Fwd: [Vision2020] The Heckler had to be another liar!
Valuachild@aol.com
Valuachild@aol.com
Sat, 13 Dec 2003 22:21:20 EST
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Suandra,
I believe the heckler, was lying about not being from Christ Church.
We need to find out who he is. Actually in the studies I've read about adult
children of physical abuse, it's not unusual for these types to be chronic
liars because as children they lied to get out of physical punishment and it
became habitual on into adulthood. I believe someone can identify this man who
accosted me. I could have screamed "get away from me" of "leave me alone", but
I do have a certain amount of respect. The cops just looked on. I'm sure
that's how they treat women in many situations, including DV calls in Idaho.
Rates of homicide and suicide related to Domestic Violence are epidemic in rural
Idaho, and that's not including all the calls that go unreported, because
biased jurisdictions refuse. Since I've lived in Whitman County, there hasn't
been one homicide, and given a similar population base, that's quite the contrary
to Latah County, where I believe there have been several DV homicides.
It wasn't unusual for me to be shunned for being a strong,
independent, single parent divorcee, shunned especially by Christ Church members. I
remember how hurt I was, when Logos faculty asked to read my supreme court case,
and their only comment was, "Does your ex-husband ever get to see his
children?" They called me a feminist, which I am, but isn't every woman who believes
in equal treatment under the law? This was their attitude, a sort of "male
privilege" sexism that came even from the women. Although I did sometimes use
Ruth Stoneman to make it easier for my children's friends and such, calling
me Ruth Stoneman the other night was just a way to rub in and remind me that
I'm still some kind of former possession of my ex-husband. I have reason to
believe that these people are suppressing evidence about spousal abuse there as
well.
Ruth
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<HTML><FONT FACE=3Darial,helvetica><FONT SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=
=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0">Suandra,<BR>
I believe the heckler, was lying about=20=
not being from Christ Church. We need to find out who he is. Act=
ually in the studies I've read about adult children of physical abuse, it's=20=
not unusual for these types to be chronic liars because as children they lie=
d to get out of physical punishment and it became habitual on into adulthood=
. I believe someone can identify this man who accosted me. I cou=
ld have screamed "get away from me" of "leave me alone", but I do have=
a certain amount of respect. The cops just looked on. I'm sure=20=
that's how they treat women in many situations, including DV calls in Idaho.=
Rates of homicide and suicide related to Domestic Violence are epidem=
ic in rural Idaho, and that's not including all the calls that go unreported=
, because biased jurisdictions refuse. Since I've lived in Whitman County, t=
here hasn't been one homicide, and given a similar population base, that's q=
uite the contrary to Latah County, where I believe there have been several D=
V homicides. <BR>
It wasn't unusual for me to be shunned=20=
for being a strong, independent, single parent divorcee, shunned especially=20=
by Christ Church members. I remember how hurt I was, when Logos facult=
y asked to read my supreme court case, and their only comment was, "Does you=
r ex-husband ever get to see his children?" They called me a feminist,=
which I am, but isn't every woman who believes in equal treatment under the=
law? This was their attitude, a sort of "male privilege"=20=
sexism that came even from the women. Although I did sometimes u=
se Ruth Stoneman to make it easier for my children's friends and such, calli=
ng me Ruth Stoneman the other night was just a way to rub in and remind me t=
hat I'm still some kind of former possession of my ex-husband. I=
have reason to believe that these people are suppressing evidence about spo=
usal abuse there as well. <BR>
<BR>
Ruth<BR>
</FONT></HTML>
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From: "Saundra Lund" <sslund@adelphia.net>
To: "'Dale Courtney'" <dmcourtn@moscow.com>, <vision2020@moscow.com>
Subject: RE: [Vision2020] Apathetic Liberals
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Date: Sat, 13 Dec 2003 17:44:58 -0800
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Dale,
=20
Like Rose, I didn't attend the . . . gathering. Nor was I able to attend
the alternative gathering. But, I *am* interested in viewing the video
(assuming it's unedited) -- please tell me how I would go about doing that
(assuming the invitation to view the video isn't restricted just to Rose).
=20
Whether the hecklers were Christ Church members or not, Rose's point is
still valid, perhaps even *more* valid if the hecklers weren't affiliated
with Christ Church/Logos/NSA: how is it a crowd (250-300, yourself included
since you were apparently there) sat there and did virtually nothing while
Ms. Drollinger was "escorted" from the meeting??? If the hecklers weren't,
in fact, affiliated with Christ Church/Logos/NSA, then why the HECK didn't
those in charge of the meeting attempt to STOP the reprehensible behavior???
=20
And, why did Mr. Wilson try to *prevent* Ms. Drollinger from speaking?
Personally, I find the reported assertion that there's no
corporate/government (LOL)/institutional connection between Christ Church &
Logos . . . lame as a very brief perusal of the primary Web sites will
quickly prove. I may have been born at night, but I wasn't born last night!
=20
Additionally, I'm curious about the presence of at least one uniformed
Moscow Police Department officer at the . . . gathering. Why did he do
nothing when Ms. Drollinger was "escorted" from the meeting? Unwanted
aggressive physical contact in the presence of MPD is OK??? What was the
purpose of MPD presence at the . . . gathering? How did that presence come
about?
=20
<sigh>
=20
I guess I shouldn't say much until I get a chance to view the video, so
please tell me how I (and anyone else interested in viewing it is welcome to
join me) would go about seeing it.
=20
BTW, perhaps I'm nit-picking here, but . . . Dale, why do you repeatedly
refer to Ms. Drollinger as "Mrs. Stoneman"? It seems hurtful and just plain
wrong to continue to use her married name when she divorced her convicted
abuser several years ago (if I correctly read the info, she divorced that
man in 1998 and didn't come to Whitman County until 1999). She refers to
herself with the surname 'Drollinger' now, which is apparently her legal
name, so why show disrespect by referring to her with the surname of her
convicted abuser?
=20
=20
Thanks,
Saundra Lund
Moscow, ID
The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good people to do
nothing.
-Edmund Burke=20
-----Original Message-----
From: vision2020-admin@moscow.com [mailto:vision2020-admin@moscow.com] On
Behalf Of Dale Courtney
Sent: Saturday, December 13, 2003 3:48 PM
To: vision2020@moscow.com
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Apathetic Liberals
Rose,
=20
Hate to burst your bubble; but those people who were shouting were not
Christ Church members. It was all video taped. One man in the back-center of
the auditorium shouted for her to "sit down and shut up". Mrs. Stoneman
asked "are you a Christ Church member" and he yelled "no!" Then that same
man got up, walked down to the front, and escorted her out. He was an older
gentleman; unlikely he is a bouncer (though he may have been one 40 years
ago).=20
=20
When she further said "the public wants to know!", another non-CC man from
the middle left said "we are the public! Sit down and shut up!" =20
=20
Feel free to verify this with anyone who was there -- or you can check the
video.
=20
What Mrs. Stoneman needs is our prayers, support, and sympathy. She's been
thru hell (read thru all the articles over at http://www.valuachild.com/ to
see what she and her children have been thru).=20
=20
And, yes, I wish you had been there too. It would have been nice to meet you
and Don at last.
=20
Best,
Dale
=20
=20
----- Original Message -----=20
From: DonaldH675@aol.com=20
To: vision2020@moscow.com=20
Sent: Saturday, December 13, 2003 14:30
Subject: [Vision2020] Apathetic Liberals
Dear Visionaries,
=20
Although I sent one of the earliest "Thanks but no thanks" posts to Doug's
invitation to attend his "Town Meeting," I am now deeply sorry I didn't make
the effort. (and a giant penance it would have been.) to attend. Others had
told me that a woman was escorted out of the meeting amid shouts of "Shut Up
and "Sit Down" Thanks to Ruth's email I have a clearer sense of the
events.
=20
Anyone who sat silently with their ass glued to their seat while the
shouting and escorting out was taking place shouldn't shrink, in my opinion,
from placing their collective bums on folding chairs in the Logos gym every
Sunday morning while Doug channels his weekly sermon from R.L. Dabney. (Be
sure to bring your wallets and pocket books for the offering.) In your
silent assent you were cooperating/supporting the racist, sexist,
homophobic, patriarchal agenda of Christ Church (pastor and communicants),
or even more pathetically, falling prey to Doug's purported charisma. Shame
to you! You were handed a classic example of how dissent is silenced and
yet, there you sat, either unwilling or unable to protest - failing to get
up and walk out yourself. It is my hope that none of you excuse your
inaction under the ruse of not knowing how to respond to an awkward social
situation, or wanting to avoid public embarrassment. That is pure baloney.
Spineless is the kindest descriptions that comes to my mind - closely
followed by the term limousine liberal. And God knows, there have always
been a plethora of those folks in university towns. YIKES!!!=20
=20
Rose Huskey
=20
And what's with the bouncer stuff - Doug traveling with his private security
squad these days? Talk about delusional grandiosity. I'll be on the look
for the stretch limo next.
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<DIV><SPAN class=3D750401400-14122003>Dale,</SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D750401400-14122003></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D750401400-14122003>Like Rose, I didn't attend t=
he . .=20
. gathering. Nor was I able to attend the alternative gathering. =
=20
But, I *am* interested in viewing the video (assuming it's unedited) -- plea=
se=20
tell me how I would go about doing that (assuming the invitation to view the=
=20
video isn't restricted just to Rose).</SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D750401400-14122003></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D750401400-14122003>Whether the hecklers were Christ Churc=
h=20
members or not, Rose's point is still valid, perhaps even *more* valid if th=
e=20
hecklers weren't affiliated with Christ Church/Logos/NSA: how=20
is it a crowd (250-300, yourself included since you were=20
apparently there) sat there and did virtually nothing while M=
s.=20
Drollinger was "escorted" from the meeting??? If the hecklers weren't,=
in=20
fact, affiliated with Christ Church/Logos/NSA, then why the HECK didn't=
=20
those in charge of the meeting attempt to STOP the reprehensible=20
behavior???</SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D750401400-14122003></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D750401400-14122003>And, why did Mr. Wilson try to *preven=
t* Ms.=20
Drollinger from speaking? Personally, I find the reported asserti=
on=20
that there's no corporate/government (LOL)/institutional connection between=20
Christ Church & Logos . . . lame as a very brief perusal of the primary=20=
Web=20
sites will quickly prove. I may have been born at night, but I wasn't=20=
born=20
last night!</SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D750401400-14122003></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D750401400-14122003>Additionally, I'm curious about the pr=
esence=20
of at least one uniformed Moscow Police Department officer at the . . .=20
gathering. Why did he do nothing when Ms. Drollinger was "escorted" fr=
om=20
the meeting? Unwanted aggressive physical contact in the presence=
=20
of MPD is OK??? What was the purpose of MPD presence at the=20=
. .=20
. gathering? How did that presence come about?</SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D750401400-14122003></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D750401400-14122003><sigh></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D750401400-14122003></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D750401400-14122003>I guess I shouldn't say much unti=
l I=20
get a chance to view the video, so please tell me how I (and anyone els=
e=20
interested in viewing it is welcome to join me) would go about seeing=20
it.</SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D750401400-14122003></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D750401400-14122003>BTW, perhaps I'm nit-picking here, but=
. . .=20
Dale, why do you repeatedly refer to Ms. Drollinger as "Mrs. Stoneman"? =
; It=20
seems hurtful and just plain wrong to continue to use her married name when=20=
she=20
divorced her convicted abuser several years ago (if I correctly read the inf=
o,=20
she divorced that man in 1998 and didn't come to Whitman County until=20
1999). She refers to herself with the surname 'Drollinger' now, which=20=
is=20
apparently her legal name, so why show disrespect by referring to=20
her with the surname of her convicted abuser?</SPAN></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D750401400-14122003>Thanks,</SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D750401400-14122003></SPAN>Saundra<SPAN class=3D750401400=
-14122003> Lund</SPAN><BR>Moscow, ID<BR><BR>The only thing=20
necessary for the triumph of evil is for good people to do nothing.<BR>-Edmu=
nd=20
Burke </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV class=3DOutlookMessageHeader lang=3Den-us dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><FON=
T face=3DTahoma>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B>=20
vision2020-admin@moscow.com [mailto:vision2020-admin@moscow.com] <B>On Beh=
alf=20
Of </B>Dale Courtney<BR><B>Sent:</B> Saturday, December 13, 2003 3:48=20
PM<BR><B>To:</B> vision2020@moscow.com<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: [Vision2020]=
=20
Apathetic Liberals<BR><BR></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D3>Rose,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D3></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D3>Hate to burst your bubble; bu=
t those=20
people who were shouting were <U>not</U> Christ Church members. It was all=
=20
video taped. One man in the back-center of the auditorium shouted for=
her=20
to "sit down and shut up". Mrs. Stoneman asked "are you a Christ Church=20
member" and he yelled "no!" Then that same man got up, walked do=
wn=20
to the front, and escorted her out. He was an older gentleman; unlike=
ly=20
he is a bouncer (though he may have been one 40 years ago). </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D3></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D3>When she further said "t=
he=20
public wants to know!", another non-CC man from the middle left said "we a=
re=20
the public! Sit down and shut up!" </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D3></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D3>Feel free to verify this with=
anyone=20
who was there -- or you can check the video.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D3></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D3>What Mrs. Stoneman needs is o=
ur=20
prayers, support, and sympathy. She's been thru hell (read thru all the=20
articles over at <A href=3D"http://www.valuachild.com/">http://www=
.valuachild.com/</A> to see=20
what she and her children have been thru). </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D3></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D3>And, yes, I wish you had been=
there=20
too. It would have been nice to meet you and Don at last.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D3></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D3>Best,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D3>Dale</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D3></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D3></FONT> </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr >
<DIV>----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV ><B>From:</B>=20
<A title=3DDonaldH675@aol.com href=3D"mailto:DonaldH675@aol.com">Do=
naldH675@aol.com</A> </DIV>
<DIV><B>To:</B> <A title=3Dvision2020@moscow.com href=3D"mailto:vis=
ion2020@moscow.com">vision2020@moscow.com</A> </DIV>
<DIV><B>Sent:</B> Saturday, December 13, 2003=20
14:30</DIV>
<DIV><B>Subject:</B> [Vision2020] Apathetic=20
Liberals</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D3>Dear V=
isionaries,</FONT></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><o:p><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D3>&=
nbsp;</FONT></o:p></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D3>Althou=
gh I sent one of the earliest “Thanks but no thanks” posts to=20
Doug’s invitation to attend his “Town Meeting,” I am n=
ow deeply sorry I=20
didn’t make the effort. (and a giant penance it would have been.)=20=
to=20
attend.<SPAN> </SPAN>Others had told me that=20
a woman was escorted out of the meeting amid shouts of “Shut Up an=
d “Sit=20
Down” <SPAN> </SPAN>Thanks to Ruth’s email=20
<SPAN> </SPAN>I have a clearer sense of the=20
events.</FONT></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><o:p><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D3>&=
nbsp;</FONT></o:p></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D3>Anyone=
who sat silently with their ass glued to their seat while the=20
shouting and escorting out was taking place shouldn’t shrink, in m=
y opinion,=20
from placing their collective bums on folding chairs in the Logos gym ev=
ery=20
Sunday morning while Doug channels his weekly sermon from R.L. Dabney.<S=
PAN > </SPAN>(Be sure to bring your wallets and=20
pocket books for the offering.) In your silent assent you were=20
cooperating/supporting the racist, sexist, homophobic, patriarchal agend=
a of=20
<st1:place><st1:PlaceName>Christ</st1:PlaceName> <st1:PlaceType>Church=20
(pastor and communicants)</st1:PlaceType></st1:place>, or even more=20
pathetically, falling prey to Doug’s purported charisma. Shame to=20=
you!<SPAN > </SPAN>You were handed a classic example of=20
how dissent is silenced and yet, there you sat, either unwilling or unab=
le=20
to protest – failing to get up and walk out yourself.<SPAN >&n=
bsp; </SPAN>It is my hope that none of you=20
excuse your inaction under the ruse of not knowing how to respond to an=20
awkward social situation, or wanting to avoid public=20
embarrassment.<SPAN> That is pure=20
baloney</SPAN>.<SPAN> </SPAN>Spineless is=20
the kindest descriptions that comes to my mind – closely followed=20=
by the=20
term limousine liberal.<SPAN> </SPAN><SPAN > </SPAN>And G=
od knows, there have always been=20
a plethora of those folks in university towns. YIKES!!! </FONT></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><o:p><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D3>&=
nbsp;</FONT></o:p></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D3>Rose H=
uskey</FONT></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><o:p><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D3>&=
nbsp;</FONT></o:p></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D3>And wh=
at’s with the bouncer stuff – Doug traveling with his private=20
security squad these days?<SPAN> </SPAN>Talk=20
about delusional grandiosity.<SPAN> =20
</SPAN>I’ll be on the look for the stretch limo=20
next.</FONT></P></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>
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