[Vision2020] Even More Internet Talk Against Doug Wilson

[Douglas Stambler]

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More From "www.hyperthinking.us" Versus Doug Wilson
 
 
I wonder what the members of "Doug Wilsons church" will say when Mr. Stambler shows up to move them to his church. "We're going where? Why??". And what is this twisted theology?
Des
(Joliet, IL)
Posted by Des at August 11, 2003 12:56 AM 
Des,

D. Stambler doesn't have a church, he has an agenda to take out Christ Church. It's absolutely NOT the same as anything I have "against" Doug Wilson.

I have read Doug Wilson's books for several years now, and have really enjoyed much he has had to say about issues and Christianity, etc. I've become a more critical reader of his things since AAPC 2002 though.

On this weblog I have written quite a few times about Doug Wilson. Mr. Stambler takes this as evidence that I'm on his "side". I am not on his or anyone's "side".

I do firmly believe that some of his teachings are in error, that his desire to change some of the language we use particularly in Reformed circles is unneccesary --even dangerous. It does not make him a "heretic" to be hedging on Truth's edge, I sure hope there is a high hedge on it's edge.

Doug Wilson just seems, from down in the hinterling areas of the US, to be creating a Mecca in ID. This is subjective and purely not something that we all can understand outside of Moscow. Mr. Stambler is the loan voice of dissent, but it's not so cut and dry. His agenda goes far beyond "heretical teachings" He's not fond of the Reformed faith, Calvin, and so much more. He despises it.

No person that despises the Reformed faith is my close ally. Allies are folk that believe the same things, with differences being in little things. Between D.S. and D.W., who'd be considered my ally? D.W.

I have seen no evidence that Christ Church is "falling apart", it may be true, but that will have to wait for better reporting from that part of the Country.

Mr. Stambler has made some very heavy accusations around the interent, about the personage of Doug Wilson. I have nothing to do with that. I have no agenda against him [D. Wilson] as a person. I have desire for him to stay in the Reformed faith and not have him saying that he is, but that I'm {me} not really "Reformed".

That's in a nutshell, the gist of why I'm more careful with D. Wilson writings and sermons.

As for the "twisted theology" that D. Stambler refers to: it's some scandalous stuff "said to be going on in Moscow", as well as Calvinism, Reformed stuff in general.

I'd love to hear someone in Moscow truly report on the condition of Christ Church. D. Stambler ain't the one to do it. Neither am I. I just know that I've heard and read "troubling things" in D. Wilsons AAPC 2002 stuff as well as Post AAPC 2002. The sarcasm coming out of Moscow has gotten very stale and moldy as well. Straight talk has a high place in understanding what someone is talking about. I'm waiting for it, still.
Posted by Marysue at August 11, 2003 05:29 AM 

I'm still relatively new to all this Reformed stuff... As a result, I find this contraversy a tad confusing. What's your opinion of H. King's analysis of D. Wilson/AAPC 2002? Also, could you define your use of the term "mecca"? I know what my dictionary says and if you mean "creating a place that people with certain interests are eager to visit" than I'd say he's certainly done that and as long as he's on the up-n-up theologically you can count on us stopping in the Kirk the next time we're visiting relatives in Spokane. If you mean creating a place of worship revolving around *him*, that is obviously wrong and worthy of great concern. If you mean creating a cohesive *community* based on a certain denominational faith, well, I see some definite benefits. It seems there are others out there with the same idea. P. Lancaster/Misty Mtn., RCJr./Highlands Study Center. (Forgive me, I could be associating wrong names w/ wrong places, etc. Like I said, I'm still relatively new to al!
 l of
 this.) In which case, the problem w/ him creating this kind of community is *if* his theology is wrong...correct? I'm probably stepping in where I have no intellectual right to be... 
Posted by Tamara (AK) at August 12, 2003 12:24 AM 

Tamara,

I understand that this is a confusing issue. It is for newcomers to the Reformed faith, and for folks in it a long time already.

There are a few basic issues that are dividing the Reformed into particular camps. Not every camp is unto itself, it's very mixed up.

There's:
Paedocommunion - and this issue isn't two-sided, it multi-faceted

Norman Shepherd or "Sheperdism"
Kinnard of the OPC

New Perspective on Paul or "NPP"

These things are tangled together and not always easy to see clear lines of distinction.

In 2002 at the AAPC in Monroe, LA, four men, now known as "The Monroe Four" spoke on the relationship of the covenant.

To put it mildly, it stirred up a hornets nest.

If you are able to download the Mp3's from Sermon Audio still, you can find them on Schlissel's part of that site. There are 13 separate Mp3's to download.

In these lectures, things were said that put Justification by Faith Alone aside. New paradigms were introduced. It was troubling to listen to them, and really, worse than that.

In June of that year, the RPCUS came out with a document against NPP, and a document calling on the authority of the churches the Monroe Four are with, to look into their "heretical teachings". These documents were released together and caused quite a stir. They were separate documents, but had become glued at the hip by the internet community overnight

The men were said to be "teaching heretical things" and were NOT called "heretics".

Unfortunately sides were drawn and mud began to fly back and forth. Each side claims the other slang the mud only. It was on both sides, but it must be noted that the side the Monroe Four were on got quite nasty, and D.W. continued to issue forth sarcastic writings, instead of serious answers.

In the AAPC 2002 audio, the Westminster Confession of faith was mocked somewhat, and "Southern Presbyterians" were accused of being nothing more than "Reformed Baptists". The most noteworthy "Southern Presbyterians" would be the ones in the RPCUS, which is the denomination the church we are members of is in. So we've seen this whole thing firsthand.

The role that faith plays in our salvation, justification and sanctification has been re-worded, at best it's a re-wording, but clarifications have shown it's worse than that. It's a faith + works thing, vhelmently denied it's meritorious works, but in the end that's what it shows.

The New Perspective on Paul shows this
Sheperdism shows this
Schillsel shows this
Wilson shows this
Barach shows this
Wilkens shows this

Paedocommunion is an issue that is at the forefront. It's not supposed to be practiced in the PCA or the OPC, but some places are allowing it, wrongfully, and other pastors believe in it, but don't practice it in their churches. The thing about the AAPC and things since that conference, is that paedocommunion is being tauted as being "what the Westminster Confession teaches" what the "Reformers taught" and that it's a historic tradition accepted all through the Christian age, basically. That's hogwash.

As my pastor says: "Calvin's name can be invoked to have said anything. It doesn't mean he said it. Context is important. One has to read Calvin to know what he taught. Don't just believe someone when they say he taught it. Don't give them the benifit of doubt, look into it yourself."

OK now, as for the MECCA stuff, I'm not talking about covenant communties. That's no problem. I'm referring to a tendancy for everyone to bow to Moscow, ID. Doug Wilson has written some good stuff over the years, taught some good things. He's straying, but that's not the point. He's just a man, and the attitude of "HOW GREAT" it is in Moscow, Christ Church, it's cult-ish. I'm NOT saying they are a cult. What I mean by "cult-ish" is that he's reverd by many as if he is doing no wrong, and invoked as much as saying "I'm of Paul", or "I'm of Apollos" or "I'm Of Cepahs" ect.That's fully what I mean. Mecca, the place all bow to for prayer in Islam, it's a reference to that kind of thing. The place to journey to, a pilgrimage ... :)

Do you have a link to H. King's analysis of Doug Wilson? I have seen his critique of the Auburn Avenue July 18, 2002 document. Are you referring to something else?

The Auburn Ave. document came down as a very unclear statement to me. It confused things, and very much caused more of a stir in the Reformed camps.

Rewording things is part of this whole thing, giving new names to existing categories. It's a way to confuse a generation, and gain a step in another direction that will be fully realized in another generation or two.

Well, that's just the short of it. I hope I've not confused you more! Nor turned you off. The general feeling out there is to read everything critically, when it comes to this controversial stuff particularly, so read this just that same way. :)
Posted by Marysue at August 12, 2003 01:04 AM 

Just so you know, as a member in good standing of Christ Church in Moscow, I intend to respond to your plea for realistic news sometime today or tomorrow. :)
Posted by Fred at August 13, 2003 09:01 AM 

Fred,

I'll be looking forward to hearing more!

:)
Posted by Marysue at August 13, 2003 07:58 PM 

First off, I should explain my position. I am a student at New Saint Andrews College, and as such I have been away from Moscow all summer. Some things have changed. But I will try to fill you in on how I see things in Moscow, especially with regards to recent controversies.

The condition of the church. Christ Church continues to grow, in numbers and in understanding of the gospel. Because of the growth in numbers, they have recently started a church plant also in Moscow, headed by Dr. Peter Leithart. The elders recognize the difficulty of effectively shepherding a congregation that was pushing 1000, and they have decided on the strategy of starting a new congregation. Since Dr. Leithart's plant, Trinity Reformed Church, has only been in operation for a few weeks, the success of their efforts remains to be seen.

All of the ministries of Christ Church are growing and doing well. God has been blessing them enormously. Notable in this regard is New Saint Andrews with its new building and enrollment of (I imagine near) 150 this fall. I think their website has some information, www.nsa.edu.

As far as theology goes, I must state that in all my years of church going (which have been varied), I have never heard a preacher emphasize God's love for his people the way Doug Wilson does. In nearly every sermon, I walk away thinking how wonderful God is to me in everything, from salvation (most of all) and sanctification to grass stains and rubber tires. The church has a solid head on its shoulders, and the worship is becoming more and more Christ-centered as the church works through its philosophy in this area.

I want to briefly address the Credenda stuff. I admit I have wondered about whether or not Credenda has gone a little far with its recent covers. It's one thing to defend good satire, it's another when the cover merely scandalizes. That said, I do not feel that voicing complaints about the magazine on a blog to be the proper outlet. The proper outlet is, as Matthew 18 says, going first to your brother - the magazine itself. Because I have not said anything to Nate Wilson about this, I have no right to voice it on a blog. But even theological greats have had their embarassing moments (e.g., Luther and the book of James). I do not see a pattern in Credenda of over-reaching satirical stupidity. Yet.

As far as Doug Stambler goes, the church is ignoring him, as should everyone who runs across this lunatic. 'Nuff said.

Did I address everything adequately?
Posted by Fred at August 13, 2003 09:51 PM 



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<DIV align=center><STRONG><FONT size=3>More From "</FONT></STRONG><A href="http://www.hyperthinking.us"><STRONG><FONT size=3>www.hyperthinking.us</FONT></STRONG></A><STRONG><FONT size=3>" Versus Doug Wilson</FONT></STRONG></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>I wonder what the members of "Doug Wilsons church" will say when Mr. Stambler shows up to move them to his church. "We're going where? Why??". And what is this twisted theology?
<P>Des<BR>(Joliet, IL)</P><SPAN class=comments-post><FONT color=#999999 size=1>Posted by </FONT><A href="mailto:Destruct1on@hotmail.com"><FONT color=#336666 size=1>Des</FONT></A><FONT color=#999999 size=1> at August 11, 2003 12:56 AM</FONT></SPAN> 
<DIV class=comments-body>
<P>Des,</P>
<P>D. Stambler doesn't have a church, he has an agenda to take out Christ Church. It's absolutely NOT the same as anything I have "against" Doug Wilson.</P>
<P>I have read Doug Wilson's books for several years now, and have really enjoyed much he has had to say about issues and Christianity, etc. I've become a more critical reader of his things since AAPC 2002 though.</P>
<P>On this weblog I have written quite a few times about Doug Wilson. Mr. Stambler takes this as evidence that I'm on his "side". I am not on his or anyone's "side".</P>
<P>I do firmly believe that some of his teachings are in error, that his desire to change some of the language we use particularly in Reformed circles is unneccesary --even dangerous. It does not make him a "heretic" to be hedging on Truth's edge, I sure hope there is a high hedge on it's edge.</P>
<P>Doug Wilson just seems, from down in the hinterling areas of the US, to be creating a Mecca in ID. This is subjective and purely not something that we all can understand outside of Moscow. Mr. Stambler is the loan voice of dissent, but it's not so cut and dry. His agenda goes far beyond "heretical teachings" He's not fond of the Reformed faith, Calvin, and so much more. He despises it.</P>
<P>No person that despises the Reformed faith is my close ally. Allies are folk that believe the same things, with differences being in little things. Between D.S. and D.W., who'd be considered my ally? D.W.</P>
<P>I have seen no evidence that Christ Church is "falling apart", it may be true, but that will have to wait for better reporting from that part of the Country.</P>
<P>Mr. Stambler has made some very heavy accusations around the interent, about the personage of Doug Wilson. I have nothing to do with that. I have no agenda against him [D. Wilson] as a person. I have desire for him to stay in the Reformed faith and not have him saying that he is, but that I'm {me} not really "Reformed".</P>
<P>That's in a nutshell, the gist of why I'm more careful with D. Wilson writings and sermons.</P>
<P>As for the "twisted theology" that D. Stambler refers to: it's some scandalous stuff "said to be going on in Moscow", as well as Calvinism, Reformed stuff in general.</P>
<P>I'd love to hear someone in Moscow truly report on the condition of Christ Church. D. Stambler ain't the one to do it. Neither am I. I just know that I've heard and read "troubling things" in D. Wilsons AAPC 2002 stuff as well as Post AAPC 2002. The sarcasm coming out of Moscow has gotten very stale and moldy as well. Straight talk has a high place in understanding what someone is talking about. I'm waiting for it, still.</P><SPAN class=comments-post><FONT color=#999999 size=1>Posted by </FONT><A href="http://www.hyperthinking.us/weblog/" target=_blank><FONT color=#336666 size=1>Marysue</FONT></A><FONT color=#999999 size=1> at August 11, 2003 05:29 AM</FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV class=comments-body>
<P>I'm still relatively new to all this Reformed stuff... As a result, I find this contraversy a tad confusing. What's your opinion of H. King's analysis of D. Wilson/AAPC 2002? Also, could you define your use of the term "mecca"? I know what my dictionary says and if you mean "creating a place that people with certain interests are eager to visit" than I'd say he's certainly done that and as long as he's on the up-n-up theologically you can count on us stopping in the Kirk the next time we're visiting relatives in Spokane. If you mean creating a place of worship revolving around *him*, that is obviously wrong and worthy of great concern. If you mean creating a cohesive *community* based on a certain denominational faith, well, I see some definite benefits. It seems there are others out there with the same idea. P. Lancaster/Misty Mtn., RCJr./Highlands Study Center. (Forgive me, I could be associating wrong names w/ wrong places, etc. Like I said, I'm still relatively new to!
  all of
 this.) In which case, the problem w/ him creating this kind of community is *if* his theology is wrong...correct? I'm probably stepping in where I have no intellectual right to be... </P><SPAN class=comments-post><FONT color=#999999 size=1>Posted by </FONT><A href="mailto:waynehunt@gci.net"><FONT color=#336666 size=1>Tamara (AK)</FONT></A><FONT color=#999999 size=1> at August 12, 2003 12:24 AM</FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV class=comments-body>
<P>Tamara,</P>
<P>I understand that this is a confusing issue. It is for newcomers to the Reformed faith, and for folks in it a long time already.</P>
<P>There are a few basic issues that are dividing the Reformed into particular camps. Not every camp is unto itself, it's very mixed up.</P>
<P>There's:<BR>Paedocommunion - and this issue isn't two-sided, it multi-faceted</P>
<P>Norman Shepherd or "Sheperdism"<BR>Kinnard of the OPC</P>
<P>New Perspective on Paul or "NPP"</P>
<P>These things are tangled together and not always easy to see clear lines of distinction.</P>
<P>In 2002 at the AAPC in Monroe, LA, four men, now known as "The Monroe Four" spoke on the relationship of the covenant.</P>
<P>To put it mildly, it stirred up a hornets nest.</P>
<P>If you are able to download the Mp3's from Sermon Audio still, you can find them on Schlissel's part of that site. There are 13 separate Mp3's to download.</P>
<P>In these lectures, things were said that put Justification by Faith Alone aside. New paradigms were introduced. It was troubling to listen to them, and really, worse than that.</P>
<P>In June of that year, the RPCUS came out with a document against NPP, and a document calling on the authority of the churches the Monroe Four are with, to look into their "heretical teachings". These documents were released together and caused quite a stir. They were separate documents, but had become glued at the hip by the internet community overnight</P>
<P>The men were said to be "teaching heretical things" and were NOT called "heretics".</P>
<P>Unfortunately sides were drawn and mud began to fly back and forth. Each side claims the other slang the mud only. It was on both sides, but it must be noted that the side the Monroe Four were on got quite nasty, and D.W. continued to issue forth sarcastic writings, instead of serious answers.</P>
<P>In the AAPC 2002 audio, the Westminster Confession of faith was mocked somewhat, and "Southern Presbyterians" were accused of being nothing more than "Reformed Baptists". The most noteworthy "Southern Presbyterians" would be the ones in the RPCUS, which is the denomination the church we are members of is in. So we've seen this whole thing firsthand.</P>
<P>The role that faith plays in our salvation, justification and sanctification has been re-worded, at best it's a re-wording, but clarifications have shown it's worse than that. It's a faith + works thing, vhelmently denied it's meritorious works, but in the end that's what it shows.</P>
<P>The New Perspective on Paul shows this<BR>Sheperdism shows this<BR>Schillsel shows this<BR>Wilson shows this<BR>Barach shows this<BR>Wilkens shows this</P>
<P>Paedocommunion is an issue that is at the forefront. It's not supposed to be practiced in the PCA or the OPC, but some places are allowing it, wrongfully, and other pastors believe in it, but don't practice it in their churches. The thing about the AAPC and things since that conference, is that paedocommunion is being tauted as being "what the Westminster Confession teaches" what the "Reformers taught" and that it's a historic tradition accepted all through the Christian age, basically. That's hogwash.</P>
<P>As my pastor says: "Calvin's name can be invoked to have said anything. It doesn't mean he said it. Context is important. One has to read Calvin to know what he taught. Don't just believe someone when they say he taught it. Don't give them the benifit of doubt, look into it yourself."</P>
<P>OK now, as for the MECCA stuff, I'm not talking about covenant communties. That's no problem. I'm referring to a tendancy for everyone to bow to Moscow, ID. Doug Wilson has written some good stuff over the years, taught some good things. He's straying, but that's not the point. He's just a man, and the attitude of "HOW GREAT" it is in Moscow, Christ Church, it's cult-ish. I'm NOT saying they are a cult. What I mean by "cult-ish" is that he's reverd by many as if he is doing no wrong, and invoked as much as saying "I'm of Paul", or "I'm of Apollos" or "I'm Of Cepahs" ect.That's fully what I mean. Mecca, the place all bow to for prayer in Islam, it's a reference to that kind of thing. The place to journey to, a pilgrimage ... :)</P>
<P>Do you have a link to H. King's analysis of Doug Wilson? I have seen his critique of the Auburn Avenue July 18, 2002 document. Are you referring to something else?</P>
<P>The Auburn Ave. document came down as a very unclear statement to me. It confused things, and very much caused more of a stir in the Reformed camps.</P>
<P>Rewording things is part of this whole thing, giving new names to existing categories. It's a way to confuse a generation, and gain a step in another direction that will be fully realized in another generation or two.</P>
<P>Well, that's just the short of it. I hope I've not confused you more! Nor turned you off. The general feeling out there is to read everything critically, when it comes to this controversial stuff particularly, so read this just that same way. :)</P><SPAN class=comments-post><FONT color=#999999 size=1>Posted by </FONT><A href="http://www.hyperthinking.us/weblog/" target=_blank><FONT color=#336666 size=1>Marysue</FONT></A><FONT color=#999999 size=1> at August 12, 2003 01:04 AM</FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV class=comments-body>
<P>Just so you know, as a member in good standing of Christ Church in Moscow, I intend to respond to your plea for realistic news sometime today or tomorrow. :)</P><SPAN class=comments-post><FONT color=#999999 size=1>Posted by </FONT><A href="mailto:theunassumingone2003@yahoo.com"><FONT color=#336666 size=1>Fred</FONT></A><FONT color=#999999 size=1> at August 13, 2003 09:01 AM</FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV class=comments-body>
<P>Fred,</P>
<P>I'll be looking forward to hearing more!</P>
<P>:)</P><SPAN class=comments-post><FONT color=#999999 size=1>Posted by </FONT><A href="http://www.hyperthinking.us/weblog/" target=_blank><FONT color=#336666 size=1>Marysue</FONT></A><FONT color=#999999 size=1> at August 13, 2003 07:58 PM</FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV class=comments-body>
<P>First off, I should explain my position. I am a student at New Saint Andrews College, and as such I have been away from Moscow all summer. Some things have changed. But I will try to fill you in on how I see things in Moscow, especially with regards to recent controversies.</P>
<P>The condition of the church. Christ Church continues to grow, in numbers and in understanding of the gospel. Because of the growth in numbers, they have recently started a church plant also in Moscow, headed by Dr. Peter Leithart. The elders recognize the difficulty of effectively shepherding a congregation that was pushing 1000, and they have decided on the strategy of starting a new congregation. Since Dr. Leithart's plant, Trinity Reformed Church, has only been in operation for a few weeks, the success of their efforts remains to be seen.</P>
<P>All of the ministries of Christ Church are growing and doing well. God has been blessing them enormously. Notable in this regard is New Saint Andrews with its new building and enrollment of (I imagine near) 150 this fall. I think their website has some information, www.nsa.edu.</P>
<P>As far as theology goes, I must state that in all my years of church going (which have been varied), I have never heard a preacher emphasize God's love for his people the way Doug Wilson does. In nearly every sermon, I walk away thinking how wonderful God is to me in everything, from salvation (most of all) and sanctification to grass stains and rubber tires. The church has a solid head on its shoulders, and the worship is becoming more and more Christ-centered as the church works through its philosophy in this area.</P>
<P>I want to briefly address the Credenda stuff. I admit I have wondered about whether or not Credenda has gone a little far with its recent covers. It's one thing to defend good satire, it's another when the cover merely scandalizes. That said, I do not feel that voicing complaints about the magazine on a blog to be the proper outlet. The proper outlet is, as Matthew 18 says, going first to your brother - the magazine itself. Because I have not said anything to Nate Wilson about this, I have no right to voice it on a blog. But even theological greats have had their embarassing moments (e.g., Luther and the book of James). I do not see a pattern in Credenda of over-reaching satirical stupidity. Yet.</P>
<P>As far as Doug Stambler goes, the church is ignoring him, as should everyone who runs across this lunatic. 'Nuff said.</P>
<P>Did I address everything adequately?</P><SPAN class=comments-post><FONT color=#999999 size=1>Posted by </FONT><A href="mailto:theunassumingone2003@yahoo.com"><FONT color=#336666 size=1>Fred</FONT></A><FONT color=#999999 size=1> at August 13, 2003 09:51 PM</FONT></SPAN> </DIV></DIV><p><hr SIZE=1>
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