improve public or private schools. You hear it often stated, at the U of I, in the corporate world, etc. that the justification for paying the U of I President, or the deans of certain colleges, or the CEOs of some corporations, the huge salaries or stock options or golden parachutes etc. is that it's the only way to get the best people for the job. Odd how this argument seems to be abandoned by some when looking at the salaries of some other professions, teaching among them. When the best and brightest can become a lawyer, a doctor, a statistician or a computer engineer, etc. and earn far more than ANY public school teacher in Idaho within a few years of entering their profession, do these people favor teaching in the public schools as a option? When our capitalist economic system financially rewards the best and the brightest far more for other professions than teaching, what does this say about the priority given or the respect shown by our society for the profession of teaching? I know you can quote average professional salaries and claim that teachers in Idaho are reasonably well paid in comparison. But this ignores the fact that a lawyer or doctor or computer scientist who is among the best and brightest, and at the top of their profession, can earn way more than ANY public school teacher in the state of Idaho, no matter how long they teach. This fact is well known, so I need not give facts and figures. The best and brightest in our universities, when looking at maximizing their future financial success, almost never consider going into teaching in a public school, unless they have some other side venture they might be working on to supplement their income. "There's no money in it" they will say!!!!!!!!!!This well known fact weakens your thesis that public school teachers are overpaid, and raises serious questions regarding your thesis that raising public school teaching salaries will not result in attracting better qualified, brighter teachers who can improve public schools. Ted >. > >As they say in California: "yea, uh-huh, whatever". > >The argument just continues to fall apart from there: > > >Just like vouchers are way out for people not to work > >with the community to better the local educational system. > >With vouchers, they can relieve themselves of the responsibility > >of working in the community by benefiting from the labor of others > >who worked to make their community a better place with better > >schools. > >This is also a *very* interesting argument. If there were vouchers, just >*where* would those kids go to school? In the local community (as opposed >to >Donovan's thinking, I guess, of bussing them out of state). > >It's absolutely *ridiculous* thinking that the only way you are going to >get >community involvement is by having government schools. That's absolutely >backwards from reality. > >As has been pointed out many times, competition in education drives prices >down and quality up. Monopolies are always the worst possible option. > >What the liberals are *really* afraid of is that parent will have >educational >choice -- and parents may not choose what the liberals are feeding. > >This would probably only *really* hit home if every MSD parent had to write >a check for $1,000 every month of the school year (since the cost at MSD is >over $8,000 per child). I think if parents knew what was being charged for >the education they are getting, there would be quite the little uproar. > >Best, >Dale Courtney >Moscow, Idaho _________________________________________________________________ MSN 8 helps eliminate e-mail viruses. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus From johnmoss@moscow.com Sun Jun 29 00:27:18 2003 From: johnmoss@moscow.com (John Moss) Date: Sat, 28 Jun 2003 16:27:18 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] MSD Pay and Tenure--a reply References: Message-ID: <000f01c33dcc$d145ef70$2201a8c0@RMACH> Ted's last post reminds me of a quip I heard from a professor: "The real difference between an M.D. and a Ph.D. is that an M.D. makes more money." But we all know that you earn the most money if you wear cleats. John Moss ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ted Moffett" To: ; Cc: Sent: Saturday, June 28, 2003 3:54 PM Subject: Re: [Vision2020] MSD Pay and Tenure--a reply > Dale and Others: > > Parental involvement is a critical factor in a child's education. I won't > list facts and figures (this is not a research paper) but most people would > consider this assertion obvious. And given this assumption, I think one of > the best arguments for sending a child to a private school is that the > parents pay for this education directly out of their pocket (unless there > are vouchers or grants etc.), and therefore are motivated to be involved in > the education of their child, to get their money's worth, as it were. Or > maybe this is backwards: the fact that parents pay for a private school is > evidence they were more involved with their child's education to begin with. > > Either way, I believe if you take two groups of children of identical > potential, and put each group in the same school, with all variables equal > except one group has parents who basically ignore the child's education, and > the other group has parents who read to and with their children every day, > enthusiastically discuss ideas with them, and help them with their homework > every night, you would see a major difference between the two groups in > educational performance. Of course I am assuming someone else is not giving > the child of the neglectful parents a lot of educational attention outside > of school. > > Therefore one of main causes of the difference in performance as measured on > students test scores between private and public schools is due to this one > variable of parental involvement. The actual quality of the education in > private vs. public schools does not explain the whole difference between the > measured performance of the students. Might not some of the test score > results of students in public schools in recent years be due to the > increasing number of families with both parents working who have less time > to be involved with their child's education? > > If you took all the children from public schools and put them in private > schools and vice versa, and measured their performance years from then, I > believe you would see the public schools performance as measured on test > scores go up, and the private schools performance go down. And not solely > due to the fact that the private schooled children might be better educated > at the start of the experiment, or because the pool of students in private > schools is skewed towards a congenitally brighter group, or from a wealthier > background, which are all important variables to consider, but in large part > because the group of children in private schools have parents who are much > more involved in their child's education. > > One of the other variables that influence the differences in makeup of > private school children compared to public school children is the fact that > private schools are not forced to educate every child that shows up at the > door. They can reject children that are disruptive or perform poorly, or > are handicapped, children that the public schools must attempt to educate, > with only the most extreme cases being expelled. This variable clearly > skews the performance of the public schools in a disadvantageous manner. > Some of the disruptive students who perform poorly are probably influenced > by a lack of nurturing parental involvement in their life, so this variable > in part just leads us back to my main point. > > I don't doubt many of the facts you present about MSD spending, Dale. My > experience in the MSD revealed some serious faults with the public > educational system, including teachers of questionable skill with > comfortable tenured jobs! But I think you overlook other variables that > weaken your case that the public schools are a bloated entrenched liberal > bureaucracy that wastes money without putting education first. > > There are reasons why the public schools might need to spend more money per > child than a private school, valid reasons that address educational needs > that the private schools do not address, such as attempting to educate > neglected children whose parents look at school as state subsidized day > care, or busing children to school from remote rural areas, or dealing with > seriously disadvantaged or handicapped students, or funding a football team > that travels all over Idaho, a football team I might think to be a waste of > money, but that supports activities many parents and youth and the community > wants as part of MSD. Another factor to consider is that the public > schools, being tax supported government institutions, need an added layer of > bureaucracy to deal with all the reporting requirements and documentation, > etc. imposed on them. If you looked at all the expenses connected to all > the programs and services and administrative costs that public schools > incur, this partly explains why public education is more costly per child > than private in some cases. > > Doing an exacting item by item cost comparison between, say, Logos in Moscow > and the MSD, would reveal, I believe, that there are programs that MSD > offers that do drive up costs compared to Logos, such as the Moscow Bears > Football team, but that this program and others are ones the community > wants. > > As far as salaries for public school teachers and administrators being too > high, I believe the argument over this can cut both ways. Of course you can > point to schools where the teachers do a good job on a salary that is equal > to or below the average salary at MSD. So why increase teacher salaries? > Because the cases of some schools getting by with low paid teachers does not > prove that paying higher salaries will not attract more qualified and > motivated teachers to the teaching profession which could improve public or > private schools. > > You hear it often stated, at the U of I, in the corporate world, etc. that > the justification for paying the U of I President, or the deans of certain > colleges, or the CEOs of some corporations, the huge salaries or stock > options or golden parachutes etc. is that it's the only way to get the best > people for the job. Odd how this argument seems to be abandoned by some > when looking at the salaries of some other professions, teaching among them. > > When the best and brightest can become a lawyer, a doctor, a statistician or > a computer engineer, etc. and earn far more than ANY public school teacher > in Idaho within a few years of entering their profession, do these people > favor teaching in the public schools as a option? When our capitalist > economic system financially rewards the best and the brightest far more for > other professions than teaching, what does this say about the priority given > or the respect shown by our society for the profession of teaching? > > I know you can quote average professional salaries and claim that teachers > in Idaho are reasonably well paid in comparison. But this ignores the fact > that a lawyer or doctor or computer scientist who is among the best and > brightest, and at the top of their profession, can earn way more than ANY > public school teacher in the state of Idaho, no matter how long they teach. > This fact is well known, so I need not give facts and figures. > > The best and brightest in our universities, when looking at maximizing their > future financial success, almost never consider going into teaching in a > public school, unless they have some other side venture they might be > working on to supplement their income. "There's no money in it" they will > say!!!!!!!!!!This well known fact weakens your thesis that public school > teachers are overpaid, and raises serious questions regarding your thesis > that raising public school teaching salaries will not result in attracting > better qualified, brighter teachers who can improve public schools. > > Ted > > > >. > > > >As they say in California: "yea, uh-huh, whatever". > > > >The argument just continues to fall apart from there: > > > > >Just like vouchers are way out for people not to work > > >with the community to better the local educational system. > > >With vouchers, they can relieve themselves of the responsibility > > >of working in the community by benefiting from the labor of others > > >who worked to make their community a better place with better > > >schools. > > > >This is also a *very* interesting argument. If there were vouchers, just > >*where* would those kids go to school? In the local community (as opposed > >to > >Donovan's thinking, I guess, of bussing them out of state). > > > >It's absolutely *ridiculous* thinking that the only way you are going to > >get > >community involvement is by having government schools. That's absolutely > >backwards from reality. > > > >As has been pointed out many times, competition in education drives prices > >down and quality up. Monopolies are always the worst possible option. > > > >What the liberals are *really* afraid of is that parent will have > >educational > >choice -- and parents may not choose what the liberals are feeding. > > > >This would probably only *really* hit home if every MSD parent had to write > >a check for $1,000 every month of the school year (since the cost at MSD is > >over $8,000 per child). I think if parents knew what was being charged for > >the education they are getting, there would be quite the little uproar. > > > >Best, > >Dale Courtney > >Moscow, Idaho > > _________________________________________________________________ > MSN 8 helps eliminate e-mail viruses. Get 2 months FREE*. > http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus > > _____________________________________________________ > List services made available by First Step Internet, > serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994. > http://www.fsr.net > mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com > ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ > > From donovanarnold@hotmail.com Sun Jun 29 00:56:05 2003 From: donovanarnold@hotmail.com (Donovan Arnold) Date: Sat, 28 Jun 2003 16:56:05 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] MSD and Vouchers Message-ID:

Dale,

I am going to make this as simple as possible so even you can understand the problems with your suggestions.

Imagine a small town with a school of only 100 children.

The entire community all chips in, regardless of if they have children or not, to reach $1 million to educate them.

Ten of the children have a disability of some kind, five are in dire poverty, and 10 are non-christians.

The ten disabled children and five impoverished children cost the community $400,000. The remaining 85 children cost $600,000.

A group of parents decide that the average cost of educating a child is $10,000 a piece. They also calculate the cost of a neighboring community Christian School only costs $10,000 and year and that school has test scores twice as high as the community school.

So they try to argue that they should get their ten thousand dollars from the community to send their child to the other school.

Let us pretend that they get their way in your fiction society.

So they get their ten grand and 25% of the students transfer to the other private school. The disabled children were told they would be charged $40,000 because of the increased costs if they wanted to attend. Outside of the budget for all the parents. The impoverished parents could not afford the transportation costs and food costs because they were not given free food or transportation.

The ten non-christian students were denied entrance because they were not Christian and/or parents rejected the religious curriculum.

The remaining 75 children all applied too, unfortunately, they all did not test high enough and only 1/3 of those students were accepted, the top 1/3.

The remaining students consist of the 10 disabled children, 5 impoverished students, and the bottom ranking 2/3 on test scores and a reduced budget of only $750,000.

15 of the remaining students take $400,000 of the $750,000. That leaves $350,000 for the remaining 60 students in the school. Or, $5,833 for the remaining students.

Those 60 students are 60% of the original population. They had $7,058 being spent on them. Now they have $5,833 a piece.

This is not increasing opportunity, this is decreasing opportunity.

Other side effects are.

Loss of jobs in the community.

Lower test scores for the students because the highest testing students left.

Reduced state funding because the population declined. 

Why should members of the community contribute to the declined education of 60% of the students in favor of the top 25% privileged students?

Why is it that you don't see this concept and the majority of US Citizens do?

Why do you ignore these fact?

Thanks!

Donovan J Arnold

  

 



 


Add photos to your e-mail with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. From donovanarnold@hotmail.com Sun Jun 29 01:23:14 2003 From: donovanarnold@hotmail.com (Donovan Arnold) Date: Sat, 28 Jun 2003 17:23:14 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] MSD Pay and Tenure--a reply Message-ID:

Dale,

You wrote: "This is what I have been saying all along -- it's not about the
*children*."

Interesting that you finally admit your true motives. Education is about the *children* to most people in the community. Your obvious motive is saving money for yourself, if it is not about the children. Perhaps you can save money by shutting down orphanages too and throwing the children on the street. While your at it, why don't you go lobby to cut medical care and social security for the elderly and disabled, they are 50% of your federal taxes.

Thanks!

Donovan J Arnold




Add photos to your e-mail with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. From johnbharrell@yahoo.com Sun Jun 29 01:24:06 2003 From: johnbharrell@yahoo.com (John Harrell) Date: Sat, 28 Jun 2003 17:24:06 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Vision2020] How one ID school district dealt with declining enrollment In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030629002406.44271.qmail@web13407.mail.yahoo.com> --0-968586904-1056846246=:44153 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Tom had said, "What is more important: your tax liability or your children's future?" You are joking again - right?! Well at least you said "your" children and not "our" children. So I thank you for that! And as a result of your question, thank you for allowing me to choose what is the best for my children. (A most illogical question posed in the first place. But false dilemmas are typical.) But will you really allow me to decide what is best for my childrens future? Or will you really decide that they are your children also and therefore try to decide for yourself what is best for my children. Get your nose out my family! But typical of most liberals, you must try to control every aspect of my life. Go away, leave my children alone! Cheers! John Harrell --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! --0-968586904-1056846246=:44153 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii

Tom had said, "What is more important: your tax liability or your children's future?"

You are joking again - right?!

Well at least you said "your" children and not "our" children. So I thank you for that!

And as a result of your question, thank you for allowing me to choose what is the best for my children. (A most illogical question posed in the first place. But false dilemmas are typical.)

But will you really allow me to decide what is best for my childrens future? Or will you really decide that they are your children also and therefore try to decide for yourself what is best for my children. Get your nose out my family! But typical of most liberals, you must try to control every aspect of my life. Go away, leave my children alone!

Cheers!

John Harrell

 

Do you Yahoo!?
SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! --0-968586904-1056846246=:44153-- From donovanarnold@hotmail.com Sun Jun 29 02:15:35 2003 From: donovanarnold@hotmail.com (Donovan Arnold) Date: Sat, 28 Jun 2003 18:15:35 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] How one ID school district dealt with declining enrollment Message-ID:

John,

Interesting the mentality that you have. A couple of questions I have for you.

1) Do you refer to children as property? Like a couch, dog, or car.

2) You want people to stay out of the choices and the options you choose for your children.

Do you then favor that all non-parents, or parents with children not in the school system, not pay any taxes to go to the public educational system? If they do it will effect the options and choices you have for your children. Why should they pay for the maintenance and care of *property* that is not theirs? Further, why should they give huge sums of money that they have absolutely no control over what happens to it?

3) If parents are given absolute control of their children, how do we avoid abusive parents? Isn't regulating the parents a form of liberal control over a family? Doesn't preventing a child from an education a form of abuse?

4) Isn't giving parents vouchers a form of welfare considering that all taxpayers are putting into the voucher yet are not getting something from it?

5) Why should poor income people that have no children pay for your child's education when you have more money?

6) Isn't the cost of paying for your child preventing some people from saving and having their own children?

7) Having to pay for your child prevents some people from having children, isn't that *you* getting involved in their personal family life and the decisions they would like to make?

I am just confused as to the way you are thinking. I am not implying you don't care for *your* children, it is evident that you do. But your thinking seems flawed and you need to clear some things up. Thanks!

Donovan J Arnold

>From: John Harrell
>To: thansen@moscow.com, vision2020@moscow.com
>Subject: RE: [Vision2020] How one ID school district dealt with declining enrollment
>Date: Sat, 28 Jun 2003 17:24:06 -0700 (PDT)
>
>
>Tom had said, "What is more important: your tax liability or your children's future?"
>
>You are joking again - right?!
>
>Well at least you said "your" children and not "our" children. So I thank you for that!
>
>And as a result of your question, thank you for allowing me to choose what is the best for my children. (A most illogical question posed in the first place. But false dilemmas are typical.)
>
>But will you really allow me to decide what is best for my childrens future? Or will you really decide that they are your children also and therefore try to decide for yourself what is best for my children. Get your nose out my family! But typical of most liberals, you must try to control every aspect of my life. Go away, leave my children alone!
>
>Cheers!
>
>John Harrell
>
>
>
>
>---------------------------------
>Do you Yahoo!?
>SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month!

MSN 8 helps ELIMINATE E-MAIL VIRUSES. Get 2 months FREE*. From johnbharrell@yahoo.com Sun Jun 29 05:42:58 2003 From: johnbharrell@yahoo.com (John Harrell) Date: Sat, 28 Jun 2003 21:42:58 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Vision2020] How one ID school district dealt with declining enrollment In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030629044259.15954.qmail@web13403.mail.yahoo.com> LOL Mr. Donovan Arnold, Your thinking is flawed. You seem to have this modernistic thought that requires that the government do everything for us. The same thought as Marx, and Lenin, et al. You think progressive taxes are good, that government controlled education is good, that government control of farming is good, that government control over all services are good. Iraq's dictator had the same kind of thinking, as did Hitler. This kind of thinking has been proven to be false and no longer a valid way for society to function. Iraq's dictator had the same kind of thinking, as did Hitler. Your liberal thought has been wrong in the past, wrong now, and will always be wrong for the future. Why should the government control and dictate education? This is a thought process that Hitler loved. Here let me help you understand the kinds of people that you are associating with: QUOTATION: When an opponent declares, “I will not come over to your side,” I calmly say, “Your child belongs to us already.... What are you? You will pass on. Your descendants, however, now stand in the new camp. In a short time they will know nothing else but this new community.” ATTRIBUTION: Adolf Hitler (1889–1945), German dictator. speech, Nov. 6, 1933. Quoted in William L. Shirer, “Education in the Third Reich,” ch. 8, The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich (1959); speaking about the schools and their indoctrination of the Hilterjugend (Hitler Youth Corps). It was Adolph Hitler who said, "Let me control the textbooks, and I will control the state." Norman Thomas, Socialist and member of the Civil Liberties Union, boldly told the world, "The American people will never knowingly adopt Socialism, but under the name of liberalism, they will adopt every fragment of the Socialist program until one day America will be a Socialist nation without ever knowing how it happened." "Give me your four year olds," said Lenin "and in a generation I will build a Socialist state." Lesbian author Patricia Warren, boldly told the gay and lesbian community, "It is the FIRST fact of civilization that--whoever captures the kids - owns the future." In his book ‘The Science Of Power’, Benjamin Kidd wrote, "Give us the young. -- Give us the young and We will create a new mind and a new Earth in a SINGLE generation." Ross L. Finny, a socialist PhD in one of his books tells us this; "Everything depends on passing out the expert opinions of the social scientists to the masses of the people; the schools are the only adequate agency for this function." Lastly, the American Humanist Association understands the importance of capturing the children – for they have written: "In order to capture this nation, one has to totally remove moral and spiritual values and absolutes from the thinking of the child. The child has to think that there is no standard of right and wrong, that truth is relative, and that diversity is the only absolute to be gained." Yes, so when it comes to MY children, NOT YOURS, I take the responsiblity of raising them very serious. And the government should not have anything to do with it. The government has proven it can't create a "quality" education even if tries; and it has tried and tried and tried, with more money and more money and more money, yet if fails and fails and fails. Let me say it again, in case you missed it the first time: Your liberal thought has been wrong in the past, wrong now, and will always be wrong for the future. Cheers! John Harrell --- Donovan Arnold wrote: --------------------------------- John, Interesting the mentality that you have. A couple of questions I have for you. 1) Do you refer to children as property? Like a couch, dog, or car. 2) You want people to stay out of the choices and the options you choose for your children. Do you then favor that all non-parents, or parents with children not in the school system, not pay any taxes to go to the public educational system? If they do it will effect the options and choices you have for your children. Why should they pay for the maintenance and care of *property* that is not theirs? Further, why should they give huge sums of money that they have absolutely no control over what happens to it? 3) If parents are given absolute control of their children, how do we avoid abusive parents? Isn't regulating the parents a form of liberal control over a family? Doesn't preventing a child from an education a form of abuse? 4) Isn't giving parents vouchers a form of welfare considering that all taxpayers are putting into the voucher yet are not getting something from it? 5) Why should poor income people that have no children pay for your child's education when you have more money? 6) Isn't the cost of paying for your child preventing some people from saving and having their own children? 7) Having to pay for your child prevents some people from having children, isn't that *you* getting involved in their personal family life and the decisions they would like to make? I am just confused as to the way you are thinking. I am not implying you don't care for *your* children, it is evident that you do. But your thinking seems flawed and you need to clear some things up. Thanks! Donovan J Arnold >From: John Harrell >To: thansen@moscow.com, vision2020@moscow.com >Subject: RE: [Vision2020] How one ID school district dealt with declining enrollment >Date: Sat, 28 Jun 2003 17:24:06 -0700 (PDT) > > >Tom had said, "What is more important: your tax liability or your children's future?" > >You are joking again - right?! > >Well at least you said "your" children and not "our" children. So I thank you for that! > >And as a result of your question, thank you for allowing me to choose what is the best for my children. (A most illogical question posed in the first place. But false dilemmas are typical.) > >But will you really allow me to decide what is best for my childrens future? Or will you really decide that they are your children also and therefore try to decide for yourself what is best for my children. Get your nose out my family! But typical of most liberals, you must try to control every aspect of my life. Go away, leave my children alone! > >Cheers! > >John Harrell > > > > >--------------------------------- >Do you Yahoo!? >SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! --------------------------------- MSN 8 helps ELIMINATE E-MAIL VIRUSES. Get 2 months FREE*._____________________________________________________ List services made available by First Step Internet, serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994. http://www.fsr.net mailto:Vision2020@moscow.comŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! http://sbc.yahoo.com From lukenieuwsma@softhome.net Sat Jun 28 05:56:32 2003 From: lukenieuwsma@softhome.net (Luke) Date: Fri, 27 Jun 2003 21:56:32 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] US Government booted out of your bedroom References: Message-ID: <028201c33e00$0a5dd6f0$2f00a8c0@MOBILELUKE> Mr. Moffet: > This is just like the ridiculous topless female law we have in Moscow. > People said the police would not go around trying to zealously enforce the > ordinance, but then why have bad law on the books at all? Because some lewd women walked around town without shirts on, of course! You aren't in favor of topless women roaming the streets, are you? Luke Nieuwsma From lukenieuwsma@softhome.net Sat Jun 28 06:17:43 2003 From: lukenieuwsma@softhome.net (Luke) Date: Fri, 27 Jun 2003 22:17:43 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] Religious Diversity Education References: Message-ID: <028401c33e00$0b323df0$2f00a8c0@MOBILELUKE> Mr. Moffet: > You imply the US military is somehow amiss in offering a religiously diverse > support system for the men and women who fight to defend us? So a man or > women who is risking their life for us who happens to be Islamic or Jewish > or Hindu should not receive this religiously diverse support? > What "reforms" are you suggesting? The teaching of the truth, of course. Unless we all say and believe and act according to the same ideals, we cannot function together. Look at our nation; you have Democrats, the largely non-Christian liberals who have adopted "loose" standards, and you have Republicans, the commonly Christian conservatives who still have semi-rigid standards of decency and morality. And at times the nation is simply chaotic. Practically every president since Reagan (and some before him, too) has had a constant war with a Congress led by the opposing party. The reason? the two main groups have radically different beliefs. It has become so that whenever one party initiates a particular movement, no matter what the movement may entail, you can count on the other party doing their level best to negate any progress made. Yet this is only one example of the morality clashes that we have all the time. The world isn't all just fine and dandy like you make-believe. We cannot all "just get along" and believe what we want to believe. There are endless clashes; the problem isn't that people just don't tolerate each other, it is that their beliefs are inconsistent with others. That is why there have been so many religious wars, that is why there is such a rift in this nation. And there is an answer to this problem. All the best, Luke Nieuwsma From johnbharrell@yahoo.com Sun Jun 29 07:02:47 2003 From: johnbharrell@yahoo.com (John Harrell) Date: Sat, 28 Jun 2003 23:02:47 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Vision2020] MSD Pay and Tenure--a reply In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030629060247.72617.qmail@web13406.mail.yahoo.com> Mr. Donovan Arnold, You have to be kidding again. This is so hilarious. You really need to start thinking. "Yes, and millions more are doing it for free, it is called public school." For Free!?!? You are joking! Why is it all liberals think everything is free if it comes from the government? Free services for this, free services for that, free free free! Think again. It is not free. The only thing that is being freed here is my money from my pocket. Please Mr. Arnold, STOP FREEING ME FROM MY MONEY! I work hard to provide for my family, but how am I supposed to provide for my family if you keep freeing me from my money? How am I supposed to provide for my elderly parents if you keep freeing me from my money? How are my elderly parents supposed to be live if you keep freeing them from their money? More levies, more bonds, more free services, more free schools, yea, right, stop joking around! Get outta my pocketbook, get outta my family. Liberals - wrong in the past, wrong now, and wrong for the future! Cheers! John Harrell --- Donovan Arnold wrote: --------------------------------- Dale, I am glad you broke up your responses into many emails. Otherwise I don't think I could handle so many misconceptions and twists of the truth in one email. >"*If* the cost driver of education were the children, then it's senseless >that inflation-adjusted spending has *increased* by over 100% in that same >time." This is where another one of assumptions is WRONG! It is not children that causes the cost of of school to rise. It is the cost of things related to the children. You cannot compare 1992 to 2003. You seem to think that "child enrollment" is the only factor that should affect costs of education. This is like saying that rent should go down in proportion to the number of children you have in the house. My parents are paying 4x in costs of rent, utilities, and medical costs that they were in 1986 when they had 3 children in the house. Gee, perhaps they should go without medical treatment, housing or utilities. Things have changed a bit since then, and other costs such as medical, housing, rent, utilities and quality of life have changed since 1992. "How odd. Instate tuition at UI is $3,000 per year; out of State tuition at >UI is $10,000 per year; and MSD's "tuition" in FY01 was $8,772 and is >projected to have been $10,112 in FY03. That means that it is cheaper to >give someone a B.A. than it is to put them from 9th to 12th grade." This like the twisting of all your other statistics is WRONG! Let's compare the two shall we: Cost of food to a student at UI 120 meals a month: $1200 Tuition and fees: $3144 Books: $650 Required medical insurance: $641 Parking permit $65 Portion paid by the tax payer: $10,000 Number of Hours spend in class: 15 Total Cost: $15,700 for minimum of 15 hours of class for 8 months of classes. Or about $500 a credit hour (dived by two semesters assuming 15 credits a semester). Estimated cost of attendance in 2006: Over $20,000 Total Cost of attending to student Public elementary school $0 Total Cost of attending one pupil to Public elementary school to tax payer $8777 Total hours in school 30 hours of class per week for nine months Total cost $146 per credit how hour. That is a 300% less cost then a BA degree. "How is that possible? You've *got* to be kidding! Non-parochial private >schools all across the country do it every day. You can get a top of the >line education for under $3k/year. And homeschoolers across the country are >doing it on a daily basis." Yes, and millions more are doing it for free, it is called public school. Donovan J Arnold --------------------------------- STOP MORE SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE*_____________________________________________________ List services made available by First Step Internet, serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994. http://www.fsr.net mailto:Vision2020@moscow.comŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! http://sbc.yahoo.com From mystic_chic1021@yahoo.com Sun Jun 29 07:15:29 2003 From: mystic_chic1021@yahoo.com (mysticchic) Date: Sat, 28 Jun 2003 23:15:29 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Vision2020] MSD and all that controversy Message-ID: <20030629061529.2316.qmail@web14406.mail.yahoo.com> --0-1069499822-1056867329=:220 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Once again I open my e-mail to find that everyone has left the saga of Mr. anti- Christ church and turned their wrath towards apparently to the only other important issue in Moscow: The dreadful Moscow School District. I realize that it takes a lot of money to support the district, but come on folks it is a good cause. These are children who should be given a chance to an education just as each one of us was given. I read what a lot of people continue to write and I always wonder, How many of these people actually have school age children?, and if you do , do you offer to help your children's school by volunteering? I guess the most puzzling thing for me to understand is if we just tossed out the School district and gave everyone back their almighty tax dollars, what kind of children would we have then? --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! --0-1069499822-1056867329=:220 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
Once again I open my e-mail to find that everyone has left the saga of Mr. anti- Christ church and turned their wrath towards apparently to the only other important issue in Moscow: The dreadful Moscow School District.  I realize that it takes a lot of money to support the district, but come on folks it is a good cause.  These are children who should be given a chance to an education just as each one of us was given. 
I read  what a lot of people continue to write and I always wonder, How many of these people actually have school age children?, and if you do , do you offer to help your children's school by volunteering?
I guess the most puzzling thing for me to understand is if we just tossed out the School district and gave everyone back their almighty tax dollars, what kind of children  would we have then?

Do you Yahoo!?
SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! --0-1069499822-1056867329=:220-- From johnbharrell@yahoo.com Sun Jun 29 07:19:39 2003 From: johnbharrell@yahoo.com (John Harrell) Date: Sat, 28 Jun 2003 23:19:39 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Vision2020] MSD Pay and Tenure--a reply In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030629061939.78391.qmail@web13407.mail.yahoo.com> Hello Mr. Ted Moffett, You may have hit on something here. You said, "When our capitalist economic system financially rewards the best and the brightest far more for other professions than teaching, what does this say about the priority given or the respect shown by our society for the profession of teaching?" This is an interesting observation. Lets apply it to schooling. The government schools are a monoply, and as such there is no competition. So, if competition was introduced (in some way - and I am not discussing government vouchers or any other funding model - just the abstract concept of competition), could this possibly reward the best and the brightest schools and therefore the teachers? I don't know for sure, but I would think most certainly. The higher level institutions (if one really wants to call them that) may be used as examples. Stanford, Princeton, Yale, Harvard, etc., are all rewarded because they are considered the best (maybe, maybe not - another discussion at another time), and therefore I would assume that the teachers at those respective institutions would also be rewarded. I believe that even here, UI and WSU are considered as different quality levels and I understand the teacher pay is similarly rewarded at different levels. Cheers! John Harrell --- Ted Moffett wrote: > Dale and Others: > > Parental involvement is a critical factor in a child's education. I won't > list facts and figures (this is not a research paper) but most people would > consider this assertion obvious. And given this assumption, I think one of > the best arguments for sending a child to a private school is that the > parents pay for this education directly out of their pocket (unless there > are vouchers or grants etc.), and therefore are motivated to be involved in > the education of their child, to get their money's worth, as it were. Or > maybe this is backwards: the fact that parents pay for a private school is > evidence they were more involved with their child's education to begin with. > > Either way, I believe if you take two groups of children of identical > potential, and put each group in the same school, with all variables equal > except one group has parents who basically ignore the child's education, and > the other group has parents who read to and with their children every day, > enthusiastically discuss ideas with them, and help them with their homework > every night, you would see a major difference between the two groups in > educational performance. Of course I am assuming someone else is not giving > the child of the neglectful parents a lot of educational attention outside > of school. > > Therefore one of main causes of the difference in performance as measured on > students test scores between private and public schools is due to this one > variable of parental involvement. The actual quality of the education in > private vs. public schools does not explain the whole difference between the > measured performance of the students. Might not some of the test score > results of students in public schools in recent years be due to the > increasing number of families with both parents working who have less time > to be involved with their child's education? > > If you took all the children from public schools and put them in private > schools and vice versa, and measured their performance years from then, I > believe you would see the public schools performance as measured on test > scores go up, and the private schools performance go down. And not solely > due to the fact that the private schooled children might be better educated > at the start of the experiment, or because the pool of students in private > schools is skewed towards a congenitally brighter group, or from a wealthier > background, which are all important variables to consider, but in large part > because the group of children in private schools have parents who are much > more involved in their child's education. > > One of the other variables that influence the differences in makeup of > private school children compared to public school children is the fact that > private schools are not forced to educate every child that shows up at the > door. They can reject children that are disruptive or perform poorly, or > are handicapped, children that the public schools must attempt to educate, > with only the most extreme cases being expelled. This variable clearly > skews the performance of the public schools in a disadvantageous manner. > Some of the disruptive students who perform poorly are probably influenced > by a lack of nurturing parental involvement in their life, so this variable > in part just leads us back to my main point. > > I don't doubt many of the facts you present about MSD spending, Dale. My > experience in the MSD revealed some serious faults with the public > educational system, including teachers of questionable skill with > comfortable tenured jobs! But I think you overlook other variables that > weaken your case that the public schools are a bloated entrenched liberal > bureaucracy that wastes money without putting education first. > > There are reasons why the public schools might need to spend more money per > child than a private school, valid reasons that address educational needs > that the private schools do not address, such as attempting to educate > neglected children whose parents look at school as state subsidized day > care, or busing children to school from remote rural areas, or dealing with > seriously disadvantaged or handicapped students, or funding a football team > that travels all over Idaho, a football team I might think to be a waste of > money, but that supports activities many parents and youth and the community > wants as part of MSD. Another factor to consider is that the public > schools, being tax supported government institutions, need an added layer of > bureaucracy to deal with all the reporting requirements and documentation, > etc. imposed on them. If you looked at all the expenses connected to all > the programs and services and administrative costs that public schools > incur, this partly explains why public education is more costly per child > than private in some cases. > > Doing an exacting item by item cost comparison between, say, Logos in Moscow > and the MSD, would reveal, I believe, that there are programs that MSD > offers that do drive up costs compared to Logos, such as the Moscow Bears > Football team, but that this program and others are ones the community > wants. > > As far as salaries for public school teachers and administrators being too > high, I believe the argument over this can cut both ways. Of course you can > point to schools where the teachers do a good job on a salary that is equal > to or below the average salary at MSD. So why increase teacher salaries? > Because the cases of some schools getting by with low paid teachers does not > prove that paying higher salaries will not attract more qualified and > motivated teachers to the teaching profession which could improve public or > private schools. > > You hear it often stated, at the U of I, in the corporate world, etc. that > the justification for paying the U of I President, or the deans of certain > colleges, or the CEOs of some corporations, the huge salaries or stock > options or golden parachutes etc. is that it's the only way to get the best > people for the job. Odd how this argument seems to be abandoned by some > when looking at the salaries of some other professions, teaching among them. > > When the best and brightest can become a lawyer, a doctor, a statistician or > a computer engineer, etc. and earn far more than ANY public school teacher > in Idaho within a few years of entering their profession, do these people > favor teaching in the public schools as a option? When our capitalist > economic system financially rewards the best and the brightest far more for > other professions than teaching, what does this say about the priority given > or the respect shown by our society for the profession of teaching? > > I know you can quote average professional salaries and claim that teachers > in Idaho are reasonably well paid in comparison. But this ignores the fact > that a lawyer or doctor or computer scientist who is among the best and > brightest, and at the top of their profession, can earn way more than ANY > public school teacher in the state of Idaho, no matter how long they teach. > This fact is well known, so I need not give facts and figures. > > The best and brightest in our universities, when looking at maximizing their > future financial success, almost never consider going into teaching in a > public school, unless they have some other side venture they might be > working on to supplement their income. "There's no money in it" they will > say!!!!!!!!!!This well known fact weakens your thesis that public school > teachers are overpaid, and raises serious questions regarding your thesis > that raising public school teaching salaries will not result in attracting > better qualified, brighter teachers who can improve public schools. > > Ted > > > >. > > > >As they say in California: "yea, uh-huh, whatever". > > > >The argument just continues to fall apart from there: > > > > >Just like vouchers are way out for people not to work > > >with the community to better the local educational system. > > >With vouchers, they can relieve themselves of the responsibility > > >of working in the community by benefiting from the labor of others > > >who worked to make their community a better place with better > > >schools. > > > >This is also a *very* interesting argument. If there were vouchers, just > >*where* would those kids go to school? In the local community (as opposed > >to > >Donovan's thinking, I guess, of bussing them out of state). > > > >It's absolutely *ridiculous* thinking that the only way you are going to > >get > >community involvement is by having government schools. That's absolutely > >backwards from reality. > > > >As has been pointed out many times, competition in education drives prices > >down and quality up. Monopolies are always the worst possible option. > > > >What the liberals are *really* afraid of is that parent will have > >educational > >choice -- and parents may not choose what the liberals are feeding. > > > >This would probably only *really* hit home if every MSD parent had to write > >a check for $1,000 every month of the school year (since the cost at MSD is > >over $8,000 per child). I think if parents knew what was being charged for > >the education they are getting, there would be quite the little uproar. > > > >Best, > >Dale Courtney > >Moscow, Idaho > > _________________________________________________________________ > MSN 8 helps eliminate e-mail viruses. Get 2 months FREE*. > http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus > > _____________________________________________________ > List services made available by First Step Internet, > serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994. > http://www.fsr.net > mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com > ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! http://sbc.yahoo.com From johnbharrell@yahoo.com Sun Jun 29 07:29:27 2003 From: johnbharrell@yahoo.com (John Harrell) Date: Sat, 28 Jun 2003 23:29:27 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Vision2020] MSD and all that controversy In-Reply-To: <20030629061529.2316.qmail@web14406.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20030629062927.25612.qmail@web13403.mail.yahoo.com> Don't know who you are, you didn't sign your name, but nevertheless, I couldn't help but respond to - Your question: "I guess the most puzzling thing for me to understand is if we just tossed out the School district and gave everyone back their almighty tax dollars, what kind of children would we have then?" My answer - uh, educated ones? Cheers! John Harrell --- mysticchic wrote: > Once again I open my e-mail to find that everyone has left the saga of Mr. anti- Christ > church and turned their wrath towards apparently to the only other important issue in > Moscow: The dreadful Moscow School District. I realize that it takes a lot of money to > support the district, but come on folks it is a good cause. These are children who > should be given a chance to an education just as each one of us was given. > I read what a lot of people continue to write and I always wonder, How many of these > people actually have school age children?, and if you do , do you offer to help your > children's school by volunteering? > I guess the most puzzling thing for me to understand is if we just tossed out the > School district and gave everyone back their almighty tax dollars, what kind of > children would we have then? > > > > > --------------------------------- > Do you Yahoo!? > SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! http://sbc.yahoo.com From johnbharrell@yahoo.com Sun Jun 29 07:49:03 2003 From: johnbharrell@yahoo.com (John Harrell) Date: Sat, 28 Jun 2003 23:49:03 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Vision2020] MSD and Vouchers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030629064903.81157.qmail@web13407.mail.yahoo.com> Mr. Dovovan Arnold, Wow, you almost got there with this one, didn't you. Parents helping parents. People helping people. Great idea! Parents should get together, without "the government", to determine the best way for them to educate their children. For example, as you said below, parents with children of special needs can get together to support and help one another. This is great! I am all for it! Parental involvement would be wonderful, and as discussed elsewhere, this is possibly what is helping some children succeed. Great idea! Cheers! John Harrell --- Donovan Arnold wrote: --------------------------------- Dale, I am going to make this as simple as possible so even you can understand the problems with your suggestions. Imagine a small town with a school of only 100 children. The entire community all chips in, regardless of if they have children or not, to reach $1 million to educate them. Ten of the children have a disability of some kind, five are in dire poverty, and 10 are non-christians. The ten disabled children and five impoverished children cost the community $400,000. The remaining 85 children cost $600,000. A group of parents decide that the average cost of educating a child is $10,000 a piece. They also calculate the cost of a neighboring community Christian School only costs $10,000 and year and that school has test scores twice as high as the community school. So they try to argue that they should get their ten thousand dollars from the community to send their child to the other school. Let us pretend that they get their way in your fiction society. So they get their ten grand and 25% of the students transfer to the other private school. The disabled children were told they would be charged $40,000 because of the increased costs if they wanted to attend. Outside of the budget for all the parents. The impoverished parents could not afford the transportation costs and food costs because they were not given free food or transportation. The ten non-christian students were denied entrance because they were not Christian and/or parents rejected the religious curriculum. The remaining 75 children all applied too, unfortunately, they all did not test high enough and only 1/3 of those students were accepted, the top 1/3. The remaining students consist of the 10 disabled children, 5 impoverished students, and the bottom ranking 2/3 on test scores and a reduced budget of only $750,000. 15 of the remaining students take $400,000 of the $750,000. That leaves $350,000 for the remaining 60 students in the school. Or, $5,833 for the remaining students. Those 60 students are 60% of the original population. They had $7,058 being spent on them. Now they have $5,833 a piece. This is not increasing opportunity, this is decreasing opportunity. Other side effects are. Loss of jobs in the community. Lower test scores for the students because the highest testing students left. Reduced state funding because the population declined. Why should members of the community contribute to the declined education of 60% of the students in favor of the top 25% privileged students? Why is it that you don't see this concept and the majority of US Citizens do? Why do you ignore these fact? Thanks! Donovan J Arnold --------------------------------- Add photos to your e-mail with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*._____________________________________________________ List services made available by First Step Internet, serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994. http://www.fsr.net mailto:Vision2020@moscow.comŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! http://sbc.yahoo.com From donovanarnold@hotmail.com Sun Jun 29 07:53:58 2003 From: donovanarnold@hotmail.com (Donovan Arnold) Date: Sat, 28 Jun 2003 23:53:58 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] How one ID school district dealt with declining enrollment Message-ID:

John,

Boo Hoo! Waahahha. Your surest defense and argument that the public educational system is a failure is yourself as an example. Or your surest defeat of your argument is you were privately educated. You couldn't even answer my questions with your own words. Anytime you want to compare your ideals to mine and see which fits closer to the concepts of Hitler let me know. I fought for 6 six year along side Tony Steward to bring down the Aryan Nations in Hayden Lake when I lived there. 95% of the Minority Vote at UI went to me when I ran for office three times at UI. I have been elected eight times by the most liberal anti-hitler people in Moscow and Coeur d'Alene.

You conservatives have been losing ground every day since the inception of educating the public in the United States. And you hate it, attacking the system that makes it so is the last desperate hope you have left to indoctrinate children with false nationalism and ignorance that rationalizes your bigotry, greed, sexism, homophobia, segregationism, and hypocrisy to maintain a rich white male dominated United States.

I doubt any reasoning will produce much outcome with you. In the words of

Hendrick Van Loon
Any formal attack on ignorance is bound to fail because the masses are always ready to defend their most precious possession -- their ignorance.

Lets go through the timeline shall we:

1865: Slavery abolished, destroys Southern Greed

1911: End of Private Monopolies

1920: Women gain right to vote

1945: Integration of the Military

1954: End to segregation

1962: One person one vote

1966: Citizens gain legal Miranda Rights

1973: Women gain right to control their own bodies

2004: Affirmative Action Approved

2004: Gays gain right to privacy

You obviously are incapable of rational thought or even understanding the definition LIBERAL or  CONSERVATIVE. You claim I think like an extreme conservative and an extreme liberal at the same time. Do you propose that a man can be at the highest and lowest point on earth at the same time too? No rational man would claim such is possible.  Let me give a few quotes of the philosophy that you DO NOT FOLLOW and I DO:

1820 Dec. 27. Thomas Jefferson "This institution (University of Virginia) will be based on the illimitable freedom of the human mind. For here we are not afraid to follow truth wherever it may lead, nor to tolerate any error so long as reason is left free to combat it."

1818. "A system of general education, which shall reach every description of our citizens from the richest to the poorest, as it was the earliest, so will it be the latest of all the public concerns in which I shall permit myself to take an interest." Thomas Jefferson


"A Bible and a newspaper in every house, a good school in every district - all studied and appreciated as they merit - are the principle support of virtue, morality, and civil liberty." Benjamin Franklin-1778

Quote from Diogenes

"The foundation of every state is the education of its youth."

Quote from Benjamin Disraeli

"Upon the education of the people of this country, the fate of this country depends."
 
Frederick Douglass

To educate a man is to unfit him to be a slave.

Thomas Jefferson
Above all things I hope the education of the common people will be attended to, convinced that on their good sense we may rely with the most security for the preservation of a due degree of liberty.

 

Rev. Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr.
The Negro has no room to make any substantial compromises because his store of advantages is too small. He must press unrelentingly for quality, integrated education or his whole drive for freedom will be undermined by the absence of a most vital and indispensable element -- learning.

 

Hendrick Van Loon
Any formal attack on ignorance is bound to fail because the masses are always ready to defend their most precious possession -- their ignorance.

 

You follow the following people:

Frank Zappa
Drop out of school before your mind rots from exposure to our mediocre educational system. Forget about the Senior Prom and go to the library and educate yourself if you've got any guts. Some of you like pep rallies and plastic robots who tell you what to read. Forget I mentioned it... Rise for the flag salute.

 

Will Rogers
Some of these days they are going to remove so much of the 'hooey' and the thousands of things the schools have become clogged up with, and we will find that we can educate our broods for about one-tenth of the price and learn 'em something that they might accidentally use after they escape.

 

Ronald Reagan
We developed at the local school district level probably the best public school system in the world. Or it was until the Federal government added Federal interference to Federal financial aid and eroded educational quality in the process.

 

Barry Goldwater
The Trilateralist Commission is international...(and)...is intended to be the vehicle for multinational consolidation of the commercial and banking interests by seizing control of the political government of the United States. The Trilateralist Commission represents a skillful, coordinated effort to seize control and consolidate the four centers of power - political, monetary, intellectual, and ecclesiastical.

 

Dubya:

"When schools do not teach and will not change, parents and students must have other meaningful options, "If somebody's got a better idea, I hope they bring it forward."

You follow the minds of morons. I follow the minds of the greatest people to grace the Earth. You really expect the common person to give you sole ability to determine the future of anyone when you follow Dubya over the intelligence of Thomas Jefferson? Such would be scandalous and downright immoral. You lost in the past, you are losing now, and will always lose in the future. Liberals will always win. Even Strom Thurmond moved way to the left before he died. Humans make progress, thus the liberals will always win and conservatives will always lose.

Thanks! 

Donovan J. Arnold



>From: John Harrell
>To: Donovan Arnold , thansen@moscow.com, vision2020@moscow.com
>Subject: RE: [Vision2020] How one ID school district dealt with declining enrollment
>Date: Sat, 28 Jun 2003 21:42:58 -0700 (PDT)
>
>LOL
>
>Mr. Donovan Arnold,
>
>Your thinking is flawed. You seem to have this modernistic thought that requires
>that the government do everything for us. The same thought as Marx, and Lenin,
>et al. You think progressive taxes are good, that government controlled education
>is good, that government control of farming is good, that government control over
>all services are good. Iraq's dictator had the same kind of thinking, as did
>Hitler. This kind of thinking has been proven to be false and no longer a valid
>way for society to function. Iraq's dictator had the same kind of thinking, as
>did Hitler.
>
>Your liberal thought has been wrong in the past, wrong now, and will always
>be wrong for the future.
>
>Why should the government control and dictate education? This is a thought process
>that Hitler loved.
>
>Here let me help you understand the kinds of people that you are associating
>with:
>
>QUOTATION: When an opponent declares, “I will not come over to your side,” I
>calmly say, “Your child belongs to us already.... What are you? You will pass
>on. Your descendants, however, now stand in the new camp. In a short time they
>will know nothing else but this new community.”
>
>ATTRIBUTION: Adolf Hitler (1889–1945), German dictator. speech, Nov. 6, 1933.
>Quoted in William L. Shirer, “Education in the Third Reich,” ch. 8, The Rise
>and Fall of the Third Reich (1959); speaking about the schools and their
>indoctrination of the Hilterjugend (Hitler Youth Corps).
>
>It was Adolph Hitler who said, "Let me control the textbooks, and I will
>control the state."
>
>Norman Thomas, Socialist and member of the Civil Liberties Union, boldly
>told the world, "The American people will never knowingly adopt Socialism,
>but under the name of liberalism, they will adopt every fragment of the
>Socialist program until one day America will be a Socialist nation without
>ever knowing how it happened."
>
>"Give me your four year olds," said Lenin "and in a generation I will build
>a Socialist state."
>
>Lesbian author Patricia Warren, boldly told the gay and lesbian community,
>"It is the FIRST fact of civilization that--whoever captures the kids - owns
>the future."
>
>In his book ‘The Science Of Power’, Benjamin Kidd wrote, "Give us the young.
>-- Give us the young and We will create a new mind and a new Earth in a SINGLE
>generation."
>
>Ross L. Finny, a socialist PhD in one of his books tells us this; "Everything
>depends on passing out the expert opinions of the social scientists to the
>masses of the people; the schools are the only adequate agency for this function."
>
>Lastly, the American Humanist Association understands the importance of
>capturing the children – for they have written: "In order to capture this
>nation, one has to totally remove moral and spiritual values and absolutes from
>the thinking of the child. The child has to think that there is no standard of
>right and wrong, that truth is relative, and that diversity is the only absolute
>to be gained."
>
>Yes, so when it comes to MY children, NOT YOURS, I take the responsiblity of
>raising them very serious. And the government should not have anything to do
>with it. The government has proven it can't create a "quality" education even
>if tries; and it has tried and tried and tried, with more money and more money
>and more money, yet if fails and fails and fails.
>
>Let me say it again, in case you missed it the first time:
>Your liberal thought has been wrong in the past, wrong now, and will always
>be wrong for the future.
>
>Cheers!
>John Harrell
>
>--- Donovan Arnold wrote:
>
>---------------------------------
>
>John,
>
>Interesting the mentality that you have. A couple of questions I have for you.
>
>
>1) Do you refer to children as property? Like a couch, dog, or car.
>
>
>2) You want people to stay out of the choices and the options you choose for your
>children.
>
>
>Do you then favor that all non-parents, or parents with children not in the school
>system, not pay any taxes to go to the public educational system? If they do it will
>effect the options and choices you have for your children. Why should they pay for the
>maintenance and care of *property* that is not theirs? Further, why should they give huge
>sums of money that they have absolutely no control over what happens to it?
>
>
>3) If parents are given absolute control of their children, how do we avoid abusive
>parents? Isn't regulating the parents a form of liberal control over a family? Doesn't
>preventing a child from an education a form of abuse?
>
>
>4) Isn't giving parents vouchers a form of welfare considering that all taxpayers are
>putting into the voucher yet are not getting something from it?
>
>
>5) Why should poor income people that have no children pay for your child's education
>when you have more money?
>
>
>6) Isn't the cost of paying for your child preventing some people from saving and having
>their own children?
>
>
>7) Having to pay for your child prevents some people from having children, isn't that
>*you* getting involved in their personal family life and the decisions they would like to
>make?
>
>
>I am just confused as to the way you are thinking. I am not implying you don't care for
>*your* children, it is evident that you do. But your thinking seems flawed and you need
>to clear some things up. Thanks!
>
>
>Donovan J Arnold
>
>
>
> >From: John Harrell
>
> >To: thansen@moscow.com, vision2020@moscow.com
>
> >Subject: RE: [Vision2020] How one ID school district dealt with declining enrollment
>
> >Date: Sat, 28 Jun 2003 17:24:06 -0700 (PDT)
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >Tom had said, "What is more important: your tax liability or your children's future?"
>
> >
>
> >You are joking again - right?!
>
> >
>
> >Well at least you said "your" children and not "our" children. So I thank you for that!
>
> >
>
> >And as a result of your question, thank you for allowing me to choose what is the best
>for my children. (A most illogical question posed in the first place. But false dilemmas
>are typical.)
>
> >
>
> >But will you really allow me to decide what is best for my childrens future? Or will you
>really decide that they are your children also and therefore try to decide for yourself
>what is best for my children. Get your nose out my family! But typical of most liberals,
>you must try to control every aspect of my life. Go away, leave my children alone!
>
> >
>
> >Cheers!
>
> >
>
> >John Harrell
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >---------------------------------
>
> >Do you Yahoo!?
>
> >SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month!
>
>
>
>
>
>---------------------------------
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>by First Step Internet, serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
> http://www.fsr.net
>mailto:Vision2020@moscow.comŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ
>
>
>__________________________________
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STOP MORE SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* From donovanarnold@hotmail.com Sun Jun 29 08:19:32 2003 From: donovanarnold@hotmail.com (Donovan Arnold) Date: Sun, 29 Jun 2003 00:19:32 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] MSD and all that controversy Message-ID:

John,

Do you have one iota of evidence to back this claim? Have you ever done an ounce of research on the educational attainment of a child before a public educational system was introduced into the society? Name a few and show how they advanced beyond similar cultures with a public educational system. I am willing to bet that you are just talking and never realized that the average person in the 1770's to 1920's before public education was in every community and required for every child to attend that you didn't know that they were lucky to have a 8th grade level education of a child today. George Washington was in the richest family in the country, and he never completed 6th grade.

Donovan J Arnold

>From: John Harrell
>To: mysticchic , vision2020@moscow.com
>Subject: Re: [Vision2020] MSD and all that controversy
>Date: Sat, 28 Jun 2003 23:29:27 -0700 (PDT)
>
>Don't know who you are, you didn't sign your name, but nevertheless, I couldn't
>help but respond to -
>
>Your question: "I guess the most puzzling thing for me to understand is if we
>just tossed out the School district and gave everyone back their almighty tax
>dollars, what kind of children would we have then?"
>
>My answer - uh, educated ones?
>
>Cheers!
>John Harrell
>
>
>--- mysticchic wrote:
> > Once again I open my e-mail to find that everyone has left the saga of Mr. anti- Christ
> > church and turned their wrath towards apparently to the only other important issue in
> > Moscow: The dreadful Moscow School District. I realize that it takes a lot of money to
> > support the district, but come on folks it is a good cause. These are children who
> > should be given a chance to an education just as each one of us was given.
> > I read what a lot of people continue to write and I always wonder, How many of these
> > people actually have school age children?, and if you do , do you offer to help your
> > children's school by volunteering?
> > I guess the most puzzling thing for me to understand is if we just tossed out the
> > School district and gave everyone back their almighty tax dollars, what kind of
> > children would we have then?
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ---------------------------------
> > Do you Yahoo!?
> > SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month!
>
>
>__________________________________
>Do you Yahoo!?
>SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month!
>http://sbc.yahoo.com
>
>_____________________________________________________
> List services made available by First Step Internet,
> serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
> http://www.fsr.net
> mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com
>ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ

Protect your PC - Click here for McAfee.com VirusScan Online From ted_moffett@hotmail.com Sun Jun 29 08:50:12 2003 From: ted_moffett@hotmail.com (Ted Moffett) Date: Sun, 29 Jun 2003 07:50:12 +0000 Subject: [Vision2020] US Government booted out of your bedroom Message-ID: Luke: Thanks for your reply. We could go into this in detail, but this issue was sliced and diced on vision2020, and I posted so much on the nudity ordinance, I think that if you really want to get into this topic, I should refer you to some of the earlier V2020 posts on this from last summer and fall. Start with the July 2002 V2020 posts. A huge number of the V2020 posts in July 2002 and for some months after are about the female topless law debate. I do not believe in criminalizing the mere sight of the human body. That's it in a nutshell. Ted >From: "Luke" >To: "Ted Moffett" , london@moscow.com >CC: "vision2020" >Subject: Re: [Vision2020] US Government booted out of your bedroom >Date: Fri, 27 Jun 2003 21:56:32 -0700 > >Mr. Moffet: > > > This is just like the ridiculous topless female law we have in Moscow. > > People said the police would not go around trying to zealously enforce >the > > ordinance, but then why have bad law on the books at all? > >Because some lewd women walked around town without shirts on, of course! >You >aren't in favor of topless women roaming the streets, are you? > >Luke Nieuwsma > > >_____________________________________________________ > List services made available by First Step Internet, > serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994. > http://www.fsr.net > mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com >ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ _________________________________________________________________ Help STOP SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From donovanarnold@hotmail.com Sun Jun 29 08:59:49 2003 From: donovanarnold@hotmail.com (Donovan Arnold) Date: Sun, 29 Jun 2003 00:59:49 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] MSD and Vouchers Message-ID:

John,

You need to take political science 101. A group of people that get together to decide and make decisions as a group to decide how they will divide up their resources is called a democratic government. Thus, you contradict yourself, you say the "government" should not be involved. How is this possible when the "government" is the "people"? You just don't recognize it as so because the "government" or "people" have decided in a way that you disagree. Only a dictatorship, could give you what you want because the "people" or the "government" have rejected your ideals.

By the way, the parents of the students with disabilities in Idaho have gotten together, have been together for years and years. If you followed the actions of parents you would know this. My Mother is the Chair of the "Idaho Disabilities Association" and they have decided to REJECT, yes that is correct, REJECT, your ideals of getting the "government" or "people" out of the decisions and help of the people and get the needs of their children met instead. They realized that things like VOUCHERS will destroy their chances of their child getting the funding needed to properly educate their children. Most of the parents are frustrated with the idea of Vouchers that will drain such valuable resources from their child. In Fact, most are now fighting to help get more funding and resources into the school system. They testify repeatedly before the Idaho State Legislature and committees to just hold off the massive cuts that Republicans keep trying to make. Governor Kempthorne has! passed legislation to make it more difficult to qualify for ANY aid to get diagnosed for a disability so schools can avoid meeting expensive ADA requirements to please selfish taxpayers. So sleep well tonight knowing that you are working AGAINST these children. Children with mental, physical and emotional disabilities. Know that your ideals are preventing a young girl raped from getting treatment. Know that your ideals are keeping a man in a wheelchair from attending courses. Know that your ideals are preventing a student with dyslexia from learning to read because of what you are pushing. My mother knows hundreds of these children personally and can fill your life with stories of the mistreatment of children all across Idaho because of your denial to help and the policies you are pushing.

Thanks!

Donovan J. Arnold



 

>From: John Harrell
>To: Donovan Arnold , dale@courtneys.us, vision2020@moscow.com
>Subject: Re: [Vision2020] MSD and Vouchers
>Date: Sat, 28 Jun 2003 23:49:03 -0700 (PDT)
>
>Mr. Dovovan Arnold,
>
>Wow, you almost got there with this one, didn't you.
>
>Parents helping parents. People helping people. Great idea!
>
>Parents should get together, without "the government", to determine
>the best way for them to educate their children. For example, as you
>said below, parents with children of special needs can get together to
>support and help one another. This is great! I am all for it! Parental
>involvement would be wonderful, and as discussed elsewhere, this is
>possibly what is helping some children succeed.
>
>Great idea!
>
>Cheers!
>John Harrell
>
>
>--- Donovan Arnold wrote:
>
>---------------------------------
>
>Dale,
>
>I am going to make this as simple as possible so even you can understand the problems
>with your suggestions.
>
>
>Imagine a small town with a school of only 100 children.
>
>
>The entire community all chips in, regardless of if they have children or not, to reach
>$1 million to educate them.
>
>
>Ten of the children have a disability of some kind, five are in dire poverty, and 10 are
>non-christians.
>
>
>The ten disabled children and five impoverished children cost the community $400,000. The
>remaining 85 children cost $600,000.
>
>
>A group of parents decide that the average cost of educating a child is $10,000 a piece.
>They also calculate the cost of a neighboring community Christian School only costs
>$10,000 and year and that school has test scores twice as high as the community school.
>
>
>So they try to argue that they should get their ten thousand dollars from the community
>to send their child to the other school.
>
>
>Let us pretend that they get their way in your fiction society.
>
>
>So they get their ten grand and 25% of the students transfer to the other private school.
>The disabled children were told they would be charged $40,000 because of the increased
>costs if they wanted to attend. Outside of the budget for all the parents. The
>impoverished parents could not afford the transportation costs and food costs because
>they were not given free food or transportation.
>
>
>The ten non-christian students were denied entrance because they were not Christian
>and/or parents rejected the religious curriculum.
>
>
>The remaining 75 children all applied too, unfortunately, they all did not test high
>enough and only 1/3 of those students were accepted, the top 1/3.
>
>
>The remaining students consist of the 10 disabled children, 5 impoverished students, and
>the bottom ranking 2/3 on test scores and a reduced budget of only $750,000.
>
>
>15 of the remaining students take $400,000 of the $750,000. That leaves $350,000 for the
>remaining 60 students in the school. Or, $5,833 for the remaining students.
>
>
>Those 60 students are 60% of the original population. They had $7,058 being spent on
>them. Now they have $5,833 a piece.
>
>
>This is not increasing opportunity, this is decreasing opportunity.
>
>
>Other side effects are.
>
>
>Loss of jobs in the community.
>
>
>Lower test scores for the students because the highest testing students left.
>
>
>Reduced state funding because the population declined.
>
>
>Why should members of the community contribute to the declined education of 60% of the
>students in favor of the top 25% privileged students?
>
>
>Why is it that you don't see this concept and the majority of US Citizens do?
>
>
>Why do you ignore these fact?
>
>
>Thanks!
>
>
>Donovan J Arnold
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>---------------------------------
>Add photos to your e-mail with MSN 8. Get 2 months
>FREE*._____________________________________________________ List services made available
>by First Step Internet, serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
> http://www.fsr.net
>mailto:Vision2020@moscow.comŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ
>
>
>__________________________________
>Do you Yahoo!?
>SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month!
>http://sbc.yahoo.com
>
>_____________________________________________________
> List services made available by First Step Internet,
> serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
> http://www.fsr.net
> mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com
>ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ

Add photos to your e-mail with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. From ted_moffett@hotmail.com Sun Jun 29 09:37:06 2003 From: ted_moffett@hotmail.com (Ted Moffett) Date: Sun, 29 Jun 2003 08:37:06 +0000 Subject: [Vision2020] Religious Diversity Education Message-ID: Luke et. al. Again, you adopt an extreme interpretation of how much we all must think and act the same before chaos engulfs us. What you are saying is truly frightening in the stereotyping and oversimplifications you make of complex issues! If you can't see that this sort of extreme thinking is what leads to wars, then you need religious diversity education desperately. Remember my comments on the rules of basketball differing and being changed yet the game is still played according to rules with people enjoying the sport? How can the NBA and the NCAA have differing rules yet both leagues play in an organized manner? They don't wage battles to force one league to play with the same rules as the other league. Hey, this basketball metaphor is your creation, so if the reality of how basketball is played does not fit your worldview, you should have picked a different metaphor. So why can't the Islamic and Christian communities each have their own religious "league" and play their game, and leave the other league alone? After all, both are monotheistic religions who accept Christ as an important spiritual figure. Why must the existence of these two religions demand one win over the other? Why can't they coexist in peace? Because of people who think like you! And applying this to Democrats and Republicans, they are both mostly Christian in their beliefs, as are most of the members of the US military, so I don't know where you get the idea that Democrats are non-Christians and Republicans are commonly Christians, this must be more of your extreme stereotyping at work. But there are differences of opinion that are debated and argued and a compromise is reached. Democracy is not a pretty and efficient machine, but it is constructed here in the USA in theory to prevent any one group from gaining total control of our government or society. It appears from your comments that you do not respect the principles of democracy, you want us to all be singing your tune, and any disagreement on religion or ethics will be met with a hysteria based on a fear of chaos and disorder. This is fascist thinking, plain and simple. BTW, I know very well the world is not all fine and dandy, and those with rigid irrational views of how we all should think and act the same, are a large part of the reason. Ted >From: "Luke" >To: "Ted Moffett" >, thansen@moscow.com, donovanarnold@hotmail.com >CC: vision2020@moscow.com >Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Religious Diversity Education >Date: Fri, 27 Jun 2003 22:17:43 -0700 > >Mr. Moffet: > > > You imply the US military is somehow amiss in offering a religiously >diverse > > support system for the men and women who fight to defend us? So a man >or > > women who is risking their life for us who happens to be Islamic or >Jewish > > or Hindu should not receive this religiously diverse support? > > What "reforms" are you suggesting? > > The teaching of the truth, of course. Unless we all say and believe >and >act according to the same ideals, we cannot function together. Look at our >nation; you have Democrats, the largely non-Christian liberals who have >adopted "loose" standards, and you have Republicans, the commonly Christian >conservatives who still have semi-rigid standards of decency and morality. >And at times the nation is simply chaotic. > Practically every president since Reagan (and some before him, too) >has >had a constant war with a Congress led by the opposing party. The reason? >the two main groups have radically different beliefs. It has become so that >whenever one party initiates a particular movement, no matter what the >movement may entail, you can count on the other party doing their level >best >to negate any progress made. Yet this is only one example of the morality >clashes that we have all the time. > The world isn't all just fine and dandy like you make-believe. We >cannot >all "just get along" and believe what we want to believe. There are endless >clashes; the problem isn't that people just don't tolerate each other, it >is >that their beliefs are inconsistent with others. That is why there have >been >so many religious wars, that is why there is such a rift in this nation. >And >there is an answer to this problem. > > > All the best, >Luke Nieuwsma > > >_____________________________________________________ > List services made available by First Step Internet, > serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994. > http://www.fsr.net > mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com >ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ _________________________________________________________________ MSN 8 helps eliminate e-mail viruses. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus From donovanarnold@hotmail.com Sun Jun 29 09:48:09 2003 From: donovanarnold@hotmail.com (Donovan Arnold) Date: Sun, 29 Jun 2003 01:48:09 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] MSD Pay and Tenure--a reply Message-ID:

John,

You are the MOST egocentric, self-centered, greedy, unappreciative, selfish man I have ever met!

HOW DARE YOU, accuse ME, of being in YOUR POCKET BOOK. I am not the one with children in the school system. I am paying YOUR BUTT to have children in the school system. I am PAYING YOUR parents' medical care, and social security. YOU ARE THE ONE IN MY POCKET BOOK.

You are more concerned about yourself then you are your OWN CHILDREN AND PARENTS (sic)! What happened when your grandparents gave you a check for your birthday, did you punch your grandma in stomach and kick your grandpa in the groin?

I am curious why YOU think I, making less then 30% what you do, should have to give you money? If you don't like that then why don't you write me a check back?????????????

Then I can give the money back to a family that will not attack me for it and accuse ME of costing them more money.

I and thousands of other Moscow residents are subsidizing YOU and your FAMILY. You better start being appreciative of that FACT!

You are nothing but a whiner that is cutting off your nose despite your face. You keep voting for these politicians that give tax cuts to the rich and wondering why your taxes keep going up. HELLO! Vote for someone that gives a tax hike on the rich so the debt goes down and you get something for your money instead of spending it all just on the interest on the debt. Vote for people that will spend billions on putting people together in this country rather then spending trillions blowing people apart in another.

I don't mind giving my money up to educate your children, dispite my poverty status, but I will be damned if I get attacked for doing so.

Donovan J Arnold 

>From: John Harrell

>To: Donovan Arnold , dale@courtneys.us, vision2020@moscow.com

>Subject: Re: [Vision2020] MSD Pay and Tenure--a reply

>Date: Sat, 28 Jun 2003 23:02:47 -0700 (PDT)

>

>Mr. Donovan Arnold,

>

>You have to be kidding again. This is so hilarious. You really need to

>start thinking.

>

>"Yes, and millions more are doing it for free, it is called public school."

>

>For Free!?!? You are joking!

>

>Why is it all liberals think everything is free if it comes from the government?

>Free services for this, free services for that, free free free! Think again. It

>is not free. The only thing that is being freed here is my money from my pocket.

>

>Please Mr. Arnold, STOP FREEING ME FROM MY MONEY!

>

>I work hard to provide for my family, but how am I supposed to provide for my

>family if you keep freeing me from my money? How am I supposed to provide for my

>elderly parents if you keep freeing me from my money? How are my elderly parents

>supposed to be live if you keep freeing them from their money? More levies, more

>bonds, more free services, more free schools, yea, right, stop joking around!

>Get outta my pocketbook, get outta my family.

>

>Liberals - wrong in the past, wrong now, and wrong for the future!

>

>Cheers!

>John Harrell

>From: John Harrell
>To: Donovan Arnold , dale@courtneys.us, vision2020@moscow.com
>Subject: Re: [Vision2020] MSD Pay and Tenure--a reply
>Date: Sat, 28 Jun 2003 23:02:47 -0700 (PDT)
>
>Mr. Donovan Arnold,
>
>You have to be kidding again. This is so hilarious. You really need to
>start thinking.
>
>"Yes, and millions more are doing it for free, it is called public school."
>
>For Free!?!? You are joking!
>
>Why is it all liberals think everything is free if it comes from the government?
>Free services for this, free services for that, free free free! Think again. It
>is not free. The only thing that is being freed here is my money from my pocket.
>
>Please Mr. Arnold, STOP FREEING ME FROM MY MONEY!
>
>I work hard to provide for my family, but how am I supposed to provide for my
>family if you keep freeing me from my money? How am I supposed to provide for my
>elderly parents if you keep freeing me from my money? How are my elderly parents
>supposed to be live if you keep freeing them from their money? More levies, more
>bonds, more free services, more free schools, yea, right, stop joking around!
>Get outta my pocketbook, get outta my family.
>
>Liberals - wrong in the past, wrong now, and wrong for the future!
>
>Cheers!
>John Harrell
>
>
>
>
>--- Donovan Arnold wrote:
>
>---------------------------------
>
>Dale,
>
>I am glad you broke up your responses into many emails. Otherwise I don't think I could
>handle so many misconceptions and twists of the truth in one email.
>
>
> >"*If* the cost driver of education were the children, then it's senseless
>
>
>
>
> >that inflation-adjusted spending has *increased* by over 100% in that same
>
>
>
>
> >time."
>
>
>This is where another one of assumptions is WRONG! It is not children that causes the
>cost of of school to rise. It is the cost of things related to the children. You cannot
>compare 1992 to 2003. You seem to think that "child enrollment" is the only factor that
>should affect costs of education. This is like saying that rent should go down in
>proportion to the number of children you have in the house. My parents are paying 4x in
>costs of rent, utilities, and medical costs that they were in 1986 when they had 3
>children in the house. Gee, perhaps they should go without medical treatment, housing or
>utilities.
>
>
>Things have changed a bit since then, and other costs such as medical, housing, rent,
>utilities and quality of life have changed since 1992.
>
>
>"How odd. Instate tuition at UI is $3,000 per year; out of State tuition at
>
>
>
>
> >UI is $10,000 per year; and MSD's "tuition" in FY01 was $8,772 and is
>
>
>
>
> >projected to have been $10,112 in FY03. That means that it is cheaper to
>
>
>
>
> >give someone a B.A. than it is to put them from 9th to 12th grade."
>
>
>This like the twisting of all your other statistics is WRONG!
>
>
>Let's compare the two shall we:
>
>
>Cost of food to a student at UI 120 meals a month: $1200
>
>
>Tuition and fees: $3144
>
>
>Books: $650
>
>
>Required medical insurance: $641
>
>
>Parking permit $65
>
>
>Portion paid by the tax payer: $10,000
>
>
>Number of Hours spend in class: 15
>
>
>Total Cost: $15,700 for minimum of 15 hours of class for 8 months of classes. Or about
>$500 a credit hour (dived by two semesters assuming 15 credits a semester). Estimated
>cost of attendance in 2006: Over $20,000
>
>
>Total Cost of attending to student Public elementary school $0
>
>
>Total Cost of attending one pupil to Public elementary school to tax payer $8777
>
>
>Total hours in school 30 hours of class per week for nine months
>
>
>Total cost $146 per credit how hour. That is a 300% less cost then a BA degree.
>
>
>"How is that possible? You've *got* to be kidding! Non-parochial private
>
>
>
>
> >schools all across the country do it every day. You can get a top of the
>
>
>
>
> >line education for under $3k/year. And homeschoolers across the country are
>
>
>
>
> >doing it on a daily basis."
>
>
>Yes, and millions more are doing it for free, it is called public school.
>
>
>Donovan J Arnold
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>---------------------------------
>STOP MORE SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months
>FREE*_____________________________________________________ List services made available
>by First Step Internet, serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
> http://www.fsr.net
>mailto:Vision2020@moscow.comŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ
>
>
>__________________________________
>Do you Yahoo!?
>SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month!
>http://sbc.yahoo.com
>
>_____________________________________________________
> List services made available by First Step Internet,
> serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
> http://www.fsr.net
> mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com
>ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ

The new MSN 8: smart spam protection and 2 months FREE* From thansen@moscow.com Sun Jun 29 14:55:41 2003 From: thansen@moscow.com (Tom Hansen) Date: Sun, 29 Jun 2003 06:55:41 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] Religious Diversity Education In-Reply-To: <028401c33e00$0b323df0$2f00a8c0@MOBILELUKE> Message-ID: Luke Nieuwsma stated: "Unless we all say and believe and act according to the same ideals, we cannot function together." Wrong, Mr. Nieuwsma. Diversity is what holds this country together. This nation's origin is founded in its diversity znd willingness to accept and foster different faiths. I assume that we probably will not hear from you for the next couple weeks as you more than likely wil be at the National Aryan Nations Convention in Coeur d'Alene, huh? Luke Nieuwsma further stated: "Practically every president since Reagan has had a constant war with a Congress led by the opposing party." Let's see . . . George W. Bush Sr - Republican president/Democratic House of Representatives/Republican Senate. You are kinda right. Bill Clinton - Democratic president/Democratic House of Representatives/Republican Senate. You are kinda right. George W. Bush Jr. - Republican president/Republican House of Representaives/Republican Senate. You are wrong there. Luke Nieuwsma again stated: " . . . no matter what the movement may entail, you can count on the other party doing their level best to negate any progress made." You are kinda right, Mr. Nieuwsma. It took President Clinton eight years to get this nation out of a 3-trillion dollar deficit, resulting with almost a trillion dollar surplus. It took President Bush only two and a half years to get us back into a 600-billion dallar deficit, leaving a whole lot of children behind. Take care, Tom Hansen Moscow, Idaho From dale@courtneys.us Sun Jun 29 00:20:57 2003 From: dale@courtneys.us (Dale Courtney) Date: Sat, 28 Jun 2003 16:20:57 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] MSD Pay and Tenure--a reply References: <004801c33dc7$de5e3cd0$1d936bd1@DMCLAPTOP2> Message-ID: <000001c33e57$3a52af00$c2936bd1@DMCLAPTOP2> Donovan writes: > Once again, you offer statistics and whine to go with it. You offer no > detailed plan to deal with how the public educational system can cut the > budget and NOT cut services for the children and educators. Hmmm. Well, if you assume uncritically that spending will spiral out of control regardless of how many students leave MSD, then I doubt anything I could say could/would persuade you otherwise -- your mind will justify what your heart has already chosen. > >"If Moscow's population were to decrease from 28,000 people to 23,000 people > >over the course of 10 years, would you be in favor of increasing > >inflation-adjusted spending by 100% to the fire department, law enforcement, > >road maintenance, parks, sewage maintenance, ...?" > If the alternatives were to have no parks, no sewage, no fire protection, > and no law enforcement; > or for us to be forced to move and live in huddled masses with less parks, > less sewage treatment, less law enforcement, and less fire protection; > or to go without one of the previous services; > or to pay only a portion and receive ineffective services from all the about > services then Yes I would. Wow, you're such an either-or person -- *either* we spend 50% of our State/Local budget on government schools, *or* we have no education. I assume you would say the same thing about military spending? :) It's not an either/or thing here, Donovan. There are other options. 1. Dale's option: having the *best* education for the lowest possible cost. 2. Donovan's option: having the worst education for the highest possible cost. Gee, you choose! Oops, you have! > Likewise, this like asking would if you would rather have half the surgery > you need and pay $3000 or pay $10000 and get the entire surgery. Kind of > pointless to get half the surgery. A better comparison -- you can go and get the surgery from a private physician for $3,000 or from the VA hospital (government doctors) for a total cost of $10,000 (to the taxpayers). Same surgery, but one costs over 3 times as much. But, according to your logic, the VA procedure is "free". Sigh... > >"That's the relative numbers that the MSD has downsized in the last 10 > years." > You make horrible misleading comparisons Dale. This like comparing Cars to > computers. Computers cost 50% less every five years and the technology > doubles. Cars double in price every 5 years. A car doesn't crash 5x a day > either. And we're back again to the heart of the discussion -- government educational costs are spiraling out of control compared to the rest of the economy. For you, that's perfectly acceptable. Hey! Why not spend even *more*! We're getting a bargain at having it only increase by a factor of 3.4x over the student bail-out rate. For some of us, it's time to critically ask *why* those costs are spiraling out of control and not to accept that spiraling as the status quo. > You haven't provided that information because you know it can't be done. But it *has* been done and *is* being done all over the country (and the world) on a daily basis. Listen carefully: parental choice and competition among the private sector. If you put some competition into the mix, you will find that government school spending will decrease and performance would increase. If it didn't then parents will vote with their feet -- as many inner city parents have done. Many voters (and hence States) across this country have realized that the government *cannot* and *should not* educate our children -- we call this the "Separation of School and State". Many States are aggressively pursuing alternatives to the failing status quo that you support. That's what I'm proposing as well. Best, Dale Courtney Moscow, Idaho From dale@courtneys.us Sun Jun 29 17:07:54 2003 From: dale@courtneys.us (Dale Courtney) Date: Sun, 29 Jun 2003 09:07:54 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] MSD Pay and Tenure--a reply References: Message-ID: <005401c33e58$9a0663a0$c2936bd1@DMCLAPTOP2> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0051_01C33E1D.ECED3C50 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Donovan, You're not getting away with that. You said that the cost drivers in = government education was not the children (see your post: = http://lists2.fsr.net/pipermail/vision2020/2003-June/002863.html).=20 I was agreeing with your statement -- for the left, the cost drivers are = not the children. For those who care about education, it is -- and the = children are the driving factor.=20 I'd reread the post where I was agreeing with you -- those are your = words = (http://lists2.fsr.net/pipermail/vision2020/2003-June/002863.html). Context counts in conversations. It's unethical to lift a statement out = of context and twist it to say what you want to hear. Best, Dale ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Donovan Arnold=20 To: dale@courtneys.us ; vision2020@moscow.com=20 Sent: Saturday, June 28, 2003 17:23 Subject: Re: [Vision2020] MSD Pay and Tenure--a reply Dale, You wrote: "This is what I have been saying all along -- it's not = about the *children*." Interesting that you finally admit your true motives. Education is = about the *children* to most people in the community. Your obvious = motive is saving money for yourself, if it is not about the children. = Perhaps you can save money by shutting down orphanages too and throwing = the children on the street. While your at it, why don't you go lobby to = cut medical care and social security for the elderly and disabled, they = are 50% of your federal taxes. Thanks! Donovan J Arnold -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ----- Add photos to your e-mail with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. ------=_NextPart_000_0051_01C33E1D.ECED3C50 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Donovan,
 
You're not getting away with that. You said that the cost = drivers in=20 government education was not the children (see your post: http://lists2.fsr.net/pipermail/vision2020/2003-June/002863.html).=20
 
I was agreeing with your statement -- for the left, the cost = drivers=20 are not the children. For those who care about education, it is = -- and=20 the children are the driving factor.
 
I'd reread the post where I was agreeing with you -- those = are your=20 words (http://lists2.fsr.net/pipermail/vision2020/2003-June/002863.html).
 
Context counts in conversations. It's unethical to lift a statement = out of=20 context and twist it to say what you want to hear.
 
Best,
Dale
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Donovan Arnold
To: dale@courtneys.us ; vision2020@moscow.com
Sent: Saturday, June 28, 2003 = 17:23
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] MSD = Pay and=20 Tenure--a reply

Dale,

You wrote: "This is what I have been saying all along -- it's not = about=20 the
*children*."

Interesting that you finally admit your true motives. Education is = about=20 the *children* to most people in the community. Your obvious motive is = saving=20 money for yourself, if it is not about the children. Perhaps you can = save=20 money by shutting down orphanages too and throwing the children on the = street.=20 While your at it, why don't you go lobby to cut medical care and = social=20 security for the elderly and disabled, they are 50% of your federal = taxes.

Thanks!

Donovan J Arnold




Add photos to your e-mail with MSN 8. Get 2 months = FREE*.=20 ------=_NextPart_000_0051_01C33E1D.ECED3C50-- From dale@courtneys.us Sun Jun 29 17:16:04 2003 From: dale@courtneys.us (Dale Courtney) Date: Sun, 29 Jun 2003 09:16:04 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] Religious Diversity Education References: Message-ID: <008401c33e59$bdcf5980$c2936bd1@DMCLAPTOP2> > Wrong, Mr. Nieuwsma. Diversity is what holds this country together. This > nation's origin is founded in its diversity znd willingness to accept and > foster different faiths. Guess we should change the motto on our money: E Pluribus Unum. Dale Courtney Moscow, Idaho From thansen@moscow.com Sun Jun 29 17:40:56 2003 From: thansen@moscow.com (Tom Hansen) Date: Sun, 29 Jun 2003 09:40:56 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] Religious Diversity Education In-Reply-To: <008401c33e59$bdcf5980$c2936bd1@DMCLAPTOP2> Message-ID: Mr. Courtney - Do you understand the translation of "E Plurubus Unum"? I doubt it. It translates to "Out of many, one." In absolutely no way does that motto suggest that we as a people must be monogenous. The American people are heterogenous. There interests engulf a very very wide spectrum. We do not confine ourselves to just one choice. Think about it. Oops! You already have. Take care, Tom Hansen > -----Original Message----- > From: vision2020-admin@moscow.com [mailto:vision2020-admin@moscow.com]On > Behalf Of Dale Courtney > Sent: Sunday, June 29, 2003 9:16 AM > To: vision2020@moscow.com > Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Religious Diversity Education > > > > Wrong, Mr. Nieuwsma. Diversity is what holds this country > together. This > > nation's origin is founded in its diversity znd willingness to > accept and > > foster different faiths. > > Guess we should change the motto on our money: E Pluribus Unum. > > Dale Courtney > Moscow, Idaho > > _____________________________________________________ > List services made available by First Step Internet, > serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994. > http://www.fsr.net > mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com > ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ > From ltrwritr@moscow.com Sun Jun 29 17:50:09 2003 From: ltrwritr@moscow.com (Mark Rounds) Date: Sun, 29 Jun 2003 09:50:09 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Vision2020] MSD Pay and Tenure--a reply Message-ID: <200306291650.h5TGo7QW058463@whale2.fsr.net> To one and all, what ever happened to the self policing policy of one post per person per day? And the suggestion that we take time to cool off between posts? Its not a requirement, just good suggestions that have come from both sides of the debate. Mark Rounds From DonaldH675@aol.com Sun Jun 29 18:14:24 2003 From: DonaldH675@aol.com (DonaldH675@aol.com) Date: Sun, 29 Jun 2003 13:14:24 EDT Subject: [Vision2020] Meeting Educational Needs Message-ID: <10c.264d622f.2c307870@aol.com> --part1_10c.264d622f.2c307870_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dear Visionaries, The recent discussions between John Harrell and Donovan Arnold have raised some interesting questions about public vs. private education. I am hopeful that John (et al) can add some factual information to the debate. We know that public schools accept all children regardless of physical, emotional, or mental challenges. John, can you share with us, in general demographic terms, how Logos addresses the special educational needs of these children? How many kids needing special ed services are in Logos? In the event that severely handicapped or even moderately handicapped children are not admitted, what solution is offered to the parents of these kids? Would it be no school, home school, or government school? I am surprised, John, that you would introduce the rhetoric of Hitler in an attempt to prove your argument against liberals and public schools. We have talked before on this list about Hitler's expressed career guidance for women, that is, "children, church, and kitchen." The uncanny similarity to the life goals for the women of Christ Church should be disturbing to you - if you see Hitler and his fascist philosophy as problematic. I think it is fair to say that book burnings, rabid racism, hateful homophobia - the Rev. Fred Phelps for example, anti-Semitism and demands for lockstep political thinking are accurately associated with the Christian right - and by historical extension, the 3rd Reich. Come to think of it, handicapped people were also excluded from social interaction and education in those splendid days of German Aryan magic. John, I know that you are not a Nazi - and I know that the majority of Christ Church members aren't either. I also know that Donovan and his family have a strong and admirable history of commitment to meeting the social and educational needs of disabled people. And yes, you pay a considerable amount of money to educate your children in a way that is philosophically and religiously meaningful to you in addition to supporting a public educational system that does not serve your needs. Here's the difference, no matter how much money I was willing to pay to educate my grandchildren at Logos School, because of my religious, social, and political beliefs they would not be admitted. On the other hand, your children would be welcomed into public schools without qualifying questions. Private schools, by their nature, are deliberately developed on the idea of exclusion. Thankfully, our founding fathers and mothers, had a larger vision for American children, and I have to say, it gives me special pleasure that private school folks get to pay for it too. Best, Rose Huskey --part1_10c.264d622f.2c307870_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dear Visionaries,
The recent discussions between John Harrell and Donovan Arnold have raised s= ome interesting questions about public vs. private education.  I am hop= eful that John (et al) can add some factual information to the debate. = We know that public schools accept all children regardless of physical, emo= tional, or mental challenges.  John, can you share with us, in general=20= demographic terms, how Logos addresses the special educational needs of thes= e children?  How many kids needing special ed services are in Logos?&nb= sp; In the event that severely handicapped or even moderately handicapped ch= ildren are not admitted, what solution is offered to the parents of these ki= ds?  Would it be no school, home school, or government school?
I am surprised, John, that you would introduce the rhetoric of Hitler in an=20= attempt to prove your argument against liberals and public schools.  We= have talked before on this list about Hitler's expressed career guidance fo= r women, that is, "children, church, and kitchen."  The uncanny similar= ity to the life goals for the women of Christ Church should be disturbing to= you - if you see Hitler and his fascist philosophy as problematic.  I=20= think it is fair to say that book burnings, rabid racism, hateful homophobia= - the Rev. Fred Phelps for example,  anti-Semitism and demands for loc= kstep political thinking are accurately associated with the Christian right=20= - and by historical extension, the 3rd Reich.   Come to think of i= t, handicapped people were also excluded from social interaction and educati= on in those splendid days of German Aryan magic.
John, I know that you are not a Nazi - and I know that the majority of Chris= t Church members aren't either.  I also know that Donovan and his famil= y have a strong and admirable history of commitment to meeting the social an= d educational needs of disabled people.  And yes, you pay a considerabl= e amount of money to educate your children in a way that is philosophically=20= and religiously meaningful to you in addition to supporting a public educati= onal system that does not serve your needs.  Here's the difference, no=20= matter how much money I was willing to pay to educate my grandchildren at Lo= gos School, because of my religious, social, and political beliefs they woul= d not be admitted.  On the other hand, your children would be welcomed=20= into public schools without qualifying questions.  Private schools, by=20= their nature, are deliberately developed on the idea of exclusion.  Tha= nkfully, our founding fathers and mothers, had a larger vision for American=20= children, and I have to say, it gives me special pleasure that private schoo= l folks get to pay for it too.
Best,
Rose Huskey

--part1_10c.264d622f.2c307870_boundary-- From auntiestablishment@hotmail.com Sun Jun 29 20:47:08 2003 From: auntiestablishment@hotmail.com (Joan Opyr) Date: Sun, 29 Jun 2003 12:47:08 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] Gimme my money, George Message-ID: Good heavens above! If, as John Harrell suggests, the only choice we have is between supporting vouchers for private religious schools or Nazism, then please, Logos, etc., take my money. I can't remember all of the words to the Horst Wessel, I'm not limber enough to goose-step, and, unlike Adolf Hitler, I am not a vegetarian. Perhaps what we need in this country is more selective taxation. John is tired of having his money "freed" from his pocketbook to pay for public education when he doesn't even use it. I say, right on. Give John his money back, and give me mine, too. Here are some things I'm tired of paying for: 1) I'm tired of paying for the Secret Service to chase Jenna Bush from gin mill to gin mill. Couldn't AA just lend her a sponsor? 2) I'm tired of paying for maintenance on Route 66 and the Pacific Coast Highway. I've never even driven on the damn things. 3) I'm tired of stocking the shelves at Archer Daniels Midlands, Supermarket to the World. And why am I subsidizing the expansion of McDonald's into Russia and China? I feel hamburgled. 4) I'm tired of paying for those pasties John Ashcroft puts on topless statues at the Justice Department. Does he really think people will mistake the figure of blind justice for a lap dancer? 5) I'm tired of paying for Strom Thurmond's diapers. Wait--scratch that one. I'll be waiting for my check. Perhaps it'll come when those millions of low-income families get their child tax credits. In anticipation, Joan Opyr/Auntie Establishment Serving Idaho's liberal elite since 1993 _________________________________________________________________ Add photos to your e-mail with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail From ddjames@moscow.com Sun Jun 29 21:10:14 2003 From: ddjames@moscow.com (Deacon James) Date: Sun, 29 Jun 2003 13:10:14 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] Gimme my money, George References: Message-ID: <001c01c33e7a$74020ed0$47f2f5c7@gladiator> I have no idea what this means. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Joan Opyr" To: Sent: Sunday, June 29, 2003 12:47 PM Subject: [Vision2020] Gimme my money, George > Good heavens above! If, as John Harrell suggests, the only choice we have > is between supporting vouchers for private religious schools or Nazism, then > please, Logos, etc., take my money. I can't remember all of the words to > the Horst Wessel, I'm not limber enough to goose-step, and, unlike Adolf > Hitler, I am not a vegetarian. > > Perhaps what we need in this country is more selective taxation. John is > tired of having his money "freed" from his pocketbook to pay for public > education when he doesn't even use it. I say, right on. Give John his > money back, and give me mine, too. Here are some things I'm tired of paying > for: > > 1) I'm tired of paying for the Secret Service to chase Jenna Bush from gin > mill to gin mill. Couldn't AA just lend her a sponsor? > > 2) I'm tired of paying for maintenance on Route 66 and the Pacific Coast > Highway. I've never even driven on the damn things. > > 3) I'm tired of stocking the shelves at Archer Daniels Midlands, > Supermarket to the World. And why am I subsidizing the expansion of > McDonald's into Russia and China? I feel hamburgled. > > 4) I'm tired of paying for those pasties John Ashcroft puts on topless > statues at the Justice Department. Does he really think people will mistake > the figure of blind justice for a lap dancer? > > 5) I'm tired of paying for Strom Thurmond's diapers. Wait--scratch that > one. > > I'll be waiting for my check. Perhaps it'll come when those millions of > low-income families get their child tax credits. > > In anticipation, > > Joan Opyr/Auntie Establishment > Serving Idaho's liberal elite since 1993 > > _________________________________________________________________ > Add photos to your e-mail with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. > http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail > > _____________________________________________________ > List services made available by First Step Internet, > serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994. > http://www.fsr.net > mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com > ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ > From onewildearth@hotmail.com Sun Jun 29 21:12:15 2003 From: onewildearth@hotmail.com (Garrett Clevenger) Date: Sun, 29 Jun 2003 13:12:15 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] Surfer Gs' Acoustic Wave Machine- Moscow Coop, 7/1 5 to 7 pm Message-ID: Come keep cool in the waves with Surfer Garrett and Surfer Greg as they paddle out into the raging surf. Will they catch the tube or wipe out? Come find out. Moscow Food Coop Tuesday, July 1 2003 5 - 7 pm Mid-week Farmers Market Each Tuesday through October, in the parking lot of the Moscow Food Co-op. Plus, live music and a grilled dinner (BBQ including both vegetarian and meat options) in the Fourth Street garden at Co-op back door Garrett Clevenger http://www.icehouse.net/garrett "What are we doing to our Home?!:(" _________________________________________________________________ MSN 8 with e-mail virus protection service: 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus From johnbharrell@yahoo.com Sun Jun 29 21:36:41 2003 From: johnbharrell@yahoo.com (John Harrell) Date: Sun, 29 Jun 2003 13:36:41 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Vision2020] MSD Pay and Tenure--a reply In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030629203641.63026.qmail@web13409.mail.yahoo.com> Hello Mr. Donovan Arnold, Hmmmm, I seem to have struck a cord. I certainly did not mean to create such a froth. You said, "HOW DARE YOU, accuse ME, of being in YOUR POCKET BOOK. I am not the one with children in the school system. I am paying YOUR BUTT to have children in the school system. I am PAYING YOUR parents' medical care, and social security. YOU ARE THE ONE IN MY POCKET BOOK." You seem to be quite upset at being forced to pay for those services that someone else is enjoying. So either, pay happily or do something about it. I would offer this as a possible way of dealing with this payment issue. How about we all pay for the services, as you describe above, out of our own pocket? You can choose where you want to give and I can choose where I want to give - instead of a socialistic wealth distribution scheme. No one is forcibly taking your money from you, and then you don't have to be so upset. Choice, I am all for it! Diversity, I am all for it! Diversity of services and choice of where we decide to give, no forced payment. When people "choose" where they will or will not give their money; they do it happily, cheerfully - not in a sarcastic, hateful manner, as you seem to have shown above. Cheers! John Harrell --- Donovan Arnold wrote: --------------------------------- John, You are the MOST egocentric, self-centered, greedy, unappreciative, selfish man I have ever met! HOW DARE YOU, accuse ME, of being in YOUR POCKET BOOK. I am not the one with children in the school system. I am paying YOUR BUTT to have children in the school system. I am PAYING YOUR parents' medical care, and social security. YOU ARE THE ONE IN MY POCKET BOOK. You are more concerned about yourself then you are your OWN CHILDREN AND PARENTS (sic)! What happened when your grandparents gave you a check for your birthday, did you punch your grandma in stomach and kick your grandpa in the groin? I am curious why YOU think I, making less then 30% what you do, should have to give you money? If you don't like that then why don't you write me a check back????????????? Then I can give the money back to a family that will not attack me for it and accuse ME of costing them more money. I and thousands of other Moscow residents are subsidizing YOU and your FAMILY. You better start being appreciative of that FACT! You are nothing but a whiner that is cutting off your nose despite your face. You keep voting for these politicians that give tax cuts to the rich and wondering why your taxes keep going up. HELLO! Vote for someone that gives a tax hike on the rich so the debt goes down and you get something for your money instead of spending it all just on the interest on the debt. Vote for people that will spend billions on putting people together in this country rather then spending trillions blowing people apart in another. I don't mind giving my money up to educate your children, dispite my poverty status, but I will be damned if I get attacked for doing so. Donovan J Arnold >From: John Harrell >To: Donovan Arnold , dale@courtneys.us, vision2020@moscow.com >Subject: Re: [Vision2020] MSD Pay and Tenure--a reply >Date: Sat, 28 Jun 2003 23:02:47 -0700 (PDT) > >Mr. Donovan Arnold, > >You have to be kidding again. This is so hilarious. You really need to >start thinking. > >"Yes, and millions more are doing it for free, it is called public school." > >For Free!?!? You are joking! > >Why is it all liberals think everything is free if it comes from the government? >Free services for this, free services for that, free free free! Think again. It >is not free. The only thing that is being freed here is my money from my pocket. > >Please Mr. Arnold, STOP FREEING ME FROM MY MONEY! > >I work hard to provide for my family, but how am I supposed to provide for my >family if you keep freeing me from my money? How am I supposed to provide for my >elderly parents if you keep freeing me from my money? How are my elderly parents >supposed to be live if you keep freeing them from their money? More levies, more >bonds, more free services, more free schools, yea, right, stop joking around! >Get outta my pocketbook, get outta my family. > >Liberals - wrong in the past, wrong now, and wrong for the future! > >Cheers! >John Harrell >From: John Harrell >To: Donovan Arnold , dale@courtneys.us, vision2020@moscow.com >Subject: Re: [Vision2020] MSD Pay and Tenure--a reply >Date: Sat, 28 Jun 2003 23:02:47 -0700 (PDT) > >Mr. Donovan Arnold, > >You have to be kidding again. This is so hilarious. You really need to >start thinking. > >"Yes, and millions more are doing it for free, it is called public school." > >For Free!?!? You are joking! > >Why is it all liberals think everything is free if it comes from the government? >Free services for this, free services for that, free free free! Think again. It >is not free. The only thing that is being freed here is my money from my pocket. > >Please Mr. Arnold, STOP FREEING ME FROM MY MONEY! > >I work hard to provide for my family, but how am I supposed to provide for my >family if you keep freeing me from my money? How am I supposed to provide for my >elderly parents if you keep freeing me from my money? How are my elderly parents >supposed to be live if you keep freeing them from their money? More levies, more >bonds, more free services, more free schools, yea, right, stop joking around! >Get outta my pocketbook, get outta my family. > >Liberals - wrong in the past, wrong now, and wrong for the future! > >Cheers! >John Harrell > > > > >--- Donovan Arnold wrote: > >--------------------------------- > >Dale, > >I am glad you broke up your responses into many emails. Otherwise I don't think I could >handle so many misconceptions and twists of the truth in one email. > > > >"*If* the cost driver of education were the children, then it's senseless > > > > > >that inflation-adjusted spending has *increased* by over 100% in that same > > > > > >time." > > >This is where another one of assumptions is WRONG! It is not children that causes the >cost of of school to rise. It is the cost of things related to the children. You cannot >compare 1992 to 2003. You seem to think that "child enrollment" is the only factor that >should affect costs of education. This is like saying that rent should go down in >proportion to the number of children you have in the house. My parents are paying 4x in >costs of rent, utilities, and medical costs that they were in 1986 when they had 3 >children in the house. Gee, perhaps they should go without medical treatment, housing or >utilities. > > >Things have changed a bit since then, and other costs such as medical, housing, rent, >utilities and quality of life have changed since 1992. > > >"How odd. Instate tuition at UI is $3,000 per year; out of State tuition at > > > > > >UI is $10,000 per year; and MSD's "tuition" in FY01 was $8,772 and is > > > > > >projected to have been $10,112 in FY03. That means that it is cheaper to > > > > > >give someone a B.A. than it is to put them from 9th to 12th grade." > > >This like the twisting of all your other statistics is WRONG! > > >Let's compare the two shall we: > > >Cost of food to a student at UI 120 meals a month: $1200 > > >Tuition and fees: $3144 > > >Books: $650 > > >Required medical insurance: $641 > > >Parking permit $65 > > >Portion paid by the tax payer: $10,000 > > >Number of Hours spend in class: 15 > > >Total Cost: $15,700 for minimum of 15 hours of class for 8 months of classes. Or about >$500 a credit hour (dived by two semesters assuming 15 credits a semester). Estimated >cost of attendance in 2006: Over $20,000 > > >Total Cost of attending to student Public elementary school $0 > > >Total Cost of attending one pupil to Public elementary school to tax payer $8777 > > >Total hours in school 30 hours of class per week for nine months > > >Total cost $146 per credit how hour. That is a 300% less cost then a BA degree. > > >"How is that possible? You've *got* to be kidding! Non-parochial private > > > > > >schools all across the country do it every day. You can get a top of the > > > > > >line education for under $3k/year. And homeschoolers across the country are > > > > > >doing it on a daily basis." > > >Yes, and millions more are doing it for free, it is called public school. > > >Donovan J Arnold > > > > > > > > > > > > > >--------------------------------- >STOP MORE SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months >FREE*_____________________________________________________ List services made available >by First Step Internet, serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994. > http://www.fsr.net >mailto:Vision2020@moscow.comŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ > > >__________________________________ >Do you Yahoo!? >SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! >http://sbc.yahoo.com > >_____________________________________________________ > List services made available by First Step Internet, > serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994. > http://www.fsr.net > mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com >ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ --------------------------------- The new MSN 8: smart spam protection and 2 months FREE* __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! http://sbc.yahoo.com From mushroom@moscow.com Sun Jun 29 22:38:27 2003 From: mushroom@moscow.com (Mushroom) Date: Sun, 29 Jun 2003 14:38:27 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] Gimme my money, George References: <001c01c33e7a$74020ed0$47f2f5c7@gladiator> Message-ID: <3EFF5C53.E9D90598@moscow.com> Deacon James wrote: > > I have no idea what this means. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Joan Opyr" > To: > Sent: Sunday, June 29, 2003 12:47 PM > Subject: [Vision2020] Gimme my money, George > > > Perhaps what we need in this country is more selective taxation. John is > > tired of having his money "freed" from his pocketbook to pay for public > > education when he doesn't even use it. I say, right on. Give John his > > money back, and give me mine, too. Here are some things I'm tired of > paying > > for: DJ: I figured it out in almost no time. But I'm older, so maybe a certain abount of excess maturity is required. Don Coombs From nielsen@uidaho.edu Sun Jun 29 22:43:23 2003 From: nielsen@uidaho.edu (Ralph Nielsen) Date: Sun, 29 Jun 2003 14:43:23 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] Heaven and hell? In-Reply-To: <20030628023600.518.88997.Mailman@whale2.fsr.net> Message-ID: > From: Luke > Date: Fri Jun 27, 2003 5:49:24 PM US/Pacific > To: vision2020 , David Camden-Britton > > Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Religious Diversity Education > > > Mr. Camden-Britton: > >> There are the interesting ideas of Utilitarian ethics, whereby >> activities > which benefit >society as a whole are encouraged, and those that do > not are > discouraged or halted. >For simple situations such as murder or theft, > it > seems pretty clear that society does >not benefit, so one has an > ethical > duty to not engage in these acts. > > Non sequit[u]r. Perhaps society may not be helped, but then, if there > really > is no god at all, why should anyone bother to help society or worry > about > morals ? We'll all be dead in a few decades anyway[s]. > > > Best, > Luke Nieuwsma Mr. Nieuwsma seems to have the idea that moral behavior depends on the existence of a god or gods. Some of the most atrocious human actions have been done in the name of a god. He also seems to imply that it is the threat of postmortem punishment by a god that makes people behave morally. This is flatly contradicted by the Hebrew Bible (Old Testament to Christians). In the Hebrew religion there is no such thing as a separate soul and there is no life after death. In the entire Old Testament not one single person dies and goes to heaven. And no one dies and goes to hell either (except in dishonest translations like the King James Version). I'm afraid Luke Nieuwsma is mistaken to think that most people act morally only by a bribe of heaven or a threat of hell. Ralph Nielsen Moscow From donovanarnold@hotmail.com Sun Jun 29 22:58:30 2003 From: donovanarnold@hotmail.com (Donovan Arnold) Date: Sun, 29 Jun 2003 14:58:30 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] MSD Pay and Tenure--a reply Message-ID:

John.

Sorry, I thought you did have children in the public school system. Based on your assumption that I was involving myself in your FAMILY. Clearly I am not that this just a paranoid assumption that you have about the government and you inability to control your own life on you own. I have no problem doing this like most Americans despite the government. I do not mind paying taxes to support your children if you do choose to send them to school. I will not support your efforts to take my money to go to a private school, however.

I was angry because I was under the impression that you did send your kids to the public school and were whining about being tax dollars to help out.

I don't believe in selective taxation, as you are suggesting should be done. It is a proven fact that taxation raises money in greater amounts and better meets the needs of the diverse population then "giving freely as individuals" as you suggest.

We would have no roads, no military, no schools, no postal service, no internet, no hospitals, no country, if we did as you asked.

You think we won the revolutionary won on voluntary taxation of the people? We didn't, we taxed people and they whined and complained. After we won, boy were they happy at the money they ended up saving.

Nonetheless, I have no sympathy for you if you can afford to send your children to Logos or any other private school. Clearly you have money and are only rambling on make youself feel better. I pity you. The people that complain the most, are usually people that have the most. The people that complain the least, usually have the least.

If you were REALLY concerned about the cost of taxes and were that broke, you couldn't afford to send them to Logos or whatever private school you may send them to.

I also want you to pay off the debt before getting one cent back in taxes. This is a major expense your generation has racked up and I don't think it is fair to leave your debt behind for others.

Also, what disability services does Logos Provide, you never answered that question?

Donovan J Arnold



 

>From: John Harrell
>To: Donovan Arnold , dale@courtneys.us, vision2020@moscow.com
>Subject: Re: [Vision2020] MSD Pay and Tenure--a reply
>Date: Sun, 29 Jun 2003 13:36:41 -0700 (PDT)
>
>Hello Mr. Donovan Arnold,
>
>Hmmmm, I seem to have struck a cord. I certainly did not mean to
>create such a froth.
>
>You said, "HOW DARE YOU, accuse ME, of being in YOUR POCKET BOOK. I
>am not the one with children in the school system. I am paying YOUR
>BUTT to have children in the school system. I am PAYING YOUR parents'
>medical care, and social security. YOU ARE THE ONE IN MY POCKET BOOK."
>
>You seem to be quite upset at being forced to pay for those services
>that someone else is enjoying.
>
>So either, pay happily or do something about it.
>
>I would offer this as a possible way of dealing with this payment issue.
>
>How about we all pay for the services, as you describe above, out of our
>own pocket? You can choose where you want to give and I can choose where
>I want to give - instead of a socialistic wealth distribution scheme. No
>one is forcibly taking your money from you, and then you don't have to
>be so upset.
>
>Choice, I am all for it! Diversity, I am all for it! Diversity of services
>and choice of where we decide to give, no forced payment.
>
>When people "choose" where they will or will not give their money; they do
>it happily, cheerfully - not in a sarcastic, hateful manner, as you seem to
>have shown above.
>
>Cheers!
>John Harrell
>
>--- Donovan Arnold wrote:
>
>---------------------------------
>
>John,
>
>You are the MOST egocentric, self-centered, greedy, unappreciative, selfish man I have
>ever met!
>
>
>
>HOW DARE YOU, accuse ME, of being in YOUR POCKET BOOK. I am not the one with children in
>the school system. I am paying YOUR BUTT to have children in the school system. I am
>PAYING YOUR parents' medical care, and social security. YOU ARE THE ONE IN MY POCKET
>BOOK.
>
>
>
>
>You are more concerned about yourself then you are your OWN CHILDREN AND PARENTS (sic)!
>What happened when your grandparents gave you a check for your birthday, did you punch
>your grandma in stomach and kick your grandpa in the groin?
>
>
>
>
>I am curious why YOU think I, making less then 30% what you do, should have to give you
>money? If you don't like that then why don't you write me a check back?????????????
>
>
>
>
>Then I can give the money back to a family that will not attack me for it and accuse ME
>of costing them more money.
>
>
>
>
>I and thousands of other Moscow residents are subsidizing YOU and your FAMILY. You better
>start being appreciative of that FACT!
>
>
>
>
>You are nothing but a whiner that is cutting off your nose despite your face. You keep
>voting for these politicians that give tax cuts to the rich and wondering why your taxes
>keep going up. HELLO! Vote for someone that gives a tax hike on the rich so the debt goes
>down and you get something for your money instead of spending it all just on the interest
>on the debt. Vote for people that will spend billions on putting people together in this
>country rather then spending trillions blowing people apart in another.
>
>
>
>
>I don't mind giving my money up to educate your children, dispite my poverty status, but
>I will be damned if I get attacked for doing so.
>
>
>
>
>Donovan J Arnold
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> >From: John Harrell
>
>
>
>
>
> >To: Donovan Arnold , dale@courtneys.us, vision2020@moscow.com
>
>
>
>
>
> >Subject: Re: [Vision2020] MSD Pay and Tenure--a reply
>
>
>
>
>
> >Date: Sat, 28 Jun 2003 23:02:47 -0700 (PDT)
>
>
>
>
>
> >
>
>
>
>
>
> >Mr. Donovan Arnold,
>
>
>
>
>
> >
>
>
>
>
>
> >You have to be kidding again. This is so hilarious. You really need to
>
>
>
>
>
> >start thinking.
>
>
>
>
>
> >
>
>
>
>
>
> >"Yes, and millions more are doing it for free, it is called public school."
>
>
>
>
>
> >
>
>
>
>
>
> >For Free!?!? You are joking!
>
>
>
>
>
> >
>
>
>
>
>
> >Why is it all liberals think everything is free if it comes from the government?
>
>
>
>
>
> >Free services for this, free services for that, free free free! Think again. It
>
>
>
>
>
> >is not free. The only thing that is being freed here is my money from my pocket.
>
>
>
>
>
> >
>
>
>
>
>
> >Please Mr. Arnold, STOP FREEING ME FROM MY MONEY!
>
>
>
>
>
> >
>
>
>
>
>
> >I work hard to provide for my family, but how am I supposed to provide for my
>
>
>
>
>
> >family if you keep freeing me from my money? How am I supposed to provide for my
>
>
>
>
>
> >elderly parents if you keep freeing me from my money? How are my elderly parents
>
>
>
>
>
> >supposed to be live if you keep freeing them from their money? More levies, more
>
>
>
>
>
> >bonds, more free services, more free schools, yea, right, stop joking around!
>
>
>
>
>
> >Get outta my pocketbook, get outta my family.
>
>
>
>
>
> >
>
>
>
>
>
> >Liberals - wrong in the past, wrong now, and wrong for the future!
>
>
>
>
>
> >
>
>
>
>
>
> >Cheers!
>
>
>
>
>
> >John Harrell
>
>
>
>
> >From: John Harrell
> >To: Donovan Arnold , dale@courtneys.us, vision2020@moscow.com
> >Subject: Re: [Vision2020] MSD Pay and Tenure--a reply
> >Date: Sat, 28 Jun 2003 23:02:47 -0700 (PDT)
> >
> >Mr. Donovan Arnold,
> >
> >You have to be kidding again. This is so hilarious. You really need to
> >start thinking.
> >
> >"Yes, and millions more are doing it for free, it is called public school."
> >
> >For Free!?!? You are joking!
> >
> >Why is it all liberals think everything is free if it comes from the government?
> >Free services for this, free services for that, free free free! Think again. It
> >is not free. The only thing that is being freed here is my money from my pocket.
> >
> >Please Mr. Arnold, STOP FREEING ME FROM MY MONEY!
> >
> >I work hard to provide for my family, but how am I supposed to provide for my
> >family if you keep freeing me from my money? How am I supposed to provide for my
> >elderly parents if you keep freeing me from my money? How are my elderly parents
> >supposed to be live if you keep freeing them from their money? More levies, more
> >bonds, more free services, more free schools, yea, right, stop joking around!
> >Get outta my pocketbook, get outta my family.
> >
> >Liberals - wrong in the past, wrong now, and wrong for the future!
> >
> >Cheers!
> >John Harrell
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >--- Donovan Arnold wrote:
> >
> >---------------------------------
> >
> >Dale,
> >
> >I am glad you broke up your responses into many emails. Otherwise I don't think I could
> >handle so many misconceptions and twists of the truth in one email.
> >
> >
> > >"*If* the cost driver of education were the children, then it's senseless
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > >that inflation-adjusted spending has *increased* by over 100% in that same
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > >time."
> >
> >
> >This is where another one of assumptions is WRONG! It is not children that causes the
> >cost of of school to rise. It is the cost of things related to the children. You cannot
> >compare 1992 to 2003. You seem to think that "child enrollment" is the only factor that
> >should affect costs of education. This is like saying that rent should go down in
> >proportion to the number of children you have in the house. My parents are paying 4x in
> >costs of rent, utilities, and medical costs that they were in 1986 when they had 3
> >children in the house. Gee, perhaps they should go without medical treatment, housing or
>
> >utilities.
> >
> >
> >Things have changed a bit since then, and other costs such as medical, housing, rent,
> >utilities and quality of life have changed since 1992.
> >
> >
> >"How odd. Instate tuition at UI is $3,000 per year; out of State tuition at
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > >UI is $10,000 per year; and MSD's "tuition" in FY01 was $8,772 and is
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > >projected to have been $10,112 in FY03. That means that it is cheaper to
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > >give someone a B.A. than it is to put them from 9th to 12th grade."
> >
> >
> >This like the twisting of all your other statistics is WRONG!
> >
> >
> >Let's compare the two shall we:
> >
> >
> >Cost of food to a student at UI 120 meals a month: $1200
> >
> >
> >Tuition and fees: $3144
> >
> >
> >Books: $650
> >
> >
> >Required medical insurance: $641
> >
> >
> >Parking permit $65
> >
> >
> >Portion paid by the tax payer: $10,000
> >
> >
> >Number of Hours spend in class: 15
> >
> >
> >Total Cost: $15,700 for minimum of 15 hours of class for 8 months of classes. Or about
> >$500 a credit hour (dived by two semesters assuming 15 credits a semester). Estimated
> >cost of attendance in 2006: Over $20,000
> >
> >
> >Total Cost of attending to student Public elementary school $0
> >
> >
> >Total Cost of attending one pupil to Public elementary school to tax payer $8777
> >
> >
> >Total hours in school 30 hours of class per week for nine months
> >
> >
> >Total cost $146 per credit how hour. That is a 300% less cost then a BA degree.
> >
> >
> >"How is that possible? You've *got* to be kidding! Non-parochial private
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > >schools all across the country do it every day. You can get a top of the
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > >line education for under $3k/year. And homeschoolers across the country are
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > >doing it on a daily basis."
> >
> >
> >Yes, and millions more are doing it for free, it is called public school.
> >
> >
> >Donovan J Arnold
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >---------------------------------
> >STOP MORE SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months
> >FREE*_____________________________________________________ List services made available
> >by First Step Internet, serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
> > http://www.fsr.net
> >mailto:Vision2020@moscow.comŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ
> >
> >
> >__________________________________
> >Do you Yahoo!?
> >SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month!
> >http://sbc.yahoo.com
> >
> >_____________________________________________________
> > List services made available by First Step Internet,
> > serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
> > http://www.fsr.net
> > mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com
> >ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ
>
>
>
>---------------------------------
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>__________________________________
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>
>_____________________________________________________
> List services made available by First Step Internet,
> serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
> http://www.fsr.net
> mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com
>ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ

STOP MORE SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* From donovanarnold@hotmail.com Sun Jun 29 23:09:52 2003 From: donovanarnold@hotmail.com (Donovan Arnold) Date: Sun, 29 Jun 2003 15:09:52 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] Heaven and hell? Message-ID:

Ralph,

I have already been ten rounds with Luke about what you said about "Some of the most atrocious human actions have been done in the name of a god." He doesn't believe it and will argue tell he is blue in the face. : )

Luke is a little confused and young. However, he is good kid. I like him. But he doesn't understand "reality" from "fiction" when it comes to the real world.

So before you head down that road, just know you will never convince him of anything unless it is in the Bible, and even then, it is based on his interpretation of the bible, because the bible is infallible because God wrote it, and wrote it so Luke could in no possible way misunderstand it or its meanings. : )

Take Care,

Donovan J Arnold 

>From: Ralph Nielsen
>To: vision2020@moscow.com
>Subject: [Vision2020] Heaven and hell?
>Date: Sun, 29 Jun 2003 14:43:23 -0700
>
>>From: Luke
>>Date: Fri Jun 27, 2003 5:49:24 PM US/Pacific
>>To: vision2020 , David Camden-Britton
>>
>>Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Religious Diversity Education
>>
>>
>>Mr. Camden-Britton:
>>
>>>There are the interesting ideas of Utilitarian ethics, whereby
>>>activities
>>which benefit >society as a whole are encouraged, and those that do
>>not are
>>discouraged or halted. >For simple situations such as murder or
>>theft, it
>>seems pretty clear that society does >not benefit, so one has an
>>ethical
>>duty to not engage in these acts.
>>
>>Non sequit[u]r. Perhaps society may not be helped, but then, if
>>there really
>>is no god at all, why should anyone bother to help society or worry
>>about
>>morals ? We'll all be dead in a few decades anyway[s].
>>
>>
>
>>Best,
>>Luke Nieuwsma
>
>Mr. Nieuwsma seems to have the idea that moral behavior depends on
>the existence of a god or gods. Some of the most atrocious human
>actions have been done in the name of a god. He also seems to imply
>that it is the threat of postmortem punishment by a god that makes
>people behave morally. This is flatly contradicted by the Hebrew
>Bible (Old Testament to Christians).
>
>In the Hebrew religion there is no such thing as a separate soul and
>there is no life after death. In the entire Old Testament not one
>single person dies and goes to heaven. And no one dies and goes to
>hell either (except in dishonest translations like the King James
>Version).
>
>I'm afraid Luke Nieuwsma is mistaken to think that most people act
>morally only by a bribe of heaven or a threat of hell.
>
>Ralph Nielsen
>Moscow
>
>
>_____________________________________________________
>List services made available by First Step Internet, serving the
>communities of the Palouse since 1994.
>http://www.fsr.net
>mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com
>ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ

Add photos to your messages with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. From ted_moffett@hotmail.com Sun Jun 29 23:58:32 2003 From: ted_moffett@hotmail.com (Ted Moffett) Date: Sun, 29 Jun 2003 22:58:32 +0000 Subject: [Vision2020] Meeting Educational Needs Message-ID: Rose et. al. The fact that private schools do not provide services for the handicapped sometimes, and also exclude other children for a variety of reasons, thus making public schools necessary if we assume that all children regardless of background should have a chance at becoming educated, that has been gone over repeatedly on V2020. I don't think Rose H. or John H. are going to modify each others positions. Nor will some of the individuals I have exchanges with on V2020 alter their thinking one iota due to my pleas. Some on V2020 complain of the repeated debates that seem to go nowhere. The question therefore is, is anybody else being encouraged to think about these issues when exposed to these polarized exchanges? This is one reason to justify debates between people whose entrenched thinking is well known: to facilitate public discussion of important issues to an audience that has some interest. Which leads me to what should be, I'm naive and idealistic enough to believe, one of the main goals of providing public education to all children: the argument that one of the cornerstones of a democratic society is a literate well informed public capable of critical logical thought which will facilitate the participation of the public in the electoral process so that our leaders truly represent the people and do not deceive us, or seize dictatorial control. This is a critical justification to pony up taxes to pay for a public educational system: it is essential to the healthy functioning of a democracy. In saying this I am not claiming that the current public school system achieves the goal just outlined. Current behavior in the electorate appears to bolster this opinion. Of course, when we have millions in the USA who wish to control their children to prevent too much of that critical logical thinking from corrupting their children's minds with blasphemous thoughts, well, no wonder the public schools come under fire from certain groups. If MSD had the highest test scores in the nation, and spent less per pupil than any private school, some local critics of MSD would be even more horrified by success than they are by the alleged failures. After all, they have religious grounds to hate what MSD teaches, and successes by MSD would just render the agenda of bringing down the public schools more difficult, while successfully educating students in habits of thought regarded as heretical. Ted >From: DonaldH675@aol.com >To: vision2020@moscow.com >Subject: [Vision2020] Meeting Educational Needs >Date: Sun, 29 Jun 2003 13:14:24 EDT > >Dear Visionaries, >The recent discussions between John Harrell and Donovan Arnold have raised >some interesting questions about public vs. private education. I am >hopeful >that John (et al) can add some factual information to the debate. We know >that >public schools accept all children regardless of physical, emotional, or >mental >challenges. John, can you share with us, in general demographic terms, how >Logos addresses the special educational needs of these children? How many >kids >needing special ed services are in Logos? In the event that severely >handicapped or even moderately handicapped children are not admitted, what >solution >is offered to the parents of these kids? Would it be no school, home >school, >or government school? >I am surprised, John, that you would introduce the rhetoric of Hitler in an >attempt to prove your argument against liberals and public schools. We >have >talked before on this list about Hitler's expressed career guidance for >women, >that is, "children, church, and kitchen." The uncanny similarity to the >life >goals for the women of Christ Church should be disturbing to you - if you >see >Hitler and his fascist philosophy as problematic. I think it is fair to >say >that book burnings, rabid racism, hateful homophobia - the Rev. Fred Phelps >for >example, anti-Semitism and demands for lockstep political thinking are >accurately associated with the Christian right - and by historical >extension, the >3rd Reich. Come to think of it, handicapped people were also excluded >from >social interaction and education in those splendid days of German Aryan >magic. >John, I know that you are not a Nazi - and I know that the majority of >Christ >Church members aren't either. I also know that Donovan and his family have >a >strong and admirable history of commitment to meeting the social and >educational needs of disabled people. And yes, you pay a considerable >amount of money >to educate your children in a way that is philosophically and religiously >meaningful to you in addition to supporting a public educational system >that does >not serve your needs. Here's the difference, no matter how much money I >was >willing to pay to educate my grandchildren at Logos School, because of my >religious, social, and political beliefs they would not be admitted. On >the other >hand, your children would be welcomed into public schools without >qualifying >questions. Private schools, by their nature, are deliberately developed on >the idea of exclusion. Thankfully, our founding fathers and mothers, had a >larger vision for American children, and I have to say, it gives me special >pleasure that private school folks get to pay for it too. >Best, >Rose Huskey > _________________________________________________________________ Tired of spam? Get advanced junk mail protection with MSN 8. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From bentwigg@yahoo.com Mon Jun 30 00:12:43 2003 From: bentwigg@yahoo.com (Ben Twigg) Date: Sun, 29 Jun 2003 16:12:43 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Vision2020] the case for civility Message-ID: <20030629231243.70442.qmail@web11002.mail.yahoo.com> Mr. Rounds makes an excellent point in asking "what ever happened to...the suggestion that we take time to cool off between posts?" How refreshing it would be if every message posted to Vision 2020 attacked the issues, not the individuals. But I suppose some would argue that, in at least some cases, the individuals are the issues... Ben Twigg __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! http://sbc.yahoo.com From johnbharrell@yahoo.com Mon Jun 30 00:12:54 2003 From: johnbharrell@yahoo.com (John Harrell) Date: Sun, 29 Jun 2003 16:12:54 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Vision2020] MSD Pay and Tenure--a reply In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030629231254.12175.qmail@web13401.mail.yahoo.com> Mr. Donovan Arnold, Addressing the issue of Logos, I don't know what goes on at Logos. You will have to ask them. My point is that I agreed with you that we could and should have many different schools performing many different services. And let the best schools attract the best teachers for the type of service it may be trying to achieve - "school choice" and "school diversity." Choice, I am all for it! Diversity, I am all for it! "School Choice" "School Diversity" I also have never even brought up the issue of vouchers. Some people on this board immediately jump to the issue of vouchers thinking that that is what is being proposed as an alternative. I disagree with vouchers. It still involves government and it still involves theft in the form of taxation. Also, in response to the way you described democracy as functioning, theft is theft, regardless of whether one person steals from you in an alley, one hundred people steal from you in a park, or whether one hundred people get together to vote to steal from you. It is still theft. Taxation as described may raise greater money but it is done through coercion and force and again is basically theft. Taxation as described and in the name of democracy is covering up the issue of theft. We need to remember the difference between democracy and republic, and the supposed right of the people to vote themselves "free services" from the "public coffers." Davy Crocket ran into this issue regarding taxation in the name democracy and the "common good", there is actually a movie out called "Not Yours To Give" which describes this real situation. [I did a Google search and found this link: http://www.house.gov/paul/nytg.htm ] Another way of thinking about this is as follows: You and I are walking down the street and we see disabled person begging for money. You turn to me and say we should give some money to the person, and I say if you feel inclined to do so, then go ahead, as I have given money to someone else. Then you reach into my pocket and take out a dollar and give it them. I am not sure what you mean by "selective taxation." I don't think I am proposing this at all, but I am not sure what you mean, so I can't properly address it. Cheers! John Harrell --- Donovan Arnold wrote: --------------------------------- John. Sorry, I thought you did have children in the public school system. Based on your assumption that I was involving myself in your FAMILY. Clearly I am not that this just a paranoid assumption that you have about the government and you inability to control your own life on you own. I have no problem doing this like most Americans despite the government. I do not mind paying taxes to support your children if you do choose to send them to school. I will not support your efforts to take my money to go to a private school, however. I was angry because I was under the impression that you did send your kids to the public school and were whining about being tax dollars to help out. I don't believe in selective taxation, as you are suggesting should be done. It is a proven fact that taxation raises money in greater amounts and better meets the needs of the diverse population then "giving freely as individuals" as you suggest. We would have no roads, no military, no schools, no postal service, no internet, no hospitals, no country, if we did as you asked. You think we won the revolutionary won on voluntary taxation of the people? We didn't, we taxed people and they whined and complained. After we won, boy were they happy at the money they ended up saving. Nonetheless, I have no sympathy for you if you can afford to send your children to Logos or any other private school. Clearly you have money and are only rambling on make youself feel better. I pity you. The people that complain the most, are usually people that have the most. The people that complain the least, usually have the least. If you were REALLY concerned about the cost of taxes and were that broke, you couldn't afford to send them to Logos or whatever private school you may send them to. I also want you to pay off the debt before getting one cent back in taxes. This is a major expense your generation has racked up and I don't think it is fair to leave your debt behind for others. Also, what disability services does Logos Provide, you never answered that question? Donovan J Arnold >From: John Harrell >To: Donovan Arnold , dale@courtneys.us, vision2020@moscow.com >Subject: Re: [Vision2020] MSD Pay and Tenure--a reply >Date: Sun, 29 Jun 2003 13:36:41 -0700 (PDT) > >Hello Mr. Donovan Arnold, > >Hmmmm, I seem to have struck a cord. I certainly did not mean to >create such a froth. > >You said, "HOW DARE YOU, accuse ME, of being in YOUR POCKET BOOK. I >am not the one with children in the school system. I am paying YOUR >BUTT to have children in the school system. I am PAYING YOUR parents' >medical care, and social security. YOU ARE THE ONE IN MY POCKET BOOK." > >You seem to be quite upset at being forced to pay for those services >that someone else is enjoying. > >So either, pay happily or do something about it. > >I would offer this as a possible way of dealing with this payment issue. > >How about we all pay for the services, as you describe above, out of our >own pocket? You can choose where you want to give and I can choose where >I want to give - instead of a socialistic wealth distribution scheme. No >one is forcibly taking your money from you, and then you don't have to >be so upset. > >Choice, I am all for it! Diversity, I am all for it! Diversity of services >and choice of where we decide to give, no forced payment. > >When people "choose" where they will or will not give their money; they do >it happily, cheerfully - not in a sarcastic, hateful manner, as you seem to >have shown above. > >Cheers! >John Harrell > >--- Donovan Arnold wrote: > >--------------------------------- > >John, > >You are the MOST egocentric, self-centered, greedy, unappreciative, selfish man I have >ever met! > > > >HOW DARE YOU, accuse ME, of being in YOUR POCKET BOOK. I am not the one with children in >the school system. I am paying YOUR BUTT to have children in the school system. I am >PAYING YOUR parents' medical care, and social security. YOU ARE THE ONE IN MY POCKET >BOOK. > > > > >You are more concerned about yourself then you are your OWN CHILDREN AND PARENTS (sic)! >What happened when your grandparents gave you a check for your birthday, did you punch >your grandma in stomach and kick your grandpa in the groin? > > > > >I am curious why YOU think I, making less then 30% what you do, should have to give you >money? If you don't like that then why don't you write me a check back????????????? > > > > >Then I can give the money back to a family that will not attack me for it and accuse ME >of costing them more money. > > > > >I and thousands of other Moscow residents are subsidizing YOU and your FAMILY. You better >start being appreciative of that FACT! > > > > >You are nothing but a whiner that is cutting off your nose despite your face. You keep >voting for these politicians that give tax cuts to the rich and wondering why your taxes >keep going up. HELLO! Vote for someone that gives a tax hike on the rich so the debt goes >down and you get something for your money instead of spending it all just on the interest >on the debt. Vote for people that will spend billions on putting people together in this >country rather then spending trillions blowing people apart in another. > > > > >I don't mind giving my money up to educate your children, dispite my poverty status, but >I will be damned if I get attacked for doing so. > > > > >Donovan J Arnold > > > > > > > > > > >From: John Harrell > > > > > > >To: Donovan Arnold , dale@courtneys.us, vision2020@moscow.com > > > > > > >Subject: Re: [Vision2020] MSD Pay and Tenure--a reply > > > > > > >Date: Sat, 28 Jun 2003 23:02:47 -0700 (PDT) > > > > > > > > > > > > > >Mr. Donovan Arnold, > > > > > > > > > > > > > >You have to be kidding again. This is so hilarious. You really need to > > > > > > >start thinking. > > > > > > > > > > > > > >"Yes, and millions more are doing it for free, it is called public school." > > > > > > > > > > > > > >For Free!?!? You are joking! > > > > > > > > > > > > > >Why is it all liberals think everything is free if it comes from the government? > > > > > > >Free services for this, free services for that, free free free! Think again. It > > > > > > >is not free. The only thing that is being freed here is my money from my pocket. > > > > > > > > > > > > > >Please Mr. Arnold, STOP FREEING ME FROM MY MONEY! > > > > > > > > > > > > > >I work hard to provide for my family, but how am I supposed to provide for my > > > > > > >family if you keep freeing me from my money? How am I supposed to provide for my > > > > > > >elderly parents if you keep freeing me from my money? How are my elderly parents > > > > > > >supposed to be live if you keep freeing them from their money? More levies, more > > > > > > >bonds, more free services, more free schools, yea, right, stop joking around! > > > > > > >Get outta my pocketbook, get outta my family. > > > > > > > > > > > > > >Liberals - wrong in the past, wrong now, and wrong for the future! > > > > > > > > > > > > > >Cheers! > > > > > > >John Harrell > > > > > >From: John Harrell > >To: Donovan Arnold , dale@courtneys.us, vision2020@moscow.com > >Subject: Re: [Vision2020] MSD Pay and Tenure--a reply > >Date: Sat, 28 Jun 2003 23:02:47 -0700 (PDT) > > > >Mr. Donovan Arnold, > > > >You have to be kidding again. This is so hilarious. You really need to > >start thinking. > > > >"Yes, and millions more are doing it for free, it is called public school." > > > >For Free!?!? You are joking! > > > >Why is it all liberals think everything is free if it comes from the government? > >Free services for this, free services for that, free free free! Think again. It > >is not free. The only thing that is being freed here is my money from my pocket. > > > >Please Mr. Arnold, STOP FREEING ME FROM MY MONEY! > > > >I work hard to provide for my family, but how am I supposed to provide for my > >family if you keep freeing me from my money? How am I supposed to provide for my > >elderly parents if you keep freeing me from my money? How are my elderly parents > >supposed to be live if you keep freeing them from their money? More levies, more > >bonds, more free services, more free schools, yea, right, stop joking around! > >Get outta my pocketbook, get outta my family. > > > >Liberals - wrong in the past, wrong now, and wrong for the future! > > > >Cheers! > >John Harrell > > > > > > > > > >--- Donovan Arnold wrote: > > > >--------------------------------- > > > >Dale, > > > >I am glad you broke up your responses into many emails. Otherwise I don't think I could > >handle so many misconceptions and twists of the truth in one email. > > > > > > >"*If* the cost driver of education were the children, then it's senseless > > > > > > > > > > >that inflation-adjusted spending has *increased* by over 100% in that same > > > > > > > > > > >time." > > > > > >This is where another one of assumptions is WRONG! It is not children that causes the > >cost of of school to rise. It is the cost of things related to the children. You cannot > >compare 1992 to 2003. You seem to think that "child enrollment" is the only factor that > >should affect costs of education. This is like saying that rent should go down in > >proportion to the number of children you have in the house. My parents are paying 4x in > >costs of rent, utilities, and medical costs that they were in 1986 when they had 3 > >children in the house. Gee, perhaps they should go without medical treatment, housing or > > >utilities. > > > > > >Things have changed a bit since then, and other costs such as medical, housing, rent, > >utilities and quality of life have changed since 1992. > > > > > >"How odd. Instate tuition at UI is $3,000 per year; out of State tuition at > > > > > > > > > > >UI is $10,000 per year; and MSD's "tuition" in FY01 was $8,772 and is > > > > > > > > > > >projected to have been $10,112 in FY03. That means that it is cheaper to > > > > > > > > > > >give someone a B.A. than it is to put them from 9th to 12th grade." > > > > > >This like the twisting of all your other statistics is WRONG! > > > > > >Let's compare the two shall we: > > > > > >Cost of food to a student at UI 120 meals a month: $1200 > > > > > >Tuition and fees: $3144 > > > > > >Books: $650 > > > > > >Required medical insurance: $641 > > > > > >Parking permit $65 > > > > > >Portion paid by the tax payer: $10,000 > > > > > >Number of Hours spend in class: 15 > > > > > >Total Cost: $15,700 for minimum of 15 hours of class for 8 months of classes. Or about > >$500 a credit hour (dived by two semesters assuming 15 credits a semester). Estimated > >cost of attendance in 2006: Over $20,000 > > > > > >Total Cost of attending to student Public elementary school $0 > > > > > >Total Cost of attending one pupil to Public elementary school to tax payer $8777 > > > > > >Total hours in school 30 hours of class per week for nine months > > > > > >Total cost $146 per credit how hour. That is a 300% less cost then a BA degree. > > > > > >"How is that possible? You've *got* to be kidding! Non-parochial private > > > > > > > > > > >schools all across the country do it every day. You can get a top of the > > > > > > > > > > >line education for under $3k/year. And homeschoolers across the country are > > > > > > > > > > >doing it on a daily basis." > > > > > >Yes, and millions more are doing it for free, it is called public school. > > > > > >Donovan J Arnold > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >--------------------------------- > >STOP MORE SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months > >FREE*_____________________________________________________ List services made available > >by First Step Internet, serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994. > > http://www.fsr.net > >mailto:Vision2020@moscow.comŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ > > > > > >__________________________________ > >Do you Yahoo!? > >SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! > >http://sbc.yahoo.com > > > >_____________________________________________________ > > List services made available by First Step Internet, > > serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994. > > http://www.fsr.net > > mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com > >ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ > > > >--------------------------------- >The new MSN 8: smart spam protection and 2 months FREE* > > >__________________________________ >Do you Yahoo!? >SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! >http://sbc.yahoo.com > >_____________________________________________________ > List services made available by First Step Internet, > serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994. > http://www.fsr.net > mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com >ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ --------------------------------- STOP MORE SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE*_____________________________________________________ List services made available by First Step Internet, serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994. http://www.fsr.net mailto:Vision2020@moscow.comŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! http://sbc.yahoo.com From donovanarnold@hotmail.com Mon Jun 30 00:17:31 2003 From: donovanarnold@hotmail.com (Donovan Arnold) Date: Sun, 29 Jun 2003 16:17:31 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] Religious Diversity Education Message-ID:

Tom,

Dale was just trying to prove his point about the public educational system not working when he said "Guess we should change the motto on our money: E Pluribus Unum". He was implying that it meant "In God We Trust" and not knowing that it meant .

 He would also know that in 1863, US Treasury Secretary Chase approved the present motto, "In God We Trust" on the coin to show that The Union was "on the side of God" against slavery. It was not until the early 1900's that religious protestants pushed to have them placed back on the coins. Theodore Roosevelt, President at the time, was opposed to idea because he believed it was blasphemous to put God's name on something that was a worldly good. "Out of many, one", is the meaning of the Latin words "E Pluribus Unum". It was created as part of the official Seal of the United States. It was created by John Adam and Thomas Jefferson in 1776. The words "Out of many, one" symbolizes how the 13 colonies came together as one.

It was not until 1956, in order to show the communists whose' side God was on, that President Eisenhower signed into law the official motto of the United States being "In God We Trust" instead of "E Pluribus Unum".

So naturally, Dale being the way he is, believed that if "E Pluribus Unum" was the National Motto at one time, and "In God We Trust" being the National Motto later on, he assumed one meant the other.

This is precisely, why so many Americans are against the idea of funding Home School. Clearly, if Dale was home schooling his children he would be teaching them wrong information on such simple and basic information as I learned in 7th grade.

It also proves that Dale has been corrupted by the Religious Right in believing that the forefathers used God in the Constitution and were for the idea of God being the central theme of all America.

What is even more frightening is that Dale is an educator.

Donovan J Arnold  


Tired of spam? Get advanced junk mail protection with MSN 8. From dkaag@turbonet.com Mon Jun 30 01:42:48 2003 From: dkaag@turbonet.com (Don Kaag) Date: Sun, 29 Jun 2003 17:42:48 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] Heaven and hell? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: --Apple-Mail-2--830326785 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Ralph: Now I am beginning to be impressed with Luke. Imagine someone his age=20= in this modern day being able to read Aramaic! And handwritten Greek,=20= too. I wonder what God's handwriting looks like. I bet it is a beautiful=20 copperplate script... It will be amusing to watch as he tries to reconcile the=20 inconsistencies in the gospels. Heh, heh, Don Kaag On Sunday, June 29, 2003, at 03:09 PM, Donovan Arnold wrote: > Ralph, > > I have already been ten rounds with Luke about what you said about=20 > "Some of the most atrocious human actions have been done in the name=20= > of a god."=A0He doesn't believe it and will argue tell he is=A0blue in = the=20 > face. : ) > > Luke is a little confused and young. However, he is good kid. I like=20= > him. But he doesn't understand "reality" from "fiction" when it comes=20= > to the real world. > > > So=A0before you head down that road, just know you will never convince=20= > him of anything unless it is in the=A0Bible, and even then, it is = based=20 > on his interpretation of the bible, because the bible is=20 > infallible=A0because God wrote it, and wrote it=A0so Luke could in no=20= > possible way misunderstand it or its meanings. : ) > > > Take Care, > > > Donovan J Arnold=A0 --Apple-Mail-2--830326785 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/enriched; charset=ISO-8859-1 Ralph: Now I am beginning to be impressed with Luke. Imagine someone his age in this modern day being able to read Aramaic! And handwritten Greek, too. I wonder what God's handwriting looks like. I bet it is a beautiful copperplate script... It will be amusing to watch as he tries to reconcile the inconsistencies in the gospels. Heh, heh, Don Kaag On Sunday, June 29, 2003, at 03:09 PM, Donovan Arnold wrote: Ralph, I have already been ten rounds with Luke about what you said about "Some of the most atrocious human actions have been done in the name of a god."=A0He doesn't believe it and will argue tell he is=A0blue in = the face. : ) Luke is a little confused and young. However, he is good kid. I like him. But he doesn't understand "reality" from "fiction" when it comes to the real world. So=A0before you head down that road, just know you will never convince him of anything unless it is in the=A0Bible, and even then, it is based on his interpretation of the bible, because the bible is infallible=A0because God wrote it, and wrote it=A0so Luke could in no possible way misunderstand it or its meanings. : ) Take Care, Donovan J Arnold=A0 = --Apple-Mail-2--830326785-- From donovanarnold@hotmail.com Mon Jun 30 02:11:46 2003 From: donovanarnold@hotmail.com (Donovan Arnold) Date: Sun, 29 Jun 2003 18:11:46 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] MSD Pay and Tenure--a reply Message-ID:

John,

I think we starting to make some progress here.

We agree that vouchers are not a good idea. That is good.

We also agree that diversity and improving education for children should be a goal. That is good.

We also agree that fingering out one particular person and taking money from them is wrong. Done in a group, or on an individual basis. That is good.

However, I guess where we really disagree is the basic function and rights of government over that of the rights of individual.

Lets take your argument about:

"You and I are walking down the street and we see disabled person begging for money. You turn to me and say we should give some money to the person, and I say if you feel inclined to do so, then go ahead, as I have given money to someone else. Then you reach into my pocket and take out a dollar and give it them."

First, you are assuming that I would think that handing them money would solve their problem. I don't. I think the community working together to provide them jobs, the ability to live independently, and educational and vocational training should be given. Not saying I am against that person being given a little money. However, I have never done this, if anything, I will ask what they are going to spend the money on. If they say food, I buy them a sandwich. I lived in Washington DC and learned very quickly many will use your money to buy smokes, drugs, or alcohol. That is not helping nearly as well as giving them a job.

Second, I would not ask you as an individual for money. I don't know your financial situation or the person on the street asking for monies situation either. I can guess, but it would probably be off.

Third, Let us review the situation based on your idea of being able to decide what taxes you choose to spend.

A Native  American sees you on the lawn in front of your house. He pulls a gun and shoots you. Takes your house and wife as his property. Why should we do something about it. Your on his land. You aren't paying taxes to the police, even if you were, who cares, you aren't anymore, your dead. Should I fund your justice with my hard earned dollars.

A more realistic scenario: Your house catches on fire. The fire department shows, realizes you are late on your payments and decides not to put out the fire. So what if your aren't late and choose to pay taxes for the fire department. Big deal, your house is still cindered, and the insurance companies decided they didn't want to pay you. What are you going to do about, you didn't pay your taxes on the Court System, jails, prisons, and the lawyers and legislatures that made those laws.  If you did, then great, you are now doing what is currently the reason we have taxation system.

Another scenario: You are visiting your friend who lives in another neighborhood. You drive through his neighborhood and park your car on the street. You get out visit your friend and when you get back you notice your car is gone. Instead you see an angry mop awaits you. Why, because you are using their road. A road which they paid taxes for and you didn't. So they took your car to pay for it.

If you did pay taxes for all the roads, then great, you are supporting the taxation system.

You see John, all these things were hashed out by bright intelligent people before we came along. They did not just set these things out to "steal" money from you. If you did not pay your taxes you are in fact stealing from everyone else. You use the roads, fire department, police, courts, schools, parks, libraries, jails, sewer, water, hospitals, and military either directly or indirectly everyday. You are profiting from them. Just as you are in fact profiting from the public educational system. To take the hard labor of others and not pay for it is you stealing from those that do.

You may not have the intelligence to realize how paying for a public school system, or any service benefits you, but it does in many ways and allows you to have a job, a home, and the freedoms you enjoy.

You can't live in this country without benifieting from the public goods and services they provide each other and thus you are benifieting from the fruits and labors of others, and not paying for it IS STEALING from them. The only way not to do so is to leave the country. And you are welcome to do so, nobody will stop you.

John, if you truly, truly, believe that taxing you is a "MOB STEALING" from you then why not refuse to pay your taxes. Do not try to say that you would go to jail either. Because it would be a jury that convicts you, not the "government".  You can explain to them your theory that it is the government stealing from you and that you should not have to be "forced to pay" the government.  If you do pay your taxes, then you are admitting that you are not standing on firm ground in your arguments and that you are indeed a hypocrite.

Thanks!

Donovan J Arnold  



 

>From: John Harrell
>To: Donovan Arnold , dale@courtneys.us, vision2020@moscow.com
>Subject: Re: [Vision2020] MSD Pay and Tenure--a reply
>Date: Sun, 29 Jun 2003 16:12:54 -0700 (PDT)
>
>Mr. Donovan Arnold,
>
>Addressing the issue of Logos, I don't know what goes on at Logos.
>You will have to ask them. My point is that I agreed with you that
>we could and should have many different schools performing many
>different services. And let the best schools attract the best teachers
>for the type of service it may be trying to achieve - "school choice"
>and "school diversity."
>
>Choice, I am all for it! Diversity, I am all for it!
>"School Choice" "School Diversity"
>
>I also have never even brought up the issue of vouchers. Some people
>on this board immediately jump to the issue of vouchers thinking that
>that is what is being proposed as an alternative. I disagree with
>vouchers. It still involves government and it still involves theft in
>the form of taxation.
>
>Also, in response to the way you described democracy as functioning,
>theft is theft, regardless of whether one person steals from you
>in an alley, one hundred people steal from you in a park, or whether
>one hundred people get together to vote to steal from you. It is still
>theft. Taxation as described may raise greater money but it is done
>through coercion and force and again is basically theft. Taxation as
>described and in the name of democracy is covering up the issue of theft.
>We need to remember the difference between democracy and republic, and
>the supposed right of the people to vote themselves "free services" from
>the "public coffers."
>
>Davy Crocket ran into this issue regarding taxation in the name
>democracy and the "common good", there is actually a movie out called
>"Not Yours To Give" which describes this real situation. [I did a Google
>search and found this link: http://www.house.gov/paul/nytg.htm ]
>
>Another way of thinking about this is as follows: You and I are walking
>down the street and we see disabled person begging for money. You turn
>to me and say we should give some money to the person, and I say if you
>feel inclined to do so, then go ahead, as I have given money to someone
>else. Then you reach into my pocket and take out a dollar and give it
>them.
>
>I am not sure what you mean by "selective taxation." I don't think I
>am proposing this at all, but I am not sure what you mean, so I can't
>properly address it.
>
>Cheers!
>John Harrell
>
>
>--- Donovan Arnold wrote:
>
>---------------------------------
>
>John.
>
>Sorry, I thought you did have children in the public school system. Based on your
>assumption that I was involving myself in your FAMILY. Clearly I am not that this just a
>paranoid assumption that you have about the government and you inability to control your
>own life on you own. I have no problem doing this like most Americans despite the
>government. I do not mind paying taxes to support your children if you do choose to send
>them to school. I will not support your efforts to take my money to go to a private
>school, however.
>
>
>I was angry because I was under the impression that you did send your kids to the public
>school and were whining about being tax dollars to help out.
>
>
>I don't believe in selective taxation, as you are suggesting should be done. It is a
>proven fact that taxation raises money in greater amounts and better meets the needs of
>the diverse population then "giving freely as individuals" as you suggest.
>
>
>We would have no roads, no military, no schools, no postal service, no internet, no
>hospitals, no country, if we did as you asked.
>
>
>You think we won the revolutionary won on voluntary taxation of the people? We didn't, we
>taxed people and they whined and complained. After we won, boy were they happy at the
>money they ended up saving.
>
>
>Nonetheless, I have no sympathy for you if you can afford to send your children to Logos
>or any other private school. Clearly you have money and are only rambling on make youself
>feel better. I pity you. The people that complain the most, are usually people that have
>the most. The people that complain the least, usually have the least.
>
>
>If you were REALLY concerned about the cost of taxes and were that broke, you couldn't
>afford to send them to Logos or whatever private school you may send them to.
>
>I also want you to pay off the debt before getting one cent back in taxes. This is a
>major expense your generation has racked up and I don't think it is fair to leave your
>debt behind for others.
>
>
>Also, what disability services does Logos Provide, you never answered that question?
>
>
>Donovan J Arnold
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> >From: John Harrell
>
> >To: Donovan Arnold , dale@courtneys.us, vision2020@moscow.com
>
> >Subject: Re: [Vision2020] MSD Pay and Tenure--a reply
>
> >Date: Sun, 29 Jun 2003 13:36:41 -0700 (PDT)
>
> >
>
> >Hello Mr. Donovan Arnold,
>
> >
>
> >Hmmmm, I seem to have struck a cord. I certainly did not mean to
>
> >create such a froth.
>
> >
>
> >You said, "HOW DARE YOU, accuse ME, of being in YOUR POCKET BOOK. I
>
> >am not the one with children in the school system. I am paying YOUR
>
> >BUTT to have children in the school system. I am PAYING YOUR parents'
>
> >medical care, and social security. YOU ARE THE ONE IN MY POCKET BOOK."
>
> >
>
> >You seem to be quite upset at being forced to pay for those services
>
> >that someone else is enjoying.
>
> >
>
> >So either, pay happily or do something about it.
>
> >
>
> >I would offer this as a possible way of dealing with this payment issue.
>
> >
>
> >How about we all pay for the services, as you describe above, out of our
>
> >own pocket? You can choose where you want to give and I can choose where
>
> >I want to give - instead of a socialistic wealth distribution scheme. No
>
> >one is forcibly taking your money from you, and then you don't have to
>
> >be so upset.
>
> >
>
> >Choice, I am all for it! Diversity, I am all for it! Diversity of services
>
> >and choice of where we decide to give, no forced payment.
>
> >
>
> >When people "choose" where they will or will not give their money; they do
>
> >it happily, cheerfully - not in a sarcastic, hateful manner, as you seem to
>
> >have shown above.
>
> >
>
> >Cheers!
>
> >John Harrell
>
> >
>
> >--- Donovan Arnold wrote:
>
> >
>
> >---------------------------------
>
> >
>
> >John,
>
> >
>
> >You are the MOST egocentric, self-centered, greedy, unappreciative, selfish man I have
>
> >ever met!
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >HOW DARE YOU, accuse ME, of being in YOUR POCKET BOOK. I am not the one with children in
>
>
> >the school system. I am paying YOUR BUTT to have children in the school system. I am
>
> >PAYING YOUR parents' medical care, and social security. YOU ARE THE ONE IN MY POCKET
>
> >BOOK.
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >You are more concerned about yourself then you are your OWN CHILDREN AND PARENTS (sic)!
>
> >What happened when your grandparents gave you a check for your birthday, did you punch
>
> >your grandma in stomach and kick your grandpa in the groin?
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >I am curious why YOU think I, making less then 30% what you do, should have to give you
>
> >money? If you don't like that then why don't you write me a check back?????????????
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >Then I can give the money back to a family that will not attack me for it and accuse ME
>
> >of costing them more money.
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >I and thousands of other Moscow residents are subsidizing YOU and your FAMILY. You
>better
>
> >start being appreciative of that FACT!
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >You are nothing but a whiner that is cutting off your nose despite your face. You keep
>
> >voting for these politicians that give tax cuts to the rich and wondering why your taxes
>
>
> >keep going up. HELLO! Vote for someone that gives a tax hike on the rich so the debt
>goes
>
> >down and you get something for your money instead of spending it all just on the
>interest
>
> >on the debt. Vote for people that will spend billions on putting people together in this
>
>
> >country rather then spending trillions blowing people apart in another.
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >I don't mind giving my money up to educate your children, dispite my poverty status, but
>
>
> >I will be damned if I get attacked for doing so.
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >Donovan J Arnold
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > >From: John Harrell
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > >To: Donovan Arnold , dale@courtneys.us, vision2020@moscow.com
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > >Subject: Re: [Vision2020] MSD Pay and Tenure--a reply
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > >Date: Sat, 28 Jun 2003 23:02:47 -0700 (PDT)
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > >Mr. Donovan Arnold,
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > >You have to be kidding again. This is so hilarious. You really need to
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > >start thinking.
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > >"Yes, and millions more are doing it for free, it is called public school."
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > >For Free!?!? You are joking!
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > >Why is it all liberals think everything is free if it comes from the government?
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > >Free services for this, free services for that, free free free! Think again. It
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > >is not free. The only thing that is being freed here is my money from my pocket.
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > >Please Mr. Arnold, STOP FREEING ME FROM MY MONEY!
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > >I work hard to provide for my family, but how am I supposed to provide for my
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > >family if you keep freeing me from my money? How am I supposed to provide for my
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > >elderly parents if you keep freeing me from my money? How are my elderly parents
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > >supposed to be live if you keep freeing them from their money? More levies, more
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > >bonds, more free services, more free schools, yea, right, stop joking around!
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > >Get outta my pocketbook, get outta my family.
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > >Liberals - wrong in the past, wrong now, and wrong for the future!
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > >Cheers!
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > >John Harrell
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > >From: John Harrell
>
> > >To: Donovan Arnold , dale@courtneys.us, vision2020@moscow.com
>
> > >Subject: Re: [Vision2020] MSD Pay and Tenure--a reply
>
> > >Date: Sat, 28 Jun 2003 23:02:47 -0700 (PDT)
>
> > >
>
> > >Mr. Donovan Arnold,
>
> > >
>
> > >You have to be kidding again. This is so hilarious. You really need to
>
> > >start thinking.
>
> > >
>
> > >"Yes, and millions more are doing it for free, it is called public school."
>
> > >
>
> > >For Free!?!? You are joking!
>
> > >
>
> > >Why is it all liberals think everything is free if it comes from the government?
>
> > >Free services for this, free services for that, free free free! Think again. It
>
> > >is not free. The only thing that is being freed here is my money from my pocket.
>
> > >
>
> > >Please Mr. Arnold, STOP FREEING ME FROM MY MONEY!
>
> > >
>
> > >I work hard to provide for my family, but how am I supposed to provide for my
>
> > >family if you keep freeing me from my money? How am I supposed to provide for my
>
> > >elderly parents if you keep freeing me from my money? How are my elderly parents
>
> > >supposed to be live if you keep freeing them from their money? More levies, more
>
> > >bonds, more free services, more free schools, yea, right, stop joking around!
>
> > >Get outta my pocketbook, get outta my family.
>
> > >
>
> > >Liberals - wrong in the past, wrong now, and wrong for the future!
>
> > >
>
> > >Cheers!
>
> > >John Harrell
>
> > >
>
> > >
>
> > >
>
> > >
>
> > >--- Donovan Arnold wrote:
>
> > >
>
> > >---------------------------------
>
> > >
>
> > >Dale,
>
> > >
>
> > >I am glad you broke up your responses into many emails. Otherwise I don't think I
>could
>
> > >handle so many misconceptions and twists of the truth in one email.
>
> > >
>
> > >
>
> > > >"*If* the cost driver of education were the children, then it's senseless
>
> > >
>
> > >
>
> > >
>
> > >
>
> > > >that inflation-adjusted spending has *increased* by over 100% in that same
>
> > >
>
> > >
>
> > >
>
> > >
>
> > > >time."
>
> > >
>
> > >
>
> > >This is where another one of assumptions is WRONG! It is not children that causes the
>
> > >cost of of school to rise. It is the cost of things related to the children. You
>cannot
>
> > >compare 1992 to 2003. You seem to think that "child enrollment" is the only factor
>that
>
> > >should affect costs of education. This is like saying that rent should go down in
>
> > >proportion to the number of children you have in the house. My parents are paying 4x
>in
>
> > >costs of rent, utilities, and medical costs that they were in 1986 when they had 3
>
> > >children in the house. Gee, perhaps they should go without medical treatment, housing
>or
>
> >
>
> > >utilities.
>
> > >
>
> > >
>
> > >Things have changed a bit since then, and other costs such as medical, housing, rent,
>
> > >utilities and quality of life have changed since 1992.
>
> > >
>
> > >
>
> > >"How odd. Instate tuition at UI is $3,000 per year; out of State tuition at
>
> > >
>
> > >
>
> > >
>
> > >
>
> > > >UI is $10,000 per year; and MSD's "tuition" in FY01 was $8,772 and is
>
> > >
>
> > >
>
> > >
>
> > >
>
> > > >projected to have been $10,112 in FY03. That means that it is cheaper to
>
> > >
>
> > >
>
> > >
>
> > >
>
> > > >give someone a B.A. than it is to put them from 9th to 12th grade."
>
> > >
>
> > >
>
> > >This like the twisting of all your other statistics is WRONG!
>
> > >
>
> > >
>
> > >Let's compare the two shall we:
>
> > >
>
> > >
>
> > >Cost of food to a student at UI 120 meals a month: $1200
>
> > >
>
> > >
>
> > >Tuition and fees: $3144
>
> > >
>
> > >
>
> > >Books: $650
>
> > >
>
> > >
>
> > >Required medical insurance: $641
>
> > >
>
> > >
>
> > >Parking permit $65
>
> > >
>
> > >
>
> > >Portion paid by the tax payer: $10,000
>
> > >
>
> > >
>
> > >Number of Hours spend in class: 15
>
> > >
>
> > >
>
> > >Total Cost: $15,700 for minimum of 15 hours of class for 8 months of classes. Or about
>
>
> > >$500 a credit hour (dived by two semesters assuming 15 credits a semester). Estimated
>
> > >cost of attendance in 2006: Over $20,000
>
> > >
>
> > >
>
> > >Total Cost of attending to student Public elementary school $0
>
> > >
>
> > >
>
> > >Total Cost of attending one pupil to Public elementary school to tax payer $8777
>
> > >
>
> > >
>
> > >Total hours in school 30 hours of class per week for nine months
>
> > >
>
> > >
>
> > >Total cost $146 per credit how hour. That is a 300% less cost then a BA degree.
>
> > >
>
> > >
>
> > >"How is that possible? You've *got* to be kidding! Non-parochial private
>
> > >
>
> > >
>
> > >
>
> > >
>
> > > >schools all across the country do it every day. You can get a top of the
>
> > >
>
> > >
>
> > >
>
> > >
>
> > > >line education for under $3k/year. And homeschoolers across the country are
>
> > >
>
> > >
>
> > >
>
> > >
>
> > > >doing it on a daily basis."
>
> > >
>
> > >
>
> > >Yes, and millions more are doing it for free, it is called public school.
>
> > >
>
> > >
>
> > >Donovan J Arnold
>
> > >
>
> > >
>
> > >
>
> > >
>
> > >
>
> > >
>
> > >
>
> > >
>
> > >
>
> > >
>
> > >
>
> > >
>
> > >
>
> > >---------------------------------
>
> > >STOP MORE SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months
>
> > >FREE*_____________________________________________________ List services made
>available
>
> > >by First Step Internet, serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
>
> > > http://www.fsr.net
>
> > >mailto:Vision2020@moscow.comŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ
>
> > >
>
> > >
>
> > >__________________________________
>
> > >Do you Yahoo!?
>
> > >SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month!
>
> > >http://sbc.yahoo.com
>
> > >
>
> > >_____________________________________________________
>
> > > List services made available by First Step Internet,
>
> > > serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
>
> > > http://www.fsr.net
>
> > > mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com
>
> > >ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >---------------------------------
>
> >The new MSN 8: smart spam protection and 2 months FREE*
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> >SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month!
>
> >http://sbc.yahoo.com
>
> >
>
> >_____________________________________________________
>
> > List services made available by First Step Internet,
>
> > serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
>
> > http://www.fsr.net
>
> > mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com
>
> >ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ
>
>
>
>
>
>---------------------------------
>STOP MORE SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months
>FREE*_____________________________________________________ List services made available
>by First Step Internet, serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
> http://www.fsr.net
>mailto:Vision2020@moscow.comŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ
>
>
>__________________________________
>Do you Yahoo!?
>SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month!
>http://sbc.yahoo.com
>
>_____________________________________________________
> List services made available by First Step Internet,
> serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
> http://www.fsr.net
> mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com
>ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ

Tired of spam? Get advanced junk mail protection with MSN 8. From donovanarnold@hotmail.com Mon Jun 30 03:43:45 2003 From: donovanarnold@hotmail.com (Donovan Arnold) Date: Sun, 29 Jun 2003 19:43:45 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] MSD Pay and Tenure--a reply Message-ID:

Dale,

You write: "Hmmm. Well, if you assume uncritically that spending will spiral out of control regardless of how many students leave MSD, then I doubt anything I could say could/would persuade you otherwise -- your mind will justify what your heart has already chosen."

You avoid the Question:  "Offer a detailed plan of how you would intend to cut the budget and still include the same services for children and educators?"

How many times do I have to ask? You think it is already being done, by private schools, then great, go get a copy of the budget of what they do for disabled children, starving children, and children with emotional disabilities. Then compare it to that of a public school. Then you can say, see I told you so.

I have been in private schools and attended them. They don't have wheelchair access. They don't have teachers to deal with emotionally disturbed children. They don't have Teachers to deal with students that are blind, or deaf, or have a learning disability. They don't have trained professionals to deal with rape victims. They don't have councilors to help students find jobs when they graduate. They don't have sports. They don't have playgrounds many times. They don't have field trips to learn hands on. They don't freely feed the poor students. Many times they don't even have a cafeteria, just tables for kids to eat their lunches they bring from home. They don't have buses. They don't have trouble maker students, they get rid of them. They don't have teachers that speak their mind, they would be fired. They don't have adequate buildings, they are all beat up and old. Many don't have air-conditioning. They rarely have minority students, which add to the cultural l! earning. They don't have students that are of below average intelligence, they are not allowed in.

Here is the question again: Show a detailed plan how you can cut the school budget and provide students and educators with the same opportunities and services?

Your answer should look something like this:

The "name of private school" offers the exact same services for disabled students, the poor, and the below average student. All students are allowed to play in the same games and sports of children in the public school, including baseball, soccer, volleyball, hockey, swimming, and football. Counseling and medical services are also provided for the students at this school the same as a public school with professionals having the same level of education and qualifications. The same subjects are taught and to the same or level as the public schools. Transportation is also provided for each child. The school will except what ever student shows up at the door and will treat them the same. We will not push our religious views on the child if you are against it.

Our budget per child is: (a number less then MSD)

MSD Budget per child is:

This is simple to do Dale! Very basic. If you cannot find "ONE" private school in the United States that provides this and doesn't receive federal and local aid, then you know you have lost this argument. If you can provide concrete proof of a school that can and does do this, then you will convince me and I will admit defeat on this issue. But I am willing to bet that you can't find one "Private" school that accepts all students, regardless of who they are, or what problems and disabilities they bring, still provide the same services for them, and still have a budget less then that of MSD.

I know you will say that you already have. And blah blah blah, but not provide one number or the name of one school in the United states that meets these basic standards are children provide.

Thanks!

Donovan J Arnold

>From: "Dale Courtney"
>To:
>Subject: Re: [Vision2020] MSD Pay and Tenure--a reply
>Date: Sat, 28 Jun 2003 16:20:57 -0700
>
>Donovan writes:
> > Once again, you offer statistics and whine to go with it. You offer no
> > detailed plan to deal with how the public educational system can cut the
> > budget and NOT cut services for the children and educators.
>
>Hmmm. Well, if you assume uncritically that spending will spiral out of
>control regardless of how many students leave MSD, then I doubt anything I
>could say could/would persuade you otherwise -- your mind will justify what
>your heart has already chosen.
>
> > >"If Moscow's population were to decrease from 28,000 people to 23,000
>people
> > >over the course of 10 years, would you be in favor of increasing
> > >inflation-adjusted spending by 100% to the fire department, law
>enforcement,
> > >road maintenance, parks, sewage maintenance, ...?"
> > If the alternatives were to have no parks, no sewage, no fire protection,
> > and no law enforcement;
> > or for us to be forced to move and live in huddled masses with less parks,
> > less sewage treatment, less law enforcement, and less fire protection;
> > or to go without one of the previous services;
> > or to pay only a portion and receive ineffective services from all the
>about
> > services then Yes I would.
>
>Wow, you're such an either-or person -- *either* we spend 50% of our
>State/Local budget on government schools, *or* we have no education.
>
>I assume you would say the same thing about military spending? :)
>
>It's not an either/or thing here, Donovan. There are other options.
>
>1. Dale's option: having the *best* education for the lowest possible cost.
>2. Donovan's option: having the worst education for the highest possible
>cost.
>
>Gee, you choose! Oops, you have!
>
> > Likewise, this like asking would if you would rather have half the surgery
> > you need and pay $3000 or pay $10000 and get the entire surgery. Kind of
> > pointless to get half the surgery.
>
>A better comparison -- you can go and get the surgery from a private
>physician for $3,000 or from the VA hospital (government doctors) for a
>total cost of $10,000 (to the taxpayers). Same surgery, but one costs over 3
>times as much.
>
>But, according to your logic, the VA procedure is "free". Sigh...
>
> > >"That's the relative numbers that the MSD has downsized in the last 10
> > years."
> > You make horrible misleading comparisons Dale. This like comparing Cars to
> > computers. Computers cost 50% less every five years and the technology
> > doubles. Cars double in price every 5 years. A car doesn't crash 5x a day
> > either.
>
>And we're back again to the heart of the discussion -- government
>educational costs are spiraling out of control compared to the rest of the
>economy.
>
>For you, that's perfectly acceptable. Hey! Why not spend even *more*! We're
>getting a bargain at having it only increase by a factor of 3.4x over the
>student bail-out rate.
>
>For some of us, it's time to critically ask *why* those costs are spiraling
>out of control and not to accept that spiraling as the status quo.
>
> > You haven't provided that information because you know it can't be done.
>
>But it *has* been done and *is* being done all over the country (and the
>world) on a daily basis. Listen carefully: parental choice and competition
>among the private sector. If you put some competition into the mix, you will
>find that government school spending will decrease and performance would
>increase. If it didn't then parents will vote with their feet -- as many
>inner city parents have done.
>
>Many voters (and hence States) across this country have realized that the
>government *cannot* and *should not* educate our children -- we call this
>the "Separation of School and State". Many States are aggressively pursuing
>alternatives to the failing status quo that you support. That's what I'm
>proposing as well.
>
>Best,
>Dale Courtney
>Moscow, Idaho
>
>_____________________________________________________
> List services made available by First Step Internet,
> serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
> http://www.fsr.net
> mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com
>ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ

MSN 8 with e-mail virus protection service: 2 months FREE* From dale@courtneys.us Mon Jun 30 03:42:53 2003 From: dale@courtneys.us (Dale Courtney) Date: Sun, 29 Jun 2003 19:42:53 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] Religious Diversity Education References: Message-ID: <009501c33eb1$b6434020$73936bd1@DMCLAPTOP2> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_008F_01C33E76.A185F640 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Wow, talk about rants. Hanson is screaming "DIVERSITY" and I comment that our coins have E = Pluribus Unum on them and from that you move to "In God We Trust", that = Dale thinks the words on our money is some kind of national motto, that = I'd be mis-schooling my children if I homeschooled them, that I'm = corrupted by the Religious Right, and that I'm a frightening educator.=20 Donovan, please go take a valium and lie down. If you want to be = respected for your arguments, you really must stop ranting and start = making sense. This post does you intellectual injustice -- perhaps.=20 Best, Dale ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Donovan Arnold=20 To: thansen@moscow.com ; dale@courtneys.us ; vision2020@moscow.com=20 Sent: Sunday, June 29, 2003 16:17 Subject: RE: [Vision2020] Religious Diversity Education Tom,=20 Dale was just trying to prove his point about the public educational = system not working when he said "Guess we should change the motto on our = money: E Pluribus Unum". He was implying that it meant "In God We Trust" = and not knowing that it meant . He would also know that in 1863, US Treasury Secretary Chase approved = the present motto, "In God We Trust" on the coin to show that The Union = was "on the side of God" against slavery. It was not until the early = 1900's that religious protestants pushed to have them placed back on the = coins. Theodore Roosevelt, President at the time, was opposed to idea = because he believed it was blasphemous to put God's name on something = that was a worldly good. "Out of many, one", is the meaning of the Latin = words "E Pluribus Unum". It was created as part of the official Seal of = the United States. It was created by John Adam and Thomas Jefferson in = 1776. The words "Out of many, one" symbolizes how the 13 colonies came = together as one. It was not until 1956, in order to show the communists whose' side God = was on, that President Eisenhower signed into law the official motto of = the United States being "In God We Trust" instead of "E Pluribus Unum".=20 So naturally, Dale being the way he is, believed that if "E Pluribus = Unum" was the National Motto at one time, and "In God We Trust" being = the National Motto later on, he assumed one meant the other. This is precisely, why so many Americans are against the idea of = funding Home School. Clearly, if Dale was home schooling his children he = would be teaching them wrong information on such simple and basic = information as I learned in 7th grade.=20 It also proves that Dale has been corrupted by the Religious Right in = believing that the forefathers used God in the Constitution and were for = the idea of God being the central theme of all America. What is even more frightening is that Dale is an educator. Donovan J Arnold =20 -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ----- Tired of spam? Get advanced junk mail protection with MSN 8. ------=_NextPart_000_008F_01C33E76.A185F640 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Wow, talk about rants.
 
Hanson is screaming "DIVERSITY" and I comment that our coins have E = Pluribus Unum on them and from that you move to "In God We Trust",=20 that Dale thinks the words on our money is some kind of = national=20 motto, that I'd be mis-schooling my children if I homeschooled them, = that I'm=20 corrupted by the Religious Right, and that I'm a frightening educator. =
 
Donovan, please go take a valium and lie down. If you want to be = respected=20 for your arguments, you really must stop ranting and start making sense. = This=20 post does you intellectual injustice  -- perhaps.
Best,
Dale
 
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Donovan Arnold
To: thansen@moscow.com ; dale@courtneys.us=20 ; vision2020@moscow.com
Sent: Sunday, June 29, 2003 = 16:17
Subject: RE: [Vision2020] = Religious=20 Diversity Education

Tom,

Dale was just = trying to prove=20 his point about the public educational system not working when he said = "Guess=20 we should change the motto on our money: E Pluribus Unum". He was = implying=20 that it meant "In God We Trust" and not knowing that it meant=20 .

 He would = also know that=20 in 1863, US Treasury Secretary Chase approved the present motto, "In = God We=20 Trust" on the coin to show that The Union was "on the side of God" = against=20 slavery. It was not until the early 1900's that religious protestants = pushed=20 to have them placed back on the coins. Theodore Roosevelt, President = at the=20 time, was opposed to idea because he believed it was blasphemous to = put God's=20 name on something that was a worldly good. "Out of many, one", is the = meaning=20 of the Latin words "E Pluribus Unum". It was created as part of the = official=20 Seal of the United States. It was created by John Adam and Thomas = Jefferson in=20 1776. The words "Out of many, one" symbolizes how the 13 colonies came = together as one.

It was not until = 1956, in=20 order to show the communists whose' side God was on, that President = Eisenhower=20 signed into law the official motto of the United States being "In God = We=20 Trust" instead of "E Pluribus Unum".

So naturally, Dale being=20 the way he is, believed that if "E Pluribus Unum" was the National = Motto at=20 one time, and "In God We Trust" being the National Motto later on, he = assumed=20 one meant the other.

This is = precisely, why so=20 many Americans are against the idea of funding Home School. Clearly, = if Dale=20 was home schooling his children he would be teaching them wrong = information on=20 such simple and basic information as I learned in 7th grade. =

It also proves that Dale has been = corrupted by the=20 Religious Right in believing that the forefathers used God in the = Constitution=20 and were for the idea of God being the central theme of all=20 America.

What is even more = frightening=20 is that Dale is an educator.

Donovan J=20 Arnold  


Tired of spam? Get advanced junk=20 mail protection with MSN 8. ------=_NextPart_000_008F_01C33E76.A185F640-- From DonaldH675@aol.com Mon Jun 30 03:52:23 2003 From: DonaldH675@aol.com (DonaldH675@aol.com) Date: Sun, 29 Jun 2003 22:52:23 EDT Subject: [Vision2020] Educational Diversity at Logos Message-ID: <63.1f3257c5.2c30ffe7@aol.com> --part1_63.1f3257c5.2c30ffe7_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dear Visionaries, Since John Harrell is unable to answer my questions about the approximate number of children with special needs who attend Logos it is my hope that Doug Wilson, Logos' equivalent to Dr. Dumbledorr, will be eager to set the record straight. After all, as a Christian school it would be unimaginable that any kind of discrimination based on physical, mental or emotional capabilities (particularly in a faith community of saints) would be allowed to rear its devilish head. Glad that the public school isn't so choosy about who deserves an education. Best, Rose Huskey --part1_63.1f3257c5.2c30ffe7_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dear Visionaries,
Since John Harrell is unable to answer my questions about the approximate nu= mber of children with special needs who attend Logos it is my hope that Doug= Wilson, Logos' equivalent to Dr. Dumbledorr, will be eager to set the recor= d straight.  After all, as a Christian school it would be unimaginable=20= that any kind of discrimination based on physical, mental or emotional capab= ilities (particularly in a faith community of saints) would be allowed to re= ar its devilish head.
Glad that the public school isn't so choosy about who deserves an education.=
Best,
Rose Huskey --part1_63.1f3257c5.2c30ffe7_boundary-- From dale@courtneys.us Mon Jun 30 04:30:32 2003 From: dale@courtneys.us (Dale Courtney) Date: Sun, 29 Jun 2003 20:30:32 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] MSD Pay and Tenure--a reply References: Message-ID: <000a01c33eb7$f7494fa0$2a936bd1@DMCLAPTOP2> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C33E7D.49C50A70 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Donovan, You admit that we have a problem with the spending, etc, at MSD and I'll = lay out the plan.=20 Otherwise, I'll be wasting my breath -- like a doctor telling a patient = he has terminal cancer, and the patient is in denial and refusing = therapy. Best, Dale ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Donovan Arnold=20 To: dale@courtneys.us ; vision2020@moscow.com=20 Sent: Sunday, June 29, 2003 19:43 Subject: Re: [Vision2020] MSD Pay and Tenure--a reply Dale,=20 You write: "Hmmm. Well, if you assume uncritically that spending will = spiral out of control regardless of how many students leave MSD, then I = doubt anything I could say could/would persuade you otherwise -- your = mind will justify what your heart has already chosen." You avoid the Question: "Offer a detailed plan of how you would = intend to cut the budget and still include the same services for = children and educators?" How many times do I have to ask? You think it is already being done, = by private schools, then great, go get a copy of the budget of what they = do for disabled children, starving children, and children with emotional = disabilities. Then compare it to that of a public school. Then you can = say, see I told you so. I have been in private schools and attended them. They don't have = wheelchair access. They don't have teachers to deal with emotionally = disturbed children. They don't have Teachers to deal with students that = are blind, or deaf, or have a learning disability. They don't have = trained professionals to deal with rape victims. They don't have = councilors to help students find jobs when they graduate. They don't = have sports. They don't have playgrounds many times. They don't have = field trips to learn hands on. They don't freely feed the poor students. = Many times they don't even have a cafeteria, just tables for kids to eat = their lunches they bring from home. They don't have buses. They don't = have trouble maker students, they get rid of them. They don't have = teachers that speak their mind, they would be fired. They don't have = adequate buildings, they are all beat up and old. Many don't have = air-conditioning. They rarely have minority students, which add to the = cultural l! earning. They don't have students that are of below average = intelligence, they are not allowed in.=20 Here is the question again: Show a detailed plan how you can cut the = school budget and provide students and educators with the same = opportunities and services? Your answer should look something like this: The "name of private school" offers the exact same services for = disabled students, the poor, and the below average student. All students = are allowed to play in the same games and sports of children in the = public school, including baseball, soccer, volleyball, hockey, swimming, = and football. Counseling and medical services are also provided for the = students at this school the same as a public school with professionals = having the same level of education and qualifications. The same subjects = are taught and to the same or level as the public schools. = Transportation is also provided for each child. The school will except = what ever student shows up at the door and will treat them the same. We = will not push our religious views on the child if you are against it. Our budget per child is: (a number less then MSD) MSD Budget per child is:=20 This is simple to do Dale! Very basic. If you cannot find "ONE" = private school in the United States that provides this and doesn't = receive federal and local aid, then you know you have lost this = argument. If you can provide concrete proof of a school that can and = does do this, then you will convince me and I will admit defeat on this = issue. But I am willing to bet that you can't find one "Private" school = that accepts all students, regardless of who they are, or what problems = and disabilities they bring, still provide the same services for them, = and still have a budget less then that of MSD.=20 I know you will say that you already have. And blah blah blah, but not = provide one number or the name of one school in the United states that = meets these basic standards are children provide. Thanks! Donovan J Arnold >From: "Dale Courtney"=20 >To:=20 >Subject: Re: [Vision2020] MSD Pay and Tenure--a reply=20 >Date: Sat, 28 Jun 2003 16:20:57 -0700=20 >=20 >Donovan writes:=20 > > Once again, you offer statistics and whine to go with it. You = offer no=20 > > detailed plan to deal with how the public educational system can = cut the=20 > > budget and NOT cut services for the children and educators.=20 >=20 >Hmmm. Well, if you assume uncritically that spending will spiral out = of=20 >control regardless of how many students leave MSD, then I doubt = anything I=20 >could say could/would persuade you otherwise -- your mind will = justify what=20 >your heart has already chosen.=20 >=20 > > >"If Moscow's population were to decrease from 28,000 people to = 23,000=20 >people=20 > > >over the course of 10 years, would you be in favor of increasing=20 > > >inflation-adjusted spending by 100% to the fire department, law=20 >enforcement,=20 > > >road maintenance, parks, sewage maintenance, ...?"=20 > > If the alternatives were to have no parks, no sewage, no fire = protection,=20 > > and no law enforcement;=20 > > or for us to be forced to move and live in huddled masses with = less parks,=20 > > less sewage treatment, less law enforcement, and less fire = protection;=20 > > or to go without one of the previous services;=20 > > or to pay only a portion and receive ineffective services from all = the=20 >about=20 > > services then Yes I would.=20 >=20 >Wow, you're such an either-or person -- *either* we spend 50% of our=20 >State/Local budget on government schools, *or* we have no education.=20 >=20 >I assume you would say the same thing about military spending? :)=20 >=20 >It's not an either/or thing here, Donovan. There are other options.=20 >=20 >1. Dale's option: having the *best* education for the lowest possible = cost.=20 >2. Donovan's option: having the worst education for the highest = possible=20 >cost.=20 >=20 >Gee, you choose! Oops, you have!=20 >=20 > > Likewise, this like asking would if you would rather have half the = surgery=20 > > you need and pay $3000 or pay $10000 and get the entire surgery. = Kind of=20 > > pointless to get half the surgery.=20 >=20 >A better comparison -- you can go and get the surgery from a private=20 >physician for $3,000 or from the VA hospital (government doctors) for = a=20 >total cost of $10,000 (to the taxpayers). Same surgery, but one costs = over 3=20 >times as much.=20 >=20 >But, according to your logic, the VA procedure is "free". Sigh...=20 >=20 > > >"That's the relative numbers that the MSD has downsized in the = last 10=20 > > years."=20 > > You make horrible misleading comparisons Dale. This like comparing = Cars to=20 > > computers. Computers cost 50% less every five years and the = technology=20 > > doubles. Cars double in price every 5 years. A car doesn't crash = 5x a day=20 > > either.=20 >=20 >And we're back again to the heart of the discussion -- government=20 >educational costs are spiraling out of control compared to the rest = of the=20 >economy.=20 >=20 >For you, that's perfectly acceptable. Hey! Why not spend even *more*! = We're=20 >getting a bargain at having it only increase by a factor of 3.4x over = the=20 >student bail-out rate.=20 >=20 >For some of us, it's time to critically ask *why* those costs are = spiraling=20 >out of control and not to accept that spiraling as the status quo.=20 >=20 > > You haven't provided that information because you know it can't be = done.=20 >=20 >But it *has* been done and *is* being done all over the country (and = the=20 >world) on a daily basis. Listen carefully: parental choice and = competition=20 >among the private sector. If you put some competition into the mix, = you will=20 >find that government school spending will decrease and performance = would=20 >increase. If it didn't then parents will vote with their feet -- as = many=20 >inner city parents have done.=20 >=20 >Many voters (and hence States) across this country have realized that = the=20 >government *cannot* and *should not* educate our children -- we call = this=20 >the "Separation of School and State". Many States are aggressively = pursuing=20 >alternatives to the failing status quo that you support. That's what = I'm=20 >proposing as well.=20 >=20 >Best,=20 >Dale Courtney=20 >Moscow, Idaho=20 >=20 >_____________________________________________________=20 > List services made available by First Step Internet,=20 > serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.=20 > http://www.fsr.net=20 > mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com=20 = >=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF= =AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF= =AF=AF=AF=AF=20 -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ----- MSN 8 with e-mail virus protection service: 2 months FREE* = _____________________________________________________ List services made = available by First Step Internet, serving the communities of the Palouse = since 1994. http://www.fsr.net mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com = =AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF= =AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF= =AF=AF=AF ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C33E7D.49C50A70 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Donovan,
 
You admit that we have a problem with the spending, etc, at MSD and = I'll=20 lay out the plan.
 
Otherwise, I'll be wasting my breath -- like a doctor telling a = patient he=20 has terminal cancer, and the patient is in denial and refusing = therapy.
 
Best,
Dale
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Donovan Arnold
To: dale@courtneys.us ; vision2020@moscow.com
Sent: Sunday, June 29, 2003 = 19:43
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] MSD = Pay and=20 Tenure--a reply

Dale,

You write: "Hmmm. Well, if you assume uncritically that spending = will=20 spiral out of control regardless of how many students leave MSD, then = I doubt=20 anything I could say could/would persuade you otherwise -- your mind = will=20 justify what your heart has already chosen."

You avoid the Question:  "Offer a detailed plan = of how=20 you would intend to cut the budget and still include the same services = for=20 children and educators?"

How many times do I have to ask? You think it is already being = done, by=20 private schools, then great, go get a copy of the budget of what they = do for=20 disabled children, starving children, and children with emotional=20 disabilities. Then compare it to that of a public school. Then you can = say,=20 see I told you so.

I have been in private schools and attended them. They don't have=20 wheelchair access. They don't have teachers to deal with emotionally = disturbed=20 children. They don't have Teachers to deal with students that are = blind, or=20 deaf, or have a learning disability. They don't have trained = professionals to=20 deal with rape victims. They don't have councilors to help students = find jobs=20 when they graduate. They don't have sports. They don't have = playgrounds many=20 times. They don't have field trips to learn hands on. They don't = freely feed=20 the poor students. Many times they don't even have a cafeteria, just = tables=20 for kids to eat their lunches they bring from home. They don't have = buses.=20 They don't have trouble maker students, they get rid of them. They = don't have=20 teachers that speak their mind, they would be fired. They don't have = adequate=20 buildings, they are all beat up and old. Many don't have=20 air-conditioning. They rarely have minority students, which add = to the=20 cultural l! earning. They don't have students that are of below = average=20 intelligence, they are not allowed in.

Here is the question again: Show a detailed plan how = you can=20 cut the school budget and provide students and educators with the same = opportunities and services?

Your answer should look something like this:

The "name of private school" offers the exact same services for = disabled=20 students, the poor, and the below average student. All students are = allowed to=20 play in the same games and sports of children in the public = school,=20 including baseball, soccer, volleyball, hockey, swimming, and = football.=20 Counseling and medical services are also provided for the students at = this=20 school the same as a public school with professionals having the same = level of=20 education and qualifications. The same subjects are taught and to the = same or=20 level as the public schools. Transportation is also provided for each = child.=20 The school will except what ever student shows up at the door and will = treat=20 them the same. We will not push our religious views on the child if = you are=20 against it.

Our budget per child is: (a number less then MSD)

MSD Budget per child is:

This is simple to do Dale! Very basic. If you cannot = find "ONE" private school in the United States that provides this = and=20 doesn't receive federal and local aid, then you know you have lost = this=20 argument. If you can provide concrete proof of a = school that=20 can and does do this, then you will convince me and I will admit = defeat on=20 this issue. But I am willing to bet that you can't find one "Private" = school=20 that accepts all students, regardless of who they are, or what = problems and=20 disabilities they bring, still provide the same services for them, and = still=20 have a budget less then that of MSD.

I know you will say that you already have. And blah blah blah, but = not=20 provide one number or the name of one school in the United states that = meets=20 these basic standards are children provide.

Thanks!

Donovan J Arnold

>From: "Dale Courtney"
>To:
>Subject: Re: [Vision2020] MSD Pay and Tenure--a reply=20
>Date: Sat, 28 Jun 2003 16:20:57 -0700=20
>=20
>Donovan writes:=20
> > Once again, you offer statistics and whine to go = with it.=20 You offer no=20
> > detailed plan to deal with how the public = educational=20 system can cut the=20
> > budget and NOT cut services for the children and=20 educators.=20
>=20
>Hmmm. Well, if you assume uncritically that spending = will=20 spiral out of=20
>control regardless of how many students leave MSD, then = I doubt=20 anything I=20
>could say could/would persuade you otherwise -- your = mind will=20 justify what=20
>your heart has already chosen.=20
>=20
> > >"If Moscow's population were to decrease from = 28,000=20 people to 23,000=20
>people=20
> > >over the course of 10 years, would you be in = favor of=20 increasing=20
> > >inflation-adjusted spending by 100% to the = fire=20 department, law=20
>enforcement,=20
> > >road maintenance, parks, sewage maintenance, = ...?"=20
> > If the alternatives were to have no parks, no = sewage, no=20 fire protection,=20
> > and no law enforcement;=20
> > or for us to be forced to move and live in = huddled masses=20 with less parks,=20
> > less sewage treatment, less law enforcement, and = less=20 fire protection;=20
> > or to go without one of the previous services;=20
> > or to pay only a portion and receive ineffective = services=20 from all the=20
>about=20
> > services then Yes I would.=20
>=20
>Wow, you're such an either-or person -- *either* we = spend 50%=20 of our=20
>State/Local budget on government schools, *or* we have = no=20 education.=20
>=20
>I assume you would say the same thing about military = spending?=20 :)=20
>=20
>It's not an either/or thing here, Donovan. There are = other=20 options.=20
>=20
>1. Dale's option: having the *best* education for the = lowest=20 possible cost.=20
>2. Donovan's option: having the worst education for the = highest=20 possible=20
>cost.=20
>=20
>Gee, you choose! Oops, you have!=20
>=20
> > Likewise, this like asking would if you would = rather have=20 half the surgery=20
> > you need and pay $3000 or pay $10000 and get the = entire=20 surgery. Kind of=20
> > pointless to get half the surgery.=20
>=20
>A better comparison -- you can go and get the surgery = from a=20 private=20
>physician for $3,000 or from the VA hospital = (government=20 doctors) for a=20
>total cost of $10,000 (to the taxpayers). Same surgery, = but one=20 costs over 3=20
>times as much.=20
>=20
>But, according to your logic, the VA procedure is = "free".=20 Sigh...=20
>=20
> > >"That's the relative numbers that the MSD has = downsized in the last 10=20
> > years."=20
> > You make horrible misleading comparisons Dale. = This like=20 comparing Cars to=20
> > computers. Computers cost 50% less every five = years and=20 the technology=20
> > doubles. Cars double in price every 5 years. A = car=20 doesn't crash 5x a day=20
> > either.=20
>=20
>And we're back again to the heart of the discussion --=20 government=20
>educational costs are spiraling out of control compared = to the=20 rest of the=20
>economy.=20
>=20
>For you, that's perfectly acceptable. Hey! Why not = spend even=20 *more*! We're=20
>getting a bargain at having it only increase by a = factor of=20 3.4x over the=20
>student bail-out rate.=20
>=20
>For some of us, it's time to critically ask *why* those = costs=20 are spiraling=20
>out of control and not to accept that spiraling as the = status=20 quo.=20
>=20
> > You haven't provided that information because you = know it=20 can't be done.=20
>=20
>But it *has* been done and *is* being done all over the = country=20 (and the=20
>world) on a daily basis. Listen carefully: parental = choice and=20 competition=20
>among the private sector. If you put some competition = into the=20 mix, you will=20
>find that government school spending will decrease and=20 performance would=20
>increase. If it didn't then parents will vote with = their feet=20 -- as many=20
>inner city parents have done.=20
>=20
>Many voters (and hence States) across this country have = realized that the=20
>government *cannot* and *should not* educate our = children -- we=20 call this=20
>the "Separation of School and State". Many States are=20 aggressively pursuing=20
>alternatives to the failing status quo that you = support. That's=20 what I'm=20
>proposing as well.=20
>=20
>Best,=20
>Dale Courtney=20
>Moscow, Idaho=20
>=20
>_____________________________________________________=20
> List services made available by First Step Internet,=20
> serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.=20
> http://www.fsr.net=20
> mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com=20
=
>=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF= =AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF= =AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=20

MSN 8 with e-mail = virus=20 protection service: 2 months FREE*=20 _____________________________________________________ List services = made=20 available by First Step Internet, serving the communities of the = Palouse since=20 1994. http://www.fsr.net mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com=20 = =AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF= =AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF= =AF=AF=AF=20 ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C33E7D.49C50A70-- From johnbharrell@yahoo.com Mon Jun 30 05:08:47 2003 From: johnbharrell@yahoo.com (John Harrell) Date: Sun, 29 Jun 2003 21:08:47 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Vision2020] Meeting Educational Needs In-Reply-To: <10c.264d622f.2c307870@aol.com> Message-ID: <20030630040847.45181.qmail@web13401.mail.yahoo.com> Hello Rose Huskey, It is interesting how you just picked out Hitler from that group. Would you like to address the other for us also? In case you have forgot, here they are again: QUOTATION: When an opponent declares, “I will not come over to your side,” I calmly say, “Your child belongs to us already.... What are you? You will pass on. Your descendants, however, now stand in the new camp. In a short time they will know nothing else but this new community.” ATTRIBUTION: Adolf Hitler (1889–1945), German dictator. speech, Nov. 6, 1933. Quoted in William L. Shirer, “Education in the Third Reich,” ch. 8, The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich (1959); speaking about the schools and their indoctrination of the Hilterjugend (Hitler Youth Corps). It was Adolph Hitler who said, "Let me control the textbooks, and I will control the state." Norman Thomas, Socialist and member of the Civil Liberties Union, boldly told the world, "The American people will never knowingly adopt Socialism, but under the name of liberalism, they will adopt every fragment of the Socialist program until one day America will be a Socialist nation without ever knowing how it happened." "Give me your four year olds," said Lenin "and in a generation I will build a Socialist state." Lesbian author Patricia Warren, boldly told the gay and lesbian community, "It is the FIRST fact of civilization that--whoever captures the kids - owns the future." In his book ‘The Science Of Power’, Benjamin Kidd wrote, "Give us the young. -- Give us the young and We will create a new mind and a new Earth in a SINGLE generation." Ross L. Finny, a socialist PhD in one of his books tells us this; "Everything depends on passing out the expert opinions of the social scientists to the masses of the people; the schools are the only adequate agency for this function." Lastly, the American Humanist Association understands the importance of capturing the children – for they have written: "In order to capture this nation, one has to totally remove moral and spiritual values and absolutes from the thinking of the child. The child has to think that there is no standard of right and wrong, that truth is relative, and that diversity is the only absolute to be gained." Cheers! John Harrell --- DonaldH675@aol.com wrote: > Dear Visionaries, > The recent discussions between John Harrell and Donovan Arnold have raised > some interesting questions about public vs. private education. I am hopeful > that John (et al) can add some factual information to the debate. We know that > public schools accept all children regardless of physical, emotional, or mental > challenges. John, can you share with us, in general demographic terms, how > Logos addresses the special educational needs of these children? How many kids > needing special ed services are in Logos? In the event that severely > handicapped or even moderately handicapped children are not admitted, what solution > is offered to the parents of these kids? Would it be no school, home school, > or government school? > I am surprised, John, that you would introduce the rhetoric of Hitler in an > attempt to prove your argument against liberals and public schools. We have > talked before on this list about Hitler's expressed career guidance for women, > that is, "children, church, and kitchen." The uncanny similarity to the life > goals for the women of Christ Church should be disturbing to you - if you see > Hitler and his fascist philosophy as problematic. I think it is fair to say > that book burnings, rabid racism, hateful homophobia - the Rev. Fred Phelps for > example, anti-Semitism and demands for lockstep political thinking are > accurately associated with the Christian right - and by historical extension, the > 3rd Reich. Come to think of it, handicapped people were also excluded from > social interaction and education in those splendid days of German Aryan magic. > John, I know that you are not a Nazi - and I know that the majority of Christ > Church members aren't either. I also know that Donovan and his family have a > strong and admirable history of commitment to meeting the social and > educational needs of disabled people. And yes, you pay a considerable amount of money > to educate your children in a way that is philosophically and religiously > meaningful to you in addition to supporting a public educational system that does > not serve your needs. Here's the difference, no matter how much money I was > willing to pay to educate my grandchildren at Logos School, because of my > religious, social, and political beliefs they would not be admitted. On the other > hand, your children would be welcomed into public schools without qualifying > questions. Private schools, by their nature, are deliberately developed on > the idea of exclusion. Thankfully, our founding fathers and mothers, had a > larger vision for American children, and I have to say, it gives me special > pleasure that private school folks get to pay for it too. > Best, > Rose Huskey > > __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! http://sbc.yahoo.com From donovanarnold@hotmail.com Mon Jun 30 06:06:06 2003 From: donovanarnold@hotmail.com (Donovan Arnold) Date: Sun, 29 Jun 2003 22:06:06 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] MSD Pay and Tenure--a reply Message-ID:

Dale,

Your refusal to even provide the name of ONE Private School and their budget that offers the same services as MSD is a sure sign of your defeat and a sign you have not done any research to back your claims.

 You were asked:

"Here is the question again: Show a detailed plan how you can cut the school budget and provide students and educators with the same opportunities and services?"

and 

"I know you will say that you already have. And blah blah blah, but not provide one number or the name of one school in the United states that meets these basic standards are children provide."

and You responded: By saying a name, a number: no you responded by saying:

"You admit that we have a problem with the spending, etc, at MSD and I'll lay out the plan.Otherwise, I'll be wasting my breath -- like a doctor telling a patient he has terminal cancer, and the patient is in denial and refusing therapy."

No numbers there Dale, not ONE name of a schools either! More Blah Blah Blah from you. 

PROBLEM 1: Dale is ignoring the question:

PROBLEM 2: Dale is trying to win the argument by getting me to admit he is right BEFORE presenting the evidence. This is like saying, admit the world is not round and I will present the evidence it is FLAT. No Dale, provide the evidence FIRST, then I will admit to you being correct or incorrect. If I admitted that MSD had a Spending Problem, and believed it, their would not be any need to present the evidence would there? Provide the name and budget of a "Private" school that offers the same opportunities to students and educators as the MSD.

PROBLEM 3: FALSE Analogy:

NO, this like a doctor saying to a patient, I haven't done ANY research to back my believe, but you got cancer and I am going to remove a lung and both legs.

PROBLEM 4: Contradiction of words and actions:

"Otherwise, I will be wasting my breath" 

Gee, Dale, you wrote over 25 postings whining about this issue and haven't convinced a soul. Yet, now writing one email with a NAME of the school and BUDGET of the School that provides the same services to students and educators as MSD is wasting breath? I am asking for one word and a number, not 25 postings. Hardly wasting breath.

I have listed the question ten more times below in different font and sizes to be sure that you get the question. Your refusal to even provide the name of ONE Private School and their budget that offers the same services as MSD is a sure sign of your defeat and a sign you have not done any research to back your claims. If you have, then type the name and budget, and I will be proven wrong. But you know, like everyone else on Vision2020, that no private school provides the same services to all students as public students at a lesser cost. Your inability to name one "private" non-publicly funded school to do this is CLEAR evidence you are wrong, wrong, WRONG! And you will continue to make excuses, whine, complain, and show statistics, rather then naming that ONE Private school. And the answer is clear why you do this. Because not ONE Private non-publicly funded school exists in this country that does. One the other hand, excus! es, statistics, whining, and complaints come in endless quantities and shapes. So that is what you use, because that is all you have.

Thanks!

Donovan J Arnold

Show a detailed plan how you can cut the school budget and provide students and educators with the same opportunities and services?"

Show a detailed plan how you can cut the school budget and provide students and educators with the same opportunities and services?"

Show a detailed plan how you can cut the school budget and provide students and educators with the same opportunities and services?"

Show a detailed plan how you can cut the school budget and provide students and educators with the same opportunities and services?"

Show a detailed plan how you can cut the school budget and provide students and educators with the same opportunities and services?"

Show a detailed plan how you can cut the school budget and provide students and educators with the same opportunities and services?"

Show a detailed plan how you can cut the school budget and provide students and educators with the same opportunities and services?"

Show a detailed plan how you can cut the school budget and provide students and educators with the same opportunities and services?"

Show a detailed plan how you can cut the school budget and provide students and educators with the same opportunities and services?"

Show a detailed plan how you can cut the school budget and provide students and educators with the same opportunities and services?"


Help STOP SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* From mitch@mochaoflove.org Mon Jun 30 06:41:41 2003 From: mitch@mochaoflove.org (Mitch Parks) Date: Sun, 29 Jun 2003 22:41:41 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Vision2020] fireworks? Message-ID: I've been gone for a couple of weeks and may have missed this in the mire... Are there "grand" Moscow Fireworks this year? Where and when? Mitch Parks Moscow, ID From dale@courtneys.us Mon Jun 30 13:34:16 2003 From: dale@courtneys.us (Dale Courtney) Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2003 05:34:16 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] MSD Pay and Tenure--a reply References: Message-ID: <001d01c33f03$ecc82fa0$5e936bd1@DMCLAPTOP2> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_001A_01C33EC9.3F57E7A0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Donovan, Au contraire. I've been contacted off-list by many who have ignored your = rants and embraced my stats.=20 As I said, I'm not going to waste my time with you laying out a detailed = plan when you don't even accept that there's anything wrong with the = status quo. When you are ready to admit the problem, then I'll give you = the solution.=20 All you have proven is that you are adept in using the fonts feature in = your email client. But, alas, more form over function.=20 Have a great day! Best, Dale Courtney Moscow, Idaho Gee, Dale, you wrote over 25 postings whining about this issue and = haven't convinced a soul. Yet, now writing one email with a NAME of the = school and BUDGET of the School that provides the same services to = students and educators as MSD is wasting breath? I am asking for one = word and a number, not 25 postings. Hardly wasting breath. Thanks! Donovan J Arnold Show a detailed plan how you can cut the school budget and provide = students and educators with the same opportunities and services?" Show a detailed plan how you can cut the school budget and provide = students and educators with the same opportunities and services?" Show a detailed plan how you can cut the school budget and provide = students and educators with the same opportunities and services?" Show a detailed plan how you can cut the school budget and provide = students and educators with the same opportunities and services?" Show a detailed plan how you can cut the school budget and provide = students and educators with the same opportunities and services?" Show a detailed plan how you can cut the school budget and provide = students and educators with the same opportunities and services?" Show a detailed plan how you can cut the school budget and provide = students and educators with the same opportunities and services?" Show a detailed plan how you can cut the school budget and provide = students and educators with the same opportunities and services?" Show a detailed plan how you can cut the school budget and provide = students and educators with the same opportunities and services?" Show a detailed plan how you can cut the school budget and provide = students and educators with the same opportunities and services?" -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ----- Help STOP SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* = _____________________________________________________ List services made = available by First Step Internet, serving the communities of the Palouse = since 1994. http://www.fsr.net mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com = =AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF= =AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF= =AF=AF=AF ------=_NextPart_000_001A_01C33EC9.3F57E7A0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Donovan,
 
Au contraire. I've been contacted off-list by many who have ignored = your=20 rants and embraced my stats.
 
As I said, I'm not going to waste my time with you laying out a = detailed=20 plan when you don't even accept that there's anything wrong with the = status=20 quo. When you are ready to admit the problem, then I'll give you = the=20 solution.
 
All you have proven is that you are adept in using the fonts = feature in=20 your email client. But, alas, more form over function.
 
Have a great day!
 
Best,
Dale Courtney
Moscow, Idaho
Gee, Dale, you wrote over = 25 postings=20 whining about this issue and haven't convinced a soul. Yet, now = writing one=20 email with a NAME of the school and BUDGET of the School that = provides=20 the same services to students and educators as MSD is wasting = breath? I=20 am asking for one word and a number, not 25 postings. Hardly = wasting=20 breath.

Thanks!

Donovan J Arnold

Show a detailed plan how you can cut the = school budget=20 and provide students and educators with the same opportunities and=20 services?"

Show a detailed plan how you can cut = the school=20 budget and provide students and educators with the same opportunities = and=20 services?"

Show a=20 detailed plan how you can cut the school budget and provide students = and=20 educators with the same opportunities and services?"

Show = a detailed=20 plan how you can cut the school budget and provide students and = educators with=20 the same opportunities and services?"

Show a=20 detailed plan how you can cut the school budget and provide students = and=20 educators with the same opportunities and services?"

Show a = detailed plan=20 how you can cut the school budget and provide students and educators = with the=20 same opportunities and services?"

Show a detailed plan how you can cut the school budget and = provide=20 students and educators with the same opportunities and = services?"

Show a = detailed plan=20 how you can cut the school budget and provide students and educators = with the=20 same opportunities and services?"

Show a=20 detailed plan how you can cut the school budget and provide students = and=20 educators with the same opportunities and services?"

Show a detailed plan how you can cut the school = budget and=20 provide students and educators with the same opportunities and=20 services?"


Help STOP SPAM with the new MSN=20 8 and get 2 months FREE*=20 _____________________________________________________ List services = made=20 available by First Step Internet, serving the communities of the = Palouse since=20 1994. http://www.fsr.net mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com=20 = =AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF= =AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF= =AF=AF=AF=20 ------=_NextPart_000_001A_01C33EC9.3F57E7A0-- From DonaldH675@aol.com Mon Jun 30 14:05:23 2003 From: DonaldH675@aol.com (DonaldH675@aol.com) Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2003 09:05:23 EDT Subject: [Vision2020] John Harell's "isms" Message-ID: <1f0.c48dbe4.2c318f93@aol.com> --part1_1f0.c48dbe4.2c318f93_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dear Visionaries, John Harrell invited me to comment of a series of quotations regarding social control through the intellectual kidnapping of children. Since I don't endorse or participate in any group that seeks to enforce political or religious lock-step thinking on others I am somewhat at a loss. Was your point, John, that political groups have an agenda? If so, I think we can all agree that this is so. It just seems curious to me that you want to go down that path. You neglected to mention in your litany of "isms" i.e. fascism, communism, socialism, lesbianism, one that is closest to your own heart - theocraticism. (Is that even a word?) It is the case that you belong to a faith community whose members believe that in a perfect world, law and social custom would be based on the Christ Church notion and interpretation of biblical morality. The "community of saints" as opposed to the "community of sinners," (where the rest of us reside), is a self-descriptor used by Christ Church members. Our world views collide, alas, sometimes acrimoniously, because of the state of sin and ignorance you gratuitously assign to others who don't hold the Westminster Confession as the philosophical expression and explanation of the meaning of life. I support public education because I celebrate the richness and possibilities inherent in cultural and intellectual diversity. You support private, religious education because it is central to "protecting" (aka controlling) the social experience and intellectual development of your children. Practically speaking, it appears that you adhere more closely to the agenda of totalitarianism than I do. Let's see, inclusive vs. exclusive, that's not a very difficult choice for me. And of course, I can call the Moscow School District office and find out exactly how many children are provided special education services and accommodations, while in the world of Logos; it seems that some children - even the children of saints - just aren't allowed in the door. Best, Rose Huskey --part1_1f0.c48dbe4.2c318f93_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dear Visionaries,
John Harrell invited me to comment of a series of quotations regarding socia= l control through the intellectual kidnapping of children.  Since I don= 't endorse or participate in any group that seeks to enforce political or re= ligious lock-step thinking on others I am somewhat at a loss.  Was your= point, John, that political groups have an agenda?  If so, I think we=20= can all agree that this is so.  It just seems curious to me that you wa= nt to go down that path.  You neglected to mention in your litany of "i= sms" i.e. fascism, communism, socialism, lesbianism, one that is closest to=20= your own heart - theocraticism. (Is that even a word?) 
It is the case that you belong to a faith community whose members believe th= at in a perfect world, law and social custom would be based on the Christ Ch= urch notion and interpretation of biblical morality.  The "community of= saints" as opposed to the "community of sinners," (where the rest of us res= ide), is a self-descriptor used by Christ Church members.  Our world vi= ews collide, alas, sometimes acrimoniously, because of the state of sin and=20= ignorance you gratuitously assign to others who don't hold the Westminster C= onfession as the philosophical expression and explanation of the meaning of=20= life. 
I support public education because I celebrate the richness and possibilitie= s inherent in cultural and intellectual diversity.  You support private= , religious education because it is central to "protecting" (aka controlling= ) the social experience and intellectual development of your children. = Practically speaking, it appears that you adhere more closely to the agenda= of totalitarianism than I do.  Let's see, inclusive vs. exclusive, tha= t's not a very difficult choice for me. 
And of course, I can call the Moscow School District office and find out exa= ctly how many children are provided special education services and accommoda= tions, while in the world of Logos; it seems that some children - even the c= hildren of saints - just aren't allowed in the door.
Best,
Rose Huskey







 --part1_1f0.c48dbe4.2c318f93_boundary-- From carlwestberg846@hotmail.com Mon Jun 30 16:23:04 2003 From: carlwestberg846@hotmail.com (Carl Westberg) Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2003 08:23:04 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] Watering Message-ID: We were discussing the Moscow water situation in the office this morning, and we realized that none of us really know what we should or should not be doing, and when we should or should not be doing it. Does anyone know? I apologize for straying from the public-private school flame throwing. Carl Westberg Jr. _________________________________________________________________ Add photos to your e-mail with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail From skalasz@ci.moscow.id.us Mon Jun 30 16:44:34 2003 From: skalasz@ci.moscow.id.us (Stephanie Kalasz) Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2003 08:44:34 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] Moscow Water Message-ID: <93812436F60FD511A83A0002B3029EFC7314FC@DCFS01> This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C33F1E.81132470 Content-Type: text/plain PRESS RELEASE From: Gary J. Riedner, Moscow City Supervisor, 206 E. 3rd St., Moscow, Idaho 83843, telephone: (208) 883-7006, Fax: (208) 883-7018, e-mail: griedner@moscow.com Date: June 24, 2003 The City of Moscow has implemented the first step in a plan to encourage the public to reduce water use for irrigation in order to avoid the possibility of state mandated water limitations. At a special City council meeting held on June 23, 2003, the Moscow City Council voted unanimously to support water conservation measures to reduce the rate of depletion of the Grand Ronde aquifer, which supplies three-fourths of Moscow's drinking water. The aquifer, which is shared by the University of Idaho, City of Pullman and Washington State University, is dropping approximately one to two feet per year. The first step the Council took was to limit outdoor irrigation to between the hours of 6:00 pm and 9:00 am. This move will reduce the water lost to evaporation and by some estimates, could save up to a million gallons of irrigation water per day. The restriction should commence at 12:01 am, July 1, 2003, however city residents are encouraged to begin the program immediately. According to Mayor Marshall Comstock, compliance to the restriction is voluntary at this time, but if the measures do not save significant amounts of water, then the program will become mandatory and other conservation measures, such as alternate day watering may become necessary. According to Comstock, "The citizens of Moscow are always ready to do the right thing and I know that they will respond enthusiastically to our call for their help." Mayor Comstock also stated that city staff will be working with the Moscow Health and Environment Commission and a consultant to develop a water conservation program. That program should be developed over the next several weeks. Information about the watering restrictions and other conservation measures may soon be viewed on the City's website www.ci.moscow.id.us and on cable channel 13. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C33F1E.81132470 Content-Type: text/html Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

PRESS RELEASE

 

From: =             = Gary J. Riedner, Moscow City Supervisor, 206 E. 3rd = St., Moscow, Idaho 83843, telephone: (208) 883-7006, Fax: (208) 883-7018, e-mail: = griedner@moscow.com

 

Date:      &nbs= p;        June 24, = 2003

 

The City of Moscow has = implemented the first step in a plan to encourage the public to reduce water use for = irrigation in order to avoid the possibility of state mandated water = limitations.

 

At a special City council meeting held on = June 23, 2003, the Moscow City Council voted unanimously = to support water conservation measures to reduce the rate of depletion of the Grand Ronde aquifer, = which supplies three-fourths of Moscow's drinking water. The aquifer, which = is shared by the University of Idaho, City of Pullman and Washington State = University, is dropping approximately one to two feet per year.

 

The first step the Council took was to limit = outdoor irrigation to between the hours of 6:00 pm and 9:00 am. = This move will reduce the water lost to evaporation and by some = estimates, could save up to a million gallons of irrigation water per day. The restriction = should commence at 12:01 am, July 1, 2003, however city residents are = encouraged to begin the program immediately.

 

According to Mayor Marshall Comstock, = compliance to the restriction is voluntary at this time, but if the measures do not save significant amounts of water, then the program will become mandatory = and other conservation measures, such as alternate day watering may become = necessary. According to Comstock, "The citizens of Moscow are always ready to do the right thing and I know that they will respond = enthusiastically to our call for their help."

 

Mayor Comstock also stated that city staff = will be working with the Moscow Health and Environment Commission and a = consultant to develop a water conservation program. That program should be developed = over the next several weeks.  Information about the watering restrictions = and other conservation measures may soon be viewed on the City's website www.ci.moscow.id.us and on = cable channel 13.

 

------_=_NextPart_001_01C33F1E.81132470-- From sslund@moscow.com Mon Jun 30 19:11:50 2003 From: sslund@moscow.com (Saundra Lund) Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2003 11:11:50 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] Letter to the Editor: 'A New Adventure Every Day': Area youth learn diversity at Girl Scout day camp Message-ID: <008c01c33f33$140a30c0$6501a8c0@pooh> Dear Editor, It was with mixed feelings that I read Friday's front page story: "'A New Adventure Every Day' - Area youth learn diversity at Girl Scout day camp." I was very pleased to see local Girl Scouts promoting "Girl Scouting -- For Every Girl, Everywhere," a national initiative that's been around since 2001. It certainly sounds like the girls had a wonderful and rich experience. However, I was dismayed that local implementation of this national initiative apparently didn't happen until after an entire bridging Junior troop quit Girl Scouts in protest during the fall of 2002 when reaching the Cadet level because acceptance, tolerance, diversity, and inclusion were not ideas held or practiced by one or more local Girl Scout officials. Rather, what our girls witnessed and experienced was discrimination, exclusion, and the erection of artificial barriers to the participation of differently-abled girls. As is not unusual, the girls' themselves seemed to have no trouble with diversity, acceptance, inclusion, and tolerance. I wish the same could be said for the adult(s), who could have learned some valuable lessons from the girls. A piece of advice: please check carefully to make sure actions and words match up before supporting organizations that espouse ideas like tolerance, acceptance, diversity, and inclusion. On scrutiny, you may be disappointed to find that actual practice doesn’t match publicized principles. I certainly hope this dichotomy no longer exists within local Girl Scouts. My hope and prayer is that the Girl Scout motto "Girl Scouts -- For Every Girl, Everywhere" has truly been incorporated into the awareness of local administration and that no other young girl will ever again be subjected to discriminatory, ignorant, and hurtful words or actions by local Girl Scout officials. Sincerely, Saundra Lund 1220 Highland Dr. Moscow, Idaho 83843 (208) 882-2150 The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good people to do nothing. Edmund Burke From london@moscow.com Mon Jun 30 20:03:58 2003 From: london@moscow.com (Bill London) Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2003 12:03:58 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] Chipman Trail References: <20030628184106.7827.qmail@web11002.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <3F00899E.7179A601@moscow.com> Chipman Trail maintenance--from Moscow to state line is Moscow city parks, in Pullman city is that city park dept, and Whitman County Parks handles the rest BL Ben Twigg wrote: > Does anyone know who is responsible for maintaining > the Chipman Trail? Can local residents volunteer to > help maintain the trail? How does one make comments or > suggestions regarding maintenance of the trail? > > Specifically, I think there are a few intersections on > the trail (where it crosses roads) that could be made > safer by trimming the tall grass near the trail. > > Lest anyone thinks I am complaining, I consider the > trail one of the best developments in this community > in recent years, and I am grateful for the efforts of > those who maintain its condition. > > Please let me know if you have information related to > the questions above. Thank you. > > Ben Twigg > > __________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! > http://sbc.yahoo.com > > _____________________________________________________ > List services made available by First Step Internet, > serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994. > http://www.fsr.net > mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com > ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ From london@moscow.com Mon Jun 30 20:50:51 2003 From: london@moscow.com (Bill London) Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2003 12:50:51 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] fireworks? References: Message-ID: <3F00949B.73AFF61D@moscow.com> I contacted the Chamber to find out for sure, and the answer is Yes..Moscow fireworks on July 4. at UI Kibbie Dome lot Equally interesting is the question of how the fireworks are funded. They cost $10,000. For the last 2 years the city used some of its "free" money from the Hamilton estate for fireworks and will use that source again this year. But perhaps the city got a little worried about its use of the Hamilton money, because the administrators said this was the last year they would dip into the Hamilton account for fireworks. No really, they promised. Now, the Chamber is trying to decide if it is a good idea to keep the fireworks thing going next year. If you care about this issue, you should contact the Chamber 882-1800 BL Mitch Parks wrote: > I've been gone for a couple of weeks and may have missed this in the > mire... > > Are there "grand" Moscow Fireworks this year? Where and when? > > Mitch Parks > Moscow, ID > > _____________________________________________________ > List services made available by First Step Internet, > serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994. > http://www.fsr.net > mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com > ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ From donovanarnold@hotmail.com Mon Jun 30 05:02:52 2003 From: donovanarnold@hotmail.com (Donovan Arnold) Date: Sun, 29 Jun 2003 21:02:52 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] Religious Diversity Education Message-ID:

Dale,

I am really worried about the perception of my intelligence by someone that thinks "E Pluribus Unum" means "In God We Trust"

Thanks!

Donovan J Arnold



 

>From: "Dale Courtney"
>To:
>Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Religious Diversity Education
>Date: Sun, 29 Jun 2003 19:42:53 -0700
>
>Wow, talk about rants.
>
>Hanson is screaming "DIVERSITY" and I comment that our coins have E Pluribus Unum on them and from that you move to "In God We Trust", that Dale thinks the words on our money is some kind of national motto, that I'd be mis-schooling my children if I homeschooled them, that I'm corrupted by the Religious Right, and that I'm a frightening educator.
>
>Donovan, please go take a valium and lie down. If you want to be respected for your arguments, you really must stop ranting and start making sense. This post does you intellectual injustice -- perhaps.
>Best,
>Dale
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Donovan Arnold
> To: thansen@moscow.com ; dale@courtneys.us ; vision2020@moscow.com
> Sent: Sunday, June 29, 2003 16:17
> Subject: RE: [Vision2020] Religious Diversity Education
>
>
> Tom,
>
> Dale was just trying to prove his point about the public educational system not working when he said "Guess we should change the motto on our money: E Pluribus Unum". He was implying that it meant "In God We Trust" and not knowing that it meant .
>
> He would also know that in 1863, US Treasury Secretary Chase approved the present motto, "In God We Trust" on the coin to show that The Union was "on the side of God" against slavery. It was not until the early 1900's that religious protestants pushed to have them placed back on the coins. Theodore Roosevelt, President at the time, was opposed to idea because he believed it was blasphemous to put God's name on something that was a worldly good. "Out of many, one", is the meaning of the Latin words "E Pluribus Unum". It was created as part of the official Seal of the United States. It was created by John Adam and Thomas Jefferson in 1776. The words "Out of many, one" symbolizes how the 13 colonies came together as one.
>
> It was not until 1956, in order to show the communists whose' side God was on, that President Eisenhower signed into law the official motto of the United States being "In God We Trust" instead of "E Pluribus Unum".
>
> So naturally, Dale being the way he is, believed that if "E Pluribus Unum" was the National Motto at one time, and "In God We Trust" being the National Motto later on, he assumed one meant the other.
>
> This is precisely, why so many Americans are against the idea of funding Home School. Clearly, if Dale was home schooling his children he would be teaching them wrong information on such simple and basic information as I learned in 7th grade.
>
> It also proves that Dale has been corrupted by the Religious Right in believing that the forefathers used God in the Constitution and were for the idea of God being the central theme of all America.
>
> What is even more frightening is that Dale is an educator.
>
> Donovan J Arnold
>
>
>
>
>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Tired of spam? Get advanced junk mail protection with MSN 8.

Protect your PC - Click here for McAfee.com VirusScan Online From ted_moffett@hotmail.com Mon Jun 30 21:49:27 2003 From: ted_moffett@hotmail.com (Ted Moffett) Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2003 20:49:27 +0000 Subject: [Vision2020] MSD Pay and Tenure--a reply Message-ID: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_37fd_7b1c_5897 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed All: Donovan's questions that Dale does not want to answer seem relevant to illuminating this debate over public vs private schools. So Dale, why not provide at least some provisional concise answers? On the other hand, for Donovan to admit there may be a waste of certain funds in MSD does not really disprove his argument. There may be many schools, both private and public, where money is not spent wisely. This does not negate the need for the schools or the services and education they provide, nor does it disprove according to some grand political or ethical or spiritual theory that public tax supported schools are inherently wrong. Both of you are exhibiting entrenched polarized stubbornness which lessens the credibility of the arguments both of you are making. Ted >From: "Donovan Arnold" >To: dale@courtneys.us, vision2020@moscow.com >Subject: Re: [Vision2020] MSD Pay and Tenure--a reply >Date: Sun, 29 Jun 2003 22:06:06 -0700 > _________________________________________________________________ MSN 8 with e-mail virus protection service: 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus ------=_NextPart_000_37fd_7b1c_5897 Content-Type: message/rfc822 X-Message-Info: DJg0iSgxerJTLn0I5LJl2gUiqQzsGsgs Received: from mc4-f28.law16.hotmail.com ([65.54.237.163]) by mc4-s2.law16.hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.5600); Sun, 29 Jun 2003 22:08:27 -0700 Received: from whale2.fsr.net ([207.141.26.23]) by mc4-f28.law16.hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.5600); Sun, 29 Jun 2003 22:07:41 -0700 Received: from whale2.fsr.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by whale2.fsr.net (8.12.3/8.12.3) with ESMTP id h5U57FQU052303; Sun, 29 Jun 2003 22:07:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from vision2020-admin@moscow.com) Received: from psmtp.com (exprod5mx79.postini.com [12.158.34.225]) by whale2.fsr.net (8.12.3/8.12.3) with SMTP id h5U56EQU051037 for ; Sun, 29 Jun 2003 22:06:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from donovanarnold@hotmail.com) Received: from source ([207.141.24.20]) by exprod5mx79.postini.com ([12.158.34.245]) with SMTP; Sun, 29 Jun 2003 22:06:07 PDT Received: from hotmail.com (law11-f52.law11.hotmail.com [64.4.17.52]) by fsr.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h5U56BQ49394 for ; Sun, 29 Jun 2003 22:06:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from donovanarnold@hotmail.com) Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Sun, 29 Jun 2003 22:06:07 -0700 Received: from 172.193.158.58 by lw11fd.law11.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Mon, 30 Jun 2003 05:06:06 GMT X-Originating-IP: [172.193.158.58] X-Originating-Email: [donovanarnold@hotmail.com] From: "Donovan Arnold" To: dale@courtneys.us, vision2020@moscow.com Subject: Re: [Vision2020] MSD Pay and Tenure--a reply Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 30 Jun 2003 05:06:07.0237 (UTC) FILETIME=[50403350:01C33EC5] Sender: vision2020-admin@moscow.com Errors-To: vision2020-admin@moscow.com X-BeenThere: vision2020@moscow.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.10 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Moscow/Latah county community discussion list List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Sun, 29 Jun 2003 22:06:06 -0700 Return-Path: vision2020-admin@moscow.com

Dale,

Your refusal to even provide the name of ONE Private School and their budget that offers the same services as MSD is a sure sign of your defeat and a sign you have not done any research to back your claims.

 You were asked:

"Here is the question again: Show a detailed plan how you can cut the school budget and provide students and educators with the same opportunities and services?"

and 

"I know you will say that you already have. And blah blah blah, but not provide one number or the name of one school in the United states that meets these basic standards are children provide."

and You responded: By saying a name, a number: no you responded by saying:

"You admit that we have a problem with the spending, etc, at MSD and I'll lay out the plan.Otherwise, I'll be wasting my breath -- like a doctor telling a patient he has terminal cancer, and the patient is in denial and refusing therapy."

No numbers there Dale, not ONE name of a schools either! More Blah Blah Blah from you. 

PROBLEM 1: Dale is ignoring the question:

PROBLEM 2: Dale is trying to win the argument by getting me to admit he is right BEFORE presenting the evidence. This is like saying, admit the world is not round and I will present the evidence it is FLAT. No Dale, provide the evidence FIRST, then I will admit to you being correct or incorrect. If I admitted that MSD had a Spending Problem, and believed it, their would not be any need to present the evidence would there? Provide the name and budget of a "Private" school that offers the same opportunities to students and educators as the MSD.

PROBLEM 3: FALSE Analogy:

NO, this like a doctor saying to a patient, I haven't done ANY research to back my believe, but you got cancer and I am going to remove a lung and both legs.

PROBLEM 4: Contradiction of words and actions:

"Otherwise, I will be wasting my breath" 

Gee, Dale, you wrote over 25 postings whining about this issue and haven't convinced a soul. Yet, now writing one email with a NAME of the school and BUDGET of the School that provides the same services to students and educators as MSD is wasting breath? I am asking for one word and a number, not 25 postings. Hardly wasting breath.

I have listed the question ten more times below in different font and sizes to be sure that you get the question. Your refusal to even provide the name of ONE Private School and their budget that offers the same services as MSD is a sure sign of your defeat and a sign you have not done any research to back your claims. If you have, then type the name and budget, and I will be proven wrong. But you know, like everyone else on Vision2020, that no private school provides the same services to all students as public students at a lesser cost. Your inability to name one "private" non-publicly funded school to do this is CLEAR evidence you are wrong, wrong, WRONG! And you will continue to make excuses, whine, complain, and show statistics, rather then naming that ONE Private school. And the answer is clear why you do this. Because not ONE Private non-publicly funded school exists in this country that does. One the other hand, excus! es, statistics, whining, and complaints come in endless quantities and shapes. So that is what you use, because that is all you have.

Thanks!

Donovan J Arnold

Show a detailed plan how you can cut the school budget and provide students and educators with the same opportunities and services?"

Show a detailed plan how you can cut the school budget and provide students and educators with the same opportunities and services?"

Show a detailed plan how you can cut the school budget and provide students and educators with the same opportunities and services?"

Show a detailed plan how you can cut the school budget and provide students and educators with the same opportunities and services?"

Show a detailed plan how you can cut the school budget and provide students and educators with the same opportunities and services?"

Show a detailed plan how you can cut the school budget and provide students and educators with the same opportunities and services?"

Show a detailed plan how you can cut the school budget and provide students and educators with the same opportunities and services?"

Show a detailed plan how you can cut the school budget and provide students and educators with the same opportunities and services?"

Show a detailed plan how you can cut the school budget and provide students and educators with the same opportunities and services?"

Show a detailed plan how you can cut the school budget and provide students and educators with the same opportunities and services?"


Help STOP SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* _____________________________________________________ List services made available by First Step Internet, serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994. http://www.fsr.net mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ ------=_NextPart_000_37fd_7b1c_5897-- From johnmoss@moscow.com Mon Jun 30 21:51:06 2003 From: johnmoss@moscow.com (John Moss) Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2003 13:51:06 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] fireworks? References: <3F00949B.73AFF61D@moscow.com> Message-ID: <000c01c33f49$53e75d60$0f188dcf@moonfish> The question of how to fund the fireworks is blazingly obvious. Instate a levy requiring every Moscow citizen to pay $100 in taxes each year to the Moscow Fireworks Fund. I'm not exactly sure of the latest Moscow population numbers, but the sign says 21,000 or so. Multiply that by $100 and you have $2,100,000 for one grand fireworks display. Holy smokes!! We could have one awesome fireworks display every single year! Individually, we could do our own put-put displays, but pass a law--and POW!! We wouldn't just have fireworks for the consenting adults, we wouldn't just have fireworks for the fat bald Republicans, we wouldn't just have fireworks for the disabled, we wouldn't just have fireworks for the financially-privileged--we would have fireworks for ALL!! I apologize--I couldn't resist. Not meaning to cause any sparks. All the best, John Moss ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bill London" To: "Mitch Parks" Cc: Sent: Monday, June 30, 2003 12:50 PM Subject: Re: [Vision2020] fireworks? > I contacted the Chamber to find out for sure, and the answer is > Yes..Moscow fireworks on July 4. at UI Kibbie Dome lot > Equally interesting is the question of how the fireworks are funded. > They cost $10,000. > For the last 2 years the city used some of its "free" money from the > Hamilton estate for fireworks and will use that source again this year. > But perhaps the city got a little worried about its use of the Hamilton > money, because the administrators said this was the last year they would > dip into the Hamilton account for fireworks. > No really, they promised. > Now, the Chamber is trying to decide if it is a good idea to keep the > fireworks thing going next year. If you care about this issue, you > should contact the Chamber 882-1800 > BL > > Mitch Parks wrote: > > > I've been gone for a couple of weeks and may have missed this in the > > mire... > > > > Are there "grand" Moscow Fireworks this year? Where and when? > > > > Mitch Parks > > Moscow, ID > > > > _____________________________________________________ > > List services made available by First Step Internet, > > serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994. > > http://www.fsr.net > > mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com > > ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ > > _____________________________________________________ > List services made available by First Step Internet, > serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994. > http://www.fsr.net > mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com > ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ > From johnbharrell@yahoo.com Mon Jun 30 23:13:48 2003 From: johnbharrell@yahoo.com (John Harrell) Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2003 15:13:48 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Vision2020] Rose Huskey's Misunderstanding & Infatuation with "isms" In-Reply-To: <1f0.c48dbe4.2c318f93@aol.com> Message-ID: <20030630221348.53812.qmail@web13404.mail.yahoo.com> --0-1770980603-1057011228=:53752 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Dear Visionaries, Rose somehow misunderstood or misread my invite. She asks, "[What] Was your point, John.." I thought it was really simple. You picked out Hitler from the group, but didn't address any others. So I was wondering why, and then I thought to be polite I would invite you to address the others also. That is why I invited you to be "inclusive" not "exclusive." Also, what is this thing you have regarding "isms"? Cheers! Here is the email again.... ---------------------------- It is interesting how you just picked out Hitler from that group. Would you like to address the other[s] for us also? In case you have forgot, here they are again: QUOTATION: When an opponent declares, “I will not come over to your side,” I calmly say, “Your child belongs to us already.... What are you? You will pass on. Your descendants, however, now stand in the new camp. In a short time they will know nothing else but this new community.” ATTRIBUTION: Adolf Hitler (1889–1945), German dictator. speech, Nov. 6, 1933. Quoted in William L. Shirer, “Education in the Third Reich,” ch. 8, The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich (1959); speaking about the schools and their indoctrination of the Hilterjugend (Hitler Youth Corps). It was Adolph Hitler who said, "Let me control the textbooks, and I will control the state." Norman Thomas, Socialist and member of the Civil Liberties Union, boldly told the world, "The American people will never knowingly adopt Socialism, but under the name of liberalism, they will adopt every fragment of the Socialist program until one day America will be a Socialist nation without ever knowing how it happened." "Give me your four year olds," said Lenin "and in a generation I will build a Socialist state." Lesbian author Patricia Warren, boldly told the gay and lesbian community, "It is the FIRST fact of civilization that--whoever captures the kids - owns the future." In his book ‘The Science Of Power’, Benjamin Kidd wrote, "Give us the young. -- Give us the young and We will create a new mind and a new Earth in a SINGLE generation." Ross L. Finny, a socialist PhD in one of his books tells us this; "Everything depends on passing out the expert opinions of the social scientists to the masses of the people; the schools are the only adequate agency for this function." Lastly, the American Humanist Association understands the importance of capturing the children – for they have written: "In order to capture this nation, one has to totally remove moral and spiritual values and absolutes from the thinking of the child. The child has to think that there is no standard of right and wrong, that truth is relative, and that diversity is the only absolute to be gained." Cheers! John Harrell DonaldH675@aol.com wrote: Dear Visionaries, John Harrell invited me to comment of a series of quotations regarding social control through the intellectual kidnapping of children. Since I don't endorse or participate in any group that seeks to enforce political or religious lock-step thinking on others I am somewhat at a loss. Was your point, John, that political groups have an agenda? If so, I think we can all agree that this is so. It just seems curious to me that you want to go down that path. You neglected to mention in your litany of "isms" i.e. fascism, communism, socialism, lesbianism, one that is closest to your own heart - theocraticism. (Is that even a word?) It is the case that you belong to a faith community whose members believe that in a perfect world, law and social custom would be based on the Christ Church notion and interpretation of biblical morality. The "community of saints" as opposed to the "community of sinners," (where the rest of us reside), is a self-descriptor used by Christ Church members. Our world views collide, alas, sometimes acrimoniously, because of the state of sin and ignorance you gratuitously assign to others who don't hold the Westminster Confession as the philosophical expression and explanation of the meaning of life. I support public education because I celebrate the richness and possibilities inherent in cultural and intellectual diversity. You support private, religious education because it is central to "protecting" (aka controlling) the social experience and intellectual development of your children. Practically speaking, it appears that you adhere more closely to the agenda of totalitarianism than I do. Let's see, inclusive vs. exclusive, that's not a very difficult choice for me. And of course, I can call the Moscow School District office and find out exactly how many children are provided special education services and accommodations, while in the world of Logos; it seems that some children - even the children of saints - just aren't allowed in the door. Best, Rose Huskey --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! --0-1770980603-1057011228=:53752 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
Dear Visionaries,
 
Rose somehow misunderstood or misread my invite. She asks, "[What] Was your point, John.."
I thought it was really simple. You picked out Hitler from the group, but didn't address
any others. So I was wondering why, and then I thought to be polite I would invite you
to address the others also. That is why I invited you to be "inclusive" not "exclusive."
 
Also, what is this thing you have regarding "isms"?
 
Cheers!
 
Here is the email again....
 
----------------------------
 
It is interesting how you just picked out Hitler from that group.

Would you like to address the other[s] for us also?

In case you have forgot, here they are again:

QUOTATION: When an opponent declares, “I will not come over to your side,” I
calmly say, “Your child belongs to us already.... What are you? You will pass
on. Your descendants, however, now stand in the new camp. In a short time they
will know nothing else but this new community.”

ATTRIBUTION: Adolf Hitler (1889–1945), German dictator. speech, Nov. 6, 1933.
Quoted in William L. Shirer, “Education in the Third Reich,” ch. 8, The Rise
and Fall of the Third Reich (1959); speaking about the schools and their
indoctrination of the Hilterjugend (Hitler Youth Corps).

It was Adolph Hitler who said, "Let me control the textbooks, and I will
control the state."

Norman Thomas, Socialist and member of the Civil Liberties Union, boldly
told the worl! d, "The American people will never knowingly adopt Socialism,
but under the name of liberalism, they will adopt every fragment of the
Socialist program until one day America will be a Socialist nation without
ever knowing how it happened."

"Give me your four year olds," said Lenin "and in a generation I will build
a Socialist state."

Lesbian author Patricia Warren, boldly told the gay and lesbian community,
"It is the FIRST fact of civilization that--whoever captures the kids - owns
the future."

In his book ‘The Science Of Power’, Benjamin Kidd wrote, "Give us the young.
-- Give us the young and We will create a new mind and a new Earth in a SINGLE
generation."

Ross L. Finny, a socialist PhD in one of his books tells us this; "Everything
depends on passing out the expert opinions of the social scientists to the
masses of the people; the schools are the only adequate agency for this function."

Lastly, the Ame! rican Humanist Association understands the importance of
capturing the children – for they have written: "In order to capture this
nation, one has to totally remove moral and spiritual values and absolutes from
the thinking of the child. The child has to think that there is no standard of
right and wrong, that truth is relative, and that diversity is the only absolute
to be gained."

Cheers!
John Harrell



DonaldH675@aol.com wrote:
Dear Visionaries,
John Harrell invited me to comment of a series of quotations regarding social control through the intellectual kidnapping of children.  Since I don't endorse or participate in any group that seeks to enforce political or religious lock-step thinking on others I am somewhat at a loss.  Was your point, John, that political groups have an agenda?  If so, I think we can all agree that this is so.  It just seems curious to me that you want to go down that path.  You neglected to mention in your litany of "isms" i.e. fascism, communism, socialism, lesbianism, one that is closest to your own heart - theocraticism. (Is that even a word?) 
It is the case that you belong to a faith community whose members believe that in a perfect world, law! and social custom would be based on the Christ Church notion and interpretation of biblical morality.  The "community of saints" as opposed to the "community of sinners," (where the rest of us reside), is a self-descriptor used by Christ Church members.  Our world views collide, alas, sometimes acrimoniously, because of the state of sin and ignorance you gratuitously assign to others who don't hold the Westminster Confession as the philosophical expression and explanation of the meaning of life. 
I support public education because I celebrate the richness and possibilities inherent in cultural and intellectual diversity.  You support private, religious education because it is central to "protecting" (aka controlling) the social experience and intellectual development of your children.  Practically speaking, it appears that you adhere more closely to the agenda of totalitarianism than I do.  Let's see, inclusive vs. exclusive, that's not a very ! difficult choice for me. 
And of course, I can call the Moscow School District office and find out exactly how many children are provided special education services and accommodations, while in the world of Logos; it seems that some children - even the children of saints - just aren't allowed in the door.
Best,
Rose Huskey







Do you Yahoo!?
SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! --0-1770980603-1057011228=:53752-- From johnbharrell@yahoo.com Mon Jun 30 23:22:03 2003 From: johnbharrell@yahoo.com (John Harrell) Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2003 15:22:03 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Vision2020] Moscow Water In-Reply-To: <93812436F60FD511A83A0002B3029EFC7314FC@DCFS01> Message-ID: <20030630222203.80194.qmail@web13405.mail.yahoo.com> --0-224246494-1057011723=:79980 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii This press release is confusing. Are they proposing unrestricted irrigation during the midday, when the sun is the hottest and evaporation is the highest? limit outdoor irrigation to between the hours of 6:00 pm and 9:00 am. I must be missing something here. Help? John Harrell Stephanie Kalasz wrote: PRESS RELEASE From: Gary J. Riedner, Moscow City Supervisor, 206 E. 3rd St., Moscow, Idaho 83843, telephone: (208) 883-7006, Fax: (208) 883-7018, e-mail: griedner@moscow.com Date: June 24, 2003 The City of Moscow has implemented the first step in a plan to encourage the public to reduce water use for irrigation in order to avoid the possibility of state mandated water limitations. At a special City council meeting held on June 23, 2003, the Moscow City Council voted unanimously to support water conservation measures to reduce the rate of depletion of the Grand Ronde aquifer, which supplies three-fourths of Moscow's drinking water. The aquifer, which is shared by the University of Idaho, City of Pullman and Washington State University, is dropping approximately one to two feet per year. The first step the Council took was to limit outdoor irrigation to between the hours of 6:00 pm and 9:00 am. This move will reduce the water lost to evaporation and by some estimates, could save up to a million gallons of irrigation water per day. The restriction should commence at 12:01 am, July 1, 2003, however city residents are encouraged to begin the program immediately. According to Mayor Marshall Comstock, compliance to the restriction is voluntary at this time, but if the measures do not save significant amounts of water, then the program will become mandatory and other conservation measures, such as alternate day watering may become necessary. According to Comstock, "The citizens of Moscow are always ready to do the right thing and I know that they will respond enthusiastically to our call for their help." Mayor Comstock also stated that city staff will be working with the Moscow Health and Environment Commission and a consultant to develop a water conservation program. That program should be developed over the next several weeks. Information about the watering restrictions and other conservation measures may soon be viewed on the City's website www.ci.moscow.id.us and on cable channel 13. --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! --0-224246494-1057011723=:79980 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
This press release is confusing.
 
Are they proposing unrestricted irrigation during the midday, when the sun is the hottest
and evaporation is the highest?
 
limit outdoor irrigation to between the hours of 6:00 pm and 9:00 am.
 
I must be missing something here.
 
Help?
 
John Harrell
 
 


Stephanie Kalasz <skalasz@ci.moscow.id.us> wrote:

PRESS RELEASE

 

From:              Gary J. Riedner, Moscow City Supervisor, 206 E. 3rd St., Moscow, Idaho 83843, telephone: (208) 883-7006, Fax: (208) 883-7018, e-mail: griedner@moscow.com

 

Date:               June 24, 2003

 

The City of Moscow has implemented the first step in a plan to encourage the public to reduce water use for irrigation in order to avoid the possibility of state mandated water limitations.

 

At a special City council meeting held on June 23, 2003, the Moscow City Council voted unanimously to support water conservation measures to reduce the rate of depletion of the Grand Ronde aquifer, which supplies three-fourths of Moscow's drinking water. The aquifer, which is shared by the University of Idaho, City of Pullman and Washington State University, is dropping approximately one to two feet per year.

 

The first step the Council took was to limit outdoor irrigation to between the hours of 6:00 pm and 9:00 am. This move will reduce the water lost to evaporation and by some estimates, could save up to a million gallons of irrigation water per day. The restriction should commence at 12:01 am, July 1, 2003, however city residents are encouraged to begin the program immediately.

 

According to Mayor Marshall Comstock, compliance to the restriction is voluntary at this time, but if the measures do not save significant amounts of water, then the program will become mandatory and other conservation measures, such as alternate day watering may become necessary. According to Comstock, "The citizens of Moscow are always ready to do the right thing and I know that they will respond enthusiastically to our call for their help."

 

Mayor Comstock also stated that city staff will be working with the Moscow Health and Environment Commission and a consultant to develop a water conservation program. That program should be developed over the next several weeks.  Information about the watering restrictions and other conservation measures may soon be viewed on the City's website www.ci.moscow.id.us and on cable channel 13.

 

Do you Yahoo!?
SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! --0-224246494-1057011723=:79980-- From skalasz@ci.moscow.id.us Mon Jun 30 23:35:52 2003 From: skalasz@ci.moscow.id.us (Stephanie Kalasz) Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2003 15:35:52 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] Moscow Water Message-ID: <93812436F60FD511A83A0002B3029EFC731503@DCFS01> This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C33F57.F62B66D0 Content-Type: text/plain Sorry for any confusion, the intent is for watering to occur only between the hours of 6:00 p.m. and 9:00 a.m. (the limit being that watering should only occur during those hours). -----Original Message----- From: John Harrell [mailto:johnbharrell@yahoo.com] Sent: Monday, June 30, 2003 3:22 PM To: Stephanie Kalasz; 'vision2020@moscow.com' Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Moscow Water This press release is confusing. Are they proposing unrestricted irrigation during the midday, when the sun is the hottest and evaporation is the highest? limit outdoor irrigation to between the hours of 6:00 pm and 9:00 am. I must be missing something here. Help? John Harrell Stephanie Kalasz wrote: PRESS RELEASE From: Gary J. Riedner, Moscow City Supervisor, 206 E. 3rd St., Moscow, Idaho 83843, telephone: (208) 883-7006, Fax: (208) 883-7018, e-mail: griedner@moscow.com Date: June 24, 2003 The City of Moscow has implemented the first step in a plan to encourage the public to reduce water use for irrigation in order to avoid the possibility of state mandated water limitations. At a special City council meeting held on June 23, 2003, the Moscow City Council voted unanimously to support water conservation measures to reduce the rate of depletion of the Grand Ronde aquifer, which supplies three-fourths of Moscow's drinking water. The aquifer, which is shared by the University of Idaho, City of Pullman and Washington State University, is dropping approximately one to two feet per year. The first step the Council took was to limit outdoor irrigation to between the hours of 6:00 pm and 9:00 am. This move will reduce the water lost to evaporation and by some estimates, could save up to a million gallons of irrigation water per day. The restriction should commence at 12:01 am, July 1, 2003, however city residents are encouraged to begin the program immediately. According to Mayor Marshall Comstock, compliance to the restriction is voluntary at this time, but if the measures do not save significant amounts of water, then the program will become mandatory and other conservation measures, such as alternate day watering may become necessary. According to Comstock, "The citizens of Moscow are always ready to do the right thing and I know that they will respond enthusiastically to our call for their help." Mayor Comstock also stated that city staff will be working with the Moscow Health and Environment Commission and a consultant to develop a water conservation program. That program should be developed over the next several weeks. Information about the watering restrictions and other conservation measures may soon be viewed on the City's website www.ci.moscow.id.us and on cable channel 13. _____ Do you Yahoo!? SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! ------_=_NextPart_001_01C33F57.F62B66D0 Content-Type: text/html Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Sorry for any confusion, the = intent is for watering to occur only between the hours of 6:00 p.m. and = 9:00 a.m. (the limit = being that watering should only occur during those hours).

 

-----Original = Message-----
From: John Harrell [mailto:johnbharrell@yahoo.com]
Sent: = Monday, June 30, 2003 3:22 = PM
To: Stephanie Kalasz; 'vision2020@moscow.com'
Subject: Re: = [Vision2020] Moscow Water

 

This press release is = confusing.

 

Are they proposing unrestricted irrigation = during the midday, when the sun is the hottest

and evaporation is the = highest?

 

limit outdoor irrigation to between the = hours of 6:00 pm and 9:00 am.

 

I must be missing something = here.

 

Help?

 

John Harrell

 

 



Stephanie = Kalasz <skalasz@ci.moscow.id.us> wrote:

PRESS RELEASE

 

From:             = Gary J. Riedner, Moscow City Supervisor, 206 E. 3rd = St., Moscow, Idaho 83843, telephone: (208) 883-7006, Fax: (208) 883-7018, e-mail: = griedner@moscow.com

 

Date:      &nbs= p;        June 24, 2003

 

The City of = Moscow has implemented the first step in a plan to encourage the public to = reduce water use for irrigation in order to avoid the possibility of state = mandated water limitations.

 

At a special = City council meeting held on June 23, 2003, the Moscow City Council = voted unanimously to support water conservation measures to reduce the rate = of depletion of the Grand Ronde aquifer, which supplies three-fourths of = Moscow's drinking water. The aquifer, which is shared by the University of = Idaho, City of Pullman and Washington State University, is dropping approximately = one to two feet per year.

 

The first step = the Council took was to limit outdoor irrigation to between the hours of = 6:00 pm and 9:00 am. This move will reduce the water lost = to evaporation and by some estimates, could save up to a million gallons of irrigation water per = day. The restriction should commence at 12:01 am, July 1, 2003, however city = residents are encouraged to begin the program immediately.

 

According to = Mayor Marshall Comstock, compliance to the restriction is voluntary at this time, but = if the measures do not save significant amounts of water, then the program = will become mandatory and other conservation measures, such as alternate day = watering may become necessary. According to Comstock, "The citizens of = Moscow are always ready to do the right thing and I know that they will = respond enthusiastically to our call for their help."

 

Mayor Comstock = also stated that city staff will be working with the Moscow Health and Environment Commission and a consultant to develop a water conservation program. = That program should be developed over the next several weeks. =  Information about the watering restrictions and other conservation measures may = soon be viewed on the City's website www.ci.moscow.id.us and on cable channel 13.

 

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------_=_NextPart_001_01C33F57.F62B66D0-- From melyndah@wsu.edu Mon Jun 30 23:39:43 2003 From: melyndah@wsu.edu (Melynda Huskey) Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2003 15:39:43 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] Rose Huskey's Misunderstanding & Infatuation with "isms" In-Reply-To: <20030630221348.53812.qmail@web13404.mail.yahoo.com> References: <1f0.c48dbe4.2c318f93@aol.com> Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.0.20030630152640.03229bc8@mail.wsu.edu> I hesitate to weigh in, lest anyone think Rose can't manage her own fights (although a moment's reflection reassures me on that point . . .), but I think it's worth noting that the entire article from which John Harrell quotes (without attribution) can be found at http://www.restoringamerica.org/archive/larson/future_of_2nd_amend.html with many more references to wicked people taking over children's minds, but without any references to plagiarism. Melynda Huskey From lukenieuwsma@softhome.net Mon Jun 30 03:23:53 2003 From: lukenieuwsma@softhome.net (Luke) Date: Sun, 29 Jun 2003 19:23:53 -0700 Subject: [Vision2020] Religious Diversity Education References: Message-ID: <058201c33f74$9d2acd10$2f00a8c0@MOBILELUKE> Mr. Moffet: > Again, you adopt an extreme interpretation of how much we all must think and > act the same before chaos engulfs us. It already has engulfed us. Look at the courts, look at politics. The world, the US, Idaho, none of it is peaceful. Controversy wracks us continually. > What you are saying is truly frightening in the stereotyping and > oversimplifications you make of complex issues! If you can't see that this > sort of extreme thinking is what leads to wars, then you need religious > diversity education desperately. I never said exclusive thinking doesn't lead to wars. But I can see something quite clearly; you are intolerant. You don't tolerate anyone who thinks they are really right; you claim that your view of life and religion is the only correct one, and that I should adopt your position. > Remember my comments on the rules of basketball differing and being changed > yet the game is still played according to rules with people enjoying the > sport? How can the NBA and the NCAA have differing rules yet both leagues > play in an organized manner? They don't wage battles to force one league to > play with the same rules as the other league. Hey, this basketball > metaphor is your creation, so if the reality of how basketball is played > does not fit your worldview, you should have picked a different metaphor. Well then, to return to that metaphor, you couldn't stick NBA players and NCAA players on the same court, tell them to all follow their particular rules, and have a good game. The result would be truly chaotic. > So why can't the Islamic and Christian communities each have their own > religious "league" and play their game, and leave the other league alone? Because we're all on the same playing court in the same game. > stereotyping at work. But there are differences of opinion that are > debated and argued and a compromise is reached. Democracy is not a pretty > and efficient machine, but it is constructed here in the USA in theory to > prevent any one group from gaining total control of our government or > society. Actually, this nation was constructed as a republic, not a democracy. Look at the history. Look at the pledge. "I pledge allegiance to the flag, and to the Republic for which it stands..." > It appears from your comments that you do not respect the principles of > democracy, you want us to all be singing your tune, and any disagreement on > religion or ethics will be met with a hysteria based on a fear of chaos and > disorder. Well, it seems pretty clear to me that this is indeed what we have in the world. > BTW, I know very well the world is not all fine and dandy, and those with > rigid irrational views of how we all should think and act the same, are a > large part of the reason. By your own logic, you are one of them. You deny everyone who thinks that their religion is the right one (which is 99% of the world), and yet you claim that your understanding is the right one. You see, realistically there can only be one. You're in this with us. Have a good day, Luke Nieuwsma