[Vision2020] Re: Constitutional Ban on Gay Marriage
David Douglas
ddouglas@pacsim.com
Sat, 9 Aug 2003 09:41:48 -0400
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Visionaries:
Donovan writes:
"Second false Premise: I did not refer to Jesus as a supreme being, just
as a great mind."
Ah, yes. The "Jesus was great teacher [mind]" argument. And almost
invariably put forth by those who ignore virtually all His pronouncements
and pay lip service to a few (often out of context with the whole of his
teaching). If I said the things Jesus said, you would dismiss me as a
nut--as well you should.
How would you feel if I told my followers (speaking loosely):
"All the scriptures were about me" (Jesus said this after he rose from the
grave after a Roman execution).
"If you've seen me you've seen God (the Father)"
"Go and make disciples of all the nations" (note the intolerance for the
preservation of a diversity of other practices).
"The gates of hell shall not prevail against my church" (oh, the
intolerance).
"People will want to kill you for following me."
"I am the way, the truth, and the life."
I could go on. Which of those things (and all the others) do you want to
take seriously? And if you pick and choose what to believe about this
"great mind"--who is the greater teacher?
I could go on, but CS Lewis said it better (lifted from the net with the
citation):
I am trying here to prevent anyone saying the really foolish thing that
people often say about Him: "I'm ready to accept Jesus as a great moral
teacher, but I don't accept His claim to be God." That is the one thing we
must not say. A man who is merely a man and said the sort of things Jesus
said would not be a great moral teacher. He would either be a lunatic - on
the level with the man who says he is a poached egg - or else he would be
the Devil of Hell. You must make your choice. Either this man was, and is,
the Son of God: or else a madman or something worse. You can shut Him up for
a fool, you can spit at Him and kill Him as a demon; or you can fall at His
feet and call Him Lord and God. But let us not come with any patronizing
nonsense about His being a great human teacher. He has not left that open to
us. He did not intend to. (Mere Christianity [New York: Touchstone, 1996] ).
You can argue about the alternatives but the great teacher thing (in and of
itself) is not valid. Consistency is cracking the whip,...again.....
Cheers,
David Douglas
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<BLOCKQUOTE>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D833385012-09082003>Visionaries:</SPAN></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D833385012-09082003>Donovan writes:</SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D833385012-09082003></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D833385012-09082003>"</SPAN>Second false Premise: I =
did not=20
refer to Jesus as a supreme being, just as a great mind.<SPAN=20
class=3D833385012-09082003>"</SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><EM><FONT color=3D#000080></FONT></EM> </DIV>
<DIV><EM><SPAN class=3D833385012-09082003><FONT color=3D#000080>Ah, =
yes. The=20
"Jesus was great teacher [mind]" argument. And almost=20
invariably put forth by those who ignore virtually =
all His=20
pronouncements and pay lip service to a few (often out of context =
with=20
the whole of his teaching). If I said the things Jesus said, you =
would=20
dismiss me as a nut--as well you should. =
</FONT></SPAN></EM></DIV>
<DIV><EM><SPAN class=3D833385012-09082003><FONT=20
color=3D#000080></FONT></SPAN></EM> </DIV>
<DIV><EM><SPAN class=3D833385012-09082003><FONT color=3D#000080>How =
would you feel=20
if I told my followers (speaking loosely):</FONT></SPAN></EM></DIV>
<DIV><EM><SPAN class=3D833385012-09082003><FONT=20
color=3D#000080></FONT></SPAN></EM><EM><SPAN =
class=3D833385012-09082003><FONT=20
color=3D#000080></FONT></SPAN></EM> </DIV>
<DIV><EM><SPAN class=3D833385012-09082003><FONT color=3D#000080>"All =
the=20
scriptures were about me" (Jesus said this after he rose =
from the=20
grave after a Roman execution).</FONT></SPAN></EM></DIV>
<DIV><EM><SPAN class=3D833385012-09082003><FONT color=3D#000080>"If =
you've seen me=20
you've seen God (the Father)"</FONT></SPAN></EM></DIV>
<DIV><EM><SPAN class=3D833385012-09082003><FONT color=3D#000080>"Go =
and make=20
disciples of all the nations" (note the intolerance for the =
preservation=20
of a diversity of other practices).</FONT></SPAN></EM></DIV>
<DIV><EM><SPAN class=3D833385012-09082003><FONT color=3D#000080>"The =
gates of hell=20
shall not prevail against my church" (oh, the=20
intolerance).</FONT></SPAN></EM></DIV>
<DIV><EM><SPAN class=3D833385012-09082003><FONT =
color=3D#000080>"People will want=20
to kill you for following me." </FONT></SPAN></EM></DIV>
<DIV><EM><SPAN class=3D833385012-09082003><FONT color=3D#000080>"I am =
the way, the=20
truth, and the life."</FONT></SPAN></EM></DIV>
<DIV><EM><SPAN class=3D833385012-09082003><FONT=20
color=3D#000080></FONT></SPAN></EM> </DIV>
<DIV><EM><SPAN class=3D833385012-09082003><FONT color=3D#000080>I =
could go=20
on. Which of those things (and all the others) do you want to =
take=20
seriously? And if you pick and choose what to believe about =
this=20
"great mind"--who is the greater teacher?</FONT></SPAN></EM></DIV>
<DIV><EM><FONT color=3D#000080></FONT></EM> </DIV>
<DIV><EM><FONT color=3D#000080></FONT></EM> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D833385012-09082003><FONT color=3D#000080><EM>I =
could go on, but=20
CS Lewis said it better (lifted from the net with the=20
citation):</EM></FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><EM><FONT color=3D#000080></FONT></EM> </DIV>
<DIV>I am trying here to prevent anyone saying the really foolish =
thing that=20
people often say about Him: "I'm ready to accept Jesus as a great =
moral=20
teacher, but I don't accept His claim to be God." That is the one =
thing we=20
must not say. A man who is merely a man and said the sort of things =
Jesus said=20
would not be a great moral teacher. He would either be a lunatic - on =
the=20
level with the man who says he is a poached egg - or else he would be =
the=20
Devil of Hell. You must make your choice. Either this man was, and is, =
the Son=20
of God: or else a madman or something worse. You can shut Him up for a =
fool,=20
you can spit at Him and kill Him as a demon; or you can fall at His =
feet and=20
call Him Lord and God. But let us not come with any patronizing =
nonsense about=20
His being a great human teacher. He has not left that open to us. He =
did not=20
intend to. (<I>Mere Christianity</I> [New York: Touchstone, 1996]=20
).</DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>
<DIV><EM><SPAN class=3D833385012-09082003><FONT color=3D#000080>You can =
argue about=20
the alternatives but the great teacher thing (in and of itself) is not=20
valid. Consistency is cracking the=20
whip,...again.....</FONT></SPAN></EM></DIV>
<DIV><EM><FONT color=3D#000080></FONT></EM> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D833385012-09082003><FONT=20
color=3D#000080><EM>Cheers,</EM></FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D833385012-09082003><EM><FONT=20
color=3D#000080></FONT></EM></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D833385012-09082003><EM><FONT color=3D#000080>David=20
Douglas</FONT></EM></SPAN></DIV></BODY></HTML>
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