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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">There is no precedent I am aware of that invalidates a lien solely because it was prepared by a non-lienor non-lawyer. But there are still two problems with it: (1) it is the unauthorized practice of law, because
you are preparing a legal document which, in many respects, has the same effect as a mortgage – should we let non-lawyers draft those too?; and (2) non-lawyers are exposing their clients to potential liability for filing a fraudulent lien. There are enough
lawyers out there already who do not properly scrutinize their clients’ lien claims to counsel them properly about this potential exposure – i.e., what’s lienable, where’s the backup for these claims, are these for unapproved change orders, etc.? – do we really
expect non-lawyers to undertake this analysis at all, much less competently?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif""> clc-discussion-bounces@lists.flabarrpptl.org [mailto:clc-discussion-bounces@lists.flabarrpptl.org]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Larry Leiby<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, December 12, 2017 9:51 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Charles B. Hernicz, Esq.; 'Dan Vega'; 'Weintraub, Lee'<br>
<b>Cc:</b> clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.org<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [CLC-Discussion] Fwd: Online Lien Co. Hits Ohio State Bar With Antitrust Suit<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">The issue is that the Florida Bar doesn’t want non lawyers giving legal advice. The landmark case on this was Florida Bar v Carmel. Where a notice company puts that they prepared the lien on the lien it is red meat for the Bar unlicensed
practice of law committee. That is why they simply put the customer’s name as preparer. A non lawyer can prepare a contract, or prepare a lien for itself. The notice companies, and anyone else, are prohibited from practicing law or giving legal advice to
others. Some notice companies refer requests for claim of lien to counsel to avoid the issue. Some notice companies simply prepare the lien for their customers, which is prohibited to the extent that the notice company makes legal decisions. Preparing a
claim of lien is fraught with legal decisions.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">I see the notice companies running afoul of the law, yet in many instances helping their customers. When they screw up it is going to come back to bite them. Also, any owner can claim that the lien is invalid due to being prepared by a
nonlawyer (if that is established, likely by deposition). Whether a court will invalidate such a lien is still an open question. The possibility is there.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Happy Holidays, Larry<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<div>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> <a href="mailto:clc-discussion-bounces@lists.flabarrpptl.org">
clc-discussion-bounces@lists.flabarrpptl.org</a> [<a href="mailto:clc-discussion-bounces@lists.flabarrpptl.org">mailto:clc-discussion-bounces@lists.flabarrpptl.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Charles B. Hernicz, Esq.<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, December 12, 2017 9:34 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> 'Dan Vega' <<a href="mailto:DVega@TEVTLaw.com">DVega@TEVTLaw.com</a>>; 'Weintraub, Lee' <<a href="mailto:lweintraub@bplegal.com">lweintraub@bplegal.com</a>><br>
<b>Cc:</b> <a href="mailto:clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.org">clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [CLC-Discussion] Fwd: Online Lien Co. Hits Ohio State Bar With Antitrust Suit<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif";color:#1F3864">If the notice company informed those subs that Florida law prohibits notice companies from preparing claims of lien, they would likely reconsider relying
on the notice company for legal advice.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif";color:#1F3864"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> Dan Vega [<a href="mailto:DVega@TEVTLaw.com">mailto:DVega@TEVTLaw.com</a>]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, December 12, 2017 9:27 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Weintraub, Lee <<a href="mailto:lweintraub@bplegal.com">lweintraub@bplegal.com</a>><br>
<b>Cc:</b> Charles B. Hernicz, Esq. <<a href="mailto:Chernicz@herniczlegal.com">Chernicz@herniczlegal.com</a>>;
<a href="mailto:clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.org">clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [CLC-Discussion] Fwd: Online Lien Co. Hits Ohio State Bar With Antitrust Suit<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">So if a non lawyer Non lienor drafts contract, and lienor signs it, the contract is not valid???
<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Guys, there are many subs who rely on the notice companies to perfect their claims, especially in South Florida. <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">As long as lienor signs the lien, the law presumes he/she read doc and agreed to it. Fact that lienor did not fill in blanks on a lien form, is inconsequential. On the other hand, invalidating a lien based on same may be catastrophic
to the lienor, its employees and the company as a whole. <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<div id="AppleMailSignature">
<p class="MsoNormal">Sent from my iPhone <o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Daniel R. Vega<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Board Certified in Construction Law<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Taylor Espino Vega & Touron, P.A. <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">2555 Ponce De Leon Blvd., Suite 220<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Coral Gables, Florida 33134<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Telephone: (305) 443-2043<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Facsimile: (305) 443-2048<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Cell: (305) 962-5186<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">E-mail: <a href="mailto:dvega@tevtlaw.com">dvega@tevtlaw.com</a> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><br>
On Dec 12, 2017, at 9:20 AM, Weintraub, Lee <<a href="mailto:lweintraub@bplegal.com">lweintraub@bplegal.com</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">In litigation. They draft their own contracts all the time.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><a name="_MailEndCompose"><span style="color:#1F497D"> </span></a><o:p></o:p></p>
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<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> Dan Vega [<a href="mailto:DVega@TEVTLaw.com">mailto:DVega@TEVTLaw.com</a>]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, December 12, 2017 9:17 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Weintraub, Lee <<a href="mailto:lweintraub@bplegal.com">lweintraub@bplegal.com</a>><br>
<b>Cc:</b> Charles B. Hernicz, Esq. <<a href="mailto:Chernicz@herniczlegal.com">Chernicz@herniczlegal.com</a>>;
<a href="mailto:clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.org">clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [CLC-Discussion] Fwd: Online Lien Co. Hits Ohio State Bar With Antitrust Suit<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Lienors are usually companies. Companies cannot rep themselves.
<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<div id="AppleMailSignature">
<p class="MsoNormal">Sent from my iPhone <o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Daniel R. Vega<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Board Certified in Construction Law<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Taylor Espino Vega & Touron, P.A. <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">2555 Ponce De Leon Blvd., Suite 220<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Coral Gables, Florida 33134<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Telephone: (305) 443-2043<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Facsimile: (305) 443-2048<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Cell: (305) 962-5186<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">E-mail: <a href="mailto:dvega@tevtlaw.com">dvega@tevtlaw.com</a> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><br>
On Dec 12, 2017, at 9:11 AM, Weintraub, Lee <<a href="mailto:lweintraub@bplegal.com">lweintraub@bplegal.com</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">Because a lienor, like any client, can represent itself (other than in litigation of course). But if a company holds itself out as an expert to others and receives compensation for its services, it needs to
know how to do it. NTO companies don’t know how to handle complex property title issues or figure out what’s lienable and what’s non-lienable, among other issues.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> Dan Vega [<a href="mailto:DVega@TEVTLaw.com">mailto:DVega@TEVTLaw.com</a>]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, December 12, 2017 8:48 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Weintraub, Lee <<a href="mailto:lweintraub@bplegal.com">lweintraub@bplegal.com</a>><br>
<b>Cc:</b> Charles B. Hernicz, Esq. <<a href="mailto:Chernicz@herniczlegal.com">Chernicz@herniczlegal.com</a>>;
<a href="mailto:clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.org">clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [CLC-Discussion] Fwd: Online Lien Co. Hits Ohio State Bar With Antitrust Suit<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">But if lienor prepares lien it’s ok? <o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt">Makes no sense <o:p></o:p></p>
<div id="AppleMailSignature">
<p class="MsoNormal">Sent from my iPhone <o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Daniel R. Vega<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Board Certified in Construction Law<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Taylor Espino Vega & Touron, P.A. <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">2555 Ponce De Leon Blvd., Suite 220<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Coral Gables, Florida 33134<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Telephone: (305) 443-2043<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Facsimile: (305) 443-2048<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Cell: (305) 962-5186<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">E-mail: <a href="mailto:dvega@tevtlaw.com">dvega@tevtlaw.com</a> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
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On Dec 12, 2017, at 8:25 AM, Weintraub, Lee <<a href="mailto:lweintraub@bplegal.com">lweintraub@bplegal.com</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="3d6c270c-3956-4543-a3af-6c1545225391" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt">The attorney general held it does matter. Drafting of liens requires legal analyses that could screw a lienor who relies upon such analysis performed by a non-lawyer. <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Sent from my iPhone<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="3d6c270c-3956-4543-a3af-6c1545225391" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><b><span style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif"">Lee</span></b><span style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif""> <b>A. Weintraub</b></span><br>
<span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif"">Shareholder<br>
Board Certified in Construction Law<br>
Chair, Public Private Partnerships Practice Group<br>
Vice Chair, Construction Law and Litigation Practice Group</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="3d6c270c-3956-4543-a3af-6c1545225391"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif"">1 East Broward Blvd., Suite 1800 | Fort Lauderdale, FL 33301</span><br>
<span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif"">Tel: 954.985.4147 | Fax: 954.985.4176 |
<a href="mailto:lweintraub@bplegal.com" title="Click to send email to Weintraub, Lee">
E-Mail</a></span><br>
<span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif""><a href="http://www.bplegal.com">Website</a> |
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Connect on LinkedIn</a> | <a href="http://twitter.com/leeweintraub" title="http://twitter.com/leeweintraub">
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<p class="e9dd7ab7-7873-46a1-9391-e06641c03b0e"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif"">The Becker & Poliakoff
<b>Client CARE Center</b> is </span>here to serve our valued clients. If we can be of assistance in any way, please call us toll-free at 1-844-CAREBP1 (1-844-227-3271) or by email at
<a href="mailto:care@bplegal.com">care@bplegal.com</a>. <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt">On Dec 12, 2017, at 8:21 AM, Dan Vega <<a href="mailto:DVega@TEVTLaw.com">DVega@TEVTLaw.com</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Does it matter who prepares the lien form so long as lienor signs it?
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<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">The notice companies provide a valuable service to many small companies who otherwise would likely blow their lien rights. <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Daniel R. Vega<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Board Certified in Construction Law<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Taylor Espino Vega & Touron, P.A. <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">2555 Ponce De Leon Blvd., Suite 220<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Coral Gables, Florida 33134<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Telephone: (305) 443-2043<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Facsimile: (305) 443-2048<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Cell: (305) 962-5186<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">E-mail: <a href="mailto:dvega@tevtlaw.com">dvega@tevtlaw.com</a> <o:p></o:p></p>
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On Dec 12, 2017, at 7:41 AM, Charles B. Hernicz, Esq. <<a href="mailto:Chernicz@herniczlegal.com">Chernicz@herniczlegal.com</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif";color:#1F3864">Notice companies in Florida regularly prepare claims of lien in violation of
</span><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif";color:black">Section 713.08(2); now they jut put the company’s name in the “Return to” block but are still in clear violation of this prohibition.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:7.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif";color:#1F497D">Board Certified in Construction Law by The Florida Bar
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</span></b><span style="font-family:"Lucida Calligraphy";color:blue">Hernicz Legal Services, P.L.<br>
</span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif";color:navy">1460 Wood Row Way
<br>
Wellington, FL 33414 <br>
Telephone: (561) 753-7511 <br>
Facsimile: (561) 753-7082 <br>
</span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif";color:blue"><a href="Chernicz@HerniczLegal.com">Chernicz@HerniczLegal.com</a></span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> <a href="mailto:clc-discussion-bounces@lists.flabarrpptl.org">
clc-discussion-bounces@lists.flabarrpptl.org</a> [<a href="mailto:clc-discussion-bounces@lists.flabarrpptl.org">mailto:clc-discussion-bounces@lists.flabarrpptl.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Barry Kalmanson<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Monday, December 11, 2017 4:34 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> <a href="mailto:clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.org">clc-discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> [CLC-Discussion] Fwd: Online Lien Co. Hits Ohio State Bar With Antitrust Suit<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black">Interesting reading attached regarding a company known as Zlien operating throughout Florida.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black">After reading the opinion/agreement you may want to look at Section 713.08(2) Florida Statutes.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black">Sincerely,</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black">Barry Kalmanson</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black">500 N Maitland Avenue</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black">Suite 305
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black">Maitland, Fl. 32751</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black">407-645-4500 x 215</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black"><a href="http://www.barrykalmanson.com">www.barrykalmanson.com</a></span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif"">_______________________________________________<br>
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<a href="http://mailman.fsr.com/mailman/listinfo/clc-discussion">http://mailman.fsr.com/mailman/listinfo/clc-discussion</a></span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif"">_______________________________________________<br>
CLC-Discussion mailing list<br>
<a href="mailto:CLC-Discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.org">CLC-Discussion@lists.flabarrpptl.org</a><br>
<a href="http://mailman.fsr.com/mailman/listinfo/clc-discussion">http://mailman.fsr.com/mailman/listinfo/clc-discussion</a></span><o:p></o:p></p>
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