[Vision2020] Palouse Water
Dale Courtney
dale@courtneys.us
Sun, 20 Jul 2003 21:48:44 -0700
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Bruce,
=20
I appreciate the tenor of your post as well as your challenges.=20
=20
First, I would really like to see the list of agreements that Moscow =
made
with the State; and what the agreed amounts (and increases) are. Can =
someone
please point me to those? That's not been presented so far, and I've =
asked;
everything has been nebulous.
=20
Second, I would like to know where Prof. Elsa Kirsten Peters got her =
data
about the upper aquifer. Clearly, an instructor at geology at WSU should
know what data she is talking about. She points out that "The water =
levels
near Moscow-Pullman city wells in the lower aquifer are dropping. That
statement, however, does not imply that the water levels farther away =
are
dropping (it's a huge aquifer) nor does it imply that we "will run out" =
of
water in the lower aquifer." I would appreciate hearing a response from =
a
geologist concerning her sentiments in the editorial from 17 July.
=20
Finally, my general wariness comes from knee-jerk reactions as opposed =
to
well thought out and meticulously planned solutions. It appears to me =
that
what is being done is taking a no-growth approach to the problem. Bill
London well articulated that no-growth "solution" in his post to =
vision2020
(suggesting a housing moratorium) recently. I appreciate his =
(unintentional)
desire to raise all the property values in Moscow (since that's what =
housing
moratoriums do), but that does not promote growth -- something that I
thought MCA explicitly wanted. Perhaps I misunderstood what their goal =
was?=20
=20
Still scratching my head,
Dale
-----Original Message-----
From: vision2020-admin@moscow.com [mailto:vision2020-admin@moscow.com] =
On
Behalf Of Bruce and Jean Livingston
Sent: Sunday, 20 July, 2003 21:07
To: vision2020@moscow.com
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Palouse Water
Dale said: "if the overall amount of water available to us is =
relatively
constant, then the draconian measures that the MCA is calling for are
unnecessary." This statement suffers from several obvious flaws that =
are
not typical of Dale's usual arguments. =20
=20
First, it grossly exaggerates the "draconian" measures being requested =
by
numerous groups, not only the Moscow Civic Association, when in fact, =
all
that is being requested is that the City of Moscow live up to its prior
agreement about reasonably limiting its water usage along with the other
governmental entities and citizens of the Palouse, those who use the =
water
at both universities and in Moscow and Pullman. The Moscow Civic
Association and various interested parties who live here on the Palouse
requested that the City stick to its prior agreement and limit pumping =
from
the aquifer to previously agreed amounts (that included INCREASES over =
time,
as I understand it). We are asking people to conserve water as a =
precious
scarce resource while we study and try to understand the extent of the =
water
resource that we are undeniably MINING. The "draconian" measures that =
were
being advocated by various groups were to seek voluntary cooperation by =
the
City -- to live up to its prior commitments, rather than enforce state =
law
and bring in state agencies to monitor and possibly control water usage.
What was asked by the citizens concerned about Palouse water was that =
the
City stop wasting water and encourage conservation of an undeniably =
scarce
resource.
=20
That leads me to my second beef with Dale's recent posting. He is a =
bright
man and not one to argue from a false premise. He knows better than =
that,
but his latest post, despite the opportunity to review the PBAC site, =
still
suffers from the same flaw as his original question.
=20
Dale, you state that "the overall amount of water available to us is
relatively constant," when the water site that you checked (and rely =
upon in
your post) clearly indicates otherwise. The upper aquifer, aside from =
its
issues regarding poor quality water (i.e., minerals, pesticides and
hebicides), is not offsetting the losses from the deep, purer, cleaner
aquifer water. You acknowledge that PBAC data shows the upper aquifer =
is
the same as it was in 1977. The same. The lower aquifer is dropping =
1-2
feet per year. Thus, the "overall amount of water available to us" (not =
to
mention water of high quality) is NOT constant. It is dropping 1-2 feet =
per
year. =20
=20
Study of the available water sources and conservation efforts during the
study period is a reasonable and prudent effort. I applaud your
conservation efforts, Dale. I encourage all Palouse residnets to do the
same while we study the water situation and attempt to stem the loss of =
a
precious resource whose quantity is unknown. =20
=20
Bruce Livingston
=20
----- Original Message -----=20
From: Dale Courtney <mailto:dale@courtneys.us> =20
To: vision2020@moscow.com=20
Sent: Sunday, July 20, 2003 8:43 AM
Subject: RE: [Vision2020] Palouse Water
Dianne,
=20
Thanks again for the link to the report.=20
=20
For those who would like to find the 2000 annual report directly without
reading thru the entire site, it's at
http://www.webs.uidaho.edu/pbac/pubs/00report.pdf.=20
=20
The page of interest is page 15. FWIW, the upper (Wanapum) aquifer (as =
per
measurements from Well #2) is at the exact same level as it was in 1977. =
It
has had some significant increases and decreases, but overall the level =
is
what it was at 26 years ago. It would be interesting to see what the =
data
for 2000-2003 would show for Well #2.=20
=20
>From page 14 of the same report, there can be little doubt that the =
Grande
Ronde aquifer has been falling 1-1.5 feet per year. No one disputes =
that.=20
=20
My question remains, however -- if the overall amount of water available =
to
us is relatively constant, then the draconian measures that the MCA is
calling for are unnecessary.=20
Best,
Dale
-----Original Message-----
From: vision2020-admin@moscow.com [mailto:vision2020-admin@moscow.com] =
On
Behalf Of French
Sent: Saturday, 19 July, 2003 18:49
To: vision2020@moscow.com
Cc: dale@courtneys.us; london@moscow.com
Subject: [Vision2020] Palouse Water
For those wishing to review water levels in the shallower Wanapum =
aquifer
(no they haven't increased steadily over the past 42 years) and any =
other
facts about our current water supply, may I direct you to the Palouse =
Basin
Water Committee (PBAC) web site at www.uidaho.edu/pbac If a concerned
citizen were to open and review the 2000 Annual Report, that citizen =
would
find a wealth of information including a graph of water levels in the
Wanapum aquifer. The 2001 Annual Report is also available, but was =
largely
based on the 2000 report and contains fewer charts and graphs. Some of =
us
are anxiously awaiting the 2002 Annual report and the return to timely
updates on the PBAC web site, both of which are on the foreseeable =
horizon.
=20
Dianne French=20
Palouse Water Conservation Network
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<DIV><SPAN class=3D235033404-21072003><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#800000 =
size=3D2>Bruce,</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D235033404-21072003><EM><FONT face=3DArial =
color=3D#800000=20
size=3D2></FONT></EM></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D235033404-21072003><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#800000 =
size=3D2>I=20
appreciate the tenor of your post as well as your challenges.=20
</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D235033404-21072003><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#800000 =
size=3D2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D235033404-21072003><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#800000 =
size=3D2>First,=20
I would really like to see the list of agreements that Moscow made with =
the=20
State; and what the agreed amounts (and increases) are. Can someone =
please point=20
me to those? That's not been presented so far, and I've asked; =
everything has=20
been nebulous.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D235033404-21072003><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#800000 =
size=3D2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#800000 size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D235033404-21072003>Second, I would like to know where Prof. Elsa =
Kirsten=20
Peters got her data about the upper aquifer. Clearly, an instructor at =
geology=20
at WSU should know what data she is talking =
about. S</SPAN></FONT><FONT=20
face=3DArial color=3D#800000 size=3D2><SPAN =
class=3D235033404-21072003>he points out=20
that <FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D3>"<FONT color=3D#0000ff>The =
water levels=20
near Moscow-Pullman city wells in the lower aquifer are dropping. That=20
statement, however, does not imply that the water levels farther away =
are=20
dropping (it's a huge aquifer) nor does it imply that we "will run out" =
of water=20
in the lower aquifer.</FONT>" <SPAN class=3D235033404-21072003><FONT =
face=3DArial=20
size=3D2>I would appreciate hearing a response from a geologist =
concerning her=20
sentiments in the editorial from 17=20
July.</FONT></SPAN></FONT></SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#800000><SPAN=20
class=3D235033404-21072003></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#800000><SPAN class=3D235033404-21072003>Finally, my =
general=20
wariness comes from knee-jerk reactions as opposed to well thought out =
and=20
meticulously planned solutions. It appears to me that what is being =
done is=20
taking a no-growth approach to the problem. Bill London well articulated =
that=20
no-growth "solution" in his post to vision2020 (suggesting a housing =
moratorium)=20
recently. I appreciate his (unintentional) desire to raise all the =
property=20
values in Moscow (since that's what housing moratoriums do), but that =
does not=20
promote growth -- something that I thought MCA explicitly wanted. =
Perhaps I=20
misunderstood what their goal was? </SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#800000><SPAN=20
class=3D235033404-21072003></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#800000><SPAN class=3D235033404-21072003>Still =
scratching my=20
head,</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#800000><FONT face=3D"Vladimir Script"=20
size=3D5>Dale</FONT></FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr=20
style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #800000 2px =
solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV class=3DOutlookMessageHeader lang=3Den-us dir=3Dltr =
align=3Dleft><FONT=20
face=3DTahoma size=3D2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B>=20
vision2020-admin@moscow.com [mailto:vision2020-admin@moscow.com] <B>On =
Behalf=20
Of </B>Bruce and Jean Livingston<BR><B>Sent:</B> Sunday, 20 July, 2003 =
21:07<BR><B>To:</B> vision2020@moscow.com<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: =
[Vision2020]=20
Palouse Water<BR><BR></FONT></DIV>
<DIV>Dale said: "<FONT face=3DArial color=3D#800000 size=3D2>if =
the overall=20
amount of water available to us is relatively constant, then the =
draconian=20
measures that the MCA is calling for are unnecessary." <FONT=20
face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D3> <FONT color=3D#000000>This =
statement=20
suffers from several obvious flaws that are not typical =
of Dale's=20
usual arguments. </FONT></FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#800000 size=3D2><FONT face=3D"Times =
New Roman"=20
size=3D3><FONT color=3D#000000></FONT></FONT></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#800000 size=3D2><FONT face=3D"Times =
New Roman"=20
size=3D3><FONT color=3D#000000>First, it grossly exaggerates the =
"draconian"=20
measures being requested by numerous groups, not only the Moscow Civic =
Association, when in fact, all that is being requested is =
that the=20
City of Moscow live up to its prior agreement about=20
reasonably limiting its water usage along with the other=20
governmental entities and citizens of the Palouse, those who use the =
water at=20
both universities and in Moscow and Pullman. The Moscow Civic=20
Association and various interested parties who live here on the =
Palouse=20
requested that the City stick to its prior agreement and limit pumping =
from=20
the aquifer to previously agreed amounts (that included INCREASES =
over=20
time, as I understand it). We are asking people to conserve =
water as a=20
precious scarce resource while we study and try to understand the =
extent of=20
the water resource that we are undeniably MINING. The =
"draconian"=20
measures that were being advocated by various groups were to seek =
voluntary=20
cooperation by the City -- to live up to its prior commitments, rather =
than=20
enforce state law and bring in state agencies to monitor and =
possibly control water usage. What was asked by the citizens =
concerned=20
about Palouse water was that the City stop wasting water and encourage =
conservation of an undeniably scarce =
resource.</FONT></FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#800000 size=3D2><FONT face=3D"Times =
New Roman"=20
size=3D3><FONT color=3D#000000></FONT></FONT></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#800000 size=3D2><FONT face=3D"Times =
New Roman"=20
size=3D3><FONT color=3D#000000>That leads me to my second beef with =
Dale's recent=20
posting. He is a bright man and not one to argue from a =
false=20
premise. He knows better than that, but his latest post, despite =
the=20
opportunity to review the PBAC site, still suffers from the same flaw =
as his=20
original question.</FONT></FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#800000 size=3D2><FONT face=3D"Times =
New Roman"=20
size=3D3><FONT color=3D#000000></FONT></FONT></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#800000 size=3D2><FONT face=3D"Times =
New Roman"=20
size=3D3><FONT color=3D#000000>Dale, you state that "</FONT><FONT =
face=3DArial=20
color=3D#800000 size=3D2>the overall amount of water available to us =
is relatively=20
constant,"<FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" color=3D#000000 size=3D3> =
when the water=20
site that you checked (and rely upon in your post) clearly indicates=20
otherwise. The upper aquifer, aside from its issues regarding =
poor=20
quality water (i.e., minerals, pesticides and hebicides), is not =
offsetting=20
the losses from the deep, purer, cleaner aquifer water. You =
acknowledge that PBAC data shows the upper aquifer is the same as it =
was in=20
1977. The same. The lower aquifer is dropping 1-2 feet per =
year. Thus, the "overall amount of water available to us" (not =
to=20
mention water of high quality) is NOT constant. It is =
dropping 1-2=20
feet per year. </FONT></FONT></FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#800000 size=3D2><FONT face=3D"Times =
New Roman"=20
size=3D3><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#800000 size=3D2><FONT =
face=3D"Times New Roman"=20
color=3D#000000 size=3D3></FONT></FONT></FONT></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#800000 size=3D2><FONT face=3D"Times =
New Roman"=20
size=3D3><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#800000 size=3D2><FONT =
face=3D"Times New Roman"=20
color=3D#000000 size=3D3>Study of the available water sources and =
conservation=20
efforts during the study period is a reasonable and prudent =
effort. I=20
applaud your conservation efforts, Dale. I encourage all Palouse =
residnets to do the same while we study the water situation and =
attempt to=20
stem the loss of a precious resource whose quantity is unknown. =20
</FONT></FONT></FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Bruce Livingston</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr=20
style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV=20
style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =
black"><B>From:</B>=20
<A title=3Ddale@courtneys.us href=3D"mailto:dale@courtneys.us">Dale =
Courtney</A>=20
</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A =
title=3Dvision2020@moscow.com=20
href=3D"mailto:vision2020@moscow.com">vision2020@moscow.com</A> =
</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Sunday, July 20, 2003 =
8:43=20
AM</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> RE: [Vision2020] =
Palouse=20
Water</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D604303515-20072003><FONT face=3DArial =
color=3D#800000=20
size=3D2>Dianne,</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D604303515-20072003><FONT face=3DArial =
color=3D#800000=20
size=3D2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D604303515-20072003><FONT face=3DArial =
color=3D#800000=20
size=3D2>Thanks again for the link to the report. =
</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D604303515-20072003><FONT face=3DArial =
color=3D#800000=20
size=3D2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D604303515-20072003><FONT face=3DArial =
color=3D#800000=20
size=3D2>For those who would like to find the 2000 annual report =
directly=20
without reading thru the entire site, it's at <A=20
=
href=3D"http://www.webs.uidaho.edu/pbac/pubs/00report.pdf">http://www.web=
s.uidaho.edu/pbac/pubs/00report.pdf</A>.=20
</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D604303515-20072003><FONT face=3DArial =
color=3D#800000=20
size=3D2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D604303515-20072003><FONT face=3DArial =
color=3D#800000=20
size=3D2>The page of interest is page 15. </FONT></SPAN><SPAN=20
class=3D604303515-20072003><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#800000 =
size=3D2>FWIW, the=20
upper (Wanapum) aquifer (as per measurements from Well #2) is at the =
<U>exact</U> same level as it was in 1977. It has had some =
significant=20
increases and decreases, but overall the level is what it was at 26 =
years=20
ago. It would be interesting to see what the data for 2000-2003 =
would show=20
for Well #2. </FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#800000 size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D604303515-20072003><FONT face=3DArial =
color=3D#800000=20
size=3D2>From page 14 of the same report, there can be little doubt =
that the=20
Grande Ronde aquifer has been falling 1-1.5 feet per year. No one =
disputes=20
that. </FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D604303515-20072003><FONT face=3DArial =
color=3D#800000=20
size=3D2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D604303515-20072003><FONT face=3DArial =
color=3D#800000 size=3D2>My=20
question remains, however -- if the overall amount of water =
available to us=20
is relatively constant, then the draconian measures that the MCA is =
calling=20
for are unnecessary. </FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV align=3Dleft><FONT color=3D#800000><FONT size=3D2><FONT=20
face=3DArial>Best,</FONT><BR></FONT><FONT face=3D"Vladimir Script"=20
size=3D5>Dale</FONT></FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr=20
style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #800000 =
2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV class=3DOutlookMessageHeader lang=3Den-us dir=3Dltr =
align=3Dleft><FONT=20
face=3DTahoma size=3D2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B>=20
vision2020-admin@moscow.com [mailto:vision2020-admin@moscow.com] =
<B>On=20
Behalf Of </B>French<BR><B>Sent:</B> Saturday, 19 July, 2003=20
18:49<BR><B>To:</B> vision2020@moscow.com<BR><B>Cc:</B> =
dale@courtneys.us;=20
london@moscow.com<BR><B>Subject:</B> [Vision2020] Palouse=20
Water<BR><BR></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>For those wishing to review water =
levels in=20
the shallower Wanapum aquifer (no they haven't increased steadily =
over the=20
past 42 years) and any other facts about our current water supply, =
may I=20
direct you to the Palouse Basin Water Committee (PBAC) web site at =
<A=20
href=3D"http://www.uidaho.edu/pbac">www.uidaho.edu/pbac</A> =
If a=20
concerned citizen were to open and review the 2000 Annual =
Report,=20
that citizen would find a wealth of information including a graph =
of water=20
levels in the Wanapum aquifer. The 2001 Annual Report is =
also=20
available, but was largely based on the 2000 report and=20
contains fewer charts and graphs. Some of us are =
anxiously=20
awaiting the 2002 Annual report and the return to timely updates =
on the=20
PBAC web site, both of which are on the foreseeable =
horizon.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Dianne French</FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Palouse Water Conservation=20
=
Network</FONT></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>=
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