[Vision2020] Re: Bible in school. Was Church and state
Benjamin Nieuwsma
Brnieuwsma@softhome.net
Fri, 25 Jul 2003 22:14:30 -0700
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Dear Sir et altera,
Please consider Luke 16:19-31
Gratias Ago!
Benjamin
----- Original Message -----=20
From: Thomas Hansen=20
To: 'Joshua Nieuwsma' ; vision=20
Sent: Friday, July 25, 2003 9:26 AM
Subject: RE: [Vision2020] Re: Bible in school. Was Church and state
Do we file this under "self-righteousness" or basic "arrogance"?
Tom
-----Original Message-----
From: Joshua Nieuwsma [mailto:joshuahendrik@yahoo.com]
Sent: Friday, July 25, 2003 9:21 AM
To: vision
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Re: Bible in school. Was Church and state
Mr. Nielsen,
even if I gave you an "official" divine definition of God's word, =
you wouldn't believe it. So why ask for one? With all due respect, your =
rational mind would try to find some flaw with it. Even if God was to =
appear before you and declare that the 66 books of the Bible are His =
Word and that He has preserved them throughout history for His Church, =
you would seek to find some reason to discredit His appearance. As =
Scrooge said: You might be perhaps a bit of bad beef, or a piece of =
underdone potato. No, there's more of gravy than the grave about you. =
Humbug I tell you! Humbug! I completely doubt that you would accept a =
voice from heaven saying "this is my son, hear him". Could you have =
conquered in the sign of the cross like Constantine did? With respect, I =
think you would be one of those dwarves in The Last Battle who =
stubbornly refused to believe they had gone through the stable door into =
paradise. And so to them paradise was a dank, dark, smelly, muddy, =
straw-strewn little shed. And yet all around them was green grass, trees =
with perfect fruit, blue skies, pure streams of water, and next to them =
stood the King Himself.=20
It is impossible to have "objective" truth according to man. Science =
is an inductive discipline, it is not deductive. It cannot prove =
anything. Human logic is based upon our own concepts and ideas. Why =
should I believe your logic over mine?=20
And if the Bible indeed is not worthy of a single drop of blood in =
its defense, let alone blood spilled in the offense against the gates of =
Hell, what would you defend with your life, Mr. Nielsen? What is =
important enough to you to fight for? Daughter? Mother? Friend? House? =
Church? Nation? Why are any of those important? Who says they are? By =
what standard do you defend anything?=20
The Bible shouldn't be in the public school because the Bible is =
truth, and truth has been denied in most every government school.
have a good day,
Joshua Nieuwsma
Ralph Nielsen <nielsen@uidaho.edu> wrote:
> From: Joshua Nieuwsma=20
> Date: Thu Jul 24, 2003 1:47:12 PM US/Pacific
> To: vision=20
> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Church and State
>
>
> I for one don't want to see a bible class taught alongside =
mormonism,=20
> islam, hinduism, buddhism, and any other -'isms. Why set the =
Word of=20
> God equal with the words of confused man? Take the Bible out of =
the=20
> public schools completely! It's about time the goals of public=20
> education were consistent with their practices. And while we're =
at it,=20
> kick the Christian children out, too. Their parents should have=20
> have pulled them out a long time ago. It's safer outside on the=20
> highway than in the government school classroom.=20
> =20
> Allow me also! to take Mr. Moffett's statement about religion as =
an=20
> integral part of some classes and point out that it is =
impossible for=20
> any class or "subject" (though the idea of "subjects" is a bad =
one=20
> anyhow. It's not how the mind works, in my opinion) to be taught =
with=20
> direct foundation in God's Holy Word.
> =20
> Mr. Moffett, your ecumenism of having every religion in a class =
taught=20
> about seems merely a grand utopia. Can you think of any schools =
that=20
> have successfully implemented such a plan anywhere in the world, =
> without strife and division, or an undue emphasis of one =
religion over=20
> another?
> =20
> cheers,
> =20
> Joshua N.
>
Dear Joshua:
First of all, a lesson in grammar. Mormonism, Islam, Hinduism, =
etc.=20
are proper nouns. They require a capital letter whether you like =
them=20
or not. The same is true of the Bible, which is under discussion =
he! re.=20
It is a proper noun, not a generic term.
Although many religions claim they have the true Word of God, none =
of=20
them have any objective proof. Religious warfare has been around =
for=20
centuries and is still with us today. A few days ago I asked (your =
brother?) Luke for an official divine definition of exactly what=20
constitutes "God's Holy Word, the Bible." We are still waiting. =
The=20
reason is that all holy books have been written and compiled by =
human=20
beings, usually men.
I am personally well acquainted with the Bible. I have a couple of =
dozen different translations, languages, and versions on my =
shelves. I=20
also have copies of various other allegedly divine books. Once you =
realize that they are all of entirely human origin, you soon feel =
that=20
none of them is worth a single drop of blood.
Go in peace.
Ralph Nielsen
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<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Dear Sir et altera,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Please consider Luke =
16:19-31</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Gratias Ago!</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Benjamin</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr=20
style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV=20
style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =
black"><B>From:</B>=20
<A title=3Dtomh@uidaho.edu href=3D"mailto:tomh@uidaho.edu">Thomas =
Hansen</A>=20
</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A =
title=3Djoshuahendrik@yahoo.com=20
href=3D"mailto:joshuahendrik@yahoo.com">'Joshua Nieuwsma'</A> ; <A=20
title=3Dvision2020@moscow.com =
href=3D"mailto:vision2020@moscow.com">vision</A>=20
</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Friday, July 25, 2003 =
9:26 AM</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> RE: [Vision2020] Re: =
Bible in=20
school. Was Church and state</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D676122516-25072003><FONT face=3DArial =
color=3D#0000ff size=3D2>Do=20
we file this under "self-righteousness" or basic=20
"arrogance"?</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D676122516-25072003><FONT face=3DArial =
color=3D#0000ff=20
size=3D2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D676122516-25072003><FONT face=3DArial =
color=3D#0000ff=20
size=3D2>Tom</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE>
<DIV class=3DOutlookMessageHeader dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><FONT =
face=3DTahoma=20
size=3D2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B> Joshua Nieuwsma=20
[mailto:joshuahendrik@yahoo.com]<BR><B>Sent:</B> Friday, July 25, =
2003 9:21=20
AM<BR><B>To:</B> vision<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: [Vision2020] Re: =
Bible in=20
school. Was Church and state<BR><BR></FONT></DIV>
<DIV>Mr. Nielsen,</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>even if I gave you an "official" divine definition of God's =
word, you=20
wouldn't believe it. So why ask for one? With all due respect, your =
rational=20
mind would try to find some flaw with it. Even if God was to appear =
before=20
you and declare that the 66 books of the Bible are His Word and that =
He has=20
preserved them throughout history for His Church, you would seek to =
find=20
some reason to discredit His appearance. As Scrooge said: <EM>You =
might be=20
perhaps a bit of bad beef, or a piece of underdone potato. No, =
there's more=20
of gravy than the grave about you. Humbug I tell you! Humbug! </EM>I =
completely doubt that you would accept a voice from heaven saying =
"this is=20
my son, hear him". Could you have conquered in the sign of the cross =
like=20
Constantine did? With respect, I think you would be one of those =
dwarves in=20
<EM>The Last Battle</EM> who stubbornly refused to believe they had =
gone=20
through the stable door into paradise. And so to them paradise was a =
dank,=20
dark, smelly, muddy, straw-strewn little shed. And yet all around =
them was=20
green grass, trees with perfect fruit, blue skies, pure streams of =
water,=20
and next to them stood the King Himself. </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>It is impossible to have "objective" truth according to man. =
Science is=20
an inductive discipline, it is not deductive. It cannot =
<EM>prove</EM>=20
anything. Human logic is based upon our own concepts and=20
ideas. Why should I believe your logic over mine? </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>And if the Bible indeed is not worthy of a single drop of =
blood in=20
its defense, let alone blood spilled in the offense against the =
gates of=20
Hell, what would you defend with your life, Mr. Nielsen? What is =
important=20
enough to you to fight for? Daughter? Mother? Friend? House? Church? =
Nation? Why are any of those important? Who says they are? By =
what=20
standard do you defend anything? </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>The Bible shouldn't be in the public school because the Bible =
is truth,=20
and truth has been denied in most every government =
school.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>have a good day,</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Joshua Nieuwsma</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><BR><B><I>Ralph Nielsen <nielsen@uidaho.edu></I></B> =
wrote:</DIV>
<DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #1010ff =
2px solid; WIDTH: 100%">>=20
From: Joshua Nieuwsma <JOSHUAHENDRIK@YAHOO.COM><BR>> Date: Thu =
Jul 24,=20
2003 1:47:12 PM US/Pacific<BR>> To: vision=20
<VISION2020@MOSCOW.COM><BR>> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Church =
and=20
State<BR>><BR>><BR>> I for one don't want to see a bible =
class=20
taught alongside mormonism, <BR>> islam, hinduism, buddhism, =
and any=20
other -'isms. Why set the Word of <BR>> God equal with the =
words of=20
confused man? Take the Bible out of the <BR>> public =
schools=20
completely! It's about time the goals of public <BR>>=20
education were consistent with their practices. And while =
we're at=20
it, <BR>> kick the Christian children out, too. Their =
parents=20
should have <BR>> have pulled them out a long =
time ago.=20
It's safer outside on the <BR>> highway than in the government =
school=20
classroom. <BR>> <SNIP> <BR>> Allow me also! to =
take Mr.=20
Moffett's statement about religion as an <BR>> integral part of =
some=20
classes and point out that it is impossible for <BR>> any =
class or=20
"subject" (though the idea of "subjects" is a bad one <BR>> =
anyhow.=20
It's not how the mind works, in my opinion) to be taught with =
<BR>>=20
direct foundation in God's Holy Word.<BR>> <BR>> Mr. =
Moffett,=20
your ecumenism of having every religion in a class taught <BR>> =
about=20
seems merely a grand utopia. Can you think of any schools =
that=20
<BR>> have successfully implemented such a plan anywhere in the =
world,=20
<BR>> without strife and division, or an undue emphasis of one =
religion=20
over <BR>> another?<BR>> <BR>> cheers,<BR>>=20
<BR>> Joshua N.<BR>><BR><BR>Dear Joshua:<BR>First of =
all, a=20
lesson in grammar. Mormonism, Islam, Hinduism, etc. <BR>are proper =
nouns.=20
They require a capital letter whether you like them <BR>or not. =
The same=20
is true of the Bible, which is under discussion he! re. <BR>It is =
a proper=20
noun, not a generic term.<BR>Although many religions claim they =
have the=20
true Word of God, none of <BR>them have any objective proof. =
Religious=20
warfare has been around for <BR>centuries and is still with us =
today. A=20
few days ago I asked (your <BR>brother?) Luke for an official =
divine=20
definition of exactly what <BR>constitutes "God's Holy Word, the =
Bible."=20
We are still waiting. The <BR>reason is that all holy books have =
been=20
written and compiled by human <BR>beings, usually men.<BR>I am =
personally=20
well acquainted with the Bible. I have a couple of <BR>dozen =
different=20
translations, languages, and versions on my shelves. I <BR>also =
have=20
copies of various other allegedly divine books. Once you =
<BR>realize that=20
they are all of entirely human origin, you soon feel that <BR>none =
of them=20
is worth a single drop of blood.<BR>Go in peace.<BR>Ralph=20
Nielsen</BLOCKQUOTE></DIV>
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