[Vision2020] Second coming of Jesus: Response to R. Nielsen
Douglas Stambler
ccm_moscow@yahoo.com
Sat, 2 Aug 2003 15:07:37 -0700 (PDT)
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Ralph:
Christ is real and alive today! There's no doubt about that. And there is nothing that anyone can do to convince you of that, you have to try it yourself. Ask Jesus to come into your life today, and you will notice that your life improves, and that your burdens will be lifted, too. No one knows exactly when Christ will come again, and I don't think that you really care about that. I think what you're after is for God to show Himself to you.
Again, ask Christ into your life today, and you will feel the difference.
In Christ,
Douglas Stambler
***********************************************************************************************
edu> wrote:
On Tuesday, July 29, 2003, at 05:46 PM, vision2020-request@moscow.com
wrote:
>> The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to
>> shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass;...
>> Rev. 1:1
>>
>> Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this
>> prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the
>> time is at hand.
>> Rev. 1:3
>>
>> Behold, I come quickly. Rev. 3:11
>>
>> And he said unto me, Seal not the sayings of the prophecy of this
>> book: for the time is at hand... He which testifieth these things
>> saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus.
>> Rev. 22:10, 20.
>>
>> But when they persecute you in this city, flee ye into another: for
>> verily I say unto you, Ye shall not have gone over the cities of
>> Israel, till the Son of man be come. Matt 10:23
>>
>>
>>
>> From: "Dale Courtney"
>> Date: Tue Jul 29, 2003 10:12:53 AM US/Pacific
>> To:
>> Subject: RE: [Vision2020] Re: Predictions for August 2003
>>
>>
>> Ralph,
>>
>> You're a hoot. Stambler is a false prophet and you falsely interpret
>> prophecies. Are you sure that he's not your son?
>>
>> Even a child can understand the difference between a "coming in
>> judgment" and a personal coming. There was a coming in judgment in 70
>> AD. All those prophecies you cited were fully fulfilled in the first
>> century, just as Christ said they would be.
>>
>> But then again, your mind has already chosen to embrace what your
>> heart believes. Enjoy your spiritual mastu... oh, never mind.
>>
>
> RALPH NIELSEN
> Dale, you forgot to show us where in the New Testament it
> distinguishes between what you call "a coming in judgment" and "a
> personal coming." You didn't get them from the text and you didn't get
> the idea from serious NT scholars. I have never heard of this kind of
> rationalization before.
>
>
> From: "Dale Courtney"
> Date: Tue Jul 29, 2003 3:33:25 PM US/Pacific
> To:
> Subject: RE: [Vision2020] Re: Predictions for 1st century C.E.
>
>
> Ralph,
>
> Then you need to get out and smell the coffee more often. These
> charges are not novel with you. Bertrand Russell tried them long ago.
> However, they were not new with him either; in fact, they were
> effectively argued against centuries ago.
>
> How funny we think that we find new questions that no one has asked
> for the last 2,000 years. Very provincial of us...
>
> Vision2020 is not a forum for discussing Christian doctrine, so I'm
> not going to tutor you here. If you want a reading list that discusses
> what you call a "novel" (but what is a historical) distinction between
> a "coming in judgment" and a "physical coming", contact me off-line
> and I'll give you more references that you have years left to read.
>
> Best,
> Dale
>
The question of the Second Coming of Jesus becomes a "doctrinal" issue
only to those who refuse to face the fact that both Paul, the earliest
writer in the New Testament, and most of the others as well, looked for
an imminent return of Jesus out of the clouds while nearly all of them
were still alive. Dale's claim that the Parousia was in two parts, with
a judgment in the year 70, simply doesn't agree with the book of
Revelation, for example, where the judgment is yet to come. Most
scholars agree that Revelation was written around the year 100.
They also agree that the epistle of 2 Peter was not written by Peter,
but was a late attempt at damage control when Jesus had not yet shown
up as predicted. And ever since then, Christians looking for a magical
solution to all the world's troubles have had to pretend that Jesus,
Paul, et. al., either did not mean what they said or did not say what
they meant. Dale is correct that many books have been written over the
centuries attempting to rationalize this fact.
Ralph Nielsen
---------------------------------
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<DIV>Ralph:</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Christ is real and alive today! There's no doubt about that. And there is nothing that anyone can do to convince you of that, you have to try it yourself. Ask Jesus to come into your life today, and you will notice that your life improves, and that your burdens will be lifted, too. No one knows exactly when Christ will come again, and I don't think that you really care about that. I think what you're after is for God to show Himself to you.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Again, ask Christ into your life today, and you will feel the difference.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>In Christ,</DIV>
<DIV>Douglas Stambler</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>***********************************************************************************************<BR><BR><B><I>edu></I></B> wrote:</DIV>
<DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #1010ff 2px solid; WIDTH: 100%"><BR>On Tuesday, July 29, 2003, at 05:46 PM, vision2020-request@moscow.com <BR>wrote:<BR><BR><SNIPPED quotations other><BR>>> The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to<BR>>> shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass;...<BR>>> Rev. 1:1<BR>>><BR>>> Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this<BR>>> prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the<BR>>> time is at hand.<BR>>> Rev. 1:3<BR>>><BR>>> Behold, I come quickly. Rev. 3:11<BR>>><BR>>> And he said unto me, Seal not the sayings of the prophecy of this<BR>>> book: for the time is at hand... He which testifieth these things<BR>>> saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus.<BR>>> Rev. 22:10, 20.<BR>>><BR>>> But when they persecute you!
in this
city, flee ye into another: for<BR>>> verily I say unto you, Ye shall not have gone over the cities of<BR>>> Israel, till the Son of man be come. Matt 10:23<BR>>><BR>>><BR>>><BR>>> From: "Dale Courtney" <DALE@COURTNEYS.US><BR>>> Date: Tue Jul 29, 2003 10:12:53 AM US/Pacific<BR>>> To: <VISION2020@MOSCOW.COM><BR>>> Subject: RE: [Vision2020] Re: Predictions for August 2003<BR>>><BR>>><BR>>> Ralph,<BR>>> <BR>>> You're a hoot. Stambler is a false prophet and you falsely interpret <BR>>> prophecies. Are you sure that he's not your son?<BR>>> <BR>>> Even a child can understand the difference between a "coming in <BR>>> judgment" and a personal coming. There was a coming in judgment in 70 <BR>>> AD. All those prophecies you cited were fully fulfilled in the first <BR>>> century, just as Christ said they would be.<BR>>> <BR>>> But!
then
again, your mind has already chosen to embrace what your <BR>>> heart believes. Enjoy your spiritual mastu... oh, never mind.<BR>>><BR>><BR>> RALPH NIELSEN<BR>> Dale, you forgot to show us where in the New Testament it <BR>> distinguishes between what you call "a coming in judgment" and "a <BR>> personal coming." You didn't get them from the text and you didn't get <BR>> the idea from serious NT scholars. I have never heard of this kind of <BR>> rationalization before.<BR>><BR>><BR>> From: "Dale Courtney" <DALE@COURTNEYS.US><BR>> Date: Tue Jul 29, 2003 3:33:25 PM US/Pacific<BR>> To: <VISION2020@MOSCOW.COM><BR>> Subject: RE: [Vision2020] Re: Predictions for 1st century C.E.<BR>><BR>><BR>> Ralph,<BR>> <BR>> Then you need to get out and smell the coffee more often. These <BR>> charges are not novel with you. Bertrand Russell tried them long ago. <BR>> However, they were not new with him ei!
ther; in
fact, they were <BR>> effectively argued against centuries ago.<BR>> <BR>> How funny we think that we find new questions that no one has asked <BR>> for the last 2,000 years. Very provincial of us...<BR>> <BR>> Vision2020 is not a forum for discussing Christian doctrine, so I'm <BR>> not going to tutor you here. If you want a reading list that discusses <BR>> what you call a "novel" (but what is a historical) distinction between <BR>> a "coming in judgment" and a "physical coming", contact me off-line <BR>> and I'll give you more references that you have years left to read.<BR>> <BR>> Best,<BR>> Dale<BR>><BR><BR>The question of the Second Coming of Jesus becomes a "doctrinal" issue <BR>only to those who refuse to face the fact that both Paul, the earliest <BR>writer in the New Testament, and most of the others as well, looked for <BR>an imminent return of Jesus out of the clouds while nearly all of them <BR>we!
re still
alive. Dale's claim that the Parousia was in two parts, with <BR>a judgment in the year 70, simply doesn't agree with the book of <BR>Revelation, for example, where the judgment is yet to come. Most <BR>scholars agree that Revelation was written around the year 100.<BR>They also agree that the epistle of 2 Peter was not written by Peter, <BR>but was a late attempt at damage control when Jesus had not yet shown <BR>up as predicted. And ever since then, Christians looking for a magical <BR>solution to all the world's troubles have had to pretend that Jesus, <BR>Paul, et. al., either did not mean what they said or did not say what <BR>they meant. Dale is correct that many books have been written over the <BR>centuries attempting to rationalize this fact.<BR>Ralph Nielsen </BLOCKQUOTE></DIV><p><hr SIZE=1>
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