[Vision2020] Re: Second coming of Jesus

[Ralph Nielsen]

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>
> From: Douglas Stambler <ccm_moscow@yahoo.com>
> Date: Sat Aug 2, 2003  3:07:37 PM US/Pacific
> To: Ralph Nielsen <nielsen@uidaho.edu>, vision2020@moscow.com
> Subject: [Vision2020] Second coming of Jesus: Response to R. Nielsen
>
>
> Ralph:
> =A0
> Christ is real and alive today!=A0 There's no doubt about that.=A0 And=20=

> there is nothing that anyone can do to convince you of that, you have=20=

> to try it yourself.=A0 Ask Jesus to come into your life today, and you=20=

> will notice that your life improves, and that your burdens will be=20
> lifted, too.=A0 No one knows exactly when Christ will come again, and =
I=20
> don't think that you really care about that.=A0 I think what you're=20
> after is for God to show Himself to you.
> =A0
> Again, ask Christ into your life today, and you will feel the=20
> difference.
> =A0
> In Christ,
> Douglas Stambler

RALPH NIELSEN
	I'm talking about the historical Jesus who was supposedly =
carried up=20
into the sky and who promised to come down out of the sky again while=20
some of his contemporaries were still alive. Douglas, you are talking=20
about an imaginary companion.

>
RALPH NIELSEN (earlier)
> The question of the Second Coming of Jesus becomes a "doctrinal" issue
> only to those who refuse to face the fact that both Paul, the earliest
> writer in the New Testament, and most of the others as well, looked =
for
> an imminent return of Jesus out of the clouds while nearly all of them
> were still alive. Dale's claim that the Parousia was in two parts, =
with
> a judgment in the year 70, simply doesn't agree with the book of
> Revelation, for example, where the judgment is yet to come. Most
> scholars agree that Revelation was written around the year 100.
> They also agree that the epistle of 2 Peter was not written by Peter,
> but was a late attempt at damage control when Jesus had not yet shown
> up as predicted. And ever since then, Christians looking for a magical
> solution to all the world's troubles have had to pretend that Jesus,
> Paul, et. al., either did not mean what they said or did not say what
> they meant. Dale is correct that many books have been written over the
> centuries attempting to rationalize this fact.

> RALPH NIELSEN=A0
> >The question of the Second Coming of Jesus becomes a "doctrinal"=20
> issue only
> >to those who refuse to face the fact that both Paul, the earliest=20
> writer in
> >the New Testament, and most of the others as well, looked for an=20
> imminent
> >return of Jesus out of the clouds while nearly all of them were still=20=

> alive.
> >Dale's claim that the Parousia was in two parts, with a judgment in=20=

> the year
> >70, simply doesn't agree with the book of Revelation, for example,=20
> where the
> >judgment is yet to come. Most scholars agree that Revelation was=20
> written
> >around the year 100.

> From: "Dale Courtney" <dale@courtneys.us>
> Nielsen, you still have a lot more homework to do.
> =A0
> First, your "late date" of 100 AD is held by "some" contemporary=20
> researchers. However, the vast majority of scholars thru history have=20=

> disagreed with you and your 100 AD date. In fact, the vast majority=20
> have dated Revelation before 70 AD. If you would like, I can provide=20=

> you (off-list) with a 15-page bibliography listing scholars who have=20=

> disagreed with you over the past 2,000 years. Bottom line: all the=20
> internal and external evidence points to an early date (prior to 70=20
> AD). The reason for pushing the date to later isn't for scholarly=20
> purposes but to support a different agenda.
> =A0
> Second, you need to study up more on Hebrew apocalyptic literature and=20=

> see what it means to come in the clouds. Understanding apocalyptic=20
> genre is not like reading a Harry Potter book.
> =A0
> Third, there is a significant difference between a coming in judgment=20=

> and a physical coming. That distinction shouldn't be lost on you.=20
> Again, I refer you to the apocalyptic writings of the Hebrew Prophets=20=

> where they speak of judgment comings.
> =A0
> Finally, if you are *really* interested in knowing, contact me=20
> off-list -- vision2020 is not a forum for theological debates. Since=20=

> you haven't done so, I'm assuming that you don't *really*=A0care to=20
> know, and that your agenda lies elsewhere.

RALPH NIELSEN
	Recent scholars generally agree that Revelation was written =
around the=20
year 95 (Adela Yarbro Collins, David E. Aune (both of whom I have=20
personally contacted) and others). But whenever it was written there is=20=

no doubt that Jesus, Paul, and many early Christians believed that what=20=

we call the first century was supposed to have been the last century.=20
But nothing happened, the prophecies failed, just as similar=20
prophecies, held by the Millerites, Latter-day Saints, and Jehovah's=20
Witnesses have also failed. I prophesy that Jesus will not come again=20
in your time or mine either. No matter how many Left Behind books or=20
Late Great Planet Earth books are written, he will not show up.
	Incidentally, Dale, a recent study concludes that frequent=20
masturbation by young men in their twenties helps to prevent prostate=20
problems in their later years.

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<excerpt><bold>

From: </bold>Douglas Stambler <<ccm_moscow@yahoo.com>

<bold>Date: </bold>Sat Aug 2, 2003  3:07:37 PM US/Pacific

<bold>To: </bold>Ralph Nielsen <<nielsen@uidaho.edu>,
vision2020@moscow.com

<bold>Subject: </bold>[Vision2020] Second coming of Jesus: Response to
R. Nielsen



Ralph:

=A0

Christ is real and alive today!=A0 There's no doubt about that.=A0 And
there is nothing that anyone can do to convince you of that, you have
to try it yourself.=A0 Ask Jesus to come into your life today, and you
will notice that your life improves, and that your burdens will be
lifted, too.=A0 No one knows exactly when Christ will come again, and I
don't think that you really care about that.=A0 I think what you're
after is for God to show Himself to you.

=A0

Again, ask Christ into your life today, and you will feel the
difference.

=A0

In Christ,

Douglas Stambler

</excerpt>

RALPH NIELSEN

	I'm talking about the historical Jesus who was supposedly =
carried up
into the sky and who promised to come down out of the sky again while
some of his contemporaries were still alive. Douglas, you are talking
about an imaginary companion.=20


<excerpt>

</excerpt>RALPH NIELSEN (earlier)

<excerpt>The question of the Second Coming of Jesus becomes a
"doctrinal" issue

only to those who refuse to face the fact that both Paul, the earliest

writer in the New Testament, and most of the others as well, looked for

an imminent return of Jesus out of the clouds while nearly all of them

were still alive. Dale's claim that the Parousia was in two parts, with

a judgment in the year 70, simply doesn't agree with the book of

Revelation, for example, where the judgment is yet to come. Most

scholars agree that Revelation was written around the year 100.

They also agree that the epistle of 2 Peter was not written by Peter,

but was a late attempt at damage control when Jesus had not yet shown

up as predicted. And ever since then, Christians looking for a magical

solution to all the world's troubles have had to pretend that Jesus,

Paul, et. al., either did not mean what they said or did not say what

they meant. Dale is correct that many books have been written over the

centuries attempting to rationalize this fact.

</excerpt>

<excerpt>RALPH NIELSEN=A0

>The question of the Second Coming of Jesus becomes a "doctrinal"
issue only

>to those who refuse to face the fact that both Paul, the earliest
writer in

>the New Testament, and most of the others as well, looked for an
imminent

>return of Jesus out of the clouds while nearly all of them were still
alive.

>Dale's claim that the Parousia was in two parts, with a judgment in
the year

>70, simply doesn't agree with the book of Revelation, for example,
where the

>judgment is yet to come. Most scholars agree that Revelation was
written

>around the year 100.

</excerpt>

<excerpt><bold>From: </bold>"Dale Courtney" <<dale@courtneys.us>

Nielsen, you still have a lot more homework to do.

=A0

First, your "late date" of 100 AD is held by "some" contemporary
researchers. However, the vast majority of scholars thru history have
disagreed with you and your 100 AD date. In fact, the vast majority
have dated Revelation before 70 AD. If you would like, I can provide
you (off-list) with a 15-page bibliography listing scholars who have
disagreed with you over the past 2,000 years. Bottom line: all the
internal and external evidence points to an early date (prior to 70
AD). The reason for pushing the date to later isn't for scholarly
purposes but to support a different agenda.

=A0

Second, you need to study up more on Hebrew apocalyptic literature and
see what it means to come in the clouds. Understanding apocalyptic
genre is not like reading a Harry Potter book.

=A0

Third, there is a significant difference between a coming in judgment
and a physical coming. That distinction shouldn't be lost on you.
Again, I refer you to the apocalyptic writings of the Hebrew Prophets
where they speak of judgment comings.

=A0

Finally, if you are *really* interested in knowing, contact me
off-list -- vision2020 is not a forum for theological debates. Since
you haven't done so, I'm assuming that you don't *really*=A0care to
know, and that your agenda lies elsewhere.

</excerpt>

RALPH NIELSEN

	Recent scholars generally agree that Revelation was written =
around
the year 95 (Adela Yarbro Collins, David E. Aune (both of whom I have
personally contacted) and others). But whenever it was written there
is no doubt that Jesus, Paul, and many early Christians believed that
what we call the first century was supposed to have been the last
century. But nothing happened, the prophecies failed, just as similar
prophecies, held by the Millerites, Latter-day Saints, and Jehovah's
Witnesses have also failed. I prophesy that Jesus will not come again
in your time or mine either. No matter how many Left Behind books or
Late Great Planet Earth books are written, he will not show up.

	Incidentally, Dale, a recent study concludes that frequent
masturbation by young men in their twenties helps to prevent prostate
problems in their later years.


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