[Vision2020] Heaven and hell?

[Ralph Nielsen]

> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Ralph Nielsen" <nielsen@uidaho.edu>
> To: "Luke" <lukenieuwsma@softhome.net>
> Sent: Monday, June 30, 2003 9:22 PM
> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Heaven and hell?
>
>
>> Luke,
>>
>> I hope to get back to you tomorrow. You have a lot to learn about the
>> Bible and its history.
>>
>> Ralph


On Tuesday, July 1, 2003, at 10:39 PM, Luke wrote:

>     Actually, don't bother. You won't convince me, and I won't 
> convince you.
> I am sure of my belief in the Bible's authenticity beyond all doubt, 
> and you
> are steadfastly sure of its errors. I had to post one reply to what you
> wrote, sir; however, I am not going to perpetuate another endless 
> debate at
> the moment.
> Sincerely and respectfully,
>
> Luke Nieuwsma
>
RALPH NIELSEN
Poor Luke, a victim of fundamentalist propaganda. I hope he eventually 
grows up and thinks for himself.  He imagines that I am attacking what 
the Bible says. He couldn't be more wrong. I said that there is no life 
after death in the Hebrew religion, i.e., the pre-Exilic religion of 
the Hebrew people as we have it in the Bible. But Luke doesn't believe 
the Bible.

I will have other things to do in the next few days, so I will just 
leave my reading public with a few references to show that I am not 
spouting off some half-baked opinions of my own, as Luke seems to 
suggest, but am presenting biblical facts recognized by established 
scholars, both Jewish and Christian.

	"Much later, biblical religion postulated that the ultimate destiny of 
the individual does not end with death. There is not a hint of this 
suggestion in the Torah [the first 5 books of the Bible. RN], however, 
or in most of the Bible. There, human death is final. Whatever ideal 
state an individual Israelite can hope to achieve is restricted to 
one's lifetime and is conditional on heeding God's commands; material 
prosperity, good health, length of days, self-determination, posterity, 
and peace (Deuteronomy 28:1-14). With the possible exception of Elijah 
and Enoch, all biblical personalities die and their death is final." 
(Etz Hayim, Torah and Commentary. The Rabbinical Assembly, The United 
Synagogue of Conservative Judaism. Produced by the Jewish Publication 
Society, c2001). Article on Eschatology, p. 1436.

	 "Life after death. It is generally held by scholars that no hope of 
individual survival after death is expressed in the Old Testament 
before some of its latest passages, which were probably written in the 
2d century BC." (The New Jerome Biblical Commentary, edited by Raymond 
E. Brown [et al.]. Prentice Hall, c1990).  Article on Eschatology and 
the Afterlife, p. 1313.

	"In the preexilic period, there was no notion of a judgment of the 
dead based on their actions during life, nor is there any evidence for 
a belief that the righteous dead go to live in God's presence. The two 
persons in the Hebrew Bible who are taken to heaven to live with God, 
Enoch (Gen. 5:24) and Elijah (2 Kings 2:11), do not die. All who die, 
righteous or wicked, go to Sheol (see Gen. 42:38; Num. 16:30-33)." (The 
Oxford Companion to the Bible. Edited by Bruce M. Metzger, Michael D. 
Coogan. Oxford University Press, c1993). Article on Afterlife and 
Immortality, p. 15.

I have no doubt that young Luke Nieuwsma is sincere in his ignorance 
but I have no respect for the shysters and scoundrels, both religious 
and political, who mislead people like him. Our best defense against 
them is a good biblical education.

As a retired librarian, I would recommend the books mentioned above, as 
well as Remedial Christianity; What Every Believer Should Know about 
the Faith, but Probably Doesn't, by Paul Alan Laughlin. Polebridge 
Press, c2000. Your local bookstore will be glad to order them for you.

Ralph Nielsen