[CLC-Discussion] Who can sign liens and releases?

Thu Jul 2 10:52:50 PDT 2020

Let’s get rid of liens altogether. Problem solved.  You’re welcome. ☺

Love the brain trust that is the CLC. We have an awesome group.

I’ll stay out of this one.

Have a great weekend all.

Gary

Gary L. Brown, Esq.
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From: clc-discussion-bounces at lists.flabarrpptl.org <clc-discussion-bounces at lists.flabarrpptl.org> On Behalf Of Barry Kalmanson
Sent: Thursday, July 02, 2020 1:18 PM
To: DVega at TEVTLaw.com; fsilva at shomagroup.com; lweintraub at beckerlawyers.com
Cc: clc-discussion at lists.flabarrpptl.org
Subject: Re: [CLC-Discussion] Who can sign liens and releases?

You may want to consider the non-lawyer services routinely preparing and some in Miami signing the liens. This is clearly the unlicensed practice of law.
Sincerely,

Barry Kalmanson
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-----Original Message-----
From: Dan Vega <DVega at TEVTLaw.com<mailto:DVega at TEVTLaw.com>>
To: Frank Silva <fsilva at shomagroup.com<mailto:fsilva at shomagroup.com>>; Weintraub, Lee <lweintraub at beckerlawyers.com<mailto:lweintraub at beckerlawyers.com>>
Cc: clc-discussion at lists.flabarrpptl.org<mailto:clc-discussion at lists.flabarrpptl.org> <clc-discussion at lists.flabarrpptl.org<mailto:clc-discussion at lists.flabarrpptl.org>>
Sent: Wed, Jul 1, 2020 6:13 pm
Subject: Re: [CLC-Discussion] Who can sign liens and releases?
I agree that a non-lawyer non-lienor should not sign the lien.

So, if I understand the conservatives correctly, the following are valid:

  1.  The lienor’s president prepares the form and signs it (he is not a lawyer); or

  1.  The employee of the lienor (who could be the daughter of the owner) prepares  the form and president signs it.

The following are not:

  1.  The sister of the one who works with the dad happens to be in the office and prepares form with dad and sister looking on and dad signs it;

  1.  A friend of the lienor/owner helps the lienor prepare the form but lienor signs it; or

  1.  A paralegal prepares the form without attorney supervision and lienor reviews and signs.

So advice for your clients:  If they signed the lien, they prepared

Daniel R. Vega, Esq.
Florida Board Certified in Construction Law
Florida Supreme Court Certified Circuit Court Mediator
Taylor Espino Vega & Touron, PLLC
201 Alhambra Circle, Suite 801
Coral Gables, Florida 33134
Telephone: (305) 443-2043
Facsimile:  (305) 443-2048
Cell:  (305) 962-5186
E-mail: dvega at tevtlaw.com<mailto:dvega at tevtlaw.com>
www.tevtlaw.com<http://www.tevtlaw.com/>

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Subject: RE: [CLC-Discussion] Who can sign liens and releases?

Same conclusion, but both parties in the third scenario are legally authorized to prepare the claim of lien.  Not as clear on the second scenario because we don’t know enough about the daughter’s legal capacity.

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Frank Silva, Esquire
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Sent: Wednesday, July 1, 2020 4:25 PM
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Subject: RE: [CLC-Discussion] Who can sign liens and releases?

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Why not the same conclusion on the 3d scenario?

Daniel R. Vega, Esq.
Florida Board Certified in Construction Law
Florida Supreme Court Certified Circuit Court Mediator
Taylor Espino Vega & Touron, PLLC
201 Alhambra Circle, Suite 801
Coral Gables, Florida 33134
Telephone: (305) 443-2043
Facsimile:  (305) 443-2048
Cell:  (305) 962-5186
E-mail: dvega at tevtlaw.com<mailto:dvega at tevtlaw.com>
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Cc: clc-discussion at lists.flabarrpptl.org<mailto:clc-discussion at lists.flabarrpptl.org>
Subject: RE: [CLC-Discussion] Who can sign liens and releases?

Unless the president’s daughter is an employee, the second scenario sounds like it was jointly prepared by two separate parties.

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Frank Silva, Esquire
General Counsel
201 Sevilla Avenue, Suite 300
Coral Gables, Florida 33134
Telephone: (786) 437-8658
Direct: (786) 437-8674
Cell: (786) 382-9627
Facsimile: (786) 437-8606
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From: clc-discussion-bounces at lists.flabarrpptl.org<mailto:clc-discussion-bounces at lists.flabarrpptl.org> <clc-discussion-bounces at lists.flabarrpptl.org<mailto:clc-discussion-bounces at lists.flabarrpptl.org>> On Behalf Of Dan Vega
Sent: Wednesday, July 1, 2020 3:38 PM
To: Weintraub, Lee <lweintraub at beckerlawyers.com<mailto:lweintraub at beckerlawyers.com>>
Cc: clc-discussion at lists.flabarrpptl.org<mailto:clc-discussion at lists.flabarrpptl.org>
Subject: Re: [CLC-Discussion] Who can sign liens and releases?

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Again, if an employee of the client prepares the form and it is reviewed and signed by the owner’s president, the lienor prepared it.

if the lienor’s president’s daughter types up the form consulting with her dad and the dad/president reviews and signs it, it is same thing – the lienor prepared it.

If the lienor goes to his lawyers office (Becker and Poliakoff) to meet you to help him fill out the form, and you do but he reviews and signs it,  Lienor prepared it.

Daniel R. Vega, Esq.
Florida Board Certified in Construction Law
Florida Supreme Court Certified Circuit Court Mediator
Taylor Espino Vega & Touron, PLLC
201 Alhambra Circle, Suite 801
Coral Gables, Florida 33134
Telephone: (305) 443-2043
Facsimile:  (305) 443-2048
Cell:  (305) 962-5186
E-mail: dvega at tevtlaw.com<mailto:dvega at tevtlaw.com>
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From: Weintraub, Lee <lweintraub at beckerlawyers.com<mailto:lweintraub at beckerlawyers.com>>
Sent: Wednesday, July 1, 2020 3:23 PM
To: Dan Vega <DVega at TEVTLaw.com<mailto:DVega at TEVTLaw.com>>
Cc: Reese J. Henderson, Jr. <Reese.Henderson at gray-robinson.com<mailto:Reese.Henderson at gray-robinson.com>>; clc-discussion at lists.flabarrpptl.org<mailto:clc-discussion at lists.flabarrpptl.org>
Subject: RE: [CLC-Discussion] Who can sign liens and releases?

Clients can always do things for themselves.  If a third party does it for someone else, that third party needs to be a lawyer (in this situation).

Lee

A.

Weintraub
Shareholder
Board Certified in Construction Law
Chair, Public Private Partnerships Practice Group
Vice Chair, Construction Law and Litigation Practice Group
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Sent: Wednesday, July 1, 2020 3:22 PM
To: Weintraub, Lee <lweintraub at beckerlawyers.com<mailto:lweintraub at beckerlawyers.com>>
Cc: Reese J. Henderson, Jr. <Reese.Henderson at gray-robinson.com<mailto:Reese.Henderson at gray-robinson.com>>; clc-discussion at lists.flabarrpptl.org<mailto:clc-discussion at lists.flabarrpptl.org>
Subject: Re: [CLC-Discussion] Who can sign liens and releases?

[EXTERNAL EMAIL]
That would happen to any client who prepares its own liens lee.

The noc would also be recorded against the wrong property.

What is the point?  That only lawyers should prepare liens?

If lienor can prepare lien, the fact lienor signs it, means client prepared it.   Like anything else. I can draft a letter for you.  If u sign it and send it out, you prepared it.
Sent from my iPhone

Daniel R. Vega, Esq.
Florida Board Certified in Construction Law
Florida Supreme Court Certified Circuit Court Mediator
Taylor Espino Vega & Touron, PLLC
201 Alhambra Circle, Suite 801
Coral Gables, Florida 33134
Telephone: (305) 443-2043
Facsimile: (305) 443-2048
Cell: (305) 962-5186
E-mail: dvega at tevtlaw.com<mailto:dvega at tevtlaw.com>

On Jul 1, 2020, at 2:38 PM, Weintraub, Lee <lweintraub at beckerlawyers.com<mailto:lweintraub at beckerlawyers.com>> wrote:

And if the NOC was incorrect and she liened the wrong property, I hope she has insurance.  Reliance on an NOC is not a defense to a defective lien.

Lee

A.

Weintraub
Shareholder
Board Certified in Construction Law
Chair, Public Private Partnerships Practice Group
Vice Chair, Construction Law and Litigation Practice Group
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From: clc-discussion-bounces at lists.flabarrpptl.org<mailto:clc-discussion-bounces at lists.flabarrpptl.org> <clc-discussion-bounces at lists.flabarrpptl.org<mailto:clc-discussion-bounces at lists.flabarrpptl.org>> On Behalf Of Dan Vega
Sent: Wednesday, July 1, 2020 2:35 PM
To: Reese J. Henderson, Jr. <Reese.Henderson at gray-robinson.com<mailto:Reese.Henderson at gray-robinson.com>>
Cc: clc-discussion at lists.flabarrpptl.org<mailto:clc-discussion at lists.flabarrpptl.org>
Subject: Re: [CLC-Discussion] Who can sign liens and releases?

[EXTERNAL EMAIL]
No. But she can copy the legal from the notice of commencement
Sent from my iPhone

Daniel R. Vega, Esq.
Florida Board Certified in Construction Law
Florida Supreme Court Certified Circuit Court Mediator
Taylor Espino Vega & Touron, PLLC
201 Alhambra Circle, Suite 801
Coral Gables, Florida 33134
Telephone: (305) 443-2043
Facsimile: (305) 443-2048
Cell: (305) 962-5186
E-mail: dvega at tevtlaw.com<mailto:dvega at tevtlaw.com>

On Jul 1, 2020, at 1:23 PM, Reese J. Henderson, Jr. <Reese.Henderson at gray-robinson.com<mailto:Reese.Henderson at gray-robinson.com>> wrote:

Here’s a link for the curious - https://nam11.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%253A%252F%252Fcaselaw.findlaw.com%252Ffl-supreme-court%252F1717326.html&data=02%257C01%257CDVega%2540TEVTLaw.com%257C0c0751a645474b917ec608d81e00f5c7%257C77483cb9f33c4c7686e8bcfe43eb03ef%257C0%257C0%257C637292336805026509&sdata=A0p32lev%252B%252Bi4eBG1R15RvhdaVuFoalgFiRGFDaWZk98%253D&reserved=0

Reese J. Henderson, Jr. | Shareholder
Florida Bar Board Certified in Construction Law
Florida Supreme Court Certified Circuit Civil Mediator
G R A Y | R O B I N S O N

50 North Laura Street, Suite 1100 | Jacksonville, Florida 32202
T: 904-598-9929 | F: 904-598-9109 | D: 904-632-8459
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From: Adam C. Linkhorst <ACL at floridahardhatlaw.com<mailto:ACL at floridahardhatlaw.com>>
Sent: Wednesday, July 1, 2020 1:18 PM
To: Reese J. Henderson, Jr. <Reese.Henderson at gray-robinson.com<mailto:Reese.Henderson at gray-robinson.com>>; Dan Vega <DVega at TEVTLaw.com<mailto:DVega at TEVTLaw.com>>; Barry Kalmanson <bkpa1 at aol.com<mailto:bkpa1 at aol.com>>
Cc: clc-discussion at lists.flabarrpptl.org<mailto:clc-discussion at lists.flabarrpptl.org>
Subject: Re: [CLC-Discussion] Who can sign liens and releases?

This message originated outside of GrayRobinson.
________________________________
Take a look at SC13-889. It may be helpful. Deals with property mangers but seems very instruction and has a lot behind it.

Adam C. Linkhorst, Esq.
Linkhorst & Hockin, P.A.
C - 954.562.9199
W - 561.626.8880
________________________________
From: clc-discussion-bounces at lists.flabarrpptl.org<mailto:clc-discussion-bounces at lists.flabarrpptl.org> <clc-discussion-bounces at lists.flabarrpptl.org<mailto:clc-discussion-bounces at lists.flabarrpptl.org>> on behalf of Reese J. Henderson, Jr. <Reese.Henderson at gray-robinson.com<mailto:Reese.Henderson at gray-robinson.com>>
Sent: Wednesday, July 1, 2020 11:09:26 AM
To: Dan Vega <DVega at TEVTLaw.com<mailto:DVega at TEVTLaw.com>>; Barry Kalmanson <bkpa1 at aol.com<mailto:bkpa1 at aol.com>>
Cc: clc-discussion at lists.flabarrpptl.org<mailto:clc-discussion at lists.flabarrpptl.org> <clc-discussion at lists.flabarrpptl.org<mailto:clc-discussion at lists.flabarrpptl.org>>
Subject: Re: [CLC-Discussion] Who can sign liens and releases?

Dan:  Does your 15 year old daughter know how to prepare a proper legal description of the property that your client’s lien will encumber?  Does your daughter, or any layperson for that matter, appreciate the gravity and potential ramifications of making an error in the calculation of the lien amount (i.e., fraudulent lien exposure)?  Preparing a lien is hardly a trivial task.

Reese J. Henderson, Jr. | Shareholder
Florida Bar Board Certified in Construction Law
Florida Supreme Court Certified Circuit Civil Mediator
G R A Y | R O B I N S O N

50 North Laura Street, Suite 1100 | Jacksonville, Florida 32202
T: 904-598-9929 | F: 904-598-9109 | D: 904-632-8459
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From: clc-discussion-bounces at lists.flabarrpptl.org<mailto:clc-discussion-bounces at lists.flabarrpptl.org> <clc-discussion-bounces at lists.flabarrpptl.org<mailto:clc-discussion-bounces at lists.flabarrpptl.org>> On Behalf Of Dan Vega
Sent: Wednesday, July 1, 2020 1:01 PM
To: Barry Kalmanson <bkpa1 at aol.com<mailto:bkpa1 at aol.com>>
Cc: clc-discussion at lists.flabarrpptl.org<mailto:clc-discussion at lists.flabarrpptl.org>
Subject: Re: [CLC-Discussion] Who can sign liens and releases?

This message originated outside of GrayRobinson.
________________________________
What does prepare the lien mean?

My 15 year old daughter can take the form in the statute and fill the blanks with the info provided by a client.  The client then signs it.

Who prepared the lien?
Sent from my iPhone

Daniel R. Vega, Esq.
Florida Board Certified in Construction Law
Florida Supreme Court Certified Circuit Court Mediator
Taylor Espino Vega & Touron, PLLC
201 Alhambra Circle, Suite 801
Coral Gables, Florida 33134
Telephone: (305) 443-2043
Facsimile: (305) 443-2048
Cell: (305) 962-5186
E-mail: dvega at tevtlaw.com<mailto:dvega at tevtlaw.com>

On Jul 1, 2020, at 12:52 PM, Barry Kalmanson <bkpa1 at aol.com<mailto:bkpa1 at aol.com>> wrote:

As far as the execution of liens the word "attorney" was removed from the statute in 1977. Now Section 713.08(2) does not provide authority for an attorney to execute liens unless the attorney happens to be "acquainted with the facts stated therein." This highly unlikely unless the attorney also works as an employee of the lienor.  This makes a fun day in a deposition.

As far as releases go any individual with authority (including attorneys) can execute releases. Section 713.20 does not include a limitation on who can sign the releases of lien.

Under Section 713.08(2) the discussion becomes much more interesting as to who can prepare the liens . Many throughout the state that are not permitted are preparing liens. This is clearly the unlicensed practice of law.  The Florida Bar has sent cease and desist letters to various companies and non-lawyer individuals for preparing liens.
Sincerely,

Barry Kalmanson
500 N Maitland Avenue
Suite 305
Maitland, Fl. 32751
407-645-4500 x 215

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-----Original Message-----
From: Bruce Partington <bpartington at clarkpartington.com<mailto:bpartington at clarkpartington.com>>
To: Jeffrey Price <jeff at npw-law.com<mailto:jeff at npw-law.com>>; clc-discussion at lists.flabarrpptl.org<mailto:clc-discussion at lists.flabarrpptl.org> <clc-discussion at lists.flabarrpptl.org<mailto:clc-discussion at lists.flabarrpptl.org>>
Sent: Wed, Jul 1, 2020 10:24 am
Subject: Re: [CLC-Discussion] Who can sign liens and releases?
For what it’s worth, and 692 is part of it, it’s been my policy for years never to sign liens or releases on behalf of clients. Another reason is that the jurat is taking an oath that what is in it is true, and I think it’s best that clients do that. (A release would formally probably only require an acknowledgement, but a lien definitely requires a jurat).

I think the beginning of 692.01 makes it relatively clear:
Any corporation may execute instruments conveying, mortgaging, or affecting any interest in lands by instruments sealed with the common or corporate seal and signed in its name by its president or any vice president or chief executive officer. Assignments, satisfactions, or partial releases of mortgages and acquittances for debts may be similarly executed by any corporate officer.

But, read carefully, that only applies to acknowledgements, not jurats, because pretty much all instruments affecting any interests in lands, except a construction lien, require only an acknowledgement.

Bruce Partington | Shareholder
bpartington at clarkpartington.com<mailto:bpartington at clarkpartington.com> | (850) 432-1399<callto:(850)%2520432-1399>
CLARK PARTINGTON
Office: (850) 434-9200 | Fax: (850) 432-7340
125 East Intendencia Street, 4th Floor
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From: clc-discussion-bounces at lists.flabarrpptl.org<mailto:clc-discussion-bounces at lists.flabarrpptl.org> <clc-discussion-bounces at lists.flabarrpptl.org<mailto:clc-discussion-bounces at lists.flabarrpptl.org>> On Behalf Of Jeffrey Price
Sent: Wednesday, July 1, 2020 9:05 AM
To: clc-discussion at lists.flabarrpptl.org<mailto:clc-discussion at lists.flabarrpptl.org>
Subject: [CLC-Discussion] Who can sign liens and releases?

Delivered a partial lien release for a single condo where client has a lien on the entire complex. This was the 6th at this condo for routine sales (Miami-Dade) and was no different that the other 5 (or other 20-some in the last 6 months on other complexes). The release was prepared by me (Attorney for Lienor), signed by me as “Agent/Attorney for Lienor.”

Got into a dispute about the release form (not the amount). First they wanted the jurat changed to duplicate the language as of Jan. 1, 2020 (despite the statute saying the jurat “must be in substantially the following form”). Whatever. Fine.

But then this is forwarded to me. I called “Connie” but because I am not a member of “The Fund” she refused to discuss anything and hung up the phone. (You that have dealt with me can understand, hell, I don’t even like talking to me in a mirror).

Question – has anyone ever heard of this line of reasoning? Does 692 have anything to do with 713 liens and releases?

“The release is signed an agent of a Florida corporation.  Under Sec. 692.01, F.S.,  a corporate officer may sign partial releases of mortgages and acquittances for debts. There is no authority for anyone other than a corporate officer to sign such a document.”
connie Clark
Senior Underwriting Counsel

P: 800.432.9594
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