[CLC-Discussion] Fwd: Online Lien Co. Hits Ohio State Bar With Antitrust Suit

Tue Dec 12 07:56:06 PST 2017

Amen!

David C. Agee, Esquire

REID & AGEE, PLLC
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-----Original Message-----
From: "Claramargaret Groover" <Chgroover at grooverlawfirm.com>
Sent: Tuesday, December 12, 2017 10:39am
To: "Weintraub, Lee" <lweintraub at bplegal.com>, "Alex Barthet" <Alex at barthet.com>, "Dan Vega" <DVega at TEVTLaw.com>, "Larry Leiby" <Leiby at mkpalaw.com>
Cc: "clc-discussion at lists.flabarrpptl.org" <clc-discussion at lists.flabarrpptl.org>
Subject: Re: [CLC-Discussion] Fwd: Online Lien Co. Hits Ohio State Bar With Antitrust Suit

None of us should advocate that we be simplistically reduced to vending machines dispensing the law in exchange for a quarter in the slot.  We have Legal Zoom to help us mislead the public with the vending machine approach.

Dan, just call me old fashioned but I still believe that our judgment in drafting contracts and preparing liens is less form and more substance.  It’s hard to believe that since 1981, our discussion on this topic has hardly advanced.

Claire

From: clc-discussion-bounces at lists.flabarrpptl.org [mailto:clc-discussion-bounces at lists.flabarrpptl.org] On Behalf Of Weintraub, Lee
Sent: Tuesday, December 12, 2017 10:14 AM
To: Alex Barthet <Alex at barthet.com>; Dan Vega <DVega at TEVTLaw.com>; Larry Leiby <Leiby at mkpalaw.com>
Cc: clc-discussion at lists.flabarrpptl.org
Subject: Re: [CLC-Discussion] Fwd: Online Lien Co. Hits Ohio State Bar With Antitrust Suit

Just don’t let Dan be the speaker.  J

From: Alex Barthet [[ mailto:Alex at barthet.com ]( mailto:Alex at barthet.com )] 
Sent: Tuesday, December 12, 2017 10:13 AM
To: Weintraub, Lee <[ lweintraub at bplegal.com ]( mailto:lweintraub at bplegal.com )>; Dan Vega <[ DVega at TEVTLaw.com ]( mailto:DVega at TEVTLaw.com )>; Larry Leiby <[ Leiby at mkpalaw.com ]( mailto:Leiby at mkpalaw.com )>
Cc: [ clc-discussion at lists.flabarrpptl.org ]( mailto:clc-discussion at lists.flabarrpptl.org )
Subject: RE: [CLC-Discussion] Fwd: Online Lien Co. Hits Ohio State Bar With Antitrust Suit

Seems like an interesting topic for the CLI in March.  Just a thought. 

Regards,
Alex Barthet
Board Certified in Construction Law
[ TheLienZone Construction Law Blog ]( http://thelienzone.com/ )
[ vCard ]( http://barthet.com/Wordpress-Site/wp-content/uploads/2013/01/alexander-e-barthet.vcf ) | [ Biography ]( http://barthet.com/team/alexander-barthet/alexander-barthet-full-bio/ )

The Barthet Firm
200 S. Biscayne Blvd., Suite 1800
Miami, Florida 33131
305-347-5295 (direct line)
[ alex at barthet.com ]( mailto:alex at barthet.com )
[ www.barthet.com ]( http://www.barthet.com/ )

This electronic communication may contain privileged, confidential, or proprietary information.  If you are not the intended recipient or an authorized agent of the intended recipient, please delete this communication and notify the sender.  Thank you.

From: [  clc-discussion-bounces at lists.flabarrpptl.org ]( mailto:clc-discussion-bounces at lists.flabarrpptl.org ) [[ mailto:clc-discussion-bounces at lists.flabarrpptl.org ]( mailto:clc-discussion-bounces at lists.flabarrpptl.org )] On Behalf Of Weintraub, Lee
Sent: Tuesday, December 12, 2017 10:01 AM
To: Dan Vega <[ DVega at TEVTLaw.com ]( mailto:DVega at TEVTLaw.com )>; Larry Leiby <[ Leiby at mkpalaw.com ]( mailto:Leiby at mkpalaw.com )>
Cc: [ clc-discussion at lists.flabarrpptl.org ]( mailto:clc-discussion at lists.flabarrpptl.org )
Subject: Re: [CLC-Discussion] Fwd: Online Lien Co. Hits Ohio State Bar With Antitrust Suit

By the way, I have also represented an NTO company in defense of an unauthorized practice of law complaint from the Florida Bar.  We settled it by the company shutting down its lien preparation services.

From: Weintraub, Lee 
Sent: Tuesday, December 12, 2017 10:00 AM
To: 'Dan Vega' <[ DVega at TEVTLaw.com ]( mailto:DVega at TEVTLaw.com )>; Larry Leiby <[ Leiby at mkpalaw.com ]( mailto:Leiby at mkpalaw.com )>
Cc: Charles B. Hernicz, Esq. <[ Chernicz at herniczlegal.com ]( mailto:Chernicz at herniczlegal.com )>; [ clc-discussion at lists.flabarrpptl.org ]( mailto:clc-discussion at lists.flabarrpptl.org )
Subject: RE: [CLC-Discussion] Fwd: Online Lien Co. Hits Ohio State Bar With Antitrust Suit

From where does the legal description come?  Or the determination of the true property owner?  Or the determination that the NOC’s legal description is accurate?  I have prepared many liens where these were nightmare issues and you can’t just rely on an NOC.  You can rely on the NOC for NTO purposes, but not for liening property.

For what service is the NTO company charging a fee – use of its form?  The lienor can get that from the statute.  The NTO company (and I have represented them) actually works up the lien, gathering info from the lienor, then looking at title for the rest.

From: Dan Vega [[ mailto:DVega at TEVTLaw.com ]( mailto:DVega at TEVTLaw.com )] 
Sent: Tuesday, December 12, 2017 9:55 AM
To: Larry Leiby <[ Leiby at mkpalaw.com ]( mailto:Leiby at mkpalaw.com )>
Cc: Charles B. Hernicz, Esq. <[ Chernicz at herniczlegal.com ]( mailto:Chernicz at herniczlegal.com )>; Weintraub, Lee <[ lweintraub at bplegal.com ]( mailto:lweintraub at bplegal.com )>; [ clc-discussion at lists.flabarrpptl.org ]( mailto:clc-discussion at lists.flabarrpptl.org )
Subject: Re: [CLC-Discussion] Fwd: Online Lien Co. Hits Ohio State Bar With Antitrust Suit

You all are blowing this way out of proportion. 

The lienor is signing a form that includes data provided by the lienor.  

The notice Company is not preparing the lien. 

The notice Company facilitates the lienor’s preparation of the lien and records it for a fee.  

In South Florida, this service is extremely valuable to the very people who are actually physically performing the work.   

Sent from my iPhone

Daniel R. Vega

Board Certified in Construction Law

Taylor Espino Vega & Touron, P.A. 

2555 Ponce De Leon Blvd., Suite 220

Coral Gables, Florida 33134

Telephone: (305) 443-2043

Facsimile: (305) 443-2048

Cell: (305) 962-5186

E-mail: [ dvega at tevtlaw.com ]( mailto:dvega at tevtlaw.com ) 

 On Dec 12, 2017, at 9:51 AM, Larry Leiby <[ Leiby at mkpalaw.com ]( mailto:Leiby at mkpalaw.com )> wrote:

The issue is that the Florida Bar doesn’t want non lawyers giving legal advice.  The landmark case on this was Florida Bar v Carmel.  Where a notice company puts that they prepared the lien on the lien it is red meat for the Bar unlicensed practice of law committee.  That is why they simply put the customer’s name as preparer. A non lawyer can prepare a contract, or prepare a lien for itself.  The notice companies, and anyone else, are prohibited from practicing law or giving legal advice to others.  Some notice companies refer requests for claim of lien to counsel to avoid the issue.  Some notice companies simply prepare the lien for their customers, which is prohibited to the extent that the notice company makes legal decisions.  Preparing a claim of lien is fraught with legal decisions.
I see the notice companies running afoul of the law, yet in many instances helping their customers. When they screw up it is going to come back to bite them.  Also, any owner can claim that the lien is invalid due to being prepared by a nonlawyer (if that is established, likely by deposition).  Whether a court will invalidate such a lien is still an open question.  The possibility is there.

Happy Holidays, Larry

From: [  clc-discussion-bounces at lists.flabarrpptl.org ]( mailto:clc-discussion-bounces at lists.flabarrpptl.org ) [[ mailto:clc-discussion-bounces at lists.flabarrpptl.org ]( mailto:clc-discussion-bounces at lists.flabarrpptl.org )] On Behalf Of Charles B. Hernicz, Esq.
Sent: Tuesday, December 12, 2017 9:34 AM
To: 'Dan Vega' <[ DVega at TEVTLaw.com ]( mailto:DVega at TEVTLaw.com )>; 'Weintraub, Lee' <[ lweintraub at bplegal.com ]( mailto:lweintraub at bplegal.com )>
Cc: [ clc-discussion at lists.flabarrpptl.org ]( mailto:clc-discussion at lists.flabarrpptl.org )
Subject: Re: [CLC-Discussion] Fwd: Online Lien Co. Hits Ohio State Bar With Antitrust Suit

If the notice company informed those subs that Florida law prohibits notice companies from preparing claims of lien, they would likely reconsider relying on the notice company for legal advice.

From: Dan Vega [[ mailto:DVega at TEVTLaw.com ]( mailto:DVega at TEVTLaw.com )] 
Sent: Tuesday, December 12, 2017 9:27 AM
To: Weintraub, Lee <[ lweintraub at bplegal.com ]( mailto:lweintraub at bplegal.com )>
Cc: Charles B. Hernicz, Esq. <[ Chernicz at herniczlegal.com ]( mailto:Chernicz at herniczlegal.com )>; [ clc-discussion at lists.flabarrpptl.org ]( mailto:clc-discussion at lists.flabarrpptl.org )
Subject: Re: [CLC-Discussion] Fwd: Online Lien Co. Hits Ohio State Bar With Antitrust Suit

So if a non lawyer Non lienor drafts contract, and lienor signs it, the contract is not valid???

Guys, there are many subs who rely on the notice companies to perfect their claims, especially in South Florida.  

As long as lienor signs the lien, the law presumes he/she read doc and agreed to it.  Fact that lienor did not fill in blanks on a lien form, is inconsequential.   On the other hand, invalidating a lien based on same may be catastrophic to the lienor, its employees and the company as a whole.  

Sent from my iPhone

Daniel R. Vega

Board Certified in Construction Law

Taylor Espino Vega & Touron, P.A. 

2555 Ponce De Leon Blvd., Suite 220

Coral Gables, Florida 33134

Telephone: (305) 443-2043

Facsimile: (305) 443-2048

Cell: (305) 962-5186

E-mail: [ dvega at tevtlaw.com ]( mailto:dvega at tevtlaw.com ) 

 On Dec 12, 2017, at 9:20 AM, Weintraub, Lee <[ lweintraub at bplegal.com ]( mailto:lweintraub at bplegal.com )> wrote:

In litigation.  They draft their own contracts all the time.

From: Dan Vega [[ mailto:DVega at TEVTLaw.com ]( mailto:DVega at TEVTLaw.com )] 
Sent: Tuesday, December 12, 2017 9:17 AM
To: Weintraub, Lee <[ lweintraub at bplegal.com ]( mailto:lweintraub at bplegal.com )>
Cc: Charles B. Hernicz, Esq. <[ Chernicz at herniczlegal.com ]( mailto:Chernicz at herniczlegal.com )>; [ clc-discussion at lists.flabarrpptl.org ]( mailto:clc-discussion at lists.flabarrpptl.org )
Subject: Re: [CLC-Discussion] Fwd: Online Lien Co. Hits Ohio State Bar With Antitrust Suit

Lienors are usually companies.  Companies cannot rep themselves.  

Sent from my iPhone

Daniel R. Vega

Board Certified in Construction Law

Taylor Espino Vega & Touron, P.A. 

2555 Ponce De Leon Blvd., Suite 220

Coral Gables, Florida 33134

Telephone: (305) 443-2043

Facsimile: (305) 443-2048

Cell: (305) 962-5186

E-mail: [ dvega at tevtlaw.com ]( mailto:dvega at tevtlaw.com ) 

 On Dec 12, 2017, at 9:11 AM, Weintraub, Lee <[ lweintraub at bplegal.com ]( mailto:lweintraub at bplegal.com )> wrote:

Because a lienor, like any client, can represent itself (other than in litigation of course).  But if a company holds itself out as an expert to others and receives compensation for its services, it needs to know how to do it.  NTO companies don’t know how to handle complex property title issues or figure out what’s lienable and what’s non-lienable, among other issues.

From: Dan Vega [[ mailto:DVega at TEVTLaw.com ]( mailto:DVega at TEVTLaw.com )] 
Sent: Tuesday, December 12, 2017 8:48 AM
To: Weintraub, Lee <[ lweintraub at bplegal.com ]( mailto:lweintraub at bplegal.com )>
Cc: Charles B. Hernicz, Esq. <[ Chernicz at herniczlegal.com ]( mailto:Chernicz at herniczlegal.com )>; [ clc-discussion at lists.flabarrpptl.org ]( mailto:clc-discussion at lists.flabarrpptl.org )
Subject: Re: [CLC-Discussion] Fwd: Online Lien Co. Hits Ohio State Bar With Antitrust Suit

But if lienor prepares lien it’s ok?  

Makes no sense 

Sent from my iPhone

Daniel R. Vega

Board Certified in Construction Law

Taylor Espino Vega & Touron, P.A. 

2555 Ponce De Leon Blvd., Suite 220

Coral Gables, Florida 33134

Telephone: (305) 443-2043

Facsimile: (305) 443-2048

Cell: (305) 962-5186

E-mail: [ dvega at tevtlaw.com ]( mailto:dvega at tevtlaw.com ) 

 On Dec 12, 2017, at 8:25 AM, Weintraub, Lee <[ lweintraub at bplegal.com ]( mailto:lweintraub at bplegal.com )> wrote:

The attorney general held it does matter. Drafting of liens requires legal analyses that could screw a lienor who relies upon such analysis performed by a non-lawyer. 

Sent from my iPhone

Lee A. Weintraub
Shareholder
 Board Certified in Construction Law
 Chair, Public Private Partnerships Practice Group
 Vice Chair, Construction Law and Litigation Practice Group
1 East Broward Blvd., Suite 1800 | Fort Lauderdale, FL 33301
Tel: 954.985.4147 | Fax: 954.985.4176 | [  E-Mail ]( mailto:lweintraub at bplegal.com )
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On Dec 12, 2017, at 8:21 AM, Dan Vega <[ DVega at TEVTLaw.com ]( mailto:DVega at TEVTLaw.com )> wrote:

Does it matter who prepares the lien form so long as lienor signs it?  

The notice companies provide a valuable service to many small companies who otherwise would likely blow their lien rights.  

Sent from my iPhone

Daniel R. Vega

Board Certified in Construction Law

Taylor Espino Vega & Touron, P.A. 

2555 Ponce De Leon Blvd., Suite 220

Coral Gables, Florida 33134

Telephone: (305) 443-2043

Facsimile: (305) 443-2048

Cell: (305) 962-5186

E-mail: [ dvega at tevtlaw.com ]( mailto:dvega at tevtlaw.com ) 

 On Dec 12, 2017, at 7:41 AM, Charles B. Hernicz, Esq. <[ Chernicz at herniczlegal.com ]( mailto:Chernicz at herniczlegal.com )> wrote:

Notice companies in Florida regularly prepare claims of lien in violation of Section 713.08(2); now they jut put the company’s name in the “Return to” block but are still in clear violation of this prohibition.

Board Certified in Construction Law by The Florida Bar           
Hernicz Legal Services, P.L.
1460 Wood Row Way 
 Wellington, FL 33414 
 Telephone: (561) 753-7511 
 Facsimile: (561) 753-7082 
[ Chernicz at HerniczLegal.com ]( https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=Chernicz%40HerniczLegal.com&data=02%7C01%7Calex%40barthet.com%7Cbfba77df783a42aed4cc08d54172c223%7C4db1f097afcb4c95948f952ebf3da42d%7C0%7C0%7C636486883502099322&sdata=qxiw9QuWHeM4BqKJlsKsrtP6ctHXBIHLIyAUeZ5sKoM%3D&reserved=0 )

From: [  clc-discussion-bounces at lists.flabarrpptl.org ]( mailto:clc-discussion-bounces at lists.flabarrpptl.org ) [[ mailto:clc-discussion-bounces at lists.flabarrpptl.org ]( mailto:clc-discussion-bounces at lists.flabarrpptl.org )] On Behalf Of Barry Kalmanson
Sent: Monday, December 11, 2017 4:34 PM
To: [ clc-discussion at lists.flabarrpptl.org ]( mailto:clc-discussion at lists.flabarrpptl.org )
Subject: [CLC-Discussion] Fwd: Online Lien Co. Hits Ohio State Bar With Antitrust Suit

Interesting reading attached regarding a company known as Zlien operating throughout Florida.

After reading the opinion/agreement you may want to look at Section 713.08(2) Florida Statutes.

Sincerely,

Barry Kalmanson

500 N Maitland Avenue

Suite 305 

Maitland, Fl. 32751

407-645-4500 x 215

[ www.barrykalmanson.com ]( https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.barrykalmanson.com&data=02%7C01%7Calex%40barthet.com%7Cbfba77df783a42aed4cc08d54172c223%7C4db1f097afcb4c95948f952ebf3da42d%7C0%7C0%7C636486883502099322&sdata=NrmS%2FQ%2BoTQu8wLBLCN1Jr6zK1WApmvjrK7hf19uhnlI%3D&reserved=0 )

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