[Vision2020] Who Killed California?
Donovan Arnold
donovanarnold@hotmail.com
Tue, 05 Aug 2003 15:48:07 -0700
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<P>Tim,</P>
<P>I was not advocating the old "Love it or Leave it" philosophy. I was advocating the old "don't be a hypocrite" philosophy.</P></DIV>
<P>I understand that Pat Buchanan was not directly blaming the Mexicans for the destroyed economy. I know Buchanan would never give Mexicans enough intelligence to do it themselves. He more or less treats them like the sheep that graze the fields to the roots destroying the grass permenintly and the rich white guys as the farmers that let them onto the field. Sorry, don't buy it.</P>
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<P>None-Indians and none-Mexicans are now nearly two out of three people in California. I find them the immigration hazard that destroyed California. If 2/3 people got out of California it would be just fine and you can't disagree with that. </P>
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<P>The fact is Mexicans that immigrate to the United States are doing far more for the country than most others. And certainly less damage to the economy than other legal immigrants. Did you know that the United States imports highly trained Europeans that work for half the wages of their American counterparts. These are real jobs. The Mexican immigrations are not taking jobs that pay $100,000 a year for just $45,000. They are taking the jobs nobody will do for $5.25 an hour. If illegal immigrants stopped coming into the country then two things would happen. First, millions of Hispanics would be starving in Mexico. These immigrates live here for about 6 months and then go back to feed their families. Second, the food prices would more then double, making it cheaper to import food, which would be done, and farmers would go bankrupt. The only changes I would like to make is that the immigrants are given decent places to stay and healthy food and water.</P>
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<P>You are incorrect about the freebies. Illegal immigrates are given medical treatment only incases of emergency. To advocate otherwise would say that we should just let them die in the streets, I think that would be horrible. Food banks are given to everyone, and are usually donated by private citizens.</P>
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<P>You are correct that free trade does destroy businesses. But it also helps others. In fact, 1/3 of US business is done overseas. Even more important istariffs% of all new business is conducted with foreign countries. So image what type of impact creating tarrifs would make on US Businesses. If we raise our tarrifs, they raise theirs, and all profit is sucked out of the system and goes to the governments of the countries and not the businesses that earned the profit, which prevents growth and job prosperity. I would stick with taxing the companies on profits only.</P>
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<P>I would be pretty angry is I owned stock in a company that did $10 billion in sales with China and the US Government slapped a tarriff on China and they did the same back and my business had to give 1/2 the profit to the Chinese government, wouldn't you be.</P>
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<P>No, Buchanan's idea doesn't work unless you have a monopoly on almost all products. Every time the US Government has put tarrifs on imports then inflation goes way up and it ends up hurting the world economy.</P>
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<P>Donovan J Arnold</P>
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<P><BR><BR> </P>
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<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>>From: Tim Lohrmann <TIMLOHR@YAHOO.COM>
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<DIV></DIV>>To: Donovan Arnold <DONOVANARNOLD@HOTMAIL.COM>
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<DIV></DIV>>CC: vision2020@moscow.com
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>>Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Who Killed California?
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<DIV></DIV>>Date: Tue, 5 Aug 2003 09:14:10 -0700 (PDT)
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<DIV></DIV>>
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<DIV></DIV>>Donovan,
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<DIV></DIV>> I was a little surprised to see you advocating
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<DIV></DIV>>the old "America--Love It of Leave It" philosophy. Is
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<DIV></DIV>>it a retro thing? That WAS big in the late '60s and
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<DIV></DIV>>early '70s I understand.
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<DIV></DIV>>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>> Oh well.
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<DIV></DIV>> I also disagree that Pat is attacking a weaker
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<DIV></DIV>>group of people. The US Government as run by both Bush
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<DIV></DIV>>and one Clinton administration can hardly be
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<DIV></DIV>>considered weaker than him.
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<DIV></DIV>>
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<DIV></DIV>> And that's who he blames this mess on the
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<DIV></DIV>>government. He's not blaming the illegal immigrants
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<DIV></DIV>>themselves---just the governmental policies that
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<DIV></DIV>>caused this mess. That's clear from the column.
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<DIV></DIV>> It's amazing when people who are breaking the law
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<DIV></DIV>>by coming into this country suddenly have access to
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<DIV></DIV>>free health care, education, food etc. etc.
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<DIV></DIV>> Is this a reward for their crime?
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<DIV></DIV>> Many illegal immigrants have visited informational
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<DIV></DIV>>offices in their own countries that show them in
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<DIV></DIV>>advance exactly which offices to go to in order to
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<DIV></DIV>>take advantage of all the freebies. Who can blame them
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<DIV></DIV>>for coming here and taking advantage of it? I'm sure
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<DIV></DIV>>most of us would.
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<DIV></DIV>> But can you imagine the effect on Medi-Cal, the
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<DIV></DIV>>state education budget, law enforcement and etc.?
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<DIV></DIV>> And what about the effect of the people of
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<DIV></DIV>>California's faith in the democratic process when they
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<DIV></DIV>>are not allowed to stop these goings on as much as
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<DIV></DIV>>they try?
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<DIV></DIV>>
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<DIV></DIV>> You're absolutely correct that there are other
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<DIV></DIV>>factors than the one mentioned in the column(9/11 etc)
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<DIV></DIV>>that have had an effect on consumer spending. But its
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<DIV></DIV>>undeniable that Free Trade and unrestricted/illegal
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<DIV></DIV>>immigration have had a huge negative effect on
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<DIV></DIV>>California and many other states. The effect on wages
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<DIV></DIV>>isn't confined to the agricultural sector at all.
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<DIV></DIV>> In CA and many other states a huge percentage of
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<DIV></DIV>>construction labor is done by illegal immigrants. That
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<DIV></DIV>>used to be a field where people could make a good
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<DIV></DIV>>living in this country. They could start as laborers,
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<DIV></DIV>>learn skills and work their way up, but that's denied
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<DIV></DIV>>to American workers in many areas. This is but one
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<DIV></DIV>>example of the suppression of wages by illegal
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<DIV></DIV>>immigration. And of course one of the major negative
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<DIV></DIV>>effects is, as mentioned above, on the social service,
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<DIV></DIV>>education, law enforcement, and penal budgets.
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<DIV></DIV>>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>> And if you don't believe that unfair and so-called
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<DIV></DIV>>"Free Trade" hasn't had a devastating impact on the
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<DIV></DIV>>areas mentioned in the article, you're simply ignoring
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<DIV></DIV>>reality.
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<DIV></DIV>> And here's a question for you. How much
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<DIV></DIV>>immigration would be enough?
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<DIV></DIV>> There are currently 1 million LEGAL immigrants
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<DIV></DIV>>allowed into this country every year. To put that in
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<DIV></DIV>>perspective, the 2002 Census estimate for the
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<DIV></DIV>>population of Seattle was 570,000. So, in other words
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<DIV></DIV>>LEGAL IMMIGRATION--each year, every year--equals very
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<DIV></DIV>>TWICE the city of Seattle. EVERY YEAR! Been to Seattle
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<DIV></DIV>>lately? Pretty crowded place, huh?
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<DIV></DIV>>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>> Of course no one knows how many ILLEGAL immigrants
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<DIV></DIV>>come in each year. I've seen estimates ranging from
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<DIV></DIV>>2-5 million illegals per year. Some stay and some come
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<DIV></DIV>>back and forth. In any event there are millions upon
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<DIV></DIV>>millions of illegals here in the country right now.
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<DIV></DIV>>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>> And anyone questioning immigration and illegal
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<DIV></DIV>>immigration is xenophobic?
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<DIV></DIV>> I don't think so. No, it's nothing like a phobia.
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<DIV></DIV>> It's a simple realization that this country can't
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<DIV></DIV>>keep going on supporting this huge influx of people
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<DIV></DIV>>indefinitely. California is finding that out for all
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<DIV></DIV>>to see.
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<DIV></DIV>> TL
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<DIV></DIV>>--- Donovan Arnold <DONOVANARNOLD@HOTMAIL.COM>wrote:
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<DIV></DIV>>---------------------------------
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<DIV></DIV>>Tim,
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<DIV></DIV>>Oh, he is not my cup of tea alright.
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<DIV></DIV>>Pat Hitler, I mean, Pat Buchanan, (why I mix the two
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<DIV></DIV>>up I don't know) is only correct about three things.
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<DIV></DIV>>He is right it not the fault of Gov. Davis, he is
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<DIV></DIV>>right it is the fault of US Government, and the fault
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<DIV></DIV>>of Immigration.
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<DIV></DIV>>
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<DIV></DIV>>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>>But he has the wrong immigration of people mixed up.
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<DIV></DIV>>It was not the influx of Mexicans that is the problem.
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<DIV></DIV>>It is the fault of an influx of Europeans. Ya see
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<DIV></DIV>>m'kay, Mexicans and Native American Indians had
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<DIV></DIV>>California for about 10-16,000 years before the
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<DIV></DIV>>immigrants of Europeans came over. The land and
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<DIV></DIV>>economy was just fine for that amount of time. Then
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<DIV></DIV>>other people came into California, and less than 150
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<DIV></DIV>>years of occupation the soil, environment, and economy
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<DIV></DIV>>has gone to sh*t. Now, I tend to think the Mexicans
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<DIV></DIV>>and Indians have a better track record. I am willing
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<DIV></DIV>>to bet that if the United States withdrew from
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<DIV></DIV>>California for another 10,000-16,000 years it would
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<DIV></DIV>>recover nicely and be ready for another 150 years of
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<DIV></DIV>>European abuse and raping of the land.
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<DIV></DIV>>Now I know that the Mexicans had the audacity to do
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<DIV></DIV>>something like be born in California before Europeans
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<DIV></DIV>>even knew it existed, but I don't think they are the
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<DIV></DIV>>ones responsible for the failing of the United States
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<DIV></DIV>>and California economy. Mexicans picking oranges in
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<DIV></DIV>>some farmer's field making $2 an hour did not fly two
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<DIV></DIV>>airplanes into the World Trade Center. They didn't
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<DIV></DIV>>forge and fake the income earnings of Enron, Adelphia,
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<DIV></DIV>>and a whole host of others. They didn't engage in
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<DIV></DIV>>inside trading like Martha Steward. They didn't empty
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<DIV></DIV>>the Colorado River and drain California of it's
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<DIV></DIV>>electricity, they didn't write the budget or tax code.
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<DIV></DIV>>They didn't even withdraw their millions from the
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<DIV></DIV>>stock market or stop supporting the airline industry.
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<DIV></DIV>>What Buchanan is doing is attempting to attack a
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<DIV></DIV>>weaker group of people that have little or no
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<DIV></DIV>>political ability to withstand such attacks. It is
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<DIV></DIV>>easy to blame the little poor guy for the mistakes of
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<DIV></DIV>>the rich, powerful, greedy, and corrupt.
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<DIV></DIV>>
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<DIV></DIV>>Pat Buchanan is the biggest causation and beneficiary
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<DIV></DIV>>of immigration and free trade. It was the
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<DIV></DIV>>administration that he was a part of, Reagan's, that
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<DIV></DIV>>allowed for the largest immigration of Hispanics in
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<DIV></DIV>>the history of the United States. It was also he that
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<DIV></DIV>>was able to get a replacement value in his heart (yes,
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<DIV></DIV>>I know he does have actually have one) because of free
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<DIV></DIV>>trade policies with Japan.
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<DIV></DIV>>
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<DIV></DIV>>If this man has such a problem with immigration, he
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<DIV></DIV>>should move back to Europe, if he has a problem with
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<DIV></DIV>>free trade, he should give back his heart, after all,
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<DIV></DIV>>he hasn't even used it in a while anyway.
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<DIV></DIV>>Donovan J Arnold
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<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>> >From: Tim Lohrmann
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<DIV></DIV>>
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<DIV></DIV>>
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<DIV></DIV>>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>> >To: vision2020@moscow.com
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<DIV></DIV>>
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<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>> >Subject: [Vision2020] Who Killed California?
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<DIV></DIV>> >Date: Tue, 5 Aug 2003 00:02:26 -0700 (PDT)
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<DIV></DIV>> >Visionaries,
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<DIV></DIV>> >Even if he's not your cup of tea politically, you
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<DIV></DIV>> >gotta admit that Pat tells it like it is about "Free"
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<DIV></DIV>> >trade and Immigration.
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<DIV></DIV>> > TL
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<DIV></DIV>> >Who Killed California?
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<DIV></DIV>> > >
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<DIV></DIV>> > > By Patrick J. Buchanan
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<DIV></DIV>> > > With Gov. Gray Davis facing recall, a budget $38
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<DIV></DIV>> > > billion in deficit, and a bond rating dropped
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<DIV></DIV>> >notches by Standard & Poor's to near junk-bond
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<DIV></DIV>> > > status, the lowest of all 50 states, the Golden
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<DIV></DIV>> > > State is no more.
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<DIV></DIV>> > > Who killed the goose that laid the golden eggs?
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<DIV></DIV>> > > Certainly, Davis, who misled voters about the
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<DIV></DIV>> > > gravity of his budget crisis in 2002, and won
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<DIV></DIV>> >re-election by demonizing his GOP rivals, deserves
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<DIV></DIV>> >20
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<DIV></DIV>> > > percent approval rating. But Gray Davis did not
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<DIV></DIV>>kill
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<DIV></DIV>> > > California.
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<DIV></DIV>> > > The United States government did. For what killed
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<DIV></DIV>> > > California as the golden land was massive and
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<DIV></DIV>> >unrestricted immigration from the Third World, an
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<DIV></DIV>> > > unrepelled invasion from Mexico, and a failure to
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<DIV></DIV>> > > protect the U.S. manufacturing base and the wages
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<DIV></DIV>> >America's workers.
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<DIV></DIV>> > > During and after World War II, California became a
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<DIV></DIV>> > > bastion of our defense, aerospace, auto and TV
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<DIV></DIV>> >industries. Hundreds of thousands were hired to
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<DIV></DIV>> > > the highest-paid manufacturing workers on earth,
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<DIV></DIV>> > > giving California the world's highest standard of
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<DIV></DIV>> >living. The average California wage once stood at 130
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<DIV></DIV>> > > percent of the average U.S. wage.
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<DIV></DIV>> > > In the 1970s and 1980s, however, Japan, a free
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<DIV></DIV>> > > on America's defense, began to engage in predatory
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<DIV></DIV>> >trade, attacking and killing, one by one, U.S.
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<DIV></DIV>> >industries and capturing U.S. markets with subsidized
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<DIV></DIV>> >exports.
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<DIV></DIV>> > >
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<DIV></DIV>> > > California suffered first. Our TV industry was
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<DIV></DIV>>wiped
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<DIV></DIV>> > > out. Our auto industry was reeling when Ronald
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<DIV></DIV>>
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<DIV></DIV>> >Reagan stepped in to impose quotas on Japanese cars.
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<DIV></DIV>> > > Reagan also intervened to save the semiconductor
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<DIV></DIV>> > > industry, Big Steel and Harley-Davidson. Unlike
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<DIV></DIV>> >today's free-trade fanatics, Ronald Reagan put
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<DIV></DIV>>America
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<DIV></DIV>>
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<DIV></DIV>> > > first.
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<DIV></DIV>> > >
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<DIV></DIV>> > > But it was under Bush-Clinton-Bush that California
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<DIV></DIV>> > > was irrevocably sacrificed to the gods of the
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<DIV></DIV>>Global
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<DIV></DIV>> >Economy.
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<DIV></DIV>> > >
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<DIV></DIV>> > > During Bush I's term, millions of Mexicans began
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<DIV></DIV>>to
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<DIV></DIV>> > > flee north to seek jobs and take advantage of the
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<DIV></DIV>>
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<DIV></DIV>>
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<DIV></DIV>> >health care, welfare and free education American
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<DIV></DIV>>
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<DIV></DIV>> > > citizens provided for their people. For one-third
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<DIV></DIV>>of
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<DIV></DIV>> > > the illegals, California became the destination of
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<DIV></DIV>> >choice.
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<DIV></DIV>> > >
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<DIV></DIV>> > > What the U.S. government should have done was
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<DIV></DIV>> > > obvious, and was demanded by Americans: Enforce
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<DIV></DIV>>our
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<DIV></DIV>> >immigration laws, halt the invasion, restrict
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<DIV></DIV>>
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<DIV></DIV>>
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<DIV></DIV>> > > immigration from the Third World. But America's
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<DIV></DIV>> > > politicians - out of fear of being brande
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<DIV></DIV>>xenophobic
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<DIV></DIV>> >and to curry favor with Big Business, which
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<DIV></DIV>> > > benefits from an endless supply of low-wage labor
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<DIV></DIV>>-
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<DIV></DIV>> >did almost nothing to protect America.
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<DIV></DIV>> > >
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<DIV></DIV>> > > Californians tried to defend their state. As
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<DIV></DIV>> > > illegals poured in by the hundreds of thousands
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<DIV></DIV>>
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<DIV></DIV>> >yearly, they passed Proposition 187, denying social
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<DIV></DIV>>
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<DIV></DIV>> > > welfare benefits to illegal aliens who had broken
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<DIV></DIV>>
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<DIV></DIV>> > > the law and broken into the United States.
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<DIV></DIV>> > >
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<DIV></DIV>> > > The open-borders coalition, repudiated and routed,
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<DIV></DIV>> > > ran to a federal judge, who annulled the voters'
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<DIV></DIV>> >victory. Davis then refused to appeal the overturning
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<DIV></DIV>> > > of 187 to the Supreme Court. Hispanic voters
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<DIV></DIV>> > > rewarded him in 2002, and California state and
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<DIV></DIV>>local
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<DIV></DIV>> >budgets continued to hemorrhage.
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<DIV></DIV>> > >
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<DIV></DIV>> > > By the 1990s, an exodus of taxpayers had begun.
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<DIV></DIV>>Fed
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<DIV></DIV>> > > up with being fleeced to subsidize illegal aliens,
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<DIV></DIV>> >Californians began leaving for Nevada, Idaho,
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<DIV></DIV>> > > Arizona and Colorado. Two million native-born
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<DIV></DIV>>
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<DIV></DIV>> > > Californians left the state in
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<DIV></DIV>> > > the 1990s, as immigrants, legal and illegal, sent
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<DIV></DIV>> > > poverty rates soaring in Los Angeles, Riverside,
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<DIV></DIV>>San
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<DIV></DIV>> >Bernardino and Orange counties.
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<DIV></DIV>> > >
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<DIV></DIV>> > > This, then, is what killed California:
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<DIV></DIV>> > >
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<DIV></DIV>> > > First, open borders. By failing to enforce our
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<DIV></DIV>>
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<DIV></DIV>> > > immigration laws, America now hosts 31 million
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>>legal
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<DIV></DIV>>
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<DIV></DIV>>
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<DIV></DIV>> >immigrants and their children and 10 million
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<DIV></DIV>>
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<DIV></DIV>> > > illegals, most of them net tax consumers.
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<DIV></DIV>>California
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<DIV></DIV>> > > got the lion's share.
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<DIV></DIV>> > >
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<DIV></DIV>> > > Second, global free trade and the trade deficits
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>>it
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<DIV></DIV>> > > produced, now running at an annual rate of $562
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<DIV></DIV>>
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<DIV></DIV>> >billion in May. This has killed millions of
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<DIV></DIV>> > > manufacturing jobs, as thousands of companies
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<DIV></DIV>>closed
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<DIV></DIV>> > > factories here and shifted plants to Mexico, Asia
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<DIV></DIV>> >and China.
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<DIV></DIV>> > >
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<DIV></DIV>> > > The Third Worldization of California is now far
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<DIV></DIV>>
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<DIV></DIV>>
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<DIV></DIV>> > > advanced. Yet those responsible, Bush Republicans
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<DIV></DIV>>as
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<DIV></DIV>>
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<DIV></DIV>> >well as Clinton Democrats, still cannot
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<DIV></DIV>>
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<DIV></DIV>> > > see what they have done to our country.
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<DIV></DIV>>
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<DIV></DIV>> > >
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<DIV></DIV>>
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<DIV></DIV>>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>>
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<DIV></DIV>> > > But what is happening in California is not
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<DIV></DIV>>confined
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<DIV></DIV>>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>>
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<DIV></DIV>>
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<DIV></DIV>> > > to California. It is happening across America.
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<DIV></DIV>>
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<DIV></DIV>>
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<DIV></DIV>>
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<DIV></DIV>> >Unless we elect a president who will enforce our
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<DIV></DIV>>
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<DIV></DIV>>
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<DIV></DIV>> > > immigration laws and defend our borders, unless we
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<DIV></DIV>>
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<DIV></DIV>>
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<DIV></DIV>>
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<DIV></DIV>> > > find a Congress that will jettison the free-trade
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<DIV></DIV>>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>> >madness that is denuding America of her
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<DIV></DIV>>manufacturing,
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<DIV></DIV>>
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<DIV></DIV>>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>> > > what has happened to California will happen here.
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<DIV></DIV>>
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<DIV></DIV>>
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<DIV></DIV>> > >
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<DIV></DIV>> > > President Bush appears oblivious to it all - but
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<DIV></DIV>>
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<DIV></DIV>>
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<DIV></DIV>> > > then, so did his father
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<DIV></DIV>>
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<DIV></DIV>> > > before him.
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<DIV></DIV>> > >
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<DIV></DIV>> >
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<DIV></DIV>>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>> >__________________________________
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<DIV></DIV>>
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<DIV></DIV>>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>> >Do you Yahoo!?
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<DIV></DIV>> >_____________________________________________________
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