[Vision2020] Religious Diversity Education

[Ted Moffett]

Ted wrote:

> > You are not answering the questions posed in this dilemma.  If your
>thinking
> > is flawed and limited, how can you be certain you understand God's 
>truths
> > correctly?
>

Luke answered:

>     How hard are the 10 commandments to understand? "Do not covet."
>"Do not commit adultery."  "Do not steal." Hmm, I wonder what those mean?
>Extremely confusing!
>

Ted answers:

Do you support the death penalty?  The commandment "Thou shall not kill" is 
taken seriously by some Christians, including the Catholic Church (I can 
supply the papal decree that verifies the Biblical reasoning involved in 
this decision), to indicate that the death penalty almost always is against 
the will of God.  Yet many fundamentalist Christians insist that the 
commandment against killing is really only meant for those cold blooded 
murderers who kill senselessly, it is a commandment against "murder," but if 
you kill to punish or gain righteous compensation for a hideous crime (let's 
forget for a moment that flawed and limited human mind which has sent many 
to death row, death row inmates who were later released from prison by the 
dozens after they were shown to be innocent), you have God's blessing.

You will dodge this very real and controversial division within Christianity 
about the death penalty, which demonstrates with startling clarity the 
relativistic and flawed interpretations of the Bible which Christian's argue 
over: both interpretations cannot be right, can they?  So there are millions 
of Christians who are wrongly interpreting the Bible on the issue, either 
the whole Catholic Church, or other groups of Christians who number in the 
millions who believe staunchly in the death penalty.

Obviously it is rather easy to find a commandment out of the Ten that does 
lead to confusion and contentious complex arguments that lead millions of 
Christians to disagree with each other.
And considering that millions of Christians must be wrong about this issue, 
those Christians who have chosen the wrong side, we can conclude this must 
be that flawed and limited human mind at work.

Your dismissal of my point that God's laws can be difficult for a flawed 
limited human mind to comprehend failed!

Again, you did not really answer the question posed by this dilemma!

Luke wrote:

>     You try to claim that truth is some obscure blob, an off-white jello 
>far
>away from us that we can never truly see. Yet you admitted that you have
>many doubts about your own beliefs, that you can never claim surety, that
>all absolutist belief systems are false (yet not the belief that absolutist
>belief systems are false), and that I cannot be sure without being 
>arrogant,
>of which you are sure. One self-contradiction after another, it seems.

Ted answers:

You misstate what I have been saying, showing you are not reading what I 
wrote.  I will break this down into several different statements to attempt 
to not fall into self referential traps of logic.

Some statements I do believe are certain:

All men are mortal:  Socrates is a man:  Therefore Socrates is mortal: 
Logical certainty.

The earth is approximately spherical in shape, not flat: Empirical certainty

Some statements I believe involve great uncertainly:

Some absolutist belief systems about God and the whole universe may be true 
in whole.  The evidence is lacking to PROVE any of these belief systems to 
be wholly true, for many reasons.  Logical and empirical uncertainty.

There is intelligent life elsewhere off earth in our galaxy.  Maybe it is 
probable, but still:  Empirical uncertainty

So I do think some beliefs are certain, and I do not believe it is certain 
that all absolutist belief systems are false, so you are wrong on both those 
points.  Any arrogance I stated you possess is based on expressing certainly 
in denying the possible truth in other belief systems about religion than 
your own.  If you are certain that 1+1=2 I will not call this arrogance.  
When you imply there are no moral complications in the Ten Commandments that 
the limited and flawed human mind may have difficulty solving, yes, you are 
being arrogant.  See my points above on the death penalty and the 
commandment "Thou Shall Not Kill."


Luke wrote:

>     Even though there may be confusing facets to language and logic, there
>still is truth and falsehood. You seem to think that because some logicians
>tangle themselves into a knot, it therefore follows that if I use logic, I
>am in a tangled knot also.

Ted anwers:

Luke, it is you who were using the traps of self referential logical 
statements to try to tie me up into knots!  I was merely trying to shed some 
light on these sorts of contradictions that I stated were difficult for 
anyone to avoid when dealing with complex belief systems.  I am saying, 
however, that you have the same limitations of the flawed and limited human 
mind that we all have, so yes, you will likely find yourself stuck in 
contradictions in your belief system if you investigate it fully.

Luke wrote:

>But this is clearly false. A scientist can make a
>mistake in a painstaking calculation, rendering his entire experiment
>useless, but a child may still add two plus two, and get four.
>     Truth is not the off-white jello on the horizon, but rather an 
>infinite
>puzzle board; some pieces are placed together for us, giving the general
>picture; we try to fit the small pieces in, and some have more success than
>others. And then there are those who refuse to look at the puzzle-board at
>all.
>

Ted answers:

Gee, I am at a loss.  This last segment I find myself in agreement with.


Ted wrote:

> > I think it is clear that there is reasonable doubt about these spiritual
> > issues, and people of faith believe what they do based on faith.  But 
>then
> > this position of religious belief leads us to the view I am advocating, 
>a
> > respect for other religions based on a humble realization that the
> > intentions and thoughts of God may not conform just to one religions
> > interpretations.
>

Luke answered:

>And the teacher said, "Children, each of you has his own opinion on these
>subtraction questions. We're not going to judge you, so each of you gets
>100%." The young students cheered madly, and he prided himself on his
>mathematical humility. After all, 1 + 1 could equal 3.
>

Ted answers:

Luke, what is the point of this little story?   We are not debating simple 
addition here, Luke.  We are discussing the most difficult and complex 
questions of spirituality and morality and truth.  I suppose you are 
attacking some sort of silly relativism you imply I endorse that you see as 
ridiculous.  But the debate in Christianity about the death penalty, for 
example, is not silly or ridiculous.  Shall I write a mocking little story 
about Christians arguing over the death penalty, which they do most 
definitely, exposing the conflicts and doubt within Christianity over a 
critical moral issue?!

To say the commandment "Thou Shall Not Kill" allows for the moral 
application of the death penalty is to many Christians like saying 1+1=3.

Ted

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